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RB Christian McCaffrey, SF (3 Viewers)

Rookie_Whisperer said:
"In his most recent mock draft, ESPN's Todd McShay projected Stanford RB Christian McCaffrey to the Eagles at No. 14.
McCaffrey impressed in both athletic testing and drills at the NFL Scouting Combine several weeks ago. He has seen a subsequent ascension in his draft stock. Indeed, McShay's mock actually has him jumping over FSU RB Dalvin Cook, whom the analyst pegs to the Redskins at No. 17. McShay believes that McCaffrey's "elite character" could serve as a tiebreaker for some teams when deciding between Cook and C-Mac."
 
I'm just wondering when "elite character" moved the chains, broke tackles, outran defenders, or moved piles....This is probably the least important trait for a RB.  RBs are typically knuckleheads or at least you have a 50/50 chance of being one.  AP = knucklehead.  Leveon Bell = knucklehead.  Chris Johnson = knucklehead. Zeke Elliot = knucklehead.  Who are the elite character NFL RBs?  Their names escape me right now...... 
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Rookie_Whisperer said:
That man had elite speed. McCaffrey does not.  I agree that availability is a skill set and knucklehead behavior sometimes limits that availability, but production matters when a guy takes the field.  My point is that being a knucklehead goes with the position more times than not.  Elite character does not equal "can't miss" at the RB position. I know a lot of good guys, but that doesn't mean they can break tackles, run a 4.35, or move a pile of large men to ensure another set of downs.  
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Rookie_Whisperer said:
Those guys are WRs, and I agree that character matters much more for WRs. WRs have a number of considerations when evaluating them as players; character, work ethic, coachability, and chemistry with the QB are very important.  And David Johnson is a nice kid but he's also 224 lbs. Size does matter in today's NFL, and DJ has that size and skill set to be an every down runner.
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Rookie_Whisperer said:
224 lbs vs 202 lbs.  Johnson is also a converted WR. Maybe McCaffrey converts to WR, in which case I will like him more.

BTW, you don't move a pile of men with character, you move it with mass and strength.
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I am confused why you seem to be focusing on this "elite character" thing as if it was listed as his primary strength when the reality is that it was just listed as a tiebreaker.  All he was saying is that if teams have Cook/McCaffrey ranked similarly than the character difference may be a reason why they ultimately decide on McCaffrey.

It's doubly odd that you seem to be focusing on how it doesn't make up for 25lbs of size when the player it was referenced as a tiebreaker with weighs a whopping 8lbs more than McCaffrey.

 
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FreeBaGeL said:
I am confused why you seem to be focusing on this "elite character" thing as if it was listed as his primary strength when the reality is that it was just listed as a tiebreaker.  All he was saying is that if teams have Cook/McCaffrey ranked similarly than the character difference may be a reason why they ultimately decide on McCaffrey.

It's doubly odd that you seem to be focusing on how it doesn't make up for 25lbs of size when the player it was referenced as a tiebreaker with weighs a whopping 8lbs more than McCaffrey.
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I'm not in love with Dalvin Cook for the same reasons if he actually weighs in at 202 lbs and still runs the 40 around 4.5, but "elite character" is not really relevant when discussing potential RB production for fantasy football purposes and has never been a topic of conversation when factoring RB ranks until McCaffrey, unless I am mistaken....Again, this is why I asked who the elite character Rbs are out there. Johnson gets mentioned today but that was certainly not something mentioned in fantasy circles two years ago, and I was as high on DJ as anyone out there. I overvalued him and landed him in 6 of my 10 leagues. (you can see what I thought about DJ on pages 2 and 3 of David Johnson's thread if you are curious, but Rotoworld hated the guy while they were pimping 199 lb Ellington....called DJ an H back or some kind of garbage at the time)  And it's safe to say his production is what gets him ranked where he is today, not character.

 
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Rookie_Whisperer said:
224 lbs vs 202 lbs.  Johnson is also a converted WR. Maybe McCaffrey converts to WR, in which case I will like him more.

