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Ran a 10k - Official Thread (4 Viewers)

BassNBrew said:
Most definitely.  I love a few of them, as they feel directly related to what my approach has been since I got into this a bit five years ago. 

Consider the Stress of Everyday Life and Don't Overdo It seem directly related IMO, and even tie a bit into Be Realistic About Your Goals and Expectations and Don't Take it Too Seriously.  These four things have in essence formed the core of my approach.  I recognize that I'm a bit of an oddity in terms of likely being on the very low end of training mileage for running ultras, but it's been an approach that's been manageable for me from the perspective of needing to balance running with all other life obligations.  It's not easy to run 70-100 miles per week and balance that with full time employment, raising children, staying in touch with friends, and being a good spouse.  So I don't, and in peak training I'm still likely only in the 35-40 mile per week range with a focus on the weekend long run(s).  Could I find/make the time to run more?  I think so and hope to do so some day, but at this point in my life running more miles would likely be at the expense of sleep or one of the above things that I deem more important for myself and my family.  And because of that, I know I'm not going to be hitting the podium and setting course records.  (Nor will I ever be, no matter how much I train.  :no: )  And that's ok with me, because that's not what I'm in this for.  So I believe I'm mostly realistic in my goals and objectives and definitely don't take it too seriously, as I still don't consider myself a "runner." 

Be Progressive just makes too much sense.  Jumping from 5-10K's to 100 milers too quickly seems like a surefire way to put undue stress on your body.  I went from a spring 50K to a fall 50 miler, to a year off from ultras, to a spring 50 miler to a fall 100 mile.  So my 50K to 100 mile progression was over 2.5 years. 

As much as you are able, Prepare for the Technicality of the Course is no doubt excellent advice.  If you're able to train on the specific terrain (per the author, "soft, grassy, hard, or rocky"), then that will definitely aid you in getting dialed in for a race and better understanding what challenges that terrain may present physically, with gear, etc.  But I'd argue that training for the specificity of the course (flat, ascending, descending, hot, cold, at elevation, etc) is more important than what the terrain is.  If you're running a race with lots of vertical, then train as much vertical as you can.  If it's a hot course, try to heat train.  And I believe Duck has gone into some of the benefits of periodization, where you progress to the last phase where your training more mimics the race event.

Finally, working on physical, mental, and technical preparation to Train Each Element seems common sense.  Obviously the better prepared you are from a physical standpoint, the more you envision and prepare for how the race may play out and what challenges may fall throughout, and the better prepared you are for the technical/specificity of the course, the better your chances to succeed at that race are. 

So, I'm curious...did you hit that point during your race this weekend of "no effing way I'm signing up for another one of these" and if so, have you already figured out what 100 you're signing up for next? :lmao:   Whatever it may be, looking forward to it!

 
With the exception of #5 I think the same is mostly true for road running.  Self assessment and good planning are paramount to being successful, whatever your specific goals.

 
Not sure you guys ever get this, but I've got a case of the post-race blues. All of that build up to the race, and then it's all over. And now I'm getting antsy to run again but wanna be smart about it.

Just need to make it through this week and next with some easy runs and then start thinking about the relay race. Need to pick a fall race also.

 
Not sure you guys ever get this, but I've got a case of the post-race blues. All of that build up to the race, and then it's all over. And now I'm getting antsy to run again but wanna be smart about it.

Just need to make it through this week and next with some easy runs and then start thinking about the relay race. Need to pick a fall race also.
Never experienced it, but post-race depression isn't unusual.  Lots of helpful links out there for coping mechanisms, but if someone here's gone through it that may be a better resource.

 
I've been coping with beers in the garage and watching baseball. Unfortunately the Royals are depressing too.  :lol:
Isn't going to help now, but just an idea for next time - schedule a big race just before other events.  Maybe I'd be more susceptible to it had this not happened but my breakthrough half was just before a bachelor party weekend, first marathon was just before my brother-in-law's wedding weekend, and BQ marathon was just before taking our middle child to Disney. 

