5Rings
Lurker
hey Gunz, you've twice made comments like the bolded. can you unpack that a bit? thanks
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Ryan Mathews & Mike Tolbert, RBs, San Diego Chargers (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter Jason Wood
- Start date
I agree.
tommyGunZ
Footballguy
True, but no one else in the NFL will have LT's annual workload either.From that piece, the first 3 sentences speak volumes:
It's obvious that Acee is attempting to make it clear who is first in line.
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So, the general consensus here is that Tolbert is the value pick later on in drafts (from what I can tell).
Not to veer off topic, but does anyone see Todman effecting their touches at all? Anyone with info on intentions for Todman's use could be helpful here, remember we don't have sproles anymore!
Not to veer off topic, but does anyone see Todman effecting their touches at all? Anyone with info on intentions for Todman's use could be helpful here, remember we don't have sproles anymore!
tommyGunZ
Footballguy
It's a culmination of what I've read locally over the past 6-8 months, i.e. quotes from players/coaches/front office to analysis of the RB roles from beat writers/reporters. The SD Front Office traded up to get Mathews and their opinion hasn't changed after a couple of injuries in his rookie year; obviously they want Mathews on the field as they're the ones who evaluated him and paid a hefty price to get him. Rivers and Turner have mentioned in numerous interviews how Mathews is their potential game breaker and how it was unfortunate that injuries got in the way last year. Rivers actually compared the situation to a few years back when the Bolts had LT and Turner, comparing Mathews to LT and Tolbert to being the change of pace guy like Turner. Again, anything can happen. I just want everyone to know that Mathews is getting first dibs on the feature back role. If he flourishes, Tolbert's role won't be nearly what some who are declaring "full blown RBBC" think it will be.
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Insoxicated
-jb-
Footballguy
Seems to go against what Waldman thinks of his prospects.
Was your Mathews glass half full when you read that or is it still half empty? I'm not sure what we're supposed to take from a 2 year old article.
half empty and it didnt change that. even though it is 2 years old it gives insight into Mathews psyche imo
tommyGunZ
Footballguy
My understanding of the "conditioning test" that Mathews "failed" was unofficial, unannounced, and not nearly as big of a deal as it's being made out to be. It's actually great for those targeting Mathews as it's hurting his value.Here's Acee's article on the "failed" test:
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The psyche of a 21 yo doesn't change? Maybe rushing 276 times in 2009 made a difference.
RBM
Footballguy
First in line. Thats the key. It seems like the ball is in Mathews' court. He will be first in line, and his play on the field will dictate how much of a committee this turns out to be. If the kid lives up to his potential, he will carry the load. If he falters, we will probably see an even split.'tommyGunZ said:True, but no one else in the NFL will have LT's annual workload either.From that piece, the first 3 sentences speak volumes:
It's obvious that Acee is attempting to make it clear who is first in line.
tommyGunZ
Footballguy
Yep. In order for Tolbert to have value, Mathews will have to fail first. He may. I just want folks talking RBBC to know that it won't be that way to start the season.First in line. Thats the key. It seems like the ball is in Mathews' court. He will be first in line, and his play on the field will dictate how much of a committee this turns out to be. If the kid lives up to his potential, he will carry the load. If he falters, we will probably see an even split.'tommyGunZ said:True, but no one else in the NFL will have LT's annual workload either.From that piece, the first 3 sentences speak volumes:
It's obvious that Acee is attempting to make it clear who is first in line.
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Gr00vus
Footballguy
Disagree. It's amazing how people can come to completely different conclusions from the same information. Norv's been saying over and over again they're both going to see significant action. They're not going to make the same mistake they made running Tomlinson into the ground while they had Turner.I figure Matthews will end up around 200 carries, 1000 yards combined, 30 receptions, <= 7 total TDs.
He looked very good in his few reps last Thursday.
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Gr00vus
Footballguy
I need to see more of him. He didn't blow me away Thursday. He showed good straight line ability, but on most of his touches he was getting to the second level of the defense with no resistance. I didn't see anything like moves, cutting ability, vision, etc. He got through the holes quick, and he didn't drop any targets, but he didn't make me forget about Sproles in any way.'krugoh said:
RBM
Footballguy
So just like what happened last season....very creative
T with T
Footballguy
'tommyGunZ said:
I don't get why so many people are saying he is soft and will get hurt again just because of a couple injuries from his rookie season.. All the haters will be sad they didn't draft him, because I feel a huge season for Matthews... more like 250-270 carries for Matthews 120-140 for tolbert.... Matthews is a beast 
tommyGunZ
Footballguy
I'm not saying Tolbert won't get touches, I'm just saying it isn't RBBC. What's your opinion on Acee Groovus? Not a big fan?
PahtyTom
Footballguy
I like Todman. He can be a very effective NFL rb. Mathews has a lot of competition and needs to get his stuff together.
