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RB Clyde Edwards-Helaire, NO (1 Viewer)

Wooters said:
CEH= Darrell Henderson with 40 more receptions.  Just sayin'.  Taylor>>>>>>>>>>>>CEH.  Shouldn't even be debateable.
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Their games are nothing alike. Roughly the same size, that’s about it.

 
ffmail4me said:
He went 2.4 in a PPR dynasty startup I'm in right now. Ahead of Chubb, Jacobs, DJ Moore, Evans...
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Hey man, in my start up dynasty, I made some moves and had 1.1 and 1.8 and took him at 1.8.  I'm more than happy and excited with this.  Go BIG

 
I've only done light reading on CEH so forgive me if I'm way off but am I wrong with saying he's slow, not a 3-down back and not great in short yardage situations?  If those claims are accurate then that's a scary prospect in my eyes.  I know a pass catching back in KC has significant appeal but those three issues are bound to be a deterrent to his overall fantasy success and longevity, no?  I feel JT is a safer pick and has just as much of a chance at the same ceiling.

 
ffguru56 said:
I've only done light reading on CEH so forgive me if I'm way off but am I wrong with saying he's slow, not a 3-down back and not great in short yardage situations?  If those claims are accurate then that's a scary prospect in my eyes.  I know a pass catching back in KC has significant appeal but those three issues are bound to be a deterrent to his overall fantasy success and longevity, no?  I feel JT is a safer pick and has just as much of a chance at the same ceiling.
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Define slow. Long speed...adequate but not world beating. He’s quick, fast in small spaces and has ankle breaking lateral ability. He’s probably not going to be a 300 carry back but he can most certainly be a 200 carry, 80 catch guy. 

 
Repeat after me, "There is no such thing as a three down back in today's NFL. There is no such thing as a three down back in today's NFL."

Is there a "primary back"? Absolutely. But guys are going to constantly rotate. Question is, what is the primary back going to be able to do in the 2/3 or so he grabs in the timeshare?

The answer for CEH is: Destroy.

 
Dr. BD said:
Right now I tend to agree. 

The value for CEH is in the targets. A target is worth about 3.4 or so carries for fantasy purposes, so it's easy to see why people like CEH there. 

I see JT as a guy who can be involved in the passing game. The narrative was Swift would be a ppr stud and Taylor was a good runner and never got receptions. Except Taylor accounted for more of his teams receptions (10%) than Swift (9.4%). So the fallacy that Taylor wasnt involved, or cant be a receiving back is just plain wrong. Taylor is definitely capable of being used on all 3 downs, whereas CEH has some questions there (but probably stands to get many more targets in general). IMO Taylor is the better fantasy back long term, but talk to me tomorrow and see if that changes 
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That's exactly how I feel and, for that reason, have JT ranked ahead of CEH.  However, I also feel I can be persuaded to reverse those rankings. 

 
ffguru56 said:
I've only done light reading on CEH so forgive me if I'm way off but am I wrong with saying he's slow, not a 3-down back and not great in short yardage situations?  If those claims are accurate then that's a scary prospect in my eyes.  I know a pass catching back in KC has significant appeal but those three issues are bound to be a deterrent to his overall fantasy success and longevity, no?  I feel JT is a safer pick and has just as much of a chance at the same ceiling.
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Elway?  Is that you?  Reid still not taking your calls huh?

 
ffguru56 said:
I've only done light reading on CEH so forgive me if I'm way off but am I wrong with saying he's slow, not a 3-down back and not great in short yardage situations?  If those claims are accurate then that's a scary prospect in my eyes.  I know a pass catching back in KC has significant appeal but those three issues are bound to be a deterrent to his overall fantasy success and longevity, no?  I feel JT is a safer pick and has just as much of a chance at the same ceiling.
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Who's saying any of that nonsense?  Yes, he lacks long speed, but he's got that Maurice Jones-Drew lower body to power up the middle in short yardage situations and makes defenders look silly in tight spaces.