 
Not sure you guys ever get this, but I've got a case of the post-race blues. All of that build up to the race, and then it's all over. And now I'm getting antsy to run again but wanna be smart about it.

Just need to make it through this week and next with some easy runs and then start thinking about the relay race. Need to pick a fall race also.
Picking a fall race will help.  Then you can just view this period as a chance to run when you want, as far as you want, before you get to start another structured training block.

For me, I've got Boston next Monday, then a trail 50K on 5/11, our relay on 6/1, and a trail 13.1 on July 13.  I'll then relax and enjoy our 6 weeks of summer by our pool before I start training for Indy in late August.

 
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Not sure you guys ever get this, but I've got a case of the post-race blues. All of that build up to the race, and then it's all over. And now I'm getting antsy to run again but wanna be smart about it.

Just need to make it through this week and next with some easy runs and then start thinking about the relay race. Need to pick a fall race also.
I tend to get some version of this after each marathon.

 
Not sure you guys ever get this, but I've got a case of the post-race blues. All of that build up to the race, and then it's all over. And now I'm getting antsy to run again but wanna be smart about it.

Just need to make it through this week and next with some easy runs and then start thinking about the relay race. Need to pick a fall race also.
I don't get the blues, but it's certainly weird.

Part of it is if I'm not training everyday, I feel like not training at all.  Reduced mileage weeks make me think, "what's the point"?  

The other issue is nagging injuries.  During training, I try to manage them but keep plugging along.  When I'm "off", I feel like I should try to rest and get near 100% healthy.  But that might take months.

 
After a year of having a race every couple months, having a couple months off to just run when I wanted was really good for me. Made me look forward to this training cycle. 

 
BassNBrew said:
SayWhat hit on most of it already.  Some of it is just common sense, obviously.  But the fact that he starts out talking about how training fits in with the rest of your life is one that people obviously overlook a lot.  The body doesn't see a whole lot of difference between training stress or work stress or home stress.  This really gets to the core of a lot of Maffetone's philosophies.

The other piece is the specificity aspect, as SW also mentioned.  Surface, conditions, elevation, heat, even eating/drinking while experiencing those things should be practiced if at all possible.  But it's a weird thing with 100 milers, relative to the old adage "nothing new on race day".  The fact is you just can't replicate in training what you're going to feel like at mile 80.  You just can't practice that, until you're in the race environment.  But anything you can do to be prepared for the heat of the altitude or the downhills or whatever will have you in a better position to successfully navigate the "unknown".  And in long ultras, the unknown is going to come up and smack you at some point.

 
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Not sure you guys ever get this, but I've got a case of the post-race blues. All of that build up to the race, and then it's all over. And now I'm getting antsy to run again but wanna be smart about it.

Just need to make it through this week and next with some easy runs and then start thinking about the relay race. Need to pick a fall race also.
Super common.  I've had it last a couple of months.  Like others have said, nothing like signing up for another race to help shake it off.

I like this article, and not just because it includes the sentence "Post-race blues are like mid-run diarrhea: super common, but rarely talked about on Instagram."

 
After a year of having a race every couple months, having a couple months off to just run when I wanted was really good for me. Made me look forward to this training cycle. 
Agreed.  Jan-March, with a simple and singular commitment to decent (30+) mileage, has been a very beneficial stretch for me.  

 
Not sure you guys ever get this, but I've got a case of the post-race blues. All of that build up to the race, and then it's all over. And now I'm getting antsy to run again but wanna be smart about it.

Just need to make it through this week and next with some easy runs and then start thinking about the relay race. Need to pick a fall race also.
 Not to downplay the mental at all but really glad you’re feeling good physically.  

 
BassNBrew said:
Thanks guys.  Elementary stuff compared to Superior and Western States finishes.  Just glad to get past the 3 consecutive DNFs at this distance.  Other than some of the steep hills, Umstead is 100% runnable.  8000 ft of elevation gain is a picnic in your book.  Lack of training and being a fatass made it challenge.  The balls of my feet ended up blistering and made every step of the last 25 miles painful.  Not sure if that was lack of miles, shoes, or the cinders working their way through the socks.  I've got to figure that issue out.  

