It's good intel whereas you are here providing a bunch of bogus rumors grounded in nothing. I'd just take the L if I was you and move on.
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RB Kendre Miller, NO (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter Faust
- Start date
Understood, sometimes people change their minds but points taken.
JohnnyU
Footballguy
I said previously you might be right, but I'm thinking from a business perspective of the Saints. To me it makes more sense to trade him. No, I'm not taking the "L" just yet. More likely, as others have said, maybe no one wants him. I don't belive that, but if that is the case, then that's the reason he won't be traded, not because of how important he is to the Saints at this stage of his career.
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I agree and I already did mention that the only way he'd be traded was if he changed his mind so I think that should be assumed I'm not saying it's not possible. Just not where he's at right now and we only got about 3 weeks left.
zamboni
Footballguy
I also don't see Kamara being traded for many of the reasons stated above. I guess he could fill in a solid pass catching role for a KC, but I don't see them or any other team forking over that kind of money for him. In any case, NFL trades are more frequent than they used to be, but still fairly rare.
But since this thread is about Miller, seems like he's really starting to get it and looks good out there. Wouldn't surprise me if Moore continued to give him more touches to see what they have in him for next year. The team is much more competitive than most of the football community thought, so game scripts are not working against Miller thus far for the most part.
But since this thread is about Miller, seems like he's really starting to get it and looks good out there. Wouldn't surprise me if Moore continued to give him more touches to see what they have in him for next year. The team is much more competitive than most of the football community thought, so game scripts are not working against Miller thus far for the most part.
Hu-Tang Clan
Footballguy
From what I can gather from this thread these seem to be the reasons for Kamara not being traded:
1) Player does not want to be traded
2) Contract does not make trading the player economically viable
3) Compensation for trading away a older player is negligible and also see points #1 and #2 above
1) Player does not want to be traded
2) Contract does not make trading the player economically viable
3) Compensation for trading away a older player is negligible and also see points #1 and #2 above
Please drop the back and forth shots at each other and keep it 100% on football.
zamboni
Footballguy
Straight from the coach’s mouth. Really seems to like Kendre and will be a meaningful part of the RB rotation:
rockaction
Footballguy
I ran the numbers, which is what I was trying to add, but I'm not sure of my own accuracy so i won't go into it.
zamboni
Footballguy
Getting closer to even:
he’s really starting to come into his own, and is strong hold in dynasty.
massraider
Footballguy
The End.
KellysHeroes
Footballguy
I think teams will be more interested in trading for Breece than Kamara
not to hijack, but do you think the dysfunctional jets would deal him? Stupid not to, but it’s the Jets
rockaction
Footballguy
I don't think the Jets will pay him, and his contract is up so they might trade him. There's been a lot of smoke this year without the fire. The problem for the Jets now is that they didn't deal him earlier because they are simply the worst team in football, and the only other players besides Breece who the fans might tune in for—guys who are as good as at heir respective position as Breece is at his are: Sauce Gardner at CB, Quinnen Williams at DI, immediately and surprisingly Armand Membou at RT, and Garrett Wilson at WR. The Jets don't have much except for the few of these guys who are both talented and perform well relative to others in the league at their positions. There is just nothing on this team,
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Doug B
Footballguy
Trading older vets is a common topic of conversation on Saints fan boards. Pros and cons line up gamely for the debate. Almost every time, the conclusion winds up that the Saints simply can't take the cap hit.
rockaction
Footballguy
Alvin Kamara Cap Numbers
This is Over The Cap and Spotrac numbers for Kamara if he were to be traded this year. You can skip the text and scroll to the bottom but the explanation is in the body of this. That’s where I show my work. I hope this is accurate. All numbers are rounded and approximate. Enjoy!
If you want to know how much cap savings the Saints will realize if they trade Kamara, you have to know this works. I crash coursed it. First of all, we should say what expenditures are included and counted when figuring out the cap. We count yearly salaries of the year we are in, all guaranteed salaries in the future, any agreed-upon restructured contractual provisions, and pro-rated bonuses. We count things paid to the players as consideration for playing football.
As far as the NFL goes, there are two types of trades for salary cap accounting purposes: pre-June 1st trades and post-June 1st trades.
It is a weird date, but the difference between the before and after is in the accounting and when the future contractual obligations a franchise has counts against your allotted cap space. Pre-June 1st trades of a player require you to report all of your future guaranteed obligations to him—all of his guaranteed salary, his pro-rated bonuses, and any future dollars owed from contract restructuring—and you must realize them, or we can say they go into effect, in the current NFL year, which runs from mid-March to the next year in mid-March, which is the beginning of the new NFL year.
