Restaurants have gotten so expensive……also recycling and phone apps (2 Viewers)

[The Z Machine]

I would love to understand how those tips are pooled and split, especially to the cook staff. It feels that with the uptick in prices and the uptick in tipping expectations, that the back of the house is not likely getting commensurate increases in pay.

 

[Ilov80s]

Well yeah I pointed out that if you are in a financial hardship, I understand that.

And sometimes, with lower tippers, it's not financial hardship at all.

I waited tables in the mid-1990s, and there was an ongoing shift at the time from 15% to 20% as a general tipping percentage for competent service. Most customers middle aged or older typically tipped 15% as a starting point, commonly rounding up to the next dollar or an extra dollar or two tacked on above that. We all loved getting ~20% tips (and occasionally better!), but no one ever treated 20% as a minimum tip to "feel good about". 15% was fine ... no snarky comments in the side station, no "eff those people -- I hooked them up!" letdown.

Anyway ... point is: Sometimes, people come from a different time or place, and tipping that extra couple dollars just feels out of line. Whether they can afford it or not. That was true in the 1990s, and is still true now.

No doubt. My parents were like that. I’ve sort of retrained them to be a bit more generous. I don’t think they even realized servers are making like $2 an hour many places. My parents aren’t cheap, they just came from a different time and place, never thought it.

It is clearly a generational thing. Recently we have taken my mom and various family members out to lunch several times and my wife and I usually will cover the bill. When the tab comes up at $350 or so and we throw down a $70-$75 dollar tip, my mom about falls over. I hear about it for weeks about why did we tip so much.

My daughter gets 10.50 an hour plus tips, so not a bad gig compared to the 2.01 days.

Yep, that sounds familiar. My parents also can't believe how expensive "nice" restaurants are or what all the weird foods/ingredients are. We go to an Italian place and if they don't have just plain old spaghetti, my dad thinks it is some kind of outrage.

 

[Chemical X]

up next, cover charges….

I can't remember the last place I went that had a cover charge.

interestingly enough, italy has a cover charge but no tipping culture at all. cover is literally for the bread and table cloth. makes eating out affordable since i am not expected to essentially buy an uneaten full meal. they love the americans, cause we still tip even when it isn’t expected. they are more than thrilled if you just top up to an even amount. if it’s $62.37 and you leave $65, they get downright weepy.

 

[The Z Machine]

up next, cover charges….

I can't remember the last place I went that had a cover charge.

interestingly enough, italy has a cover charge but no tipping culture at all. cover is literally for the bread and table cloth. makes eating out affordable since i am not expected to essentially buy an uneaten full meal. they love the americans, cause we still tip even when it isn’t expected. they are more than thrilled if you just top up to an even amount. if it’s $62.37 and you leave $65, they get downright weepy.

This is the way

 

[massraider]

I would love to understand how those tips are pooled and split, especially to the cook staff.

They're not. The same way factory workers don't get part of the salesmen's commission.

It is illegal for a restaurant to dictate what happens to tips. Tips are not the owners' money. They never were. (This is law, not really debatable). Owners paid the kitchen staff a normal hourly wage, and were able to underpay waitstaff, because of tips. Staff share tips among the other front-facing service staff (bussers, runners, etc.)

In the article above, Danny Meyer said how much he hated Saturday nights, where the staff was celebrating a great night, but kitchen staff had to work hard for their ordinary wage. Danny forgot to mention the quiet Sunday/Monday nights, or the bad weather nights, when the place was empty, and staff made $2.00 an hour to stand around, whole the kitchen staff made their normal hourly wage.

 

[Judge Smails]

Took a customer for a quick lunch today at Subway. Two footlong sandwiches, each with chips and fountain drink and it was $37. I know we're long gone from the $5 footlong days, but wow.

Wined and dined em, eh? Close the deal?

 

[The Gator]

Well yeah I pointed out that if you are in a financial hardship, I understand that.

And sometimes, with lower tippers, it's not financial hardship at all.

I waited tables in the mid-1990s, and there was an ongoing shift at the time from 15% to 20% as a general tipping percentage for competent service. Most customers middle aged or older typically tipped 15% as a starting point, commonly rounding up to the next dollar or an extra dollar or two tacked on above that. We all loved getting ~20% tips (and occasionally better!), but no one ever treated 20% as a minimum tip to "feel good about". 15% was fine ... no snarky comments in the side station, no "eff those people -- I hooked them up!" letdown.

Anyway ... point is: Sometimes, people come from a different time or place, and tipping that extra couple dollars just feels out of line. Whether they can afford it or not. That was true in the 1990s, and is still true now.

No doubt. My parents were like that. I’ve sort of retrained them to be a bit more generous. I don’t think they even realized servers are making like $2 an hour many places. My parents aren’t cheap, they just came from a different time and place, never thought it.

It is clearly a generational thing. Recently we have taken my mom and various family members out to lunch several times and my wife and I usually will cover the bill. When the tab comes up at $350 or so and we throw down a $70-$75 dollar tip, my mom about falls over. I hear about it for weeks about why did we tip so much.

My daughter gets 10.50 an hour plus tips, so not a bad gig compared to the 2.01 days.

Yup. On big dinners with my parents, I never let them leave the tip. The old man's tips don't scale past 10-15% regardless of amount spent on dinner.

 

[Stoneworker]

Obviously, the older folks grew up and dined out in a different tipping culture. Not all of them are going to adjust.

During the 1950s, people commonly tipped 10% of the bill. By the 1970s and 1980s, that percentage had jumped to 15%. In 2023, people typically tip anywhere from 15% to 25%. - Source: CNBC

 

[dkp993]

up next, cover charges….

I can't remember the last place I went that had a cover charge.

Last time I dealt with cover charges I was charging them.

 

[dkp993]

I would love to understand how those tips are pooled and split, especially to the cook staff. It feels that with the uptick in prices and the uptick in tipping expectations, that the back of the house is not likely getting commensurate increases in pay.

My kitchen teams are making significantly more then prior to COVID. But that’s true of almost every position on our teams. We’ve had really good years since the world opened back up and multiple raises a year have been the norm.

 

[Vanilla Guerrilla]

Obviously, the older folks grew up and dined out in a different tipping culture. Not all of them are going to adjust.

During the 1950s, people commonly tipped 10% of the bill. By the 1970s and 1980s, that percentage had jumped to 15%. In 2023, people typically tip anywhere from 15% to 25%. - Source: CNBC

Now that dad is retired, he tips people like he's F'n Sinatra. When I was a kid, he'd get the 3 months of free cable, then tell my sister and I he cancelled it because we weren't getting our chores done around 75 days or so. Not super relevant, but wanted to share.

 

[pollardsvision]

How do you suggest changing the system?

Danny Meyer is one of the best restauranteurs in the world and I remember eating at Union Square Cafe a few years back and they'd implemented a no tipping system. I'm too lazy to google it but I think they've rescinded it as it had too much pushback. It's complicated.

Yeah, when it comes to restaurants with servers, I say let's just leave it be.
I could certainly see pushback at every angle for any restaurant that tried to change the system. Customers, employees, owners all like it. Not "all", but the vast majority.

The most fun thing we can do with money is give it away.
For a customer, they end every meal by doing something generous. Every time that sparks a smile somewhere in the soul (even if unconscious). Pretty good way to end a transaction.

Now, the ever-expanding tip screens showing up in non-traditional tipping situations, yeah, we need to cool it on that.

But let's just let restaurants have this one.

 

[Cowboysfan8]

We went to Roadhouse a few weeks ago. A hostess sat us. A waitress took our order.
A runner brought our drinks, then our app and entree.
We paid at the table on a little card machine.
Did the waitress pocket my 20% tip just for writing down our order? That’s all she did

 

[Leroy Hoard]

We went to Roadhouse a few weeks ago. A hostess sat us. A waitress took our order.
A runner brought our drinks, then our app and entree.
We paid at the table on a little card machine.
Did the waitress pocket my 20% tip just for writing down our order? That’s all she did

In my state the waitress makes sub minimum wage (3.84 an hour). Everyone else makes at least the regular minimum wage (10.10).

 

[culdeus]

We went to Roadhouse a few weeks ago. A hostess sat us. A waitress took our order.
A runner brought our drinks, then our app and entree.
We paid at the table on a little card machine.
Did the waitress pocket my 20% tip just for writing down our order? That’s all she did

I mean let's be honest. In a place that sells mostly burgers and fries what else you really expect?

 

[Chemical X]

as an aside, if the 2 of us decide to go out for a bite to eat, we are now more than likely to hit a place that is not sit down and wait staff. maybe call it fast casual? all things being equal, i’ll go less formal and hit a place where i order and pay at the register. these places are not really a tremendous bargain anymore, but i don’t leave a tip at these places. case in point, we wanted shawarma/falafel last week. instead of hitting aladdin’s for a sit down, we hit a small local kebab place. food was surprisingly very good. i’ve also found that we now split a dish more often than not. we got a shawarma platter and some extra pita, then made 2 sandwiches and got the appetizer sampler. we escaped for about $22-.

