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Shanahan or Cowher (1 Viewer)
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Ghost Rider
Footballguy
Can Bill Cowher finally win a playoff game on the road? Odds are he will get his chance in less than two weeks.
SSOG
Moderator
Fans in town are livid. Their coach has been around for 8 years since winning back-to-back Superbowls, and hasn't won a playoff game yet. That's right, ladies and gentlemen, this guy who ranks in the top 5 in wins in his first 10 seasons with a team, and who won back-to-back superbowls while putting up the best 3-season winning percentage the sport of football has ever seen, has clearly lost his touch. It is time to get rid of this coach who has clearly done all that he can do. He is essentially an above-average coach, and will never amount to anything more.Am I talking about Mike Shanahan, circa 2005? Nope, I'm talking about Don Shula, circa 1982. Yup, the winningest coach in NFL history, after winning back-to-back SBs, went 0-4 in the playoffs in his next 8 seasons. The rest of the parrallels are uncanny, too. Shula ranks 2nd in history in wins in his first 10 seasons with a team, and won the SB in his 3rd and 4th seasons after suffering a major disappointment in his 2nd. Shanahan is 3rd in wins and won the SB in his 3rd and 4th seasons after suffering a major disappointment in his 2nd. Shula's 1972-1974 Dolphins had the most wins in a 3-season span in NFL history until Shanahan's 1996-1998 Denver Broncos knocked them off the charts. Fans of both coaches were beginning to question whether they had lost their touch, despite both posting only a single losing season (6-8 for Shula, 6-10 for Shanny) in their tenure, both in a season where they were dealing with major personnel losses with the departure of several future HoFers. Don Shula broke the spell with a SB appearance in 1982, and another in 1984. Who knows what Shanahan will do.
The moral of the story- losing 3 straight playoff games to superior teams is not an indictment of a coach's ability, and great coaches don't forget how to coach. So let's knock it off with this "haven't won a playoff game without Elway" crap, especially since there is a VERY strong possibility that that'll no longer be true in another 3 weeks. If Denver beats its opponent in the second round of the playoffs, is Shanahan suddenly a drastically better coach than he always was, because he won without Elway? Is there just this magical infusion that happens when the clock strikes 00:00 that turns Shanahan from a good coach into one of the best in the league? If I look carefully, will I be able to see it happen during the post-game interview?
I think they have DRASTICALLY different coaching styles. From the type of defense they employ (3-4 vs 4-3) to the type of blocking schemes they use and linemen they prefer, to the type of running game they create to the type of QBs they use. The only similarities are that they both win, and they both run a lot. Saying that Shanny and Cowher have similar styles is like saying that Arizona, Philadelphia, New England, and Indianapolis all have very similar teams since they all throw a lot.As for why Shanny hasn't won without Elway... random chance. I mean, even if Denver has a 75% chance to win every playoff game they've played without Elway, that still means there's a 6.25% chance that they lose 3 in a row. Denver's been the road team all 3 times, so at best they only had a 50% chance to win. That means there's a 12.5% chance that they lose 3 in a row. When you consider that Baltimore was the eventual Superbowl Champion, and the other games were 3/6 games, 50% is generous.
Losing 3 straight playoff games is far more excusable than losing 3 straight home AFC Championship games. Random chance says that it's FAR more likely to lose 3 straight road wildcard games than 3 straight home AFCC Games.
Bull. Denver has a better OL because Denver SPENDS MORE on its OL. Denver lead the league in % of salary cap devoted to the offensive line this past season. More money on the line means less money spent on defense, which means that Shanahan might have had more to work with on the line, but Cowher has had more to work with on defense. Besides, add up all the pro bowl appearances and you'll find more Steelers than Broncos. As for the free agency nonsense... Shanahan has had ONE losing season, when he had lost Atwater, Zimmerman, Elway, and Davis all within the past year (all 4 are potential HoFers). In addition, if you think Denver hasn't lost people to FA, you're seriously high. Denver currently has 6 players on its roster from the SB Champion seasons- Rod Smith, Dwayne Carswell (currently on IR), Tom Nalen, Trevor Pryce, Jason Elam, Matt Lepsis. That's 47 players who were on the last SB Champion who are no longer with Denver- and yet, Denver just clinched the #2 seed in the AFC, assuring their 4th playoff appearance in the 7 years since, or 4 in 6 if you don't count the rebuilding year. 47 players gone, 66% playoff apearance rate, sounds like Denver's dealt just fine with personnel losses.