This pre-June 1st designation means that if you trade a player in May 2025 then all future obligations from the contract count against your cap total—a total you must be in compliance with by mid-March of 2026. You would have to either be under the cap by that amount, or you would have to offset these expenditures to get under the maximum amount of expenditures.
If it is a post-June 1st trade you can spread the obligations out over the current year and the next year. You would calculate this year’s cap liabilities in the player's contract and account for those for this year, with an eye on compliance by March 2026. Once you do this, then you calculate the entirety of the other future guarantees, bonuses, and restructuring dollars and you must realize and account for all of these, with a requirement of compliance for those particular ones by mid-March of 2027.
So how does Kamara’s contract work with the cap? What is he getting paid and when?
Well, in 2025. the Saints pay Kamara $2.99M as a base salary (for ease we will round that up to $3M) and that salary is fully guaranteed per his contract. He has a pro-rated signing bonus of $3.1M every year until 2028. He also restructured his contract in both 2022 and 2023, and he is owed $3.9M in 2025, $4M in 2026 and $1.9 M in 2027 due to this.
So If they trade him with a Post-June 1st designation, they have commitments whereby even if he’s not on their roster, they must account for those expenditures to the league. All current and future guarantees count in determining how much you have spent against the cap. So in this case, we have that aforementioned $3M in guaranteed base salary in 2025 and we are also on the hook for around $7M in singing bonuses and restructuring—two things they now call “dead cap,” since the player is no longer on the roster. Add the guaranteed salary and dead cap together and the Saints have a cap liability of $10M in 2025.
In addition to those obligations, the Saints have to account for all future obligations by the next year. So there is $3.1M for each year of his pro-rated signing bonuses promised him from ‘26-‘28 for $9.3M total (3.1 x 3 years, and a restructuring of $4M in 2026 and $1.9M in 2027. We add these together and we have $15.2M in “dead cap” for a total cap liability of $15.2M for 2026 that we must offset or have cap room for by mid-March 2027.
So what would the savings be if the Saints traded him vs. retaining him?
Well, the Saints guaranteed Kamara’s salary in 2025 for the amount of $2.99M. We add all of it (it is not pro-rated) to the current cap expenditures number, and we also add the $7M in signing bonuses and restructures due this year (that is the $3.1M pro-rated signing bonus paid in 2025 added to the $3.9M that was the restructure amount paid in 2025). That $10M is your cap obligation for 2025. Since current year salaries count against the cap in full without being pro-rated, you count the full $3M and the $7M in deferrals you made, and you do not decrease your cap amount in 2025 by trading him. The number here is 0. There are zero savings against the cap—the Saints' obligations to the cap are equal to the full amount of consideration owed in 2025.
But the Saints will get a pro-rated credit against their cap liabilities for 2026 for the amount that the acquiring team pays his salary. That would be $2M, give or take some. Remember that for the end.
So let us turn to the second year. If the Saints hold Kamara on their roster, they will have an $18.6M cap liability in 2026. That comes from $11.5M in salary, the $3.1M prorated portion of the signing bonus for 2026, and the $4M for the restructured obligation in ‘26.
The Saints cap hit is different in 2026 if they trade him. They would not be obligated to pay the $11.5M salary, as it was not guaranteed and is now up to the other club to deal with. But the Saints would have to account for all future obligations in 2026. Therefore, we have to look at the $3.1M owed for each year from ‘26-‘28 ($3.1M x 3 years = $9.3M) and also the ‘26 and ‘27 restructured dollar amounts owed ($4M + $1.9M = $5.9M). This gives you $9.3M+$5.9M, or, $15.2M in "dead cap" and total salary cap liability. $15.2M is the post-June 1st cap hit for 2026.
So then we take the $18.6M we would have had to count against the cap if tje Saints retained Kamara and we compare it with the $15.2M the Saints would be responsible for if they traded him and you cansee that the Saints would have been repsonsbie for $3.4M more if they retain Kamara rather than trading him. They would have decreased their number, or “saved” $3.4 against the cap. And then they get the pro-rata portion of the salary they didn’t have to pay in 2025. So what are we left with in the way of savings?
When all is said and done, if the Saints trade Alvin Kamara before the deadline this season (2025):
They would save nothing against the cap in 2025.
They would decrease their cap liability by $5.4M in 2026.
They would no longer be on the hook against the cap for anything regarding Alvin Kamara in 2027 and 2028, so that would save them $8.1M in 2027.