 

[massraider]

We went to Roadhouse a few weeks ago. A hostess sat us. A waitress took our order.
A runner brought our drinks, then our app and entree.
We paid at the table on a little card machine.
Did the waitress pocket my 20% tip just for writing down our order? That’s all she did

No.
Runner probably makes about half in tips what server makes.

Runners, busser etc are indirectly tipped employees, most of them get something close to minimum wage.

Directly tipped employees, like bartender and server, get less than minimum wage. So the food runner is getting paid more per hour. Again, depends on the state.

 

[Keerock]

One weird angle of the no tipping thing was we had a fantastic server at Union Square. Like top 10 ever. And it felt weird to leave them no tip. They were gracious about it and seemed to be sincere in saying it was included. But still did not feel right. Which was a little illuminating for me in I realized I liked to recognize the server that way. In restaurants where I'm a regular, I like the special service and free stuff I get. So there's a self serving part in it too. As I said, it's complicated.

Here's the thing (for me at least). If I were at a "no tipping restaurant", I would happily slip an excellent server a tip. I think it's appropriate to tip for excellent, above and beyond service. I don't like the expectation that I tip no matter what.

 

[5-ish Finkle]

Had someone (super upset) compare my beer prices to the “gas station by their house”. I was running, and they were at my craft brewery at the time

Know what I used to say as a server?

"I know, right??"

my place is on the sand and you can not get a better view in laguna beach. i say this exactly but i add in an expressive wave at the ocean

"Better view" of what....the ocean or the transients? OOOOHHH! RIMSHOOOOT!!!

NIMBY. There are maybe 3 home less in laguna. They’re not prevone (super upset) compare my beer prices to the “gas station by their house”. I was running, and they were at my craft brewery at the time

Know what I used to say as a server?

"I know, right??"

my place is on the sand and you can not get a better view in laguna beach. i say this exactly but i add in an expressive wave at the ocean

"Better view" of what....the ocean or the transients? OOOOHHH! RIMSHOOOOT!!!

NIMBY. There are maybe 3 home less in laguna. They’re not prevalent at all.

Laguna Beach...CA?

Respectfully, I have been to Laguna within the past month. There were more than three homeless persons on the corner of Broadway and PCH alone.

 

[shuke]

75 bucks for ****ty takeout pizza

WHAT?

 

[DA RAIDERS]

Had someone (super upset) compare my beer prices to the “gas station by their house”. I was running, and they were at my craft brewery at the time

Know what I used to say as a server?

"I know, right??"

my place is on the sand and you can not get a better view in laguna beach. i say this exactly but i add in an expressive wave at the ocean

"Better view" of what....the ocean or the transients? OOOOHHH! RIMSHOOOOT!!!

NIMBY. There are maybe 3 home less in laguna. They’re not prevone (super upset) compare my beer prices to the “gas station by their house”. I was running, and they were at my craft brewery at the time

Know what I used to say as a server?

"I know, right??"

my place is on the sand and you can not get a better view in laguna beach. i say this exactly but i add in an expressive wave at the ocean

"Better view" of what....the ocean or the transients? OOOOHHH! RIMSHOOOOT!!!

NIMBY. There are maybe 3 home less in laguna. They’re not prevalent at all.

Laguna Beach...CA?

Respectfully, I have been to Laguna within the past month. There were more than three homeless persons on the corner of Broadway and PCH alone.

I’m there everyday. The few meth heads that are out on main beach during the day dont go anywhere else. And they disappear once the sun gets low in the sky. I grew up in downtown LA. I’ve seen massive amounts of transients. Laguna is relatively free of them.

 

[FreeBaGeL]

One weird angle of the no tipping thing was we had a fantastic server at Union Square. Like top 10 ever. And it felt weird to leave them no tip. They were gracious about it and seemed to be sincere in saying it was included. But still did not feel right. Which was a little illuminating for me in I realized I liked to recognize the server that way. In restaurants where I'm a regular, I like the special service and free stuff I get. So there's a self serving part in it too. As I said, it's complicated.

Here's the thing (for me at least). If I were at a "no tipping restaurant", I would happily slip an excellent server a tip. I think it's appropriate to tip for excellent, above and beyond service. I don't like the expectation that I tip no matter what.

Right. The notion that that tipping leads to better service is a pipe dream. A crappy server gets a crappy tip and they mumble under their breath "freaking cheapskate" rather than thinking "maybe I should have done a better job".

I don't think I've ever tipped much less than 20% and that includes some nights of pretty lousy service, especially recently. But society has banged into my head that leaving a poor tip means I'm the bad guy.

The tipping system exists because people have gotten used to it and for no other reason. I'm tired of the excuses that restaurants can't get by without underpaying their servers because every other country has figured out how to make that work. And further, FDR was clear about it when enacting minimum wage laws.

"It seems to me to be equally plain that no business which depends for existence on paying less than living wages to its workers has any right to continue in this country."

By the very definition of our wage laws, a business that cannot afford to pay the minimum wage while keeping prices competitive enough to attract customers is not a business that should exist.

I honestly don't know why restaurants and restaurants alone have been granted an exception to that foundation.

 

[Stoneworker]

One weird angle of the no tipping thing was we had a fantastic server at Union Square. Like top 10 ever. And it felt weird to leave them no tip. They were gracious about it and seemed to be sincere in saying it was included. But still did not feel right. Which was a little illuminating for me in I realized I liked to recognize the server that way. In restaurants where I'm a regular, I like the special service and free stuff I get. So there's a self serving part in it too. As I said, it's complicated.

Here's the thing (for me at least). If I were at a "no tipping restaurant", I would happily slip an excellent server a tip. I think it's appropriate to tip for excellent, above and beyond service. I don't like the expectation that I tip no matter what.

Right. The notion that that tipping leads to better service is a pipe dream. A crappy server gets a crappy tip and they mumble under their breath "freaking cheapskate" rather than thinking "maybe I should have done a better job".

I don't think I've ever tipped much less than 20% and that includes some nights of pretty lousy service, especially recently. But society has banged into my head that leaving a poor tip means I'm the bad guy.

The tipping system exists because people have gotten used to it and for no other reason. I'm tired of the excuses that restaurants can't get by without underpaying their servers because every other country has figured out how to make that work. And further, FDR was clear about it when enacting minimum wage laws.

"It seems to me to be equally plain that no business which depends for existence on paying less than living wages to its workers has any right to continue in this country."

By the very definition of our wage laws, a business that cannot afford to pay the minimum wage while keeping prices competitive enough to attract customers is not a business that should exist.

I honestly don't know why restaurants and restaurants alone have been granted an exception to that foundation.

Good thoughts.

It's rare, but whenever I get genuinely crappy service I leave no tip at all. That way there's no confusion about the message.

Otherwise, 15% is my floor even if a little substandard (no judgment on others' approach).

 

[The Z Machine]

One weird angle of the no tipping thing was we had a fantastic server at Union Square. Like top 10 ever. And it felt weird to leave them no tip. They were gracious about it and seemed to be sincere in saying it was included. But still did not feel right. Which was a little illuminating for me in I realized I liked to recognize the server that way. In restaurants where I'm a regular, I like the special service and free stuff I get. So there's a self serving part in it too. As I said, it's complicated.

Here's the thing (for me at least). If I were at a "no tipping restaurant", I would happily slip an excellent server a tip. I think it's appropriate to tip for excellent, above and beyond service. I don't like the expectation that I tip no matter what.

Right. The notion that that tipping leads to better service is a pipe dream. A crappy server gets a crappy tip and they mumble under their breath "freaking cheapskate" rather than thinking "maybe I should have done a better job".

I don't think I've ever tipped much less than 20% and that includes some nights of pretty lousy service, especially recently. But society has banged into my head that leaving a poor tip means I'm the bad guy.

The tipping system exists because people have gotten used to it and for no other reason. I'm tired of the excuses that restaurants can't get by without underpaying their servers because every other country has figured out how to make that work. And further, FDR was clear about it when enacting minimum wage laws.

"It seems to me to be equally plain that no business which depends for existence on paying less than living wages to its workers has any right to continue in this country."

By the very definition of our wage laws, a business that cannot afford to pay the minimum wage while keeping prices competitive enough to attract customers is not a business that should exist.

I honestly don't know why restaurants and restaurants alone have been granted an exception to that foundation.

Good thoughts.

It's rare, but whenever I get genuinely crappy service I leave no tip at all. That way there's no confusion about the message.

Otherwise, 15% is my floor even if a little substandard (no judgment on others' approach).

Do you ever get called out by the server for doing that? Also, proliferation of portable CC machines where the server completes the transaction tableside without a printed recepit, you'll have to give no tip right to the face of the server. They may get very angry.

 

[Stoneworker]

One weird angle of the no tipping thing was we had a fantastic server at Union Square. Like top 10 ever. And it felt weird to leave them no tip. They were gracious about it and seemed to be sincere in saying it was included. But still did not feel right. Which was a little illuminating for me in I realized I liked to recognize the server that way. In restaurants where I'm a regular, I like the special service and free stuff I get. So there's a self serving part in it too. As I said, it's complicated.