And those hands?  Butter.

 
ffguru56 said:
I've only done light reading on CEH so forgive me if I'm way off but am I wrong with saying he's slow, not a 3-down back and not great in short yardage situations?  If those claims are accurate then that's a scary prospect in my eyes.  I know a pass catching back in KC has significant appeal but those three issues are bound to be a deterrent to his overall fantasy success and longevity, no?  I feel JT is a safer pick and has just as much of a chance at the same ceiling.
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Last year CEH had 20 carries on 3rd and short (3 or less), which was tied for the 21st most in college football, and he converted them at a better-than-average rate (and also at a rate that was better than other LSU ballcarriers).

 
Dr. BD said:
What is interesting to me is a lot of guys gushing over his lateral agility, route running, hands, etc weren't saying this stuff 3 months, or even 3 weeks ago. It's his landing spot that gets everyone loving these things that havent changed since these guys had him ranked RB5 on their lists just 3 months ago. 

Put CEH on the Colts and I'm not sure hes even in the 1.01 conversation. That's telling IMO. Situations change on a dime. Hes tied to Mahomes for 5 years, but just 2 years ago Gurley looked like a good long term bet in the rams offense. In fact, all rams looked like dynasty buys.

To each their own; not trying to start a debate, just found it interesting that once he was a chief he suddenly had elite lateral agility, hands, etc. (some have been saying it for a while, but this bandwagon, fan club, future support group- whatever you want to call it- certainly got bigger all of a sudden)
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That just means that the masses finally caught up.

 
Dr. BD said:
What is interesting to me is a lot of guys gushing over his lateral agility, route running, hands, etc weren't saying this stuff 3 months, or even 3 weeks ago. It's his landing spot that gets everyone loving these things that havent changed since these guys had him ranked RB5 on their lists just 3 months ago. 

Put CEH on the Colts and I'm not sure hes even in the 1.01 conversation. That's telling IMO. Situations change on a dime. Hes tied to Mahomes for 5 years, but just 2 years ago Gurley looked like a good long term bet in the rams offense. In fact, all rams looked like dynasty buys.

To each their own; not trying to start a debate, just found it interesting that once he was a chief he suddenly had elite lateral agility, hands, etc. (some have been saying it for a while, but this bandwagon, fan club, future support group- whatever you want to call it- certainly got bigger all of a sudden)
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Of course it got bigger. He was the first RB off the board. It’s not like he was the 5th back taken and went to the Chiefs. He was the 1st back, in the 1st round. Chiefs had their pick of anyone and they took him. 

 
Dr. BD said:
What is interesting to me is a lot of guys gushing over his lateral agility, route running, hands, etc weren't saying this stuff 3 months, or even 3 weeks ago. It's his landing spot that gets everyone loving these things that havent changed since these guys had him ranked RB5 on their lists just 3 months ago.

Put CEH on the Colts and I'm not sure hes even in the 1.01 conversation. That's telling IMO. Situations change on a dime. Hes tied to Mahomes for 5 years, but just 2 years ago Gurley looked like a good long term bet in the rams offense. In fact, all rams looked like dynasty buys.

To each their own; not trying to start a debate, just found it interesting that once he was a chief he suddenly had elite lateral agility, hands, etc. (some have been saying it for a while, but this bandwagon, fan club, future support group- whatever you want to call it- certainly got bigger all of a sudden)
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I agree with you totally about the bolded. His talent evaluation seemed to change within the fantasy community the instant he went to the Chiefs.

What I don't agree with is totally overlooking the situation. With running backs, you're essentially stuck with their first situation because the returns for even a twenty-six year-old in the pros are revealing and startling. Guys are getting cut or signed to one year off of their rookie deals. That's industry practice right now. If they're blocked, chances are you won't see them for over a year, and even then will only really get two years on average out of them at peak performance. CEH has a pretty clean path other than in pass protection to getting meaningful touches in fantasy.

