matuski
Footballguy
I am also changing my position somewhat on the hardline quitting stance.
I want to see the box score, because the story doesn't add up upon inspection to me.
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Running Up The Score / Sportsmanship in HS Sports (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter Anarchy99
- Start date
I want to see the box score, because the story doesn't add up upon inspection to me.
Tom Servo
Nittany Beavers
Perhaps you missed the part where @Anarchy99 said his starters were gassed. If they have no more to give, you sub them out.
matuski
Footballguy
Tom Servo
Nittany Beavers
Assuming what OP said is true about the starters being toast, does that change your stance on the OPs team quitting?
matuski
Footballguy
No - as he didn't simply sub players out. He didn't put in backups to rest the starters.
^ That is giving up.
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Anarchy99
Footballguy
To fill in the gaps here, the deficit was 12 when the other team hit a 3 to make it a 15 point game. So I was off by 3. Our head coach saw the writing on the wall that he wasn’t going to win, was frustrated that whomever he put in wasn’t listening or guarding people closely enough, and then yanked everyone off the court.
The other team has a rotation of when they substitute players, and they typically pull their starters for a minute or two midway in the 4th quarter to have their big guns fresh for crunch time. Maybe they were due to come back in and he was going to stick to his rotation. But the game was in hand and he didn’t need to put in his starters again.
The press was the odd part, as it would have made way more sense to do that when we had our regular players in the game. Maybe there plan moving forward is to pressure the ball at the end of the game each night. They haven’t done that in the past, so I wouldn’t think so.
The opposing coach was interviewed after the game and said he always wants to keep the intensity up for 32 minutes. He did mention that last year we held them to scoring in the 30’s and he wanted his team to push themselves to get into the 70’s each game.
They don’t really have boxscores as far as I know. It was a 6 point game at the half that quickly got up to 15 and pretty much stayed in the 10-15 point range.
I asked my son about if the coach really wanted to pass to the other team and he said he thought so but he wasn’t sure if he meant it or if he was being sarcastic.
The team rankings don’t really matter, as the playoff seedinga are based on records at the end of the year.
The other team has a rotation of when they substitute players, and they typically pull their starters for a minute or two midway in the 4th quarter to have their big guns fresh for crunch time. Maybe they were due to come back in and he was going to stick to his rotation. But the game was in hand and he didn’t need to put in his starters again.
The press was the odd part, as it would have made way more sense to do that when we had our regular players in the game. Maybe there plan moving forward is to pressure the ball at the end of the game each night. They haven’t done that in the past, so I wouldn’t think so.
The opposing coach was interviewed after the game and said he always wants to keep the intensity up for 32 minutes. He did mention that last year we held them to scoring in the 30’s and he wanted his team to push themselves to get into the 70’s each game.
They don’t really have boxscores as far as I know. It was a 6 point game at the half that quickly got up to 15 and pretty much stayed in the 10-15 point range.
I asked my son about if the coach really wanted to pass to the other team and he said he thought so but he wasn’t sure if he meant it or if he was being sarcastic.
The team rankings don’t really matter, as the playoff seedinga are based on records at the end of the year.
Short Corner
Footballguy
I don't think so. Score shouldn't matter if they are getting shots in the flow of their offense.
So in about 2 minutes they pressed with their starters to blow out by 30 pts at the end.Anarchy99 said:
EYLive
Footballguy
the moops
Footballguy
I think you would be hard pressed to find many instances of coaches subbing their starters back in against the losing teams scrubs in the last 2 minutes of a game when the game is decided. And you know why? Cause it's a #### move
Joe Summer
Footballguy
How many times in the modern history of college basketball has a DIII team overcome a 12 point deficit against a power 5 team with 2 minutes to go?
Short Corner
Footballguy
EYLive
Footballguy
I'm not a basketball coaching historian, but apparently there are plenty of you experts here. You guys seem to be pretty emotional about how the losing team was wronged. How do the high school kids feel about it? Cuz the coach and adults involved are crying pretty hard about someone else's sportsmanship. Why even compete if you're gonna weep bitterly over how other people coach?
TakiToki
Footballguy
I wonder if Team B was constantly flopping with the coach whining to the refs, or some other type of behavior that ticked off Team A.
In any event, Team A's coach is certainly a poor sport and Team B's coach is a terrible sport. From this incident, it sounds like they deserve each other, and I hope the players' parents are teaching them to not follow in their coaches' footsteps.
In any event, Team A's coach is certainly a poor sport and Team B's coach is a terrible sport. From this incident, it sounds like they deserve each other, and I hope the players' parents are teaching them to not follow in their coaches' footsteps.
Tom Servo
Nittany Beavers
![[scooter]](/data/avatars/m/22/22287.jpg?1659477690){kind=avatar}
[scooter]
Footballguy
Anarchy99
Footballguy
There are a handful of kids that are listed on both the varsity and JV rosters. They 95% of the time practice and play on JV but apparently sometimes a couple dress and watch the varsity game from the bench. I think there are 5 or 6 of them and they rotate. Hard to tell what the plan is after only one regular season game.