Here's the thing (for me at least). If I were at a "no tipping restaurant", I would happily slip an excellent server a tip. I think it's appropriate to tip for excellent, above and beyond service. I don't like the expectation that I tip no matter what.

Right. The notion that that tipping leads to better service is a pipe dream. A crappy server gets a crappy tip and they mumble under their breath "freaking cheapskate" rather than thinking "maybe I should have done a better job".

I don't think I've ever tipped much less than 20% and that includes some nights of pretty lousy service, especially recently. But society has banged into my head that leaving a poor tip means I'm the bad guy.

The tipping system exists because people have gotten used to it and for no other reason. I'm tired of the excuses that restaurants can't get by without underpaying their servers because every other country has figured out how to make that work. And further, FDR was clear about it when enacting minimum wage laws.

"It seems to me to be equally plain that no business which depends for existence on paying less than living wages to its workers has any right to continue in this country."

By the very definition of our wage laws, a business that cannot afford to pay the minimum wage while keeping prices competitive enough to attract customers is not a business that should exist.

I honestly don't know why restaurants and restaurants alone have been granted an exception to that foundation.

Good thoughts.

It's rare, but whenever I get genuinely crappy service I leave no tip at all. That way there's no confusion about the message.

Otherwise, 15% is my floor even if a little substandard (no judgment on others' approach).

Do you ever get called out by the server for doing that? Also, proliferation of portable CC machines where the server completes the transaction tableside without a printed recepit, you'll have to give no tip right to the face of the server. They may get very angry.

Like I said, it's rare (maybe 3x total lifetime) and hasn't happened since Covid so can't remember specific circumstances.

In all cases, however, it was about consistent rudeness that negatively colored the whole dining experience for me and/or my guests.

In no cases did I hide in any way from the server nor particularly care how they might respond. I wasn't the bad guy.

If tipping is truly voluntary, then people should have the right to withhold a tip in its entirety for their own legitimate reasons and without repercussions (angry looks or otherwise).

 

[Dr. Octopus]

people should have the right to withhold a tip in its entirety for their own legitimate reasons and without repercussions (angry looks or otherwise).

you should - but hopefully you don't return to that restaurant and get the same server. You may get some extra "sauce" on your pasta dish.

 

[Chemical X]

One weird angle of the no tipping thing was we had a fantastic server at Union Square. Like top 10 ever. And it felt weird to leave them no tip. They were gracious about it and seemed to be sincere in saying it was included. But still did not feel right. Which was a little illuminating for me in I realized I liked to recognize the server that way. In restaurants where I'm a regular, I like the special service and free stuff I get. So there's a self serving part in it too. As I said, it's complicated.

Here's the thing (for me at least). If I were at a "no tipping restaurant", I would happily slip an excellent server a tip. I think it's appropriate to tip for excellent, above and beyond service. I don't like the expectation that I tip no matter what.

Right. The notion that that tipping leads to better service is a pipe dream. A crappy server gets a crappy tip and they mumble under their breath "freaking cheapskate" rather than thinking "maybe I should have done a better job".

I don't think I've ever tipped much less than 20% and that includes some nights of pretty lousy service, especially recently. But society has banged into my head that leaving a poor tip means I'm the bad guy.

The tipping system exists because people have gotten used to it and for no other reason. I'm tired of the excuses that restaurants can't get by without underpaying their servers because every other country has figured out how to make that work. And further, FDR was clear about it when enacting minimum wage laws.

"It seems to me to be equally plain that no business which depends for existence on paying less than living wages to its workers has any right to continue in this country."

By the very definition of our wage laws, a business that cannot afford to pay the minimum wage while keeping prices competitive enough to attract customers is not a business that should exist.

I honestly don't know why restaurants and restaurants alone have been granted an exception to that foundation.

this…..100%.

i have many pet peeves, but i call it the creeps. things have crept into normality to the point where it is no longer questioned. just accepted. tipping, child catering culture and even military appreciation at sporting events are examples of this IMO. now it’s teacher and hospital workers and first responders. i don’t want to get into a long debate about my thoughts, so i’ll keep it at tipping.

that said, i do understand that 7.25$ is the federal and minimum wage in many areas and the cash minimum is 2.15$ or so; however, i don’t know why it’s my responsibility to compensate the employee, especially since i am already paying increased prices. i mean, i don’t regularly ask how much people are being paid anyplace else. i don’t tip everyone.
do i do well enough to not complain, yes. not the point. labor expense should be borne by the service provider. i am already paying retail. just my .02.

 

[Joe Bryant]

This has merged with the tipping thread I know. Not sure what can be done about having two threads now on the same topic.

A few years back when I had a conversation about the church crowd not tipping well, I made a decision to go 30% tip. All the time. Don't think about it. Good service or bad. I'll also say I almost always seem to get excellent service.

It's not compensating for my Christian friends, who apparently don't tip well. It's just what I do.

I look at it simply as a cost of eating out. If I can't afford to do 30%, I don't go out.

And in reality, it's not that much given the reality that the minimum I'd tip is 20%. So the question isn't really tipping $30 on a $100 bill. It's spending $10 more than the minimum I would have spent. In the grand scheme of things, it's just not that big a deal.

Second point, is it "right" that the system is such that servers effectively have part of their salary paid by the customers? And shouldn't we force the restaurant to pay the servers? I think you can maybe make the case that yes, that should be the case. I also know plenty of restaurant owners, and it's a brutally tough business with razor-thin margins. It's fun to rant on a message board that they're greedy and raking in money because noobs like me are too dumb to buck the system. That's not my experience with restaurant owners. Most I know work their butts off for little profit.

But even if I didn't empathize with restaurant owners, what am I to practically do about it tonight if I go out to dinner? The system works pretty well for me. The restaurant seems happy to have a customer, and the server I'm assuming is happy with 30%. And I get dinner. And can go on to bigger problems I need to tackle.

 

[Chemical X]

This has merged with the tipping thread I know. Not sure what can be done about having two threads now on the same topic.

A few years back when I had a conversation about the church crowd not tipping well, I made a decision to go 30% tip. All the time. Don't think about it. Good service or bad. I'll also say I almost always seem to get excellent service.

It's not compensating for my Christian friends, who apparently don't tip well. It's just what I do.

I look at it simply as a cost of eating out. If I can't afford to do 30%, I don't go out.

And in reality, it's not that much given the reality that the minimum I'd tip is 20%. So the question isn't really tipping $30 on a $100 bill. It's spending $10 more than the minimum I would have spent. In the grand scheme of things, it's just not that big a deal.

Second point, is it "right" that the system is such that servers effectively have part of their salary paid by the customers? And shouldn't we force the restaurant to pay the servers? I think you can maybe make the case that yes, that should be the case. I also know plenty of restaurant owners, and it's a brutally tough business with razor-thin margins. It's fun to rant on a message board that they're greedy and raking in money because noobs like me are too dumb to buck the system. That's not my experience with restaurant owners. Most I know work their butts off for little profit.

But even if I didn't empathize with restaurant owners, what am I to practically do about it tonight if I go out to dinner? The system works pretty well for me. The restaurant seems happy to have a customer, and the server I'm assuming is happy with 30%. And I get dinner. And can go on to bigger problems I need to tackle.

here’s my thing on this…..if you go to a restaurant that has wait service as opposed to a place where you order at the register and you get your food yourself or you get a number and someone brings you your food, is that really worth 20-30% extra and aren’t employees in both locales pretty similar for argument sake?

i mean, a server is taking your order and bringing you food. they are not exactly splitting the atom or really enhancing the experience, IMO.

 

[DA RAIDERS]

This has merged with the tipping thread I know. Not sure what can be done about having two threads now on the same topic.

A few years back when I had a conversation about the church crowd not tipping well, I made a decision to go 30% tip. All the time. Don't think about it. Good service or bad. I'll also say I almost always seem to get excellent service.

It's not compensating for my Christian friends, who apparently don't tip well. It's just what I do.

I look at it simply as a cost of eating out. If I can't afford to do 30%, I don't go out.

And in reality, it's not that much given the reality that the minimum I'd tip is 20%. So the question isn't really tipping $30 on a $100 bill. It's spending $10 more than the minimum I would have spent. In the grand scheme of things, it's just not that big a deal.

Second point, is it "right" that the system is such that servers effectively have part of their salary paid by the customers? And shouldn't we force the restaurant to pay the servers? I think you can maybe make the case that yes, that should be the case. I also know plenty of restaurant owners, and it's a brutally tough business with razor-thin margins. It's fun to rant on a message board that they're greedy and raking in money because noobs like me are too dumb to buck the system. That's not my experience with restaurant owners. Most I know work their butts off for little profit.

But even if I didn't empathize with restaurant owners, what am I to practically do about it tonight if I go out to dinner? The system works pretty well for me. The restaurant seems happy to have a customer, and the server I'm assuming is happy with 30%. And I get dinner. And can go on to bigger problems I need to tackle.

this is the way.