Shanny's track record with 1st rounders is just fine. Actually, scratch that, it's been STELLAR. Trevor Pryce and Al Wilson have both made several trips to the Pro Bowl. Ashley Lelie hasn't been a stud, but he DOES have a 1,000 yard season under his belt. Deltha O'Neil just made his second pro bowl (albeit for the Bengals). George Foster is a solid starter at Right Tackle. D.J. Williams is a potential stud OLB whose numbers this year suffered from playing SLB, but who was a defensive rookie of the year candidate last year. He didn't have a first round pick this last season, but his first selection, 2nd rounder Darrent Williams, was once again in the running for defensive rookie of the year before he got injured. Willie Middlebrooks was a bust, plain and simple (he got cut from the SAN FRANCISCO 49ERS!), and I can't recall who their other 1st rounder was during that span. But anyway, over the last 9 years, his first rounders have looked like this: Trevor Pryce, Al Wilson, can't remember (Paul Tovessi, maybe?), Deltha O'Neil, Willie Middlebrooks, Ashley Lelie, George Foster, D.J. Williams, No 1st rounder (Darrent Williams first selection). The worst selection by far was Middlebrooks, but the second worse (leaving out the player I can't remember) was Ashley Lelie... a 1000 yard receiver!!! Name me ONE other team in the ENTIRE NFL who has had anywhere NEAR as good of a track record with their first rounders.Anyway, now that I've established strong support for the claim that no team has had better success with 1st rounders than the Broncos, here comes the part that will REALLY blow your mind... since Shanny came to town, Denver is the only team in the entire NFL that hasn't had a single top-10 selection. So in other words, Shanahan has been getting can't-miss production without A SINGLE "CAN'T-MISS" PROSPECT. As a matter of fact, there isn't a single team in the NFL that has had a lower average draft position since Shanny came to town.
There are very few LEGITIMATE criticisms of Mike Shanahan, and his 1st round draft history isn't one of them. No team in the entire NFL has done a better job with their 1st round picks than Mike Shanahan's Broncos.
Godsbrother
Footballguy
In Cowher's defense he's only coached three road playoff games. The Steelers were underdogs in all three games and two of those were losses were in OT. The first OT loss was against a guy named Joe Montana at QB. The last road loss occurred after Tennessee's kicker Del Greco missed the game winning field goal but was able to try again after a very controversial running-into-the-kicker penalty.All told his AFC playoff record is 8-8. Certainly not great but not as horrendous as most people think.
As far as who is better Cowher or Shanny? I would say that until Cowher wins a SB, Shanny gets the nod. Too bad O'Donnell threw those awful picks in SB XXX...
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Damn fine post ya got there. Two of my favorite coaches with a huge commitment to the run. Shanahan by a skoach for me but I also agree that Cowher has the better chin and spit-takes. Makes for great TV. I hope they meet in the playoffs. It will be the best game of the year.
Ghost Rider
Footballguy
Wow. That was a whole lot of good information, some of which I hadn't really thought of when comparing Shanny to Cowher. I would love to see Steelers fans pick that apart and try to spin it in Cowher's favor.
I don't think Walsh ever coached a playoff game without Montana, so he couldn't lose. Ironic that somebody would try do begrudge Walsh to show Shanahans greatness, when Walsh is the mentor for Shanahan, and Holmgren, and Denny Green. And for Belichick. I believe he was 1-1 without Brady, having beaten the Bledsoe led Patriots in 1994, in the playoffs, and losing the next weekend. As for whom is a better coach, I say it's Cowher, but only because I had to pick. I really think they're about equal. The one area Shanahan is better is scheming the passing offense. In all other areas, I give the nod to Cowher. Shanny is also the GM (ted sundquist has the title, but in reality it's shanny. Sundquist is more of the accountant). He gets points for that to level the table. If Cowher is picking the guys he wants, rather than their GM, are they better? Hard to argue with Pittsburghs draft recipe over the last 15 years. Kordell Stewart in the playoffs against the Pats? He was horrible. Special teams played a part in 2001, but I think Ty Law also returned a Stewart pass for a TD in that game. Still, Stewart, Maddox and O'Donnell are no John Elway. As for the Broncos winning 2x with Elway, it came at a price, and it plays into why they haven't won a playoff game since. In Elways last 4 years, he restructured time and again, to bring in more players, to get him the rings. That money was all against the cap after he retired, and why the Broncos could only be competative, and not win playoff games. These guys are both top tier NFL coaches, year in and out. And outside of Bill Belichick, I'd take either to coach my team. They're simply great coaches. Each has areas they're better in, but I don't think there is a clear cut 'better' choice among the 2.