But sometimes talent or perceived lack of should rule the day and you should trade out of the consensus 1.01 for someone of value elsewhere. ;) (I'll be eating those words in that offense, for sure, won't I?)
 
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Dr. BD said:
yeah I've heard that one quite a bit. That carries more weight with some than others based on my recon
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How so? Genuinely curious. We might be on the same page. The GM has done all the talking, down to the Andy Reid hearsay about Westbrook. Might not be who Andy wanted? 

 
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Dr. BD said:
More on other forums and other sources, maybe I've seen it here too- one of the things some tend to fall back on as their be all end all argument is that KC could have picked anyone, he was the only 1st round rb, etc. I mean, technically that's all true and cant be debated, but it doesnt mean CEH was the highest on every teams board. It's used often as the "debate ender."
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Very salient point. It is not the end-all be-all argument stopper. You're right about scheme and need. I thought you might have heard something through sources or something like that. The Chiefs thought he was number one. All that means is something tautological; the Chiefs thought he was number one so all we can rightfully infer (in the proper sense of the term) is that the Chiefs had him as the best running back for their scheme and what they want to do. You can't really say anything about the other teams.

One thing I heard posed but no questions answered. Why were other teams supposedly ripping up their draft projections over the selection? Did they want Helaire? What's the scoop on that, I wonder? 

The only organization that strikes me as this happening to is Detroit, because I haven't seen them really have any sort of concrete plan for anything, which is lamented often in their homer thread. 

 
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People are getting hung up on receptions, etc....a huge factor that seems to be getting overlooked IMO.... is how often he will be in the red zone compared to other backs....Indy WILL have a QB change in the next year or two....its a given....(I think sooner rather than later because I feel Rivers is done)....but anyway....those 6 points for one play add up.....you need 60 yards to make up for every time CEH falls over the goal line...Chiefs will be in the red zone a bunch....not sure how much more than IND over the next 5 years, but I will go on a limb and say a bunch....

 
Dr. BD said:
I dont think this actually did happen... It was rumored, but I havent seen anything to confirm. It's also possible teams ripped up their boards because it was pick 32, end of the first round, new projections tomorrow AM. Also, when did teams downgrade to paper? didnt most teams have at least 1 laptop (Giants) or a giant white board (Gruden)

Is it a given CEH gets goal line carries? 
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I meant metaphorically, as did the writer of the piece I read in SI. There was no literal paper shredding. 

 
Dr. BD said:
I dont think this actually did happen... It was rumored, but I havent seen anything to confirm. It's also possible teams ripped up their boards because it was pick 32, end of the first round, new projections tomorrow AM. Also, when did teams downgrade to paper? didnt most teams have at least 1 laptop (Giants) or a giant white board (Gruden)

Is it a given CEH gets goal line carries? I asked this before and didnt get an answer, or the answer I was given was he was the first rb off the board. 
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Not sure if you asked me this question or not....is it a given he gets goal line...?....hell I don’t know...but i know he is probably there for at least 5 years with Mahomes and Reid and I think they will be in the red zone a bunch and I have seen some KC backs get love in the red zone and at the goal line...and they took him as a first round RB....I’m not good at math but I know about opportunity and I think the opportunity will be there....I’ll ask you do you think KC will not like him at the goal line...?....I’ve said earlier in this thread that the immediate return in year one may not be the separation  that people want when they spend a 1.01....but dude is in a position to put up a ton of fantasy points.....if you think his skill set sniffs Dwilly.....he seems like a slam dunk for me

 
Dr. BD said:
I see. Thanks. 

I'm not trying to just crap on this guy. I tend to bring up negatives in everyone to see what substance people can say to refute my concerns. Without rookie minicamps it's been tough to figure out more than what we had prior to the draft or on draft night
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Yeah, I know you're not trying to crap on him. You've been pretty even-handed. I'm also not trying to crap on him; I'm just less sold on him as a professional football player than others are, though I'm leaving myself a lot of limb to climb back on if I'm wrong. I didn't leave myself a lot of wiggle room by action, but I don't want to be dogmatic about him on the board. People get it after a while and it gets old. 