These are not D-1 college football rosters with 100 kids on the field. I believe you can have 15 kids suited up for a game, and that's all the league really cares about. There roster 12 full time varsity players and they rotate the other 3 spots.
The rankings are a media invention intended to get clicks or readers. There are 4 hoops divisions and the media rankings incorporate teams across all divisions. As I already mentioned, the only thing that matters for the playoff tournament at the end of the season is your in-division record. They don't keep track of other other games (tournaments, out of division games, etc.). A team could be ranked 4th in the state but have the 10th best record and would be seeded 10th in the tournament.
I asked my son about how the kids feel and he said they mostly said WHATEVER. They weren't expecting to win, and losing by 15 or 30 is still a loss and a don't care. Last year they lost against this team on a buzzer beater after playing a great game, and that loss stung way more than this one. They are moving on to their home opener tomorrow . . . against a team even better than the one they just played. The schedule doesn't do them any favors, playing 2 of the top 3 teams to start the season. They probably won't fare any better in this game. The team they are facing just beat the back-to-back-to-back state champions by 38.
Anarchy99
Footballguy
Why is this such a revelation and/or newsworthy? The kids pretty much get to sit on the bench and watch after just playing a full game. I would say the equivalent of pawns, but even that would be giving them too much credit. If they ever see time in a varsity game it will be at the end of a blowout for a minute or two. And those kids only practice with the JV team, so in some ways it really isn't doing much for them. They aren't practicing or playing against better competition. They get to tell their friends they got to sit on the bench for varsity. Or they can say they gave up a ton of points because they couldn't inbound the ball against a swarming press.
They started doing the JV/varsity hybrid concept last year, and one kid actually didn't play much on either team. The varsity coach wouldn't play him and the JV coach didn't really want him either. So he mostly rode the pine for 4 hours on game night and dressed for both squads. The way it used to work is that if the varsity coach wanted someone from the JV team he would just promote him. Sort of like the practice squad in the NFL.
I am pretty sure in my area if you play in the JV game you are not eligible to play in a varsity game on the same day. I find this very strange from a coaching perspective that your coach does this. I can understand bringing up some JV players if the JV did not have a game that day to get them some game day vibes at the varsity level but not if they just played 5 minutes before in the JV game.
We would bring JV players up to the varsity roster for state playoffs but that was after the regular season concluded and there was no JV season left. It was a reward for working hard all season as well as some extra bodies for practice.
JV is the minor league for the varsity. All lower levels should be grooming players to eventually play at the varsity level. That is their purpose. It is exactly like the minor leagues for MLB or a practice squad for NFL.
dino259
Footballguy
I feel like there was a limit on the total number of quarters you could play. I think it was 5?
This was a regular occurance. Maybe happens more in smaller schools to help spread out specialist. Maybe a JV player is good at defense and you want to use him in certain spots or maybe a good outside shooter or maybe a big lug that has 5 fouls to use. They get to play JV to not let them high and dry.
All around doesn't sound like good coaching from either team.
Short Corner
Footballguy
That sounds like an Oregon rule. Power teams like Lake Oswego would allow their best frosh/soph players to play a quarter in the JV game then play all four in the varsity.
Most states have a game limit that applies to the individual player and the team. Younger players can bounce back and forth in CA, at least they could when I was there, in the preseason but once league started, once a kid played up he was locked in to Varsity.
In California you can bounce between levels all you want during the season at any time provided you don't play on two levels the same day. You couldn't play a JV game and then suit up for the Varsity game. It was one or the other but that can change by day. So Tuesday you could play JV, Wednesday Varsity, Thursday JV, and Friday Varsity. There was no limit of jumping back and forth and it doesn't matter between league or pre-season either.
Seniors could only play Varsity but all other grades could play JV or Varsity. Some schools would go with a Soph-Frosh instead of JV and then that eliminated Juniors from being eligible for that team.
Short Corner
Footballguy
California has gotten weird in that they allow the Sections and leagues to pretty much self govern in certain areas. Each section has a different date for when you are allowed to start practice and the moving up and down may be league specific. Even in leagues that allow jumping, my guess is that CIF will hard cap the player to 24 games played before the post-season. Game limits is an area where they have become more strict than in the past.
Bull Dozier
Footballguy
Haven't read the whole thread but I'm reminded of a passage in a Lou Holtz book I read. He was butthurt after losing to FSU once early in his coaching career and thought his friend Bobby Bowden ran the score up on him. He confronted Bowden at midfield after the game about why he did that. Bowden answered simply, "you can coach your team however your want, but you can't coach my team too." That's paraphrasing of course.
The lesson Holtz took was to stop worrying about the other coach, and how he was coaching and if he was doing the right thing or not. He just focused on his own team and how he was leading them.
The winning coach here may have been right or wrong, there's a gray area particularly since we don't know all the details or reasons for good decisions (though I will definitely lean towards him being a poor sport).
But the losing coach was definitely in the wrong. As soon as you start confronting the other coach about their tactics, as long as they are legal, you are losing focus on what your job is. As others have said, he should have taken the opportunity to teach his kids how to deal with adversity and difficult people, and not modeled behavior of being spoiled or a poor sport yourself.