I think John Mobley is the missing 1st rounder. I've criticized Shanahan a lot, because in first rounders, you usually get starters. Foster could have been had in the 3rd round, and I don't believe he played his first 2 years. First, absolutely not, and I don't think his second. He would have been a good 2nd or 3rd rounder, not a good first. O'neal has flashes of brilliance, not solid play. He made the probowl as a bronco as well, and lost his starting job the next year. Bear in mind though, making the probowl isn't a sign of greatness, but popularity. Take a look at this year for all you need on that matter. Middlebrooks was a bonafide bust. Al Wilson , Trevor Pryce and DJ Williams were all can't miss first rounders, and are awesome. I think Pryce takes a lot of plays off, or at least used to. I moved two years ago, and haven't seen them play enough to offer fair current criticism. But, when he brings it, man he can bring it. Lelie is average at best, and again was not a first round talent. The criticism is not that he misses in the first round, but that he takes players without first round talent, at least the fair criticism that I've heard. Shanny has some success, moreso recently, in the 1st round. But the criticism formed in his early years, and it was fair criticism. Once he decided to stop taking projects in the first round, his success improved. The best first round picks in the NFL? I think not. NE has taken Damien Woody, Richard Seymour, Ty Law, Logan Mankins, Ben Watson (suspect pick, but the 32nd, and their 2nd 1st rounder that year) Vince Wolfork, Ty Warren, Dan Graham since Belichick has been there. I'd have to give the Pats #1 picks the nod. Our front 3 is IMHO the best front 3 in the league. Last night the Jets had 30 yards, and that's the best running performance against them in the last 4 weeks. Of late, you have to give Shanny credit for his picks, but you also have to fairly look at his past too. I love the guy. He's a great coach, and an offensive mastermind. But, I still think it's a tossup if he's a better coach than Cowher.
SSOG
Moderator
John Mobley wasn't the missing 1st rounder. He came the year before Trevor Pryce, and was the guy who won the first SB for Denver when he defensed a Brett Favre pass to end the game. If you add him to the mix of Shanny's first rounders, Shanny's record looks EVEN BETTER STILL.The rest of your post is revisionist history. First off, you DO NOT usually get starters out of the first round. In fact, first round picks have a 50% bust rate. Second, if Al Wilson and Trevor Pryce were regarded as "can't miss" prospects... WHY WERE THEY THE LAST PLAYERS DRAFTED IN THE FIRST ROUND? D.J. Williams was another strong pick, but he was taken SEVENTEENTH overall. That's hardly a "can't miss" prospect.
As for Lelie not being a first round talent... I'd contend that he's been better than over 50% of the first round WRs taken in the last 10 seasons. In fact, if you looked it up, I bet you'd find that probably 50+% of first round WRs have yet to post a 1,000 yard season. Seriously, look it up. If you draft a WR in the first, and he becomes a 1,000 yard receiver, you made a solid selection.
And as for him having a better track success in recent years... his first selections were John Mobley, Trevor Pryce, and Al Wilson. I'd argue that his biggest successes were early on, especially since Pryce and Wilson were the last picks of the round.
I agree that New England has had a lot of success with first rounders recently, too, and would say the Bellichick Patriots have been comparable to the Shanahan Broncos in the first round, especially since both have been dealing with late first round picks. That said, I don't think you can say that they've clearly been better.
Ghost Rider
Footballguy
What about running the football? Do you seriously think Cowher is better at scheming to run the ball? As much coverage as Pittsburgh gets about how well they run the ball, since Shanahan became Denver's coach, they have run for more yards than any other NFL team, including the Steelers. And Shanahan does it with different running backs seemingly every other year...Terrell Davis, Olandis Gary, Mike Anderson, Clinton Portis, Quentin Griffin, Tatum Bell. All of them have had some success running the ball in Denver. Why? Because Shanahan has created a scheme that NFL teams still cannot defend and stop consistently. That, my friend, is coaching.