 
Dr. BD said:
He seems to fit a specific role for KC. At this point I dont know if its GL or not. I'd say not if I had to pick today. Going forward we have no idea what happens in 2021... maybe DWill resigns. Maybe they bring in someone else. Maybe they spend a 2nd day pick on a RB. Who knows. I don't think it's absolutely certain right now that he sits DWill down or that KC doesn't go committee. I don't think anyone knows, or that its certain at all. 

He has the highest draft capital of any RB on the team, so that bodes well
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A lot of the maybe’s could be said about almost anybody not named Cmac, Zeke, or Barkley....

Dwilly is a “solid” fit....not Hunt perfect/solid....but solid....where is CEH in that spectrum....?...maybe not Hunt but better than Dwilly.....?...and to me the only downside is that I think Dwilly likes where he is at enough to sign on the cheap to stay after this year even if it is as a second fiddle....think about it....if you are Dwilly, are you going to go somewhere else to another offense that fits your game like KC does....do you want Super Bowls....?...at his age and talent level is somebody really going to give him that much more to wanna leave....I think KC is in a good spot to keep Dwilly around as an above average back up for the way they play.....and he could stay on the cheap.....so I think that could hurt CEH....heck Thompson is still around too....I’m not sure KC cares about draft capital because Mahomes stirs the drink....he was on board with the CEH pick, but with the culture they have there, it wasn’t a slap in the face to Dwilly, it was just “lets get another dawg”.....the thing is ...if I played dynasty and had 1.01 and there is no slam dunk 1.01 like a Barkley or Elliot....I’d roll with talent and opportunity and I think CEH opportunity (on this team) moving forward gives him the nod...his talent isn’t anything to sneeze at either....

 
I think my biggest issue is if I am going to draft an RB at 1.01 in dynasty I want them to be elite physically (Taylor) and have proven receiving ability (CEH). Unfortunately the two qualities are divided between the top options this year which makes it challenging. 

 
MY INTERNAL DEBATE

Taylor

+ : Good draft capital, great organization (fan of Ballard), great skill to team fit, great oline, elite physical makeup, incredible college production

- : Unproven receiving ability, Colts implement 3rd down receiving back

n : Neutral on competition for primary carries as I would project Mack being gone after this season 

CEH

+ : Great draft capital, great organization, great skill to team fit, great route running and receiving ability, competed in best college conference

- : Does not have elite physical makeup, one great season of production on an historical offense, more of the makeup to share more of the load than Taylor IMO

VERDICT: Seems to me on paper Taylor gets the edge.  

 
I honestly don’t think you can go wrong with either. Do you want Kamara or do you want Zeke? Not necessarily saying these two are those two but you get the point. I’m more a Kamara guy. 

 
Dr. BD said:
+ Taylor has a 3 year resume of dominance incredible college production

- CEH was a no one until Burrow/LSU blew up with a dynamic offense; is he a product of that? one great season of production on an historical offense

+ CEH is going to another dynamic offense great skill to team fit
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Agree

 
It is difficult in dynasty.  Today I'd lean CEH.  Though I was extremely high on Taylor and think he'll be a stud on the Colts.  

Redraft wise:  I worry he'll go too high for me to get many shares.  He'll have some big games, but I think Williams is still a major factor for at least this season.  RB careers are so short.  Williams has played so well for KC.  It makes too much sense to let Williams have a big chunk of the work to ease the transition on CEH.  

Williams on the flip side may be an interesting value play later.

 
Dr. BD said:
+ Taylor has a 3 year resume of dominance

- CEH was a no one until Burrow/LSU blew up with a dynamic offense; is he a product of that? 

+ CEH is going to another dynamic offense
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Or was Burrow a no one until CEH blew up with a dynamic offense?  🤷🏼‍♂️

 
For me it is easy.  I had CEH as my #1 RB target as I have a late round pick and knew Taylor would be gone.  I think CEH is an MJD clone and will have similar success.  I had this view before the draft so him going to KC really just made it impossible for me to get him now. 