After the ride home and into today, I can't get around without my sticks.  Everyone is getting a kick out of seeing me hobble around.  The 15 foot trek from the couch to the bathroom is an adventure.
Frigging awesome bass.

And you even drafted during the race :)

 
What do you think about that Joe Friel trial at the end of the article?

If I would take a guess for me, those 20 minutes would have a heart rate average in the high 160s. 90% would be in the neighborhood of a 150 MAHR.  For most people in this thread my guess is it would result in a MAHR they normally wouldn’t exceed when not doing speed or tempo stuff.


Wouldn’t it be higher for you? You did a tempo March 1 and your heart rate was in the high 160s.  Your MAPR from his trial should be higher than mine.
Basically did this today, 169 so it looks like you're right. So 169 x .9 = 152 (hmm, I like this!) 

Or, use zones which conveniently just confirm what I've been thinking for a while now.

Run Zones          Your Zones

Zone 1 Less than 85% of LTHR        < 144

Zone 2 85% to 89% of LTHR      145 - 150.4 (I'll probably just keep it under 150, like I have been for years)

Zone 3 90% to 94% of LTHR      152 - 159

Zone 4 95% to 99% of LTHR      160 - 167

Zone 5a 100% to 102% of LTHR        169 - 172

Zone 5b 103% to 106% of LTHR        173 - 179

Zone 5c More than 106% of LTH > 180

 
Basically did this today, 169 so it looks like you're right. So 169 x .9 = 152 (hmm, I like this!) 

Or, use zones which conveniently just confirm what I've been thinking for a while now.

Run Zones          Your Zones

Zone 1 Less than 85% of LTHR        < 144

Zone 2 85% to 89% of LTHR      145 - 150.4 (I'll probably just keep it under 150, like I have been for years)

Zone 3 90% to 94% of LTHR      152 - 159

Zone 4 95% to 99% of LTHR      160 - 167

Zone 5a 100% to 102% of LTHR        169 - 172

Zone 5b 103% to 106% of LTHR        173 - 179

Zone 5c More than 106% of LTH > 180
I’ve never really bought into the idea that you have to run at these really low heart rates to get those aerobic gains.  McMillan has that zone go up to 3 hour 30 minute race pace and that intuitively makes sense to me.  

 
I’ve never really bought into the idea that you have to run at these really low heart rates to get those aerobic gains.  McMillan has that zone go up to 3 hour 30 minute race pace and that intuitively makes sense to me.  
Different schools of thought I suppose. All I know is I've done better since I started doing more of my runs in zone 2, or MAF. I get that these are different concepts (sort of), and lucho goes off on that, but they do essentially the same thing.  

There's definitely room for improvement so maybe I can stretch the zone a bit, but I actually like living most of the time in zone 2. 

 
I’ve never really bought into the idea that you have to run at these really low heart rates to get those aerobic gains.  McMillan has that zone go up to 3 hour 30 minute race pace and that intuitively makes sense to me.  
Jux...can you please expound on this (first sentence)?  And explain the last sentence in detail please.

 
Most definitely.  I love a few of them, as they feel directly related to what my approach has been since I got into this a bit five years ago. 

Consider the Stress of Everyday Life and Don't Overdo It seem directly related IMO, and even tie a bit into Be Realistic About Your Goals and Expectations and Don't Take it Too Seriously.  These four things have in essence formed the core of my approach.  I recognize that I'm a bit of an oddity in terms of likely being on the very low end of training mileage for running ultras, but it's been an approach that's been manageable for me from the perspective of needing to balance running with all other life obligations.  It's not easy to run 70-100 miles per week and balance that with full time employment, raising children, staying in touch with friends, and being a good spouse.  So I don't, and in peak training I'm still likely only in the 35-40 mile per week range with a focus on the weekend long run(s).  Could I find/make the time to run more?  I think so and hope to do so some day, but at this point in my life running more miles would likely be at the expense of sleep or one of the above things that I deem more important for myself and my family.  And because of that, I know I'm not going to be hitting the podium and setting course records.  (Nor will I ever be, no matter how much I train.  :no: )  And that's ok with me, because that's not what I'm in this for.  So I believe I'm mostly realistic in my goals and objectives and definitely don't take it too seriously, as I still don't consider myself a "runner." 