No one told Cowher he had to stick with Stewart for five plus years. I would think sticking with a supposed mediocre quarterback for over five years is worth questioning Cowher's judgement as the head coach. At least Shanahan cut the cord with Griese after getting as much out of him as he could. And Griese showed serious potential in the '00 season, but never made any progress after that and slowly regressed over the following two seasons. Stewart never made any progress as a passer, yet Cowher stuck with him, year after year after year. And for the record, Law did not return an INT for a TD in that game. Troy Brown returned a punt for a touchdown (I still cannot figure out why Cowher had his punter kick the ball right to him when NE was not moving the ball at all on offense and Brown had been dynamite that year returning punts) and NE also blocked a field goal and returned it for a TD.
Yes, Denver can run the ball, and I believe it's been set up largely by their passing game, whether it was Elway, or Griese. Plummer has also panned out, somewhat,, but I believe he will cost Den the game against NE. You asked a question, I gave my opinion. There isn't a convincing case to be made for either. You believe it's Shanny, I believe it's Cowher. You don't think Cowher wins the SB against Dallas w/ elway instead of O'Donnell? I think he does. For all the success Shanny has had, the one glaring FACT remains, he has never won a playoff game without Elway. They're 0-3. You may discount it for a variety of reasons, but I don't. And further, I think that streak continues this year. Cowher has had mediocre QB's, as has Shanahan. Cowher has had quite a number of playoff wins without the best QB (IMHO) to ever play. Shanahan has noe. I think that speaks a lot of Cowher, and leaves a huge question mark for Shanahan.
nygiants56
Footballguy
his protruding chin notwithstanding, Cowher comes form the Marty Shottenheimer school of coaching...win regular season games, lose playoff games with mindlessly conservative play calling.Cowher sucks.
Ghost Rider
Footballguy
Regardless of what Plummer will or will not do in the playoffs, the bottom line is Shanahan has done a tremendous job turning his career around. He has gotten the most out of Jake Plummer. Isn't getting the most out of a player the mark of a great coach?
It is not as simple as saying "put Elway on the Steelers and they would have won a Super Bowl" or anything like that. If it is, can I say give John Fox L. Tomlinson and he wins Super Bowl XXXVIII over New England, thus making him a better coach than Belichick? Of course not. You can pick any player from history you want in theory to make a coach better, but when discussing the facts, we should discuss what DID happened, not what MIGHT have happened. As for Shanny not winning w/o Elway, that has been addressed and proven to be a weak argument (see post 34 in this thread, for example, as well as the recent thread on this exact same thing), but if you want to keep making that argument, I cannot stop you, but just know that it is a weak one.
I just find it unbelievable that Shanahan gets criticized for winning with a great QB. Does Bill Walsh get criticized because he won with Joe Montana? Does Belichick get criticized because he won with Tom Brady? Heck, the Patriots stunk in '00 and were sucking in '01 until Bledsoe got hurt and Brady started playing. All of a sudden, the Patriots became a good and eventually a great team. One could argue that Belichick lucked out big time with that since the Patriots were going nowhere with Bledsoe playing. So. how does this make him any better than Shanahan, who had a hand in Elway's development as an NFL QB.
SSOG
Moderator
Denver has run for more yards at a higher yard-per-carry clip than any team in the entire NFL since Shanahan came to town- despite starting guys like Olandis Gary, Reuben Droughns, and Quentin Griffin. There's no way that you can argue that Pitt's running game has been more impressive than Denver's- which has 10 1,000 yard rushers in the past 11 years (80 yards shy of an 11th), including one guy who ran for 2,000.Anyway, you count Shanahan's 0-3 playoff mark sans Elway against him... so if Shanny wins a playoff game in 2 weeks, will he suddenly jump ahead of Cowher in your estimation? Will he suddenly become a better coach because he won ONE playoff game?
Let's say that the situation is Denver is down by 5 facing 4th-and-goal from the 10 yard line with 2 seconds remaining, and Jake Plummer throws a pass that gets caught by Rod Smith at the 2, who then lunges for the end zone. The booth institutes a review, and replays show that Rod Smith was a centimeter short of a TD. Would Mike Shanahan be a drastically better coach if Rod Smith simply got one more centimeter? Would one centimeter be the difference between Shanahan being worse than Cowher, and Shanahan being better than Cowher?