As far as all the talk about him not being a workhorse or short yardage back I think that is somewhat less important with the type of offense KC runs.  He will get plenty of touches and opportunities and even in short yardage defenses still have to be concerned about Mahomes and the pass so it is different than standard.  I don't think those are concerns because of the style of play and landing spot.  Regardless I has extremely high on CEH before the draft and his landing spot just solidifies that belief.

 
Gally said:
For me it is easy.  I had CEH as my #1 RB target as I have a late round pick and knew Taylor would be gone.  I think CEH is an MJD clone and will have similar success.  I had this view before the draft so him going to KC really just made it impossible for me to get him now. 

As far as all the talk about him not being a workhorse or short yardage back I think that is somewhat less important with the type of offense KC runs.  He will get plenty of touches and opportunities and even in short yardage defenses still have to be concerned about Mahomes and the pass so it is different than standard.  I don't think those are concerns because of the style of play and landing spot.  Regardless I has extremely high on CEH before the draft and his landing spot just solidifies that belief.
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With the amount of hours my brain has spent debating on who should be the 1.01 I could have learned a new language. But instead, I am now dumber than I was before I started.

 
Gally said:
For me it is easy.  I had CEH as my #1 RB target as I have a late round pick and knew Taylor would be gone.  I think CEH is an MJD clone and will have similar success.  I had this view before the draft so him going to KC really just made it impossible for me to get him now. 

As far as all the talk about him not being a workhorse or short yardage back I think that is somewhat less important with the type of offense KC runs.  He will get plenty of touches and opportunities and even in short yardage defenses still have to be concerned about Mahomes and the pass so it is different than standard.  I don't think those are concerns because of the style of play and landing spot.  Regardless I has extremely high on CEH before the draft and his landing spot just solidifies that belief.
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Exactly this and it's why I really don't like ranking rookies before the draft.  You tend to get locked into a line of thinking.  The results of the draft- how high they went and where they went- is crucial information and having a nearly complete opinion prior to receiving that info seems harmful.

All CHE getting scooped by KC did for me is prevent me from being able to get him in a bunch of leagues.  I was none too pleased when the pick came in, though it was validating at least to receive confirmation that my evaluation was on point.

 
Vandelay said:
Exactly this and it's why I really don't like ranking rookies before the draft.  You tend to get locked into a line of thinking.  The results of the draft- how high they went and where they went- is crucial information and having a nearly complete opinion prior to receiving that info seems harmful.

All CHE getting scooped by KC did for me is prevent me from being able to get him in a bunch of leagues.  I was none too pleased when the pick came in, though it was validating at least to receive confirmation that my evaluation was on point.
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I actually think the opposite.  If you can complete your evaluations of players independent of landing spot then you shouldn't get overly swayed because they landed in a good spot.  It can accentuate their value (as it has done for me and CEH) but if you didn't like CEH before the draft it shouldn't vault him to the top if you trust your evaluations of him. 

Landing spots should have some solidifying of your belief but it shouldn't change it completely.

 
Gally said:
I actually think the opposite.  If you can complete your evaluations of players independent of landing spot then you shouldn't get overly swayed because they landed in a good spot.  It can accentuate their value (as it has done for me and CEH) but if you didn't like CEH before the draft it shouldn't vault him to the top if you trust your evaluations of him. 

Landing spots should have some solidifying of your belief but it shouldn't change it completely.
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I personally don’t trust my evaluations of anyone and not sure anyone else outside of a small subset of people should be either.

 
Tool said:
I personally don’t trust my evaluations of anyone and not sure anyone else outside of a small subset of people should be either.
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Why not?  I am not saying I am always right but the point of doing this is to come up with evaluations and play on them.  How else do you get bragging rights when you get it right?  That's half the fun.   If you aren't willing to do that you might as well not do any research and just pull the latest cheat sheet of the interwebz five minutes before the draft.

 
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