$80 tab throwing and extra $4 bucks on the 20% tip to make it $20 really makes a server's day. so $96 or $100 same thing for the 15%ers $92 vs $96 does it really matter to me? nope.

i also have zero issues tipping less if the server is terrible. and there's no guilt on the ridiculous requests from the auto prompters

 

[Stoneworker]

This has merged with the tipping thread I know. Not sure what can be done about having two threads now on the same topic.

A few years back when I had a conversation about the church crowd not tipping well, I made a decision to go 30% tip. All the time. Don't think about it. Good service or bad. I'll also say I almost always seem to get excellent service.

It's not compensating for my Christian friends, who apparently don't tip well. It's just what I do.

I look at it simply as a cost of eating out. If I can't afford to do 30%, I don't go out.

And in reality, it's not that much given the reality that the minimum I'd tip is 20%. So the question isn't really tipping $30 on a $100 bill. It's spending $10 more than the minimum I would have spent. In the grand scheme of things, it's just not that big a deal.

Second point, is it "right" that the system is such that servers effectively have part of their salary paid by the customers? And shouldn't we force the restaurant to pay the servers? I think you can maybe make the case that yes, that should be the case. I also know plenty of restaurant owners, and it's a brutally tough business with razor-thin margins. It's fun to rant on a message board that they're greedy and raking in money because noobs like me are too dumb to buck the system. That's not my experience with restaurant owners. Most I know work their butts off for little profit.

But even if I didn't empathize with restaurant owners, what am I to practically do about it tonight if I go out to dinner? The system works pretty well for me. The restaurant seems happy to have a customer, and the server I'm assuming is happy with 30%. And I get dinner. And can go on to bigger problems I need to tackle.

this is the way.

$80 tab throwing and extra $4 bucks on the 20% tip to make it $20 really makes a server's day. so $96 or $100 same thing for the 15%ers $92 vs $96 does it really matter to me? nope.

i also have zero issues tipping less if the server is terrible. and there's no guilt on the ridiculous requests from the auto prompters

Seems to me this is where the dreaded "tip creep" issue comes in.

Soon the 15/20/25 scale becomes 20/25/30 (if its not already) with accompanying confusion and no apparent rationale...and in another 20 years its 30/35/40 and on and on.

I would rather the restaurant owners step up if servers aren't getting paid enough.

Keep it simple and don't make customers constantly work to compensate for a broken business model.

 

[Joe Bryant]

here’s my thing on this…..if you go to a restaurant that has wait service as opposed to a place where you order at the register and you get your food yourself or you get a number and someone brings you your food, is that really worth 20-30% extra and aren’t employees in both locales pretty similar for argument sake?

i mean, a server is taking your order and bringing you food. they are not exactly splitting the atom or really enhancing the experience, IMO.

I understand your point. And you're likely in the majority. I'm just saying this works for me. And the folks at the restaurant from the owners to the servers seem to like it. And I don't think about it and I'm happy so it seems like we all win.

Am I overpaying? Are the restaurants taking advantage of me? Maybe. Again, the restaurant owners I know aren't greedy and it doesn't seem to me like they're taking advantage of anyone. It's a tough business and I'm able to spread a tiny bit of good around.

I totally agree it's likely not the most EV financial thing.

 

[pollardsvision]

One weird angle of the no tipping thing was we had a fantastic server at Union Square. Like top 10 ever. And it felt weird to leave them no tip. They were gracious about it and seemed to be sincere in saying it was included. But still did not feel right. Which was a little illuminating for me in I realized I liked to recognize the server that way. In restaurants where I'm a regular, I like the special service and free stuff I get. So there's a self serving part in it too. As I said, it's complicated.

Here's the thing (for me at least). If I were at a "no tipping restaurant", I would happily slip an excellent server a tip. I think it's appropriate to tip for excellent, above and beyond service. I don't like the expectation that I tip no matter what.

Right. The notion that that tipping leads to better service is a pipe dream. A crappy server gets a crappy tip and they mumble under their breath "freaking cheapskate" rather than thinking "maybe I should have done a better job".

I don't think I've ever tipped much less than 20% and that includes some nights of pretty lousy service, especially recently. But society has banged into my head that leaving a poor tip means I'm the bad guy.

The tipping system exists because people have gotten used to it and for no other reason. I'm tired of the excuses that restaurants can't get by without underpaying their servers because every other country has figured out how to make that work. And further, FDR was clear about it when enacting minimum wage laws.

"It seems to me to be equally plain that no business which depends for existence on paying less than living wages to its workers has any right to continue in this country."

By the very definition of our wage laws, a business that cannot afford to pay the minimum wage while keeping prices competitive enough to attract customers is not a business that should exist.

I honestly don't know why restaurants and restaurants alone have been granted an exception to that foundation.

I can't speak to the history of how restaurants were granted this loophole. Why it became this way or whether or not it's right, I can't speak to that.

But restaurants are certainly unique. There are a lot of service industries that share similarities, but still, restaurants are unique.
Restaurants are both "non-essential" and "absolutely essential" at the same time.

They provide 2 things we absolutely need as human beings. Nourishment and community/human connection. There are obviously ways to get both of those things without restaurants (3 years ago we were told that, in no uncertain terms).

But day-by-day, city-by-city, I don't think there's any other industry that provides nourishment and community to the masses with the consistency that restaurants do.

It's a unique industry where they need to stand by, paying overhead, pre-ordering and pre-prepping highly perishable ingredients waiting to feed the masses. Provide an environment where folks can come, sit down and eat with their loved ones and do nothing else. Think of all the work that goes into grilling out with a crowd at your home. The days of prep leading up to it. The absolutely horrible clean-up afterwards. Restaurants do that awful routine every day.

I say this as someone who almost never eats at a restaurant. I pretty much hate going out to eat. I've been forcing myself to do it more lately, but I recently went almost 5 years without eating at a restaurant. When I do, I stick to a few places where I just really like the work ethic of the staff and really just go to leave a big tip as part of my giving plan.

I bring that up because, personally, I agree. The whole system is ridiculous. We really don't need restaurants (by "we", I mean "me").

But working in a restaurant, I see that we really do. When the pandemic hit, I thought the entire industry was going to hell. But people need nourishment and community. And as of now, nobody provides that like restaurants.

That's probably all really off-topic. I don't know if it's right or if there's a way to change it. It just is. The industry stumbles along.

It's a unique industry. IMO, deserving of a little different system.

But I don't know. I'm getting up again here in a few hours at 3AM so folks can eat and have a sense of community. If there's a ground swell to change the system, that's fine. Just give me some time to adjust because I don't have much of it.

 

[Joe Bryant]

$80 tab throwing and extra $4 bucks on the 20% tip to make it $20 really makes a server's day. so $96 or $100 same thing for the 15%ers $92 vs $96 does it really matter to me? nope.

Yes. I'm not trying to sound flip or rich but in the grand scheme of things with kids tuition and car payments and mortgage and such, a few extra dollars just aren't that big a deal. And for the server, it might well be a big deal.

 

[Joe Bryant]

I can't speak to the history of how restaurants were granted this loophole. Why it became this way or whether or not it's right, I can't speak to that.

But restaurants are certainly unique. There are a lot of service industries that share similarities, but still, restaurants are unique.
Restaurants are both "non-essential" and "absolutely essential" at the same time.

They provide 2 things we absolutely need as human beings. Nourishment and community/human connection. There are obviously ways to get both of those things without restaurants (3 years ago we were told that, in no uncertain terms).

But day-by-day, city-by-city, I don't think there's any other industry that provides nourishment and community to the masses with the consistency that restaurants do.

It's a unique industry where they need to stand by, paying overhead, pre-ordering and pre-prepping highly perishable ingredients waiting to feed the masses. Provide an environment where folks can come, sit down and eat with their loved ones and do nothing else. Think of all the work that goes into grilling out with a crowd at your home. The days of prep leading up to it. The absolutely horrible clean-up afterwards. Restaurants do that awful routine every day.

I say this as someone who almost never eats at a restaurant. I pretty much hate going out to eat. I've been forcing myself to do it more lately, but I recently went almost 5 years without eating at a restaurant. When I do, I stick to a few places where I just really like the work ethic of the staff and really just go to leave a big tip as part of my giving plan.

I bring that up because, personally, I agree. The whole system is ridiculous. We really don't need restaurants (by "we", I mean "me").

But working in a restaurant, I see that we really do. When the pandemic hit, I thought the entire industry was going to hell. But people need nourishment and community. And as of now, nobody provides that like restaurants.

That's probably all really off-topic. I don't know if it's right or if there's a way to change it. It just is. The industry stumbles along.

It's a unique industry. IMO, deserving of a little different system.

But I don't know. I'm getting up again here in a few hours at 3AM so folks can eat and have a sense of community. If there's a ground swell to change the system, that's fine. Just give me some time to adjust because I don't have much of it.

Preach.

For a ton of restaurants, it's about way more than the food.