Be Progressive just makes too much sense.  Jumping from 5-10K's to 100 milers too quickly seems like a surefire way to put undue stress on your body.  I went from a spring 50K to a fall 50 miler, to a year off from ultras, to a spring 50 miler to a fall 100 mile.  So my 50K to 100 mile progression was over 2.5 years. 

As much as you are able, Prepare for the Technicality of the Course is no doubt excellent advice.  If you're able to train on the specific terrain (per the author, "soft, grassy, hard, or rocky"), then that will definitely aid you in getting dialed in for a race and better understanding what challenges that terrain may present physically, with gear, etc.  But I'd argue that training for the specificity of the course (flat, ascending, descending, hot, cold, at elevation, etc) is more important than what the terrain is.  If you're running a race with lots of vertical, then train as much vertical as you can.  If it's a hot course, try to heat train.  And I believe Duck has gone into some of the benefits of periodization, where you progress to the last phase where your training more mimics the race event.

Finally, working on physical, mental, and technical preparation to Train Each Element seems common sense.  Obviously the better prepared you are from a physical standpoint, the more you envision and prepare for how the race may play out and what challenges may fall throughout, and the better prepared you are for the technical/specificity of the course, the better your chances to succeed at that race are. 

So, I'm curious...did you hit that point during your race this weekend of "no effing way I'm signing up for another one of these" and if so, have you already figured out what 100 you're signing up for next? :lmao:   Whatever it may be, looking forward to it!
Thanks for the reply.  Honestly I didn't get much out of it and wanted a different take so I could read it again with different eyes.  Most trail runners I know aren't deciding on the distance or location of their run until they are heading down the road in their car and training days are wherever the mood strikes them being in the woods.  I see very little difference between guys like Juxt, Gru, and now Chief  (just to name a few) and the pros in many areas.  I see a world of difference between the average trail runner and the pro trail runner.

Actually I never hit that point this time.  The suffering this time was penance for not training once in January and still being overweight and some disappointment in still not having my gear dialed in. During the death march a light fog settled in so I turned off the tunes and listened to the woods come alive to pass the time and get my mind off my ####### feet. 

I've giving some consideration to Burning River this summer.  The heat concerns me.  I've also been dealing with back and hip pain for about a year so I need to see how I bounce back from this weekend.  Due to some trail closures they are changing the course from a point to point to an out and back this year only.  I despise the logistics of point to points.  Nothing worse than a race starting at 4am and having to catch a shuttle at 2:30am to get to the start line meaning you have to be up before 2am.

I also have an invite from Duck that I'm giving some consideration to.  This depends on the health issues being resolved and me being confident enough that I won't be a boat anchor.



 
Not that you have a basis of comparison anyway, but this burning river course should be harder. There's a break for about 10 miles in the middle, but otherwise it's primarily single track. Usual course is very tame to start with the vast majority of the technical stuff late, which does present it's own challenges. But with this out-and-back you'll have to do that stuff twice. 

 
Jux...can you please expound on this (first sentence)?  And explain the last sentence in detail please.
:popcorn:

Gian and I have had some talks about this. There's a number of articles and such about the benefits of slowing down during training/runs to go faster during races, etc. But there is some combination of it being more comfortable for me to run faster while also being for "fun/satisfying" to do so as well. I started doing this as motivation to just get healthier. But the "competition" side of it to see how much more I can do also is a very motivating factor to keep going. I want to have fun but also want to see how much more I can do that what I have so far. 