BTW, you don't move a pile of men with character, you move it with mass and strength.
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The idea is to avoid piles by identifying a seam and exploding through it.  "Getting skinny" going through the line is a lot more valuable than running into a scrum.  McCaffrey was very solid between the tackles at Stanford, in case you weren't aware.  I'd have to assume by your comments that you aren't.

 
Bronco Billy said:
The idea is to avoid piles by identifying a seam and exploding through it.  "Getting skinny" going through the line is a lot more valuable than running into a scrum.  McCaffrey was very solid between the tackles at Stanford, in case you weren't aware.  I'd have to assume by your comments that you aren't.
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I am very aware.  Thanks.  This isn't NCAA.

 
Bronco Billy said:
I had to ask.  Your comments give the impression that you are basing your judgment on his weight alone.  One can't help but think you are not familiar with his play in the least.
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Size matters for every down RBs. If he is going to fill the Dion Lewis, Darren Sproles, Woodhead, scatback role, his size is fine and his production will likely be inline with those RBs. Use the guy in space and leave the early down work to the big boys.

 
Rookie_Whisperer said:
Size matters for every down RBs. If he is going to fill the Dion Lewis, Darren Sproles, Woodhead, scatback role, his size is fine and his production will likely be inline with those RBs. Use the guy in space and leave the early down work to the big boys.
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If he puts on 6 lbs he'd be the exact same height/weight as Terrell Davis - and TD always got lighter as the season wore on.   I guess TD wouldn't qualify as anything but a scatback per your criteria.

 
Bronco Billy said:
That isn't what I said, is it?  You can always tell how weak a person's position is by how quickly they'll throw up strawmen.
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Haha...ok....Show me all of the productive 5'11" / 202 lb RBs who run around 4.5 w/o pads in the past 10 years.  McCaffrey had 2 months to prep for the combine and add weight. He ended up at 202. And that weight is good for his frame. Not good for an NFL RB, but good for his frame.

 
Rookie_Whisperer said:
Haha...ok....Show me all of the productive 5'11" / 202 lb RBs who run around 4.5 w/o pads in the past 10 years.  McCaffrey had 2 months to prep for the combine and add weight. He ended up at 202. And that weight is good for his frame. Not good for an NFL RB, but good for his frame.
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First you bring up "high character" as an issue, which lets be clear, it is not.  Then you ask for guys who are high character guys that have been productive, we all say DJ basically, and yet you change your argument to size/weight.  Be clear from the get go.  

There's not a single person in this thread that hasn't seen the argument made about what McCaffrey's role will be.  Some say he can add weight and sacrifice some of his quickness/speed for power, some say he's best suited for a passing down role.  But literally everyone has said his minimum role is roughly 10-15 touches a game.  So what exactly are you saying? 

 
Zyphros said:
There's not a single person in this thread that hasn't seen the argument made about what McCaffrey's role will be.  Some say he can add weight and sacrifice some of his quickness/speed for power, some say he's best suited for a passing down role.  But literally everyone has said his minimum role is roughly 10-15 touches a game.  So what exactly are you saying? 
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He's 100% invested in McCaffrey being incapable of anything more meaningful than a distance & downs guy.

 
I feel like you're going off of the rails here @Rookie_Whisperer . You okay man?

I don't think anyone is going crazy about the "high character" thing. It was just a blurb about being used as a potential tie breaker. 

And I don't think there's too many people calling him some amazing between the tackles thumper. Most people seem to be high on him because he appears to be good enough running the ball but an excellent pass catcher. If he gets 10-12 carries for 40 yards and 5-7 catches for 40 yards every game that's a 1280 yard season. Those realistic numbers and makes him a good RB (depending on TDs and PPR). 

 
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In terms of what his game in the NFL would be, I would draw a parallel to Jamaal Charles.

I don't think he's as fast or has the same vision, but a similar game.  Great receiver, and ran the ball inside a lot.  

 
Zyphros said:
First you bring up "high character" as an issue, which lets be clear, it is not.  Then you ask for guys who are high character guys that have been productive, we all say DJ basically, and yet you change your argument to size/weight.  Be clear from the get go.  