Of course it wouldn't. Mike Shanahan will be exactly as good of a coach 3 weeks from now as he is today, regardless of the outcome of his playoff game, and suggesting otherwise is ridiculous. But that's just what everyone who says "Shanny can't win without Elway" is doing- they're suggesting that if Shanahan wins, then he will be a better coach 3 weeks from now than he is today. He'll still gameplan exactly the same, he'll still prepare exactly the same, he'll run the same offense and defense, and he'll motivate the same... but somehow, despite everything being 100% the same, he'll be magically better. I call
.Also, is anyone REALLY suggesting that Mike Shanahan is incapable of winning a playoff game without John Elway? If Denver faced Jacksonville, would anyone predict Jacksonville would win because Shanahan is incapable of winning in the playoffs without Elway?
Steelers4Life
Footballguy
I don't think anyone says that Shanahan isn't a very good coach. I know I think he is. It takes talent to guide a team to a Super Bowl win no matter how much talent he had, and the job he's done resurrecting Plummer's career is admirable. he's also had successful running games, but he's had consistently good QB play during his years in Denver, a luxury Cowher hasn't had. However, no matter what spin you put on it, it has to say something that he never won a playoff game where his team wasn't led by perhaps the greatest QB of all time. Call it a weak argument all you want, but it's still true. It says even more when comparing these two coaches. It's true that at various times in Cowher's tenure QBs have had somewhat solid seasons. O'Donnell, Kordell, and Maddox all had the occasional decent year, but at no point were any of them good enough to make plays without the support of a running game. None of them (with the possible exception of O'Donnell) were good enough to bring the team back and win a game with their arm. That's a HUGE, HUGE part of the reason why the team struggled in AFC championship games when they were up against teams led by Elway and Brady. There are lots of talent gaps that can be overcome in the NFL, but a gap that big at QB is perhaps the most difficult. The 1994 loss to the Chargers was terrible. The 1997 loss was a 3 point loss to the Elway led Broncos when Kordell threw 2 red-zone INTs. The 2001 loss to the Patriots is pinned on special teams breakdowns, and last year's loss was simply to a better team. Roethlisberger had hit the wall, made too many mistakes, and the defense got lit up. Cowher takes way too much blame and criticism for these losses.Cowher has taken 5 teams to AFC Championship games in barely over a decade, led by 3 mediocre QBs and a rookie, winning one. I'd even contend that some of these teams overachieved to get there. It's my opinion that Cowher has proven to get more out of his players than Shanahan has, and I'd point the fact that he's had teams advance farther in the playoffs more times by getting every bit out of their talent.Yes, Shanahan has won more Super Bowls. I don't think that makes him a better coach, and I'd choose Cowher over Shanahan to be my coach.
thesurfshop19
Footballguy
I think the key point others are trying to make is that Shanahan was instrumental in Elway's development.He didn't just inherit an already-great QB and ride him to his titles -- Elway never won a playoff game without Shanahan coaching him in a major capacity!
Elway was as great as he was because of Shanahan's influence, and now we see that Plummer's career is seeing new heights under Shanahan's direction as well. Shanahan has developed his QB talent to some degree, he didn't just luck into it. Let's not forget that Plummer was a free agent and the Steelers could have signed him before the 2003 season if Cowher wasn't comfortable with his QBs.
Ghost Rider
Footballguy
That's because having good quarterback play is a necessity to having postseason success (unless you have a defense for the ages like the 2000 Ravens). Shanahan knows this. Cowher apparently just figured it out within the last few years.
How many times do I have to say it....NO ONE FORCED BILL COWHER TO STICK WITH KORDELL STEWART FOR OVER FIVE YEARS!
So, who should take the blame? Whether it was the '94 team, the '01 team or the '04 team, there has been one constant in these home AFC title losses...Bill Cowher. If Cowher shouldn't take the blame and criticism for when the Steelers lose in the playoffs, then why should Shanahan take the blame for his team not winning in the playoffs since Elway retired?
I agree. I think Cowher is a fantastic regular season coach. However, I do not think he takes enough chances in the playoffs. His decision to kick a FG early in the 4th quarter against New England last January still baffles me. They had NE on the ropes and let them off the hook. Why run the ball on 3rd and goal from the 3 if you are not going to go for it on 4th down. That is my point. The truly great coaches take chances in the playoffs and Cowher does not seem to want to do that.