 

[culdeus]

One weird angle of the no tipping thing was we had a fantastic server at Union Square. Like top 10 ever. And it felt weird to leave them no tip. They were gracious about it and seemed to be sincere in saying it was included. But still did not feel right. Which was a little illuminating for me in I realized I liked to recognize the server that way. In restaurants where I'm a regular, I like the special service and free stuff I get. So there's a self serving part in it too. As I said, it's complicated.

Here's the thing (for me at least). If I were at a "no tipping restaurant", I would happily slip an excellent server a tip. I think it's appropriate to tip for excellent, above and beyond service. I don't like the expectation that I tip no matter what.

Right. The notion that that tipping leads to better service is a pipe dream. A crappy server gets a crappy tip and they mumble under their breath "freaking cheapskate" rather than thinking "maybe I should have done a better job".

I don't think I've ever tipped much less than 20% and that includes some nights of pretty lousy service, especially recently. But society has banged into my head that leaving a poor tip means I'm the bad guy.

The tipping system exists because people have gotten used to it and for no other reason. I'm tired of the excuses that restaurants can't get by without underpaying their servers because every other country has figured out how to make that work. And further, FDR was clear about it when enacting minimum wage laws.

"It seems to me to be equally plain that no business which depends for existence on paying less than living wages to its workers has any right to continue in this country."

By the very definition of our wage laws, a business that cannot afford to pay the minimum wage while keeping prices competitive enough to attract customers is not a business that should exist.

I honestly don't know why restaurants and restaurants alone have been granted an exception to that foundation.

I can't speak to the history of how restaurants were granted this loophole. Why it became this way or whether or not it's right, I can't speak to that.

But restaurants are certainly unique. There are a lot of service industries that share similarities, but still, restaurants are unique.
Restaurants are both "non-essential" and "absolutely essential" at the same time.

They provide 2 things we absolutely need as human beings. Nourishment and community/human connection. There are obviously ways to get both of those things without restaurants (3 years ago we were told that, in no uncertain terms).

But day-by-day, city-by-city, I don't think there's any other industry that provides nourishment and community to the masses with the consistency that restaurants do.

It's a unique industry where they need to stand by, paying overhead, pre-ordering and pre-prepping highly perishable ingredients waiting to feed the masses. Provide an environment where folks can come, sit down and eat with their loved ones and do nothing else. Think of all the work that goes into grilling out with a crowd at your home. The days of prep leading up to it. The absolutely horrible clean-up afterwards. Restaurants do that awful routine every day.

I say this as someone who almost never eats at a restaurant. I pretty much hate going out to eat. I've been forcing myself to do it more lately, but I recently went almost 5 years without eating at a restaurant. When I do, I stick to a few places where I just really like the work ethic of the staff and really just go to leave a big tip as part of my giving plan.

I bring that up because, personally, I agree. The whole system is ridiculous. We really don't need restaurants (by "we", I mean "me").

But working in a restaurant, I see that we really do. When the pandemic hit, I thought the entire industry was going to hell. But people need nourishment and community. And as of now, nobody provides that like restaurants.

That's probably all really off-topic. I don't know if it's right or if there's a way to change it. It just is. The industry stumbles along.

It's a unique industry. IMO, deserving of a little different system.

But I don't know. I'm getting up again here in a few hours at 3AM so folks can eat and have a sense of community. If there's a ground swell to change the system, that's fine. Just give me some time to adjust because I don't have much of it.

Absurd. If restaurants were the same as McDonald's from day 1 nothing would be different. Food would come out and people would be the same. Just go to Europe.

Tipping is a way for restaurants to pay a commission rather than a wage and ideally stay open longer if sales are low.

There is zero benefit to the consumer. Only confusion over what is the expectation. Now faced with a expectation on machines we are pushing back.

 

[DA RAIDERS]

This has merged with the tipping thread I know. Not sure what can be done about having two threads now on the same topic.

A few years back when I had a conversation about the church crowd not tipping well, I made a decision to go 30% tip. All the time. Don't think about it. Good service or bad. I'll also say I almost always seem to get excellent service.

It's not compensating for my Christian friends, who apparently don't tip well. It's just what I do.

I look at it simply as a cost of eating out. If I can't afford to do 30%, I don't go out.

And in reality, it's not that much given the reality that the minimum I'd tip is 20%. So the question isn't really tipping $30 on a $100 bill. It's spending $10 more than the minimum I would have spent. In the grand scheme of things, it's just not that big a deal.

Second point, is it "right" that the system is such that servers effectively have part of their salary paid by the customers? And shouldn't we force the restaurant to pay the servers? I think you can maybe make the case that yes, that should be the case. I also know plenty of restaurant owners, and it's a brutally tough business with razor-thin margins. It's fun to rant on a message board that they're greedy and raking in money because noobs like me are too dumb to buck the system. That's not my experience with restaurant owners. Most I know work their butts off for little profit.

But even if I didn't empathize with restaurant owners, what am I to practically do about it tonight if I go out to dinner? The system works pretty well for me. The restaurant seems happy to have a customer, and the server I'm assuming is happy with 30%. And I get dinner. And can go on to bigger problems I need to tackle.

this is the way.

$80 tab throwing and extra $4 bucks on the 20% tip to make it $20 really makes a server's day. so $96 or $100 same thing for the 15%ers $92 vs $96 does it really matter to me? nope.

i also have zero issues tipping less if the server is terrible. and there's no guilt on the ridiculous requests from the auto prompters

Seems to me this is where the dreaded "tip creep" issue comes in.

Soon the 15/20/25 scale becomes 20/25/30 (if its not already) with accompanying confusion and no apparent rationale...and in another 20 years its 30/35/40 and on and on.

I would rather the restaurant owners step up if servers aren't getting paid enough.

Keep it simple and don't make customers constantly work to compensate for a broken business model.

not for me. i don't buy the tip creep concept. i've been in the industry for ever. 15% has been the baseline standard the entire time i've been doing it. that's adequate to good service. 20% is for excellent service. above that is people being nice.

margins are too thin for restaurants to be paying everyone a "living wage" no one would eat out if they passed those cost on to customers. let's do the math on 10 servers. what's livable? 30k, 40, 50? let's do 40K that's 400k a year. the same 10 servers at $10/hour at 40 hours a week(almost none work 40 hours) is 21K so nearly double. and that's just the front of the house. we'd be looking at $50+ burgers

 

[General Malaise]

One weird angle of the no tipping thing was we had a fantastic server at Union Square. Like top 10 ever. And it felt weird to leave them no tip. They were gracious about it and seemed to be sincere in saying it was included. But still did not feel right. Which was a little illuminating for me in I realized I liked to recognize the server that way. In restaurants where I'm a regular, I like the special service and free stuff I get. So there's a self serving part in it too. As I said, it's complicated.

Here's the thing (for me at least). If I were at a "no tipping restaurant", I would happily slip an excellent server a tip. I think it's appropriate to tip for excellent, above and beyond service. I don't like the expectation that I tip no matter what.

Right. The notion that that tipping leads to better service is a pipe dream. A crappy server gets a crappy tip and they mumble under their breath "freaking cheapskate" rather than thinking "maybe I should have done a better job".

I don't think I've ever tipped much less than 20% and that includes some nights of pretty lousy service, especially recently. But society has banged into my head that leaving a poor tip means I'm the bad guy.

The tipping system exists because people have gotten used to it and for no other reason. I'm tired of the excuses that restaurants can't get by without underpaying their servers because every other country has figured out how to make that work. And further, FDR was clear about it when enacting minimum wage laws.

"It seems to me to be equally plain that no business which depends for existence on paying less than living wages to its workers has any right to continue in this country."

By the very definition of our wage laws, a business that cannot afford to pay the minimum wage while keeping prices competitive enough to attract customers is not a business that should exist.

I honestly don't know why restaurants and restaurants alone have been granted an exception to that foundation.

Good thoughts.

It's rare, but whenever I get genuinely crappy service I leave no tip at all. That way there's no confusion about the message.

Otherwise, 15% is my floor even if a little substandard (no judgment on others' approach).

One weird angle of the no tipping thing was we had a fantastic server at Union Square. Like top 10 ever. And it felt weird to leave them no tip. They were gracious about it and seemed to be sincere in saying it was included. But still did not feel right. Which was a little illuminating for me in I realized I liked to recognize the server that way. In restaurants where I'm a regular, I like the special service and free stuff I get. So there's a self serving part in it too. As I said, it's complicated.

Here's the thing (for me at least). If I were at a "no tipping restaurant", I would happily slip an excellent server a tip. I think it's appropriate to tip for excellent, above and beyond service. I don't like the expectation that I tip no matter what.

Right. The notion that that tipping leads to better service is a pipe dream. A crappy server gets a crappy tip and they mumble under their breath "freaking cheapskate" rather than thinking "maybe I should have done a better job".

I don't think I've ever tipped much less than 20% and that includes some nights of pretty lousy service, especially recently. But society has banged into my head that leaving a poor tip means I'm the bad guy.