Therefore, if the Saints trade Alvin Kamara, they will save a total of $13.5M against the cap, a savings that would begin in 2026.
Sources:
https://www.spotrac.com/nfl/player/_/id/21809/alvin-kamara (this is the link to Sportrac)
https://overthecap.com/player/alvin-kamara/5653 (this is Over the Cap)
You’ll note both these sites have drop down menus or scissors where you can select what happens when you designate the action a post-June 1st trade. That’s pretty key to do.
This is Over The Cap and Spotrac numbers for Kamara if he were to be traded this year. You can skip the text and scroll to the bottom but the explanation is in the body of this. That’s where I show my work. I hope this is accurate. All numbers are rounded and approximate. Enjoy!
If you want to know how much cap savings the Saints will realize if they trade Kamara, you have to know this works. I crash coursed it. First of all, we should say what expenditures are included and counted when figuring out the cap. We count yearly salaries of the year we are in, all guaranteed salaries in the future, any agreed-upon restructured contractual provisions, and pro-rated bonuses. We count things paid to the players as consideration for playing football.
As far as the NFL goes, there are two types of trades for salary cap accounting purposes: pre-June 1st trades and post-June 1st trades.
It is a weird date, but the difference between the before and after is in the accounting and when the future contractual obligations a franchise has counts against your allotted cap space. Pre-June 1st trades of a player require you to report all of your future guaranteed obligations to him—all of his guaranteed salary, his pro-rated bonuses, and any future dollars owed from contract restructuring—and you must realize them, or we can say they go into effect, in the current NFL year, which runs from mid-March to the next year in mid-March, which is the beginning of the new NFL year.
This pre-June 1st designation means that if you trade a player in May 2025 then all future obligations from the contract count against your cap total—a total you must be in compliance with by mid-March of 2026. You would have to either be under the cap by that amount, or you would have to offset these expenditures to get under the maximum amount of expenditures.
If it is a post-June 1st trade you can spread the obligations out over the current year and the next year. You would calculate this year’s cap liabilities in the player's contract and account for those for this year, with an eye on compliance by March 2026. Once you do this, then you calculate the entirety of the other future guarantees, bonuses, and restructuring dollars and you must realize and account for all of these, with a requirement of compliance for those particular ones by mid-March of 2027.
So how does Kamara’s contract work with the cap? What is he getting paid and when?
Well, in 2025. the Saints pay Kamara $2.99M as a base salary (for ease we will round that up to $3M) and that salary is fully guaranteed per his contract. He has a pro-rated signing bonus of $3.1M every year until 2028. He also restructured his contract in both 2022 and 2023, and he is owed $3.9M in 2025, $4M in 2026 and $1.9 M in 2027 due to this.
So If they trade him with a Post-June 1st designation, they have commitments whereby even if he’s not on their roster, they must account for those expenditures to the league. All current and future guarantees count in determining how much you have spent against the cap. So in this case, we have that aforementioned $3M in guaranteed base salary in 2025 and we are also on the hook for around $7M in singing bonuses and restructuring—two things they now call “dead cap,” since the player is no longer on the roster. Add the guaranteed salary and dead cap together and the Saints have a cap liability of $10M in 2025.
In addition to those obligations, the Saints have to account for all future obligations by the next year. So there is $3.1M for each year of his pro-rated signing bonuses promised him from ‘26-‘28 for $9.3M total (3.1 x 3 years, and a restructuring of $4M in 2026 and $1.9M in 2027. We add these together and we have $15.2M in “dead cap” for a total cap liability of $15.2M for 2026 that we must offset or have cap room for by mid-March 2027.
So what would the savings be if the Saints traded him vs. retaining him?
Well, the Saints guaranteed Kamara’s salary in 2025 for the amount of $2.99M. We add all of it (it is not pro-rated) to the current cap expenditures number, and we also add the $7M in signing bonuses and restructures due this year (that is the $3.1M pro-rated signing bonus paid in 2025 added to the $3.9M that was the restructure amount paid in 2025). That $10M is your cap obligation for 2025. Since current year salaries count against the cap in full without being pro-rated, you count the full $3M and the $7M in deferrals you made, and you do not decrease your cap amount in 2025 by trading him. The number here is 0. There are zero savings against the cap—the Saints' obligations to the cap are equal to the full amount of consideration owed in 2025.
But the Saints will get a pro-rated credit against their cap liabilities for 2026 for the amount that the acquiring team pays his salary. That would be $2M, give or take some. Remember that for the end.