Gr00vus
Footballguy
I think Acee is fantastic for inside info, but his opinions don't always seem to hit the mark.I also don't understand how you can say it isn't RBBC when that's exactly what it was last year, and that's exactly what the coaches and players are saying it's going to be this year. Logically it makes sense to utilize Tolbert to a decent degree to keep the mileage and pounding off Matthews so they can have him around when it counts and for a longer career. Tolbert has skills, if the Chargers want to win consistently it more than makes sense to capitalize on them. They're not playing FF, they're not trying to win someone the TD record or anything this year. If they don't make it to the SB I think it's a fail and Norv and maybe A.J. could be done in SD. Sharing the load at RB will lead to more success for them by keeping both runners active and healthy and playing to their respective strengths.
T with T
Footballguy
It doesn't matter if they play ffootball or not, the fact is that N. Turner doesn't use many RBBC, and Last year Matthews was the clear cut starter until injury. Even after Matthews came back he was the Clear cut starter. Of course Tolbert will get some carries but matthews is gonna get every chance to carry a Large part of the load, at least enough to make him a top 10 in ppr if he stays healthy. People need to wake up and realize how turner uses his backs... Just think Sproles who had over 60 catches, is also gone this year so that will give Tolbert a few more touches. Like I said though, they plan to use Matthews as the Feature back with Tolbert/Todman sprinkled in.'Gr00vus said:
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Insoxicated
Games where both playedCarries by Tolbert/Matthews:
09/13: 2 / 20 - Matthews clear starter09/19: 16/5 - Matthews goes down
....
10/03: 16/9 - Tolbert more carries
10/10: 12/9 - Tolbert more carries
10/17: 3/12 - Matthews more carries
10/24: 2/8 - Matthews more carries
10/31: 11/15 - Matthews slightly more carries
11/07: 8/9 - Even - Matthews down again
....
12/12: 16/16 - Even
12/15: 17/17 - Even
12/26: 4/12 - Matthews more carries
107/122 carries in games where both backs played.
Does Matthews come with more upside? Of course.
Does he come with substantially more risk? Given his history and out of condition, most definitely.
Matthews requires a 3rd round pick (Bradshaw/Greene/DeAngelo/etc) and is as superior talent at running the ball. He's also proven fragile thus far in his career and is a real risk to produce 0 points for one more weeks during the season.
Tolbert can be had ~5 rounds later and could produce at a fairly close level given his goalline duties. In addition you have far less risk of injury and better than average chance of striking gold due to a matthews injury.
Matthews is shooting for the moon but IMO I'd handicap him with Tolbert if I burned that early of a pick on him. Depends on how much you like to gamble I suppose. I'll pass personally but don't fault those who believe in the gy.
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Gr00vus
Footballguy
How did Sproles get 60 catches if Norv didn't use RBBC? I mean, according to your thinking, since Norv doesn't use RBBC, either Tolbert or Sproles should have gotten most of the touches for RBs while Matthews was hurt, right? Also, planning on Matthews not being injured seems like a bad idea. Additionally, Norv himself is saying he's changing up his approach to allocating time to his RBs and that he's going to spread the work around. Ignore all that if you want, but I'm pretty sure a top 10 RB finish for Matthews is not likely. This guy isn't Emmitt Smith or LaDainian Tomlinson, never will be either - thing is we don't know if he's even Stephen Davis yet, and Tolbert has skills that are of use in game situations that demand a non trivial amount of plays.Put it this way, if you draft Matthews in the 3rd round, you're pretty much drafting him at his ceiling, value wise. I'm not saying that's an awful decision, but expecting 1st or probably even 2nd round production out of him is most likely a wish that will not be fulfilled.
Gr00vus
Footballguy
tommyGunZ
Footballguy
Mathews ceiling is a 3rd Round value? I now see why we view this situation differently gb; we have dramatically different views of Mathews' potential in this offense. Reasonable minds can disagree.But you're wrong.
Gr00vus
Footballguy
But you're wrong.
If everybody agreed on all this stuff FF wouldn't be much fun, would it?As a Charger fan, I hope Matthews is the second coming of Eric Dickerson. But I'm not expecting it (or anything close to it really). I think injury and/or timeshare to mitigate injury/longevity risk and capitalize on what Tolbert does have to offer will limit his upside.
NBusiness
Footballguy
That was a great run. But all his other runs were garbage. He had holes to hit and couldn't get through them and ran into piles. Seems like dude needs to build up speed to make things happen. He doesn't really have quickness in the hole or any shiftiness. He's more of a build up speed and kinda circle cuts around people guy.
I pretty much agree with this. I wanted to be impressed, but didn't really see it, though that TD run was very nice. I think he has some more work to do.
Gopher State
Footballguy
But on his other runs he looked slow and lost. Even a blind rat finds the cheese once in a while
shader
Footballguy
You have to look at the body of work, not just one run. I'll never forget the Titans 2nd rounder Chris Henry and one of his first NFL carries. After a training camp of running into the back of his Olinemen, early on he got a carry and made an absolutely amazing 20 yard touchdown run in a regular season game. It showcased his power and speed, and probably sent fantasy owners scurrying to their computers to pick him up.But it really made no difference because apparently Chris Henry was blind and just happened to find that one seam in which he could make a big play.Obviously Mathews has more talent than that, but the point is the same. You can't just take the highlights, you have to watch ALL the action.It surprises me that Tolbert's red zone fumbles go almost unnoticed. He fumbled at least 3 times in the RZ last year, fumbled last night at the 5 yard line. If this was Houston, GK would have given him the hook long ago.