The tipping system exists because people have gotten used to it and for no other reason. I'm tired of the excuses that restaurants can't get by without underpaying their servers because every other country has figured out how to make that work. And further, FDR was clear about it when enacting minimum wage laws.

"It seems to me to be equally plain that no business which depends for existence on paying less than living wages to its workers has any right to continue in this country."

By the very definition of our wage laws, a business that cannot afford to pay the minimum wage while keeping prices competitive enough to attract customers is not a business that should exist.

I honestly don't know why restaurants and restaurants alone have been granted an exception to that foundation.

I can't speak to the history of how restaurants were granted this loophole. Why it became this way or whether or not it's right, I can't speak to that.

But restaurants are certainly unique. There are a lot of service industries that share similarities, but still, restaurants are unique.
Restaurants are both "non-essential" and "absolutely essential" at the same time.

They provide 2 things we absolutely need as human beings. Nourishment and community/human connection. There are obviously ways to get both of those things without restaurants (3 years ago we were told that, in no uncertain terms).

But day-by-day, city-by-city, I don't think there's any other industry that provides nourishment and community to the masses with the consistency that restaurants do.

It's a unique industry where they need to stand by, paying overhead, pre-ordering and pre-prepping highly perishable ingredients waiting to feed the masses. Provide an environment where folks can come, sit down and eat with their loved ones and do nothing else. Think of all the work that goes into grilling out with a crowd at your home. The days of prep leading up to it. The absolutely horrible clean-up afterwards. Restaurants do that awful routine every day.

I say this as someone who almost never eats at a restaurant. I pretty much hate going out to eat. I've been forcing myself to do it more lately, but I recently went almost 5 years without eating at a restaurant. When I do, I stick to a few places where I just really like the work ethic of the staff and really just go to leave a big tip as part of my giving plan.

I bring that up because, personally, I agree. The whole system is ridiculous. We really don't need restaurants (by "we", I mean "me").

But working in a restaurant, I see that we really do. When the pandemic hit, I thought the entire industry was going to hell. But people need nourishment and community. And as of now, nobody provides that like restaurants.

That's probably all really off-topic. I don't know if it's right or if there's a way to change it. It just is. The industry stumbles along.

It's a unique industry. IMO, deserving of a little different system.

But I don't know. I'm getting up again here in a few hours at 3AM so folks can eat and have a sense of community. If there's a ground swell to change the system, that's fine. Just give me some time to adjust because I don't have much of it.

This is a fantastic post.

 

[General Malaise]

I can't speak to the history of how restaurants were granted this loophole. Why it became this way or whether or not it's right, I can't speak to that.

But restaurants are certainly unique. There are a lot of service industries that share similarities, but still, restaurants are unique.
Restaurants are both "non-essential" and "absolutely essential" at the same time.

They provide 2 things we absolutely need as human beings. Nourishment and community/human connection. There are obviously ways to get both of those things without restaurants (3 years ago we were told that, in no uncertain terms).

But day-by-day, city-by-city, I don't think there's any other industry that provides nourishment and community to the masses with the consistency that restaurants do.

It's a unique industry where they need to stand by, paying overhead, pre-ordering and pre-prepping highly perishable ingredients waiting to feed the masses. Provide an environment where folks can come, sit down and eat with their loved ones and do nothing else. Think of all the work that goes into grilling out with a crowd at your home. The days of prep leading up to it. The absolutely horrible clean-up afterwards. Restaurants do that awful routine every day.

I say this as someone who almost never eats at a restaurant. I pretty much hate going out to eat. I've been forcing myself to do it more lately, but I recently went almost 5 years without eating at a restaurant. When I do, I stick to a few places where I just really like the work ethic of the staff and really just go to leave a big tip as part of my giving plan.

I bring that up because, personally, I agree. The whole system is ridiculous. We really don't need restaurants (by "we", I mean "me").

But working in a restaurant, I see that we really do. When the pandemic hit, I thought the entire industry was going to hell. But people need nourishment and community. And as of now, nobody provides that like restaurants.

That's probably all really off-topic. I don't know if it's right or if there's a way to change it. It just is. The industry stumbles along.

It's a unique industry. IMO, deserving of a little different system.

But I don't know. I'm getting up again here in a few hours at 3AM so folks can eat and have a sense of community. If there's a ground swell to change the system, that's fine. Just give me some time to adjust because I don't have much of it.

Preach.

For a ton of restaurants, it's about way more than the food.

I sure hope all of us posting in here have watched The Bear. IMO, that's the best show to come out in years and hits on a lot of this - it's not just the food.

 

[culdeus]

This has merged with the tipping thread I know. Not sure what can be done about having two threads now on the same topic.

A few years back when I had a conversation about the church crowd not tipping well, I made a decision to go 30% tip. All the time. Don't think about it. Good service or bad. I'll also say I almost always seem to get excellent service.

It's not compensating for my Christian friends, who apparently don't tip well. It's just what I do.

I look at it simply as a cost of eating out. If I can't afford to do 30%, I don't go out.

And in reality, it's not that much given the reality that the minimum I'd tip is 20%. So the question isn't really tipping $30 on a $100 bill. It's spending $10 more than the minimum I would have spent. In the grand scheme of things, it's just not that big a deal.

Second point, is it "right" that the system is such that servers effectively have part of their salary paid by the customers? And shouldn't we force the restaurant to pay the servers? I think you can maybe make the case that yes, that should be the case. I also know plenty of restaurant owners, and it's a brutally tough business with razor-thin margins. It's fun to rant on a message board that they're greedy and raking in money because noobs like me are too dumb to buck the system. That's not my experience with restaurant owners. Most I know work their butts off for little profit.

But even if I didn't empathize with restaurant owners, what am I to practically do about it tonight if I go out to dinner? The system works pretty well for me. The restaurant seems happy to have a customer, and the server I'm assuming is happy with 30%. And I get dinner. And can go on to bigger problems I need to tackle.

this is the way.

$80 tab throwing and extra $4 bucks on the 20% tip to make it $20 really makes a server's day. so $96 or $100 same thing for the 15%ers $92 vs $96 does it really matter to me? nope.

i also have zero issues tipping less if the server is terrible. and there's no guilt on the ridiculous requests from the auto prompters

Seems to me this is where the dreaded "tip creep" issue comes in.

Soon the 15/20/25 scale becomes 20/25/30 (if its not already) with accompanying confusion and no apparent rationale...and in another 20 years its 30/35/40 and on and on.

I would rather the restaurant owners step up if servers aren't getting paid enough.

Keep it simple and don't make customers constantly work to compensate for a broken business model.

not for me. i don't buy the tip creep concept. i've been in the industry for ever. 15% has been the baseline standard the entire time i've been doing it. that's adequate to good service. 20% is for excellent service. above that is people being nice.

margins are too thin for restaurants to be paying everyone a "living wage" no one would eat out if they passed those cost on to customers. let's do the math on 10 servers. what's livable? 30k, 40, 50? let's do 40K that's 400k a year. the same 10 servers at $10/hour at 40 hours a week(almost none work 40 hours) is 21K so nearly double. and that's just the front of the house. we'd be looking at $50+ burgers

What are the economics that more or less allows no tipping in Europe. Seem to be plenty of restaurants there and no staffing issues.

 

[General Malaise]

One weird angle of the no tipping thing was we had a fantastic server at Union Square. Like top 10 ever. And it felt weird to leave them no tip. They were gracious about it and seemed to be sincere in saying it was included. But still did not feel right. Which was a little illuminating for me in I realized I liked to recognize the server that way. In restaurants where I'm a regular, I like the special service and free stuff I get. So there's a self serving part in it too. As I said, it's complicated.

Here's the thing (for me at least). If I were at a "no tipping restaurant", I would happily slip an excellent server a tip. I think it's appropriate to tip for excellent, above and beyond service. I don't like the expectation that I tip no matter what.

Right. The notion that that tipping leads to better service is a pipe dream. A crappy server gets a crappy tip and they mumble under their breath "freaking cheapskate" rather than thinking "maybe I should have done a better job".

I don't think I've ever tipped much less than 20% and that includes some nights of pretty lousy service, especially recently. But society has banged into my head that leaving a poor tip means I'm the bad guy.

The tipping system exists because people have gotten used to it and for no other reason. I'm tired of the excuses that restaurants can't get by without underpaying their servers because every other country has figured out how to make that work. And further, FDR was clear about it when enacting minimum wage laws.

"It seems to me to be equally plain that no business which depends for existence on paying less than living wages to its workers has any right to continue in this country."

By the very definition of our wage laws, a business that cannot afford to pay the minimum wage while keeping prices competitive enough to attract customers is not a business that should exist.

I honestly don't know why restaurants and restaurants alone have been granted an exception to that foundation.

Good thoughts.

It's rare, but whenever I get genuinely crappy service I leave no tip at all. That way there's no confusion about the message.

Otherwise, 15% is my floor even if a little substandard (no judgment on others' approach).