There's not a single person in this thread that hasn't seen the argument made about what McCaffrey's role will be.  Some say he can add weight and sacrifice some of his quickness/speed for power, some say he's best suited for a passing down role.  But literally everyone has said his minimum role is roughly 10-15 touches a game.  So what exactly are you saying? 
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Thanks, it's not and I am not altering my argument or position at all.  My posts have been very clear on previous pages that he is being overvalued as a fantasy asset and elite character doesn't move the needle.

I will say however, the only landing spot I might like him would be KC with Andy Reid. He has demonstrated on a number of occasions he knows how to maximize players with roughly his size and skill set. RB isn't a priority for KC and his draft position is likely too high to get him, but that would be an ideal scenario for him. 

 
Rookie_Whisperer said:
Thanks, it's not and I am not altering my argument or position at all.  My posts have been very clear on previous pages that he is being overvalued as a fantasy asset and elite character doesn't move the needle.

I will say however, the only landing spot I might like him would be KC with Andy Reid. He has demonstrated on a number of occasions he knows how to maximize players with roughly his size and skill set. RB isn't a priority for KC and his draft position is likely too high to get him, but that would be an ideal scenario for him. 
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Dude, I get what you're saying. You see all these people saying he's their top rookie RB, or that they're trying to trade up to get him and like me you don't agree because you see him as a niche, change of pace, committee back. Nothing wrong with that, as I believe it will play out that way.

 
Rookie_Whisperer said:
Bad example. Ray Rice was pretty effective for 4 seasons. McCaffrey and most RBs dream of that kind of production.  If I thought he would turn out to be Ray Rice in terms of production, I would buy him in a heartbeat!
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Which is especially funny because he weighed in at 195lbs at the combine and ran a 40 somewhere in the 4.45 - 4.49 range, which you basically said is impossible to ever amount to a feature back or fantasy stud.

 
Rookie_Whisperer said:
I'm not in love with Dalvin Cook for the same reasons if he actually weighs in at 202 lbs and still runs the 40 around 4.5, but "elite character" is not really relevant when discussing potential RB production for fantasy football purposes and has never been a topic of conversation when factoring RB ranks until McCaffrey, unless I am mistaken....Again, this is why I asked who the elite character Rbs are out there. Johnson gets mentioned today but that was certainly not something mentioned in fantasy circles two years ago, and I was as high on DJ as anyone out there. I overvalued him and landed him in 6 of my 10 leagues. (you can see what I thought about DJ on pages 2 and 3 of David Johnson's thread if you are curious, but Rotoworld hated the guy while they were pimping 199 lb Ellington....called DJ an H back or some kind of garbage at the time)  And it's safe to say his production is what gets him ranked where he is today, not character.
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:lmao:

YOU are the one who brought up the elite character stuff, quoting an article where someone mentioned it as a minor point and a tiebreaker in a discussion that had nothing to do with fantasy football, then started arguing with yourself about it.

This is one of the most bizarre exchanges I've ever seen.  It's not even a straw man.  It's something beyond that.  You made up an argument yourself out of thin air, then went full on double strawman about your own made-up argument.  It's like an imaginary double reverse straw-man self-argument.  That's uncharted territory so.....congrats on that, I guess.

 
Most people seem to have McCaffrey in the top 5 fantasy rookies.  If he goes to a good team (Philly or TB) and Fournette goes to Jax and Dalvin to Carolina, where would you guys rank him?

I'd probably still have him 5th behind the top 2 WRs and Fournette/Cook, but I'd be tempted to move him up.  Jax has o-line and run scheme issues (shotgun vs QB under center) and Carolina has Cam, the TD vulture.

 
FreeBaGeL said:
:lmao:

YOU are the one who brought up the elite character stuff, quoting an article where someone mentioned it as a minor point and a tiebreaker in a discussion that had nothing to do with fantasy football, then started arguing with yourself about it.