The lesson Holtz took was to stop worrying about the other coach, and how he was coaching and if he was doing the right thing or not. He just focused on his own team and how he was leading them.
The winning coach here may have been right or wrong, there's a gray area particularly since we don't know all the details or reasons for good decisions (though I will definitely lean towards him being a poor sport).
But the losing coach was definitely in the wrong. As soon as you start confronting the other coach about their tactics, as long as they are legal, you are losing focus on what your job is. As others have said, he should have taken the opportunity to teach his kids how to deal with adversity and difficult people, and not modeled behavior of being spoiled or a poor sport yourself.
Jayrod
Footballguy
Had an interesting situation occur around here last week.
One of the smaller schools in the area has four sophomores that start and are extremely good for their level. Three of the players are the head coach's triplet sons (the 4th is their cousin and the best player of the 4). During a tournament championship game, videos surfaced on social media of them twice having the wrong triplet go to the line to attempt free throws in what eventually was a 2 point win for them. I'm assuming the one they sent to the line was the better FT shooter of the three.
Our supervisor of officials here sent out an email this morning that if we catch a team deliberately attempting to do this, we are to assess 3 technical fouls and shoot 6 FT's. One to each of the players involved and one to the coach.
I officiated a game for this team last year in a tournament when the players were all Freshman. The head coach and I butted heads a few times in a game they ultimately lost. I wouldn't have guessed they would do something like this on purpose, but it wouldn't surprise me either.
One of the smaller schools in the area has four sophomores that start and are extremely good for their level. Three of the players are the head coach's triplet sons (the 4th is their cousin and the best player of the 4). During a tournament championship game, videos surfaced on social media of them twice having the wrong triplet go to the line to attempt free throws in what eventually was a 2 point win for them. I'm assuming the one they sent to the line was the better FT shooter of the three.
Our supervisor of officials here sent out an email this morning that if we catch a team deliberately attempting to do this, we are to assess 3 technical fouls and shoot 6 FT's. One to each of the players involved and one to the coach.
I officiated a game for this team last year in a tournament when the players were all Freshman. The head coach and I butted heads a few times in a game they ultimately lost. I wouldn't have guessed they would do something like this on purpose, but it wouldn't surprise me either.
Jayrod
Footballguy
Yes, but the refs didn't catch it. We are supposed to, but it isn't too difficult to lose track of the shooter as usually the emphasis is on reporting the foul on the correct player. The other officials are supposed to try and help with that, but the way they did it was to quickly get together in some kind of huddle. Plus you really aren't on the lookout for something like this.
Tom Skerritt
Footballguy
Cjw_55106
Footballguy
In our area, the JV/Varsity roster is the same for basketball. Oddly, that's the only sport that does this (I believe). In any case, kids are allowed a certain number of quarters and varsity starters would never play in a JV game.
General Malaise
Footballguy
[scooter]
Footballguy
Is the "6 free throw" thing part of the official rules, or did the supervisor just make it up on his own?
Jayrod
Footballguy
3 separate technicals would award 6 free throws by rule.
ETA: I've seen 4 FT's shot on a player and coach technical before.
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Short Corner
Footballguy
Jayrod
Footballguy
Yes, he addressed the mechanics in the email, but blatantly cheating deserves an excessive punishment.
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General Malaise
Footballguy
Again, shouldn't the league have sanctions for this coach? If you caught it on video and it's indisputable, why isn't the league handing down punishment?
Mr. Know-It-All
Footballguy
I am trying to remember but in baseball (at least here in Nebraska) - a kid can play both JV and Varsity on the same day but pitching limits are cumulative and you can play a maximum of two games in a day. So lets say you are a JV player that suits up for Varsity and you play in the JV game - you could only participate in one game of the Varsity Doubleheader that same day. For the most part around here though - few kids play both JV and Varsity except at the end of the season as a reward (a call up if you will). Playing both takes away from the development of the other JV players and if you are not good enough to significantly contribute at Varsity they would rather you continue to develop at JV instead of riding the pine at Varsity.
Zegras11
Footballguy
Jayrod
Footballguy
It is under Missouri State High School Athletic Association. Saw one report that they were looking into it, but wouldn't vacate the win or anything.
Jayrod
Footballguy
General Malaise
Footballguy
Well, now that it's gone national, I'm sure more focus will be given to the coach of this team who did it. Not a good look for the league.
parrot
Footballguy
Yes, five quarters is pretty typical. In Montana, Class C (smallest class) actually gets 6 quarters. It's not so much to "spread out a specialist" as it is to get younger kids game reps while also being able to field a decent size bench. We have 18 kids in our program and field 3 teams, often all on the same day. It's kind of essential that they "swing" between the teams.
Jayrod
Footballguy
Don't know that "the league" will care one way or the other on what the public at large thinks. MSHSAA tends to be about what is best for the students and the game. I am not aware of any particular groups they are beholden to. The coach might get a reprimand from the state and all of the officials that work their games will now be on the lookout for these shenanigans. That is all I see coming from it, honestly.
General Malaise
Footballguy
So a coach of a public high school can cheat in the state of Missouri and face no ramifications? Interesting.Jayrod said:
Good luck, ref.