Curious about the restaurant guys in here say on this but IMO, if I'm going to make a decision to stiff a server - which I've done maybe twice in my life - I let the manager know why I was doing it before leaving. A server will never improve without feedback and a manager should be coaching their servers on proper serving technique and what's expected at their restaurant. If I'm a manager, I want to know why my server got stiffed so I can help correct the problem.

My 2 cents....

 

[DA RAIDERS]

This has merged with the tipping thread I know. Not sure what can be done about having two threads now on the same topic.

A few years back when I had a conversation about the church crowd not tipping well, I made a decision to go 30% tip. All the time. Don't think about it. Good service or bad. I'll also say I almost always seem to get excellent service.

It's not compensating for my Christian friends, who apparently don't tip well. It's just what I do.

I look at it simply as a cost of eating out. If I can't afford to do 30%, I don't go out.

And in reality, it's not that much given the reality that the minimum I'd tip is 20%. So the question isn't really tipping $30 on a $100 bill. It's spending $10 more than the minimum I would have spent. In the grand scheme of things, it's just not that big a deal.

Second point, is it "right" that the system is such that servers effectively have part of their salary paid by the customers? And shouldn't we force the restaurant to pay the servers? I think you can maybe make the case that yes, that should be the case. I also know plenty of restaurant owners, and it's a brutally tough business with razor-thin margins. It's fun to rant on a message board that they're greedy and raking in money because noobs like me are too dumb to buck the system. That's not my experience with restaurant owners. Most I know work their butts off for little profit.

But even if I didn't empathize with restaurant owners, what am I to practically do about it tonight if I go out to dinner? The system works pretty well for me. The restaurant seems happy to have a customer, and the server I'm assuming is happy with 30%. And I get dinner. And can go on to bigger problems I need to tackle.

this is the way.

$80 tab throwing and extra $4 bucks on the 20% tip to make it $20 really makes a server's day. so $96 or $100 same thing for the 15%ers $92 vs $96 does it really matter to me? nope.

i also have zero issues tipping less if the server is terrible. and there's no guilt on the ridiculous requests from the auto prompters

Seems to me this is where the dreaded "tip creep" issue comes in.

Soon the 15/20/25 scale becomes 20/25/30 (if its not already) with accompanying confusion and no apparent rationale...and in another 20 years its 30/35/40 and on and on.

I would rather the restaurant owners step up if servers aren't getting paid enough.

Keep it simple and don't make customers constantly work to compensate for a broken business model.

not for me. i don't buy the tip creep concept. i've been in the industry for ever. 15% has been the baseline standard the entire time i've been doing it. that's adequate to good service. 20% is for excellent service. above that is people being nice.

margins are too thin for restaurants to be paying everyone a "living wage" no one would eat out if they passed those cost on to customers. let's do the math on 10 servers. what's livable? 30k, 40, 50? let's do 40K that's 400k a year. the same 10 servers at $10/hour at 40 hours a week(almost none work 40 hours) is 21K so nearly double. and that's just the front of the house. we'd be looking at $50+ burgers

What are the economics that more or less allows no tipping in Europe. Seem to be plenty of restaurants there and no staffing issues.

for the restaurants, costs are lower. fewer middle men. rent is cheaper. and the cost of living is lower

 

[DA RAIDERS]

One weird angle of the no tipping thing was we had a fantastic server at Union Square. Like top 10 ever. And it felt weird to leave them no tip. They were gracious about it and seemed to be sincere in saying it was included. But still did not feel right. Which was a little illuminating for me in I realized I liked to recognize the server that way. In restaurants where I'm a regular, I like the special service and free stuff I get. So there's a self serving part in it too. As I said, it's complicated.

Here's the thing (for me at least). If I were at a "no tipping restaurant", I would happily slip an excellent server a tip. I think it's appropriate to tip for excellent, above and beyond service. I don't like the expectation that I tip no matter what.

Right. The notion that that tipping leads to better service is a pipe dream. A crappy server gets a crappy tip and they mumble under their breath "freaking cheapskate" rather than thinking "maybe I should have done a better job".

I don't think I've ever tipped much less than 20% and that includes some nights of pretty lousy service, especially recently. But society has banged into my head that leaving a poor tip means I'm the bad guy.

The tipping system exists because people have gotten used to it and for no other reason. I'm tired of the excuses that restaurants can't get by without underpaying their servers because every other country has figured out how to make that work. And further, FDR was clear about it when enacting minimum wage laws.

"It seems to me to be equally plain that no business which depends for existence on paying less than living wages to its workers has any right to continue in this country."

By the very definition of our wage laws, a business that cannot afford to pay the minimum wage while keeping prices competitive enough to attract customers is not a business that should exist.

I honestly don't know why restaurants and restaurants alone have been granted an exception to that foundation.

Good thoughts.

It's rare, but whenever I get genuinely crappy service I leave no tip at all. That way there's no confusion about the message.

Otherwise, 15% is my floor even if a little substandard (no judgment on others' approach).

Curious about the restaurant guys in here say on this but IMO, if I'm going to make a decision to stiff a server - which I've done maybe twice in my life - I let the manager know why I was doing it before leaving. A server will never improve without feedback and a manager should be coaching their servers on proper serving technique and what's expected at their restaurant. If I'm a manager, I want to know why my server got stiffed so I can help correct the problem.

My 2 cents....

i've done the same. it's better than just leaving. just don't do it angrily. nothing will be passed on if one is yelling at the manager.

i've also given the entire tip to the busser in cash. and told the server and manager why i did so. because the busser rocked.

 

[culdeus]

This has merged with the tipping thread I know. Not sure what can be done about having two threads now on the same topic.

A few years back when I had a conversation about the church crowd not tipping well, I made a decision to go 30% tip. All the time. Don't think about it. Good service or bad. I'll also say I almost always seem to get excellent service.

It's not compensating for my Christian friends, who apparently don't tip well. It's just what I do.

I look at it simply as a cost of eating out. If I can't afford to do 30%, I don't go out.

And in reality, it's not that much given the reality that the minimum I'd tip is 20%. So the question isn't really tipping $30 on a $100 bill. It's spending $10 more than the minimum I would have spent. In the grand scheme of things, it's just not that big a deal.

Second point, is it "right" that the system is such that servers effectively have part of their salary paid by the customers? And shouldn't we force the restaurant to pay the servers? I think you can maybe make the case that yes, that should be the case. I also know plenty of restaurant owners, and it's a brutally tough business with razor-thin margins. It's fun to rant on a message board that they're greedy and raking in money because noobs like me are too dumb to buck the system. That's not my experience with restaurant owners. Most I know work their butts off for little profit.

But even if I didn't empathize with restaurant owners, what am I to practically do about it tonight if I go out to dinner? The system works pretty well for me. The restaurant seems happy to have a customer, and the server I'm assuming is happy with 30%. And I get dinner. And can go on to bigger problems I need to tackle.

this is the way.

$80 tab throwing and extra $4 bucks on the 20% tip to make it $20 really makes a server's day. so $96 or $100 same thing for the 15%ers $92 vs $96 does it really matter to me? nope.

i also have zero issues tipping less if the server is terrible. and there's no guilt on the ridiculous requests from the auto prompters

Seems to me this is where the dreaded "tip creep" issue comes in.

Soon the 15/20/25 scale becomes 20/25/30 (if its not already) with accompanying confusion and no apparent rationale...and in another 20 years its 30/35/40 and on and on.

I would rather the restaurant owners step up if servers aren't getting paid enough.

Keep it simple and don't make customers constantly work to compensate for a broken business model.

not for me. i don't buy the tip creep concept. i've been in the industry for ever. 15% has been the baseline standard the entire time i've been doing it. that's adequate to good service. 20% is for excellent service. above that is people being nice.

margins are too thin for restaurants to be paying everyone a "living wage" no one would eat out if they passed those cost on to customers. let's do the math on 10 servers. what's livable? 30k, 40, 50? let's do 40K that's 400k a year. the same 10 servers at $10/hour at 40 hours a week(almost none work 40 hours) is 21K so nearly double. and that's just the front of the house. we'd be looking at $50+ burgers

What are the economics that more or less allows no tipping in Europe. Seem to be plenty of restaurants there and no staffing issues.

for the restaurants, costs are lower. fewer middle men. rent is cheaper. and the cost of living is lower

What are you using to base this on? Highly doubt half of this is true enough to say they need to pay a buck a quarter an hour.

 

[FreeBaGeL]

for the restaurants, costs are lower. fewer middle men. rent is cheaper. and the cost of living is lower

This is exactly the reason that tipping subsidies for restaurants are so silly.

If the restaurant owners aren't making more money than they should be due to it, someone along the line is.

If it's true that the entire restaurant industry could not survive while paying its workers a living wage, as required by the basic tenants of our post-WW2 economy, don't you think rent and supplies and etc would go down and settle in at a spot where restaurants could still exist? That's how the whole economy works. Commercial building owners and restaurant suppliers would rather shave their margins a bit than have nothing but empty buildings and empty warehouses because the entire restaurant industry ceased to exist.

I'm sorry, but if this tipping setup had never happened way back when, and we operated our restaurants the same way as the rest of the world, the restaurant industry would still be just as alive and healthy right now.