Cowher gets more out of his players than Shanahan? I completely disagree. Look at what Shanahan has gotten out of those ex-Cleveland defensive lineman. What did Olandis Gary ever do aside from his '99 season in Denver? Look at Jake Plummer. Look at what Shanahan did with McCaffrey (he was a scrub until Shanny got a hold of him) and Rod Smith (an undrafted WR). I could go on and on, but I think you get the idea.
Steelers4Life
Footballguy
Cowher didn't just figure out that QB play is important, at least I'd hope not. It was an organizational thing, but he did the most he could with the QBs he had. He wasn't the GM and he didn't "shop for the groceries."And you're right, he's the constant among all of those teams. He's the constant on a team that's at least made the AFCC 5 times in 13 years, and he doesn't get nearly the credit he deserves for that. He's the coach, so he gets the blame and criticism, but you have to MAKE it to all those AFCC's in order to lose them. The reasons they lost disappear over time, and people just remember that they lost. Shanahan gets the credit and blame too, only his success, at least in the playoffs, was only over a couple years when the team had Elway.
Part of the problem with Cowher in the playoffs sometimes is that he ISN'T conservative. He's gotten away from the running game in the playoffs a number of times. If the Steelers had gone for it on 4th down against NE and failed, people would've crucified him for passing up sure points and deflating the team's momentum. Instead, he kicked the field goal and he's too conservative. Like other people, I wanted him to go for it, but it's not always that simple.
He's also the same coach who opened the 2nd half of SB XXX with an onside kick. He was a hero for doing it in the Super Bowl, but a failure for doing it against the Colts a few weeks ago.
Yes, look at what Shanahan got out of those players. Not a single win in the playoffs unless Elway was under center. I don't dispute that he's gotten a lot out of his guys - all good coaches do. Cowher has taken comparable talent and taken 5 different teams deep into the playoffs and 1 to the Super Bowl, led by 3 different mediocre QBs. You can judge that however you want to, and I DO think Shanahan is a very good coach.
I just wouldn't take him over Cowher.
Let me understand, the pro-shanahan guys are condemning Cowher because he's lost AFC championships w/ mediocre QB's, but Shanahan is great, yet he hasn't won a single playoff game withou Elway? Am I the only one this strikes as odd? If Shanahan were a better coach, he could have pulled off at least 1 playoff win in the last 6 years. I don't care to look, but off the top of my head I believe Cowher has won about 5 playoff games in that span. And just so you don't forget. I love Mike Shanahan. I think he's a great coach. One of the all time greats. But outside of 2 seasons he's never won a playoff game. Even without the ring, I have to take the guy who has consistently won playoff games with the players he has. That's the better coach to me, not one who can only do it with one QB. Not win SB's, but win playoff games. There are many great coaches who never have, and never will win SB's, but all great coaches win many playoff games with varied talent. Shanny wil win more eventually, but to this point he's had 6 years, and he's yet to do it. Find me a 6 year span in Cowhers career coaching where he didn't win at least 1 playoff game. Any playoff gama.
Ghost Rider
Footballguy
I have given Cowher plenty of credit for getting to the playoffs as often as he has and getting his overachieving teams to that many AFC title games. Like I have said before, I think he is a great regular season coach since he gets teams to play better than they probably are, but like someone else said, Cowher seems to be only able to win one way and if a team finds a way to take it away, Cowher seems to have a tough time adjusting and finding new ways to win. You cannot discount what Shanahan has done with players because he hasn't won in the playoffs with them. Let me ask you this...if the Broncos win their divisional round game in a little over week, what is your argument going to be then? Is it then going to be, "Yeah, well, he has never won a Super Bowl w/o Elway?"
And like SSOG has said, will one win in 9 or 10 days magically make Shanahan a much better coach like that? I do not think so. The bottom line is Shanahan has put his team in a great position to succeed this postseason and it is up to them to come through. If the Broncos lose their first playoff game next week, did Shanahan then do a poor job this season?
Possibly, although I somehow doubt it.
Yeah, well I can say that if Cowher were a better coach, he could have pulled off at least 1 Super Bowl victory by now. It works both ways.
Find me any era where Bill Cowher has won two Super Bowls in a row. In fact, I will make it easy on you. Find a time where he has won just one. Let me know what you find.