This is one of the most bizarre exchanges I've ever seen.  It's not even a straw man.  It's something beyond that.  You made up an argument yourself out of thin air, then went full on double strawman about your own made-up argument.  It's like an imaginary double reverse straw-man self-argument.  That's uncharted territory so.....congrats on that, I guess.
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This.

 
FreeBaGeL said:
:lmao:

YOU are the one who brought up the elite character stuff, quoting an article where someone mentioned it as a minor point and a tiebreaker in a discussion that had nothing to do with fantasy football, then started arguing with yourself about it.

This is one of the most bizarre exchanges I've ever seen.  It's not even a straw man.  It's something beyond that.  You made up an argument yourself out of thin air, then went full on double strawman about your own made-up argument.  It's like an imaginary double reverse straw-man self-argument.  That's uncharted territory so.....congrats on that, I guess.
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No, someone posted rotoworld, and I critiqued the need for elite character.  Others countered my criticism (maybe you didn't but others did. Have someone read them to you if necessary) and you came to defend McCaffrey again right on cue. I realize you can't help yourself, and that's ok.  McCaffrey's weaknesses are not masked by "elite character". 

 
FreeBaGeL said:
Which is especially funny because he weighed in at 195lbs at the combine and ran a 40 somewhere in the 4.45 - 4.49 range, which you basically said is impossible to ever amount to a feature back or fantasy stud.
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Did I say that?  Show me where.  What is his height? Any clue? What weight did he actually play at when he took over full time duties?  He and Mojo were very similar to me in that they played like bowling balls between the tackles because their center of gravity was much lower. Both of those guys carried most of their weight in their legs.

Anyway, I find this undying devotion to this guy hilarious.  Keep up the good work!  You just might talk him up to guys in my leagues.  If so, thank you in advance.  Seriously.  :thumbup:

 
Rookie_Whisperer said:
No, someone posted rotoworld, and I critiqued the need for elite character.  Others countered my criticism (maybe you didn't but others did. Have someone read them to you if necessary) and you came to defend McCaffrey again right on cue. I realize you can't help yourself, and that's ok.  McCaffrey's weaknesses are not masked by "elite character". 
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As far as I can tell (but maybe some one can re-read the last few pages to me) this is what happened:

Todd McShay said, in support of his mock draft, that some teams may break a tie between McCaffrey and Cook by looking at their characters and you then spent a page and a half arguing with ???? (no one?) how elite character has no business in fantasy football evaluations - a position that not one person took (including the Rotoworld blurb that set you off).

 
Dr. Octopus said:
As far as I can tell (but maybe some one can re-read the last few pages to me) this is what happened:

Todd McShay said, in support of his mock draft, that some teams may break a tie between McCaffrey and Cook by looking at their characters and you then spent a page and a half arguing with ???? (no one?) how elite character has no business in fantasy football evaluations - a position that not one person took (including the Rotoworld blurb that set you off).
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Borden and Zyphros chimed in, but hey, don't let that interrupt your narrative....I'm sorry you can't read man, whatever....

 
Rookie_Whisperer said:
Borden and Zyphros chimed in, but hey, don't let that interrupt your narrative....I'm sorry you can't read man, whatever....
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You may want to go back and re-read what they said. Borden in particular was only offering an explanation of what McShay was saying (i.e.why character may matter to NFL teams in their evaluation process).

And here is what Zyphos said. Nothing eveb close to what you are claiming:

I think boxing it as position specific you're setting yourself for failure.  Most guys at skills positions are diva personalities.  There's always exceptions.  Marvin Harrison and Amari Cooper at WR come to mind off the top of my head.  I could be wrong but isn't David Johnson considered to have great character?  The thing you don't have to worry about is them not putting the time in.  That's pretty valuable when an organization is paying 10's of millions of dollars.  That's the whole reason why Mixon is the discussion of the year.  
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You turned it into something waaaayyyy more than that. No one thinks that McCaffrey will be a fantasy stud RB because he's never beat up a woman.