 

[DA RAIDERS]

This has merged with the tipping thread I know. Not sure what can be done about having two threads now on the same topic.

A few years back when I had a conversation about the church crowd not tipping well, I made a decision to go 30% tip. All the time. Don't think about it. Good service or bad. I'll also say I almost always seem to get excellent service.

It's not compensating for my Christian friends, who apparently don't tip well. It's just what I do.

I look at it simply as a cost of eating out. If I can't afford to do 30%, I don't go out.

And in reality, it's not that much given the reality that the minimum I'd tip is 20%. So the question isn't really tipping $30 on a $100 bill. It's spending $10 more than the minimum I would have spent. In the grand scheme of things, it's just not that big a deal.

Second point, is it "right" that the system is such that servers effectively have part of their salary paid by the customers? And shouldn't we force the restaurant to pay the servers? I think you can maybe make the case that yes, that should be the case. I also know plenty of restaurant owners, and it's a brutally tough business with razor-thin margins. It's fun to rant on a message board that they're greedy and raking in money because noobs like me are too dumb to buck the system. That's not my experience with restaurant owners. Most I know work their butts off for little profit.

But even if I didn't empathize with restaurant owners, what am I to practically do about it tonight if I go out to dinner? The system works pretty well for me. The restaurant seems happy to have a customer, and the server I'm assuming is happy with 30%. And I get dinner. And can go on to bigger problems I need to tackle.

this is the way.

$80 tab throwing and extra $4 bucks on the 20% tip to make it $20 really makes a server's day. so $96 or $100 same thing for the 15%ers $92 vs $96 does it really matter to me? nope.

i also have zero issues tipping less if the server is terrible. and there's no guilt on the ridiculous requests from the auto prompters

Seems to me this is where the dreaded "tip creep" issue comes in.

Soon the 15/20/25 scale becomes 20/25/30 (if its not already) with accompanying confusion and no apparent rationale...and in another 20 years its 30/35/40 and on and on.

I would rather the restaurant owners step up if servers aren't getting paid enough.

Keep it simple and don't make customers constantly work to compensate for a broken business model.

not for me. i don't buy the tip creep concept. i've been in the industry for ever. 15% has been the baseline standard the entire time i've been doing it. that's adequate to good service. 20% is for excellent service. above that is people being nice.

margins are too thin for restaurants to be paying everyone a "living wage" no one would eat out if they passed those cost on to customers. let's do the math on 10 servers. what's livable? 30k, 40, 50? let's do 40K that's 400k a year. the same 10 servers at $10/hour at 40 hours a week(almost none work 40 hours) is 21K so nearly double. and that's just the front of the house. we'd be looking at $50+ burgers

What are the economics that more or less allows no tipping in Europe. Seem to be plenty of restaurants there and no staffing issues.

for the restaurants, costs are lower. fewer middle men. rent is cheaper. and the cost of living is lower

What are you using to base this on? Highly doubt half of this is true enough to say they need to pay a buck a quarter an hour.

35 years in the industry. i know many restaurant owners both here and in europe. i'm in CA, servers make 15.50/hour. livable? not really. and the restaurant model in the US is whack. very little is sourced locally. in CA, i'm selling alaskan halibut. beef from kansas. scallops from japan. etc..and don't forget the raspberries from new zealand in the winter because you gotta have those at all times. in positano italy, food is very reasonably priced for such an expensive area. one main reason is that most things are sourced locally. if i want good pork or lamb, it comes from 100's to 1000's of miles away.

oh and greed. greed plays a roll for sure

 

[Chemical X]

i can only speak to italy, but most places open for dinner at 7 or 7.30p and don’t turn tables. they basically have 1 seating and you can have your meal take 3 hours. many places are minimally staffed front of house and many are family owned and operated. the issue with the states vs italy IMO is that the states patrons are americans that demand everything. food in 15 minutes, bells and whistles, etc. in italy, you can get by with 1 server for a room of 30, if the expectation is that you know service will be slow. americans panic if everything isn’t immediate. so we need a waiter, a busboy, a food runner, a broccoli chef, a dish washer, a napkin folder, a food chewer, etc. so many more people on staff at a US restaurant IMO and it isn’t family working for peanuts. only way to get these people money is by tipping. but man, i pay sometimes 50-60% less in italy than here. of course that includes alcohol. an aperol spritz in italy is around $6, i’ve paid upwards of $15 here. bottle of wine out here baseline is likely $30, i can get that in italy for $10. atmosphere and culture are night and day. i do think a lot of it is also food costs. i mean, italy is basically a giant farm…..sourcing items means going to a market in the morning instead of having US Foods deliver me something that came from someone from someone else thru some company.

 

[The Z Machine]

Thanks, @DA RAIDERS .

Like I said above, I'd prefer worse service (at times) over the system we have now. It's opaque and unjust.

I'm not saying restaurant owners and managers are getting rich. I know margins are slim and the cost of food has gone up a bunch. I'm not saying they are greedy.

What I am saying is that this system sucks and is dumb and we should all recognize that and say it together. People should be paid a wage from their employer. That wage should be commensurate with the value they bring to the business. It should not be subsidized by the end customer that buys the product + service.

Let's say I'm developing a new widget and that widget needs a lithium ion battery. I use this example because it's what I do. I contact a few suppliers who come to my office and give sales pitches and demos. I agree to buy 100000 batteries from one of them at $2 each and write a PO for $200k. Now I'm sure that this guy gets a commission for doing his sales job. Great. That's between him and his employer. But there isn't a line on the PO where I write in an arbitrary amount above the agreed cost of goods for the excellent service this guy provided. He drove to my office, gave me free samples, demo'd the product and handled the financial transaction, all with a smile. That's a lot of work!

Why is answering questu9ns anout the menu, taking an order correctly, serving food made by the back of house, handling the bill, and maybe busing the plates so different?

 

[DA RAIDERS]

for the restaurants, costs are lower. fewer middle men. rent is cheaper. and the cost of living is lower

This is exactly the reason that tipping subsidies for restaurants are so silly.

If the restaurant owners aren't making more money than they should be due to it, someone along the line is.

If it's true that the entire restaurant industry could not survive while paying its workers a living wage, as required by the basic tenants of our post-WW2 economy, don't you think rent and supplies and etc would go down and settle in at a spot where restaurants could still exist? That's how the whole economy works. Commercial building owners and restaurant suppliers would rather shave their margins a bit than have nothing but empty buildings and empty warehouses because the entire restaurant industry ceased to exist.

I'm sorry, but if this tipping setup had never happened way back when, and we operated our restaurants the same way as the rest of the world, the restaurant industry would still be just as alive and healthy right now.

The toothpaste is so far out of the tube on this, the tube doesn’t even say toothpaste anymore.

Are you going to be the property owner that slashes rent? The food purveyor that drops Costs? Trucker that lowers rates. Gas conglomerate that lowers prices? It’s just not going to happen.

 

[Capella]

I can't speak to the history of how restaurants were granted this loophole. Why it became this way or whether or not it's right, I can't speak to that.

But restaurants are certainly unique. There are a lot of service industries that share similarities, but still, restaurants are unique.
Restaurants are both "non-essential" and "absolutely essential" at the same time.

They provide 2 things we absolutely need as human beings. Nourishment and community/human connection. There are obviously ways to get both of those things without restaurants (3 years ago we were told that, in no uncertain terms).

But day-by-day, city-by-city, I don't think there's any other industry that provides nourishment and community to the masses with the consistency that restaurants do.

It's a unique industry where they need to stand by, paying overhead, pre-ordering and pre-prepping highly perishable ingredients waiting to feed the masses. Provide an environment where folks can come, sit down and eat with their loved ones and do nothing else. Think of all the work that goes into grilling out with a crowd at your home. The days of prep leading up to it. The absolutely horrible clean-up afterwards. Restaurants do that awful routine every day.

I say this as someone who almost never eats at a restaurant. I pretty much hate going out to eat. I've been forcing myself to do it more lately, but I recently went almost 5 years without eating at a restaurant. When I do, I stick to a few places where I just really like the work ethic of the staff and really just go to leave a big tip as part of my giving plan.

I bring that up because, personally, I agree. The whole system is ridiculous. We really don't need restaurants (by "we", I mean "me").

But working in a restaurant, I see that we really do. When the pandemic hit, I thought the entire industry was going to hell. But people need nourishment and community. And as of now, nobody provides that like restaurants.

That's probably all really off-topic. I don't know if it's right or if there's a way to change it. It just is. The industry stumbles along.

It's a unique industry. IMO, deserving of a little different system.

But I don't know. I'm getting up again here in a few hours at 3AM so folks can eat and have a sense of community. If there's a ground swell to change the system, that's fine. Just give me some time to adjust because I don't have much of it.

Preach.

For a ton of restaurants, it's about way more than the food.

I sure hope all of us posting in here have watched The Bear. IMO, that's the best show to come out in years and hits on a lot of this - it's not just the food.

Finished season 2 last night. Incredible show.