Steelers4Life
Footballguy
The only thing I disagree with in the first paragraph is your thought that Cowher only has one way to win. Remember, he's not the general manager. The teams he's been able to win with have been severely limited in their abilities to throw the ball without the support of a running game. His fault? Maybe he put too much faith in Kordell and didn't push hard enough to replace him, but the bottom line is that it hasn't been his call. He actually adjusts his gameplan very well according to the strengths of the team, as evidenced by the 5-WR looks he often used to get to the Super Bowl in 1996. It just so happens that since then, the teams' strength has been the offensive line and running game. It's only been in the last 2 years that he's had a QB good enough to really threaten defenses, and he was only a rookie last year.
The Broncos should be able to win their home game. If you want to criticize Cowher for playoff losses, especially those at home, then yes, you'd have to do it to Shanahan too if they are upset in their first matchup. Personally, I'd wait to see why they'd lose, if they do, before making a judgement, but you'd have to hold Shanahan to the same standard you hold Cowher.
It's not about one game here or there. It's the fact that Cowher has consistently taken teams deep into the playoffs with vastly different rosters, never going more than 4 years without a AFCC appearance.
What I've said all along is that I'd take Cowher to be my coach over Shanahan, and the fact that Shanahan has won 2 SBs doesn't change that. It's my belief that Cowher also could've won with Shanahan's players, but Shanahan has never done anything to make me believe he could've been as successful as Cowher in the playoffs with the squads Cowher has had.
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Steelers4Life
Footballguy
The bottom line is Shanahan has put his team in a great position to succeed this postseason and it is up to them to come through. If the Broncos lose their first playoff game next week, did Shanahan then do a poor job this season?
Question - isn't this what all coaches do? Isn't that what Cowher did in 1994, 1997, 2001, and 2004?
Did Cowher do a poor job allowing Tim McKyer to get beat on a long TD late in the game in 1994?
Did Cowher do a poor job allowing Kordell to throw 2 red zone INTs in 1997?
Did Cowher do a poor job allowing a punt return TD and a blocked field goal TD against the Pats in 2001?
And Did Cowher do a poor job when the defense played a terrible game and Roethlisberger made rookie mistakes last year?
You at least have to be consistent in how you judge the two coaches.
Question - isn't this what all coaches do? Isn't that what Cowher did in 1994, 1997, 2001, and 2004?
Did Cowher do a poor job allowing Tim McKyer to get beat on a long TD late in the game in 1994?
Did Cowher do a poor job allowing Kordell to throw 2 red zone INTs in 1997?
Did Cowher do a poor job allowing a punt return TD and a blocked field goal TD against the Pats in 2001?
And Did Cowher do a poor job when the defense played a terrible game and Roethlisberger made rookie mistakes last year?
You at least have to be consistent in how you judge the two coaches.
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Stillers Jr.
Footballguy
Ghost Rider, you are a die hard Bronco fan and you should be commended. Let's get real though, there is no way Steeler fans can convince you Cowher is better and there's no way you can convince us of the flip side...Steeler fans could say "The sky is blue" and you would find 10 statistical reasons that it is in fact green.You see zero value in what Cowher has done and unfortunately take it personal that people bring up the "No playoff wins since Elway" schtick. Who cares, you like your coach so be happy about it don't get all angry...Arguing over something as arbitrary as this is an exercize in futility.The bottom line is Bill Cowher is a very good coach and so is Shanahan.
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Ghost Rider
Footballguy
Do you really think the Pittsburgh front office forced Cowher to stick with Stewart for that long? Come on. I think a mistake Cowher has made with Roethlisberger is not having him throw the ball enough in games. The games where the Steelers fall behind and Ben has to throw the ball a lot, he doesn't do very well because he isn't used to throwing the ball that frequently. I think the only way he will continue to improve is to throw the ball more and handing off 45 times a game and throwing 17 passes isn't going to do it. I understand that the game situation dictates this (like there is no need to have him throw if they lead 21-0 in the 3rd quarter), but I still think some short passes, bootlegs or something to keep him going and stuff would be helpful to his game.
As for Cowher and Shanny winning with each others teams, that is pure speculation and something we will never know. See my sig for details.