Sometimes it is easier to slow down, depending on how I feel. Sometimes it's just more fun to run a little faster. 

 
Good run this am.  As I mentioned before, a while back during this training plan I started running my easy runs to a specific HR (MAF) rather than a specific pace.  I would love to hear @Juxtatarot's take on MAF training but for me it has been interesting to experience as I've been trying it.

This morning, after a day off, I managed to run 5:25/km (8:42/mi) with an average HR of 134.  MAF for me is ~135 (180-age).  This is the fastest I've been able to run 10K while keeping my HR at aerobic levels.  

I still have nagging concerns about my overall endurance and my ability to run 42.2km but I'm definitely seeing gains at the shorter distances during training.

Now in Week 9 of my 15-week plan.  Haven't missed a run yet.  Really trying to get through the whole thing without missing one.  Fingers crossed for good health, weather, and motivation.

 
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Not that you have a basis of comparison anyway, but this burning river course should be harder. There's a break for about 10 miles in the middle, but otherwise it's primarily single track. Usual course is very tame to start with the vast majority of the technical stuff late, which does present it's own challenges. But with this out-and-back you'll have to do that stuff twice. 
Interesting and thanks for the thoughts.  I was thinking I was seeing some frequent short breaks in the single track as you connect from trail to trail.  Is that the case?  Even a few breaks can give you a chance to bank some time if the course gives you some road, fire road, or tow path.

 
Interesting and thanks for the thoughts.  I was thinking I was seeing some frequent short breaks in the single track as you connect from trail to trail.  Is that the case?  Even a few breaks can give you a chance to bank some time if the course gives you some road, fire road, or tow path.
I am not familiar with the first and last 12 miles of the race, but mile 12-14 and 86-88 coming back is towpath.  So is mile 27 and 73 coming back. There may also be a break around Hale Farm.  The trails around there are brutal, but looking at the map that may be road. But everything else between 14 and 44 then again from 57 to 86 is trail.  It isn't all single track in the woods, but it's all of the you must stay mentally locked in or you may turn an ankle variety.  Is it all runnable?  Just hope for a dry July.  But while that's optimal to slogging through mud your quads will take a beating.  There aren't any big climbs anywhere on the course (200' max), but shorter high grade inclines and declines covered in roots and rocks?  They're everywhere and at times one after another.  When you see stairs take them and power hike.  And don't go over the hidden cliff at mile 36.

 
:popcorn:

Gian and I have had some talks about this. There's a number of articles and such about the benefits of slowing down during training/runs to go faster during races, etc. But there is some combination of it being more comfortable for me to run faster while also being for "fun/satisfying" to do so as well. I started doing this as motivation to just get healthier. But the "competition" side of it to see how much more I can do also is a very motivating factor to keep going. I want to have fun but also want to see how much more I can do that what I have so far. 

Sometimes it is easier to slow down, depending on how I feel. Sometimes it's just more fun to run a little faster. 
I think for newer runners or runners coming off a period of inactivity there can be at least some, and potentially a lot of, benefit to going slow.  Maybe not THAT slow, but slow enough that you have to tell yourself to slow down.  I don't think it's necessarily effective for a vet though.  It's important to slow run, especially amidst a training cycle, but let your body and the weather determine your actual speed.  Sometimes my easy effort is in the mid-high 7's.  But I've also been as slow as > 10 minutes.

 
Jux...can you please expound on this (first sentence)?  And explain the last sentence in detail please.
I'm referring to McMillan's training zone graph.

His endurance zone goes up to 3:30 (3 hour thirty) race pace.  Meaning one could run up to the pace they could race for 3:30 at and still get those benefits. That's pretty fast.  

My main point is running slow is certainly important to gain endurance but "slow" can be a faster than people often think.  Not that it's bad to go slower.  It's just that runners sometimes feel frustrated because they have to go sooo sloooow and I think that can be unnecessary.  Listening to your body makes sense, as always.  If you feel like you're taking it on the easy side, you probably are.  But if you're pushing it a little, you're probably still OK.