 
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Dr. Octopus said:
You may want to go back and re-read what they said. Borden in particular was only offering an explanation of what McShay was saying (i.e.why character may matter to NFL teams in their evaluation process). You turned it into something waaaayyyy more than that. No one thinks that McCaffrey will be a fantasy stud RB because he's never beat up a woman.
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Now that is a bizarre statement.

 
Rhythmdoctor said:
Let's discuss some of the ideal landing spots. 

GB, IND... do we like PHI?
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I stated this thought in the GB thread:  If McCaffrey lands in GB you might have a D-proof offense.  With Cobb, Montgomery, and McCaffrey you'd have 3 guys on the field that can line up in the backfield, in the slot, or out wide.  GB could run almost any formation and play without changing out personnel.  Those 3 sharing carries would allow for 30 rushes a game without killing any of them.  Ds couldn't sub out when they find themselves mismatched.  Scary.

I'd hate it if he went to NE because I really like the kid and would have to root against him.  Hate to see him in CHI or DET for the same reason, but both spots would mean big numbers for him I think.  

DEN is a great spot and pairing him with Anderson would give them the backfield they hoped for when they drafted Booker.  NO would be an awesome spot for him.  SD would be great for him.  PHI would certainly be interesting.  TB would definitely be interesting.  KC and Reid coaching would be an almost ideal spot.

 
Rhythmdoctor said:
Let's discuss some of the ideal landing spots. 

GB, IND... do we like PHI?
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I'd see Philly as a plus since they are running the Reid offense that made similar guys like Westbrook* and Charles* successful.

* not claiming McCaffrey is as good as Charles or even Westbrook yet (proactive disclaimer to nip straw man arguments in the butt)

 
Bronco Billy said:
I stated this thought in the GB thread:  If McCaffrey lands in GB you might have a D-proof offense.  With Cobb, Montgomery, and McCaffrey you'd have 3 guys on the field that can line up in the backfield, in the slot, or out wide.  GB could run almost any formation and play without changing out personnel.  Those 3 sharing carries would allow for 30 rushes a game without killing any of them.  Ds couldn't sub out when they find themselves mismatched.  Scary.

I'd hate it if he went to NE because I really like the kid and would have to root against him.  Hate to see him in CHI or DET for the same reason, but both spots would mean big numbers for him I think.  

DEN is a great spot and pairing him with Anderson would give them the backfield they hoped for when they drafted Booker.  NO would be an awesome spot for him.  SD would be great for him.  PHI would certainly be interesting.  TB would definitely be interesting.  KC and Reid coaching would be an almost ideal spot.
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Only if/when NE trades w/ NO to get back in the early parts would this be an option. All NE RB's are FA after the 17 season, so that's an interesting side note. 

I would think that GB needs help on the D side more than McCaffrey. 

My lead horse in the 1st would be TB, followed by KC in the late portion. PHI is an option as well  and I see IND still in some sort of patchwork at RB for 17. 

 
Rhythmdoctor said:
Let's discuss some of the ideal landing spots. 

GB, IND... do we like PHI?
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GB it kind of makes sense but then they have a upgraded version of Ty. I don't think CMC is a true RB that they need though. If I were GB I'd be looking for more of a grinder to close out games. 

Philly, I know they loaded up for Wentz but it feels more like they need a feature back that could take over games. I don't believe that as of right now Wentz and the passing game are so elite that don't need a feature back. 

Indy, needs a lot of help in other positions. CMC is a luxury pick, IMO, and the Colts need to shore up too many other positions. IF he does go there, it's a pretty good fit. 

***

I see McCaffery as a rotational back that bumps to the slot. He's a high down percentage guy. Carolina and Seattle are to really good spots because you can go single back then bump CMac out wide. So as a defense what do you do? On paper they have a 1 back, 1 TE set. But now CMac is out wide and the TE is Graham/Olsen. You have empty set against nickel. The LBs have to commit to the pass and the QB should be able to get an easy 5. Or go split backs with Lacy/Stewart and you can flex out to a 3 wide set against a base D. 

I could go on and on but I think that gets my point across. 

 
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