So let us turn to the second year. If the Saints hold Kamara on their roster, they will have an $18.6M cap liability in 2026. That comes from $11.5M in salary, the $3.1M prorated portion of the signing bonus for 2026, and the $4M for the restructured obligation in ‘26.
The Saints cap hit is different in 2026 if they trade him. They would not be obligated to pay the $11.5M salary, as it was not guaranteed and is now up to the other club to deal with. But the Saints would have to account for all future obligations in 2026. Therefore, we have to look at the $3.1M owed for each year from ‘26-‘28 ($3.1M x 3 years = $9.3M) and also the ‘26 and ‘27 restructured dollar amounts owed ($4M + $1.9M = $5.9M). This gives you $9.3M+$5.9M, or, $15.2M in "dead cap" and total salary cap liability. $15.2M is the post-June 1st cap hit for 2026.
So then we take the $18.6M we would have had to count against the cap if tje Saints retained Kamara and we compare it with the $15.2M the Saints would be responsible for if they traded him and you cansee that the Saints would have been repsonsbie for $3.4M more if they retain Kamara rather than trading him. They would have decreased their number, or “saved” $3.4 against the cap. And then they get the pro-rata portion of the salary they didn’t have to pay in 2025. So what are we left with in the way of savings?
When all is said and done, if the Saints trade Alvin Kamara before the deadline this season (2025):
They would save nothing against the cap in 2025.
They would decrease their cap liability by $5.4M in 2026.
They would no longer be on the hook against the cap for anything regarding Alvin Kamara in 2027 and 2028, so that would save them $8.1M in 2027.
Therefore, if the Saints trade Alvin Kamara, they will save a total of $13.5M against the cap, a savings that would begin in 2026.
Sources:
https://www.spotrac.com/nfl/player/_/id/21809/alvin-kamara (this is the link to Sportrac)
https://overthecap.com/player/alvin-kamara/5653 (this is Over the Cap)
You’ll note both these sites have drop down menus or scissors where you can select what happens when you designate the action a post-June 1st trade. That’s pretty key to do.
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zamboni
Footballguy
Good stuff, rock. I think the cap situation is probably not the big issue, as teams will make it work if they want to. The bigger question is whether another team wants Kamara enough at this stage given the financial commitment they would owe to him. I guess with all the RB injuries, it only takes one contending team that thinks he can really help them.
rockaction
Footballguy
Thanks! I respectfully disagree that the cap is not important. It’s killing the Saints. I’m not worried about whether the other teams can afford it—the real issue is can the Saints save a boatload trading Kamara?
It doesn’t seem like it. There isn’t much there. They still might trade him, and it might be a touch tempting but they will get, if somebody faints, a 3rd. That’s the sky highest. They’ll likely get a 4th or 5th and that would be a boon.
So I doubt they do it. But one never knows.
zamboni
Footballguy
I would agree the cap is important, but one thing I've learned over the years - and many sharp fantasy pundits often echo this - is that the cap can become workable on both sides if a team wants a player that much. Every team has no shortage of eggheads that can make the accounting work. It just takes two teams to tango.
Jayrod
Footballguy
The biggest detractor, IMO, to the idea of moving Kamara is the idea that he doesn't WANT to play anywhere else. If it will take some work to make it happen and costs on both sides, 2 teams aren't even going to put in the effort if the concept of going to another team is dead in the water with the player in question. You see it a lot in the NBA where what the player wants ends up dictating quite a bit of the activity because if a player doesn't want to play (and doesn't need the money) it is a fool's errand to make the deal. Even without a "no-trade clause" (not sure those even exist in the NFL) players can essentially enforce the concept by openly declaring they don't want to or even won't play for another team.
rockaction
Footballguy
Oh yeah, I personally haven’t given that short shrift at all. Kamara doesn’t seem to want to leave (yet) and they don’t really seem to want him to go. The Saints have a PR mess on their hands recently with a bad team, few players to root for, and the team giving the Catholic Church their PR department to use to handle the priest abuse scandal for the archdiocese of New Orleans. It’s been a bad year for the Saints.
I ran the numbers to see what they’d save just to edify my own opinion.
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Doug B
Footballguy
Just as an aside: These do exist in the NFL. Derek Carr had one in his New Orleans contract. The upshot is that trades need the player's buy-in and permission, so trades of players with "no-trade" clauses still happen.
I fully expected when I woke up today I'd see a news report that the Chargers had acquired a RB, but not Kamara.