@Zasada  I think the principles of MAF are true but one doesn't need to be a MAF disciple.  It also seems to me that his heart rate zone calculations can lead to zones lower than necessary for some people.

By the way, I 100% agree with what @MAC_32 wrote about newer and recently inactive runners.  

 
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:popcorn:

Gian and I have had some talks about this. There's a number of articles and such about the benefits of slowing down during training/runs to go faster during races, etc. But there is some combination of it being more comfortable for me to run faster while also being for "fun/satisfying" to do so as well. I started doing this as motivation to just get healthier. But the "competition" side of it to see how much more I can do also is a very motivating factor to keep going. I want to have fun but also want to see how much more I can do that what I have so far. 

Sometimes it is easier to slow down, depending on how I feel. Sometimes it's just more fun to run a little faster. 
The part of the ‘slow down’ stuff that works for me is that it lets me run more frequently and safely up volume. Easy runs on tired legs are fine albeit boring-er but they allow enough recovery for a harder run on tired legs a day or 2 later. Too many harder days in a row would push the fatigue over the edge and be counterproductive to me. I go something like 130ish HR for easy, long runs low 140s (fudged MAF) and workouts are whatever they end up at.  

 
This is what I'm finding as well. Over the previous few months, while not actively training, I found it harder to slow down. Most runs were pushing that gray area of not slow enough to stay fully aerobic but not fast enough to benefit.

Now, over the last 4 weeks, I find it much easier to really slow down.  It allows the legs to push on harder days and I make sure I'm doing fast days fast and slow days slow. Yesterday was easy to run close to 10 minute pace because it felt good to do so. 

 
This is what I'm finding as well. Over the previous few months, while not actively training, I found it harder to slow down. Most runs were pushing that gray area of not slow enough to stay fully aerobic but not fast enough to benefit.

Now, over the last 4 weeks, I find it much easier to really slow down.  It allows the legs to push on harder days and I make sure I'm doing fast days fast and slow days slow. Yesterday was easy to run close to 10 minute pace because it felt good to do so. 
This is normal no matter your fitness.  I was fresh in February coming off of weeks of mileage in the 26-32 mpw range and was routinely churning out runs around 7 flat.  My mpw increased to 35-40 over that 4 week stretch.  Then when I took the jump to 40-45 and increasing the long runs beyond 75 mins as I have over the last 4 weeks my range has widened.  Now I'm working hard to stay in the 7 minute range and my slow days are into the 8's, sometimes well into the 8's.

 
This hip thing is annoying. Doesn't seem to be a true "injury", just a nagging, slight pain. Sunday was a normal day off. Took Monday off as well even though it was feeling much better. Went out today and it was fine for about 3 miles, then kind of starting poking at me. Not too bad but just enough for me to notice. 

 
Hey good new for all of you guys on the cusp of qualifying for Boston!  Previously unbeknownst to me until I read this article, the Boston Marathon has apparently caved and is allowing transgender males to "identify" and qualify/run as females.  Voilà....30 extra minutes!

I can't tell you how much this stuff frosts my a$$....  :rant: :hot:  

 
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gruecd said:
Hey good new for all of you guys on the cusp of qualifying for Boston!  Previously unbeknownst to me until I read this article, the Boston Marathon has apparently caved and is allowing transgender males to "identify" and qualify/run as females.  Voilà....30 extra minutes!

I can't tell you how much this stuff frosts my a$$....  :rant: :hot:  
This is my ticket in! I was already mistaken for a female at the end of my half-marathon by the race announcer. See you in 2020 @gruecd.

 
gruecd said:
Hey good new for all of you guys on the cusp of qualifying for Boston!  Previously unbeknownst to me until I read this article, the Boston Marathon has apparently caved and is allowing transgender males to "identify" and qualify/run as females.  Voilà....30 extra minutes!

I can't tell you how much this stuff frosts my a$$....  :rant: :hot:  
I'm going to turn this into a movie.  So far, I have the title.  'Transmission'.

 

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