Matthews has done just about nothing in 1 full year. He was unimpressive before and after the injury last year. He will get every opportunity this year to shine and he clearly had Top 10 draft talent...so maybe he turns a corner. He is a good guy to nab in drafts because his risk is high. High risk players= first or last place finishes in your leagues. That's a good thing. Nothing worse than finishing middle of the pack.
Todman should start to be mentioned in these threads as he has been already a few times here. He has a respectable chance to be the starter in 2012 and late this year (maybe 20% chance? ...he will have to take a Ray Rice styled pathway to the starting lineup). He can run between the tackles and can catch the ball. They were clearly trying to test him last night on his screen pass timing and he did exceptionally well. He will not see the light of day for a while. I cant imagine they'll insert him as the third down back unless you start hearing positive comments from the coaching staff about his blocking.
Matthews has done just about nothing in 1 full year. He was unimpressive before and after the injury last year. He will get every opportunity this year to shine and he clearly had Top 10 draft talent...so maybe he turns a corner. He is a good guy to nab in drafts because his risk is high. High risk players= first or last place finishes in your leagues. That's a good thing. Nothing worse than finishing middle of the pack.
Todman should start to be mentioned in these threads as he has been already a few times here. He has a respectable chance to be the starter in 2012 and late this year (maybe 20% chance? ...he will have to take a Ray Rice styled pathway to the starting lineup). He can run between the tackles and can catch the ball. They were clearly trying to test him last night on his screen pass timing and he did exceptionally well. He will not see the light of day for a while. I cant imagine they'll insert him as the third down back unless you start hearing positive comments from the coaching staff about his blocking.
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Raiderfan32904
Footballguy
Me too!Really enjoyed scarfing up Tolbert as a RB4/RB5 laaaaate in all my drafts this weekend.
Lott's Fingertip
Footballguy
When the Chargers were inside the ten yard line on the play that went for a TD to the TE, it was Matthews that was inserted in place of Tolbert, and on the 4th and one play, it was Mathews in there instead of Tolbert again. The run went to the upback, but it interesting nonetheless.
Blackjacks
Footballguy
Keep on hating. I got Ryan Mathews in the 4th round this weekend and hope to get him again in the 4th this Thurs night.
Anyone can see that him and Tolbert have a big difference in talent when they are on the field. I thought Mathews moved the pile very good last night and looked good in pass coverage whihc is always imprtant for a young back. I still think Tolbert will get td's cause he did that very good last year but I do see Mathews getting 75% of the carries and eventually gain the trust to get some of those red zone td's.
Anyone can see that him and Tolbert have a big difference in talent when they are on the field. I thought Mathews moved the pile very good last night and looked good in pass coverage whihc is always imprtant for a young back. I still think Tolbert will get td's cause he did that very good last year but I do see Mathews getting 75% of the carries and eventually gain the trust to get some of those red zone td's.
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joffer
Footballguy
tommyGunZ
Footballguy
Disagree (obviously). He was not called upon to shoulder the load last year when he wasnt injured. He played shared/spot duty b/c that's all he earned.
[*]Showed up out of shape and failed the conditioning test
[*]Obviously the injuries were a problem
[*]10+ carries only 7 times; he couldnt beat out Tolbert for carries when both were healthy
[*]Didnt get the GL carries. If you listened to Tolbert's live interview this afternoon, MT is clearly still the GL back. Not going to change. As a matter of fact, MT wanted RM to finish the drive last night when he hadnt yet been called a Td, but the coaches were insisting MT go in. It seems unlikely he'll match his 7 TDs from last year
[*]Pass blocking was a big problem
[*]Fumbled five times
So when I say he did just about nothing, that means it wasnt absolutely nothing. The runs against the Bengals and Broncos were good and some flashes were shown...so sure, I'll grant you that. But even RM's biggest supporters, including his teammates this afternoon, said his rookie year was a disappointment.
footballnerd
Footballguy
very interested to see what Mathews does as my RB3/RB4. people were passing on him like the plague until i said screw it, I'll take him at the bottom of the 5th.'[icon] said:Really enjoyed scarfing up Tolbert as a RB4/RB5 laaaaate in all my drafts this weekend.
Tau837
Footballguy
This is false. Mathews sustained a high ankle sprain late in the first quarter of game 2 last year, and he wasn't fully healthy the rest of the season. Up until the point of the injury, he had 25 carries, and other Chargers RBs had 8. That's 76% of the carries. I think that qualifies as being called upon to "shoulder the load."
Mr Rodgers neighborhood
Footballguy
He was also playing with a dinged up elbow/shoulder, correct? I remember he had a crazy brace on his arm. The guy played his first game in monsoon like conditions in KC of all places, then gets hurt and isn't close to 100% for the vast majority of the year. I though he looked like what everyone thought he was at this point last year. Tolbert on the other hand, didn't. I still think Mathews is a far better talent and that the time share won't be what people are thinking as the year progresses.
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