RenegadeRoy
Footballguy
Does Kamara want to play for the Saints or does he want to win a championship? He might love the Saints but he has maybe 2-3 seasons left (at the very least as a starter) and he might want to get a ring before he hangs it up. I think that would be a way for him to "amicably" leave NO.
Lansdowne
Footballguy
Assuming this is Kamara we’re talking about, he could in theory but the Chiefs don’t have the cap space to take him on (under $3 million currently). Their RB room will continue to be a heaping helping of Pacheco and Hunt with a dash of the rookie Smith.
rockaction
Footballguy
There a few comments I’d like to make. I see what you’re saying but I think at some point it becomes really important to a player to stick with one club and just sort of feel that local feel and attachment for the rest of one’s life. Not everybody wants a championship solely for the wining of a championship. Some guys don’t care when they take all of their lives in stock. Some guys are utopians and only want one with their team, or if not their team, their brothers. There are just a bunch of reasons.
If you are a little more hardened in what you believe, there’s a very serious money issue. Kamara is due $11.5M next year as a salary. I would submit to you that the only prayer he has at seeing an amount even close to that is if he plays off of owner/GM/fan sentiment and stays in New Orleans. Right now, as far as rushing goes, Kendre is better. It’s not disparate enough to earn Kendre the job, but the writing seems to be on the wall but for the always unsteady feeling of Kendre’s health.
Anyway, just some thoughts. Money usually is the sticking point and what talks the loudest. Contenders, listen up!
That’s his base this year and they’re only on the hook for a pro-rated amount, I’m sure. Then they deal with next year when they get there, but that’s the rub. Kamara probably ain’t leaving without a nice guarantee that next year’s $11.5M gets paid out to him in some way.
Lansdowne
Footballguy
I personally value them as Fannin > Miller > Taylor, with Miller having the highest ceiling (contingent on Kamara moving on) and Fannin the most well-insulated asset (reminds me of Chris Cooley).
As a Tuten/Miller holder in multiple leagues, I feel personally attacked.This "Alvin Kamara moving on" talk is kind of reminding me of the "when Etienne gets traded from JAX" talk in the preseason.
ETA: As a Bigsby/Tuten investor, call me bitter.
Jewell
Footballguy
Well, to be fair to the people who predicted that one of the Jaguars running backs would be moved — they were right.This "Alvin Kamara moving on" talk is kind of reminding me of the "when Etienne gets traded from JAX" talk in the preseason.
ETA: As a Bigsby/Tuten investor, call me bitter.
The people who thought it would be Etienne just picked the wrong back.
Lansdowne
Footballguy
Yeah, and I personally don't see it as far as Kamara getting moved. The Saints signed him to an extension last year, he wants to retire a Saint, and Saints management is delusional enough to continue operating as if they're still in a contention window when they need to rebuild. If Kamara doesn't want to leave and the Saints don't want him to go then he's not going anywhere. At that point it would take injury or suspension for Kamara to miss time.This "Alvin Kamara moving on" talk is kind of reminding me of the "when Etienne gets traded from JAX" talk in the preseason.
ETA: As a Bigsby/Tuten investor, call me bitter.
Chaka
Footballguy
Agreed. Miller seems more like an Allgeier ATM, where he has some, limited standalone value but, it's going to take an injury to see him elevated to true relevance.Yeah, and I personally don't see it as far as Kamara getting moved. The Saints signed him to an extension last year, he wants to retire a Saint, and Saints management is delusional enough to continue operating as if they're still in a contention window when they need to rebuild. If Kamara doesn't want to leave and the Saints don't want him to go then he's not going anywhere. At that point it would take injury or suspension for Kamara to miss time.This "Alvin Kamara moving on" talk is kind of reminding me of the "when Etienne gets traded from JAX" talk in the preseason.
ETA: As a Bigsby/Tuten investor, call me bitter.
Still, he seems like one of the better lottery tickets out there.
zamboni
Footballguy
To that end, Kamara hurt his ankle in practice today and was limited. May be nothing, but something to keep an eye on.
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zamboni
Footballguy
Feeling the same way, but there’s always the possibility that Kamara gets a reduced role if his ankle is bothering him. In other words, Alvin will get 25 touches this week.
Lansdowne
Footballguy
This is my feeling on it too. Plus this wouldn't be a good week to start Miller anyway: the Pats defense hasn't allowed a RB to go above 49 rushing yards so far this season, the only team to do so. That includes guys like Jeanty, Achane, Warren, Hubbard and Cook.
Yup you never know.
Also, once an older guy breaks the injury seal it sometimes can spiral.