Actually, Cowher did do a poor job on the punt return in 2001 by NE. The Patriots were not moving the ball on offense at all. The Steelers were punting from their end zone late in the first quarter. Pitt's punter punted the ball out of bounds around midfield. However, a penalty forced them to punt again. They then kicked the ball right to Troy Brown (who was dynamite that year on returns), who returned it for a touchdown. I remember sitting there thinking that I couldn't believe Cowher had him kick the ball right to Brown. For me, the bottom line is that the Steelers have lost a lot of close games in the playoffs and Cowher often seems to make one bad and costly decision that hinders his teams chances at winning (the punt return, not going for it on 4th down after running it on 3rd down last year, having Kordell throw the ball too much against Denver instead of running the ball against Denver's less-than-average run defense, etc.). I do not remember Shanahan ever making a costly decision that cost his team in the playoffs. Of course, it doesn't help that his last three playoff losses were not close (losing to the Ravens with their backup QB playing and two losses to the Colts), but still. I don't know anyone that would say Shanahan is not a GREAT game day coach. His in-game decisions are usually very good.
Ghost Rider
Footballguy
I see zero value in what Cowher has done? That is completely wrong. I have given Cowher credit in various threads on this forum over the last few months. I am not angry at all. I am actually enjoying this thread quite a bit. I enjoy discussing football and having my opinions disputed and vice versa. If we all agreed with one another in every thread, that would be boring. Unless I missed something, everyone has stayed rational and calm in this thread and discussed their point intelligently, so I am not sure where you are getting this idea that I or anyone else is angry.
And while I agree with you that Broncos and Steelers fans are not likely to change the minds of the other, I do not consider this a futlie discussion and I hope the others do not, either.
Apparently, I am in the minority but to me this is a no-brainer. Shannahan is a great coach, but Cowher has consistently done more with less talent than just about anyone (other than perhaps Jeff Fisher who had a bad year this year). Shannahan has done great things with great players, but I do not see him being a better coach than Cowher.
Stillers Jr.
Footballguy
Ok boss. In general, all I have read in this thread is you bash Cowher, and that's fine. He deserves it in some instances. I am not one of those "Anything the coach does is 100% correct" fans...again, I think both coaches are very good and most teams would love to have either of them.
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Steelers4Life
Footballguy
Just a couple things - You're wrong about Ben's production when he throws a lot of passes. He threw the ball a ton in college and is capable of doing it in the NFL.Do you really think the Pittsburgh front office forced Cowher to stick with Stewart for that long? Come on. I think a mistake Cowher has made with Roethlisberger is not having him throw the ball enough in games. The games where the Steelers fall behind and Ben has to throw the ball a lot, he doesn't do very well because he isn't used to throwing the ball that frequently. I think the only way he will continue to improve is to throw the ball more and handing off 45 times a game and throwing 17 passes isn't going to do it. I understand that the game situation dictates this (like there is no need to have him throw if they lead 21-0 in the 3rd quarter), but I still think some short passes, bootlegs or something to keep him going and stuff would be helpful to his game.
As for Cowher and Shanny winning with each others teams, that is pure speculation and something we will never know. See my sig for details.
Actually, Cowher did do a poor job on the punt return in 2001 by NE. The Patriots were not moving the ball on offense at all. The Steelers were punting from their end zone late in the first quarter. Pitt's punter punted the ball out of bounds around midfield. However, a penalty forced them to punt again. They then kicked the ball right to Troy Brown (who was dynamite that year on returns), who returned it for a touchdown. I remember sitting there thinking that I couldn't believe Cowher had him kick the ball right to Brown. For me, the bottom line is that the Steelers have lost a lot of close games in the playoffs and Cowher often seems to make one bad and costly decision that hinders his teams chances at winning (the punt return, not going for it on 4th down after running it on 3rd down last year, having Kordell throw the ball too much against Denver instead of running the ball against Denver's less-than-average run defense, etc.). I do not remember Shanahan ever making a costly decision that cost his team in the playoffs. Of course, it doesn't help that his last three playoff losses were not close (losing to the Ravens with their backup QB playing and two losses to the Colts), but still. I don't know anyone that would say Shanahan is not a GREAT game day coach. His in-game decisions are usually very good.
| 4 cin | 17 25 174 1 0 | 4 2 0 |
| 6 dal | 21 25 193 2 0 | 2 8 0 |
| 8 nwe | 18 24 196 2 0 | 5 3 0 |
| 15 nyg | 18 28 316 1 2 | 1 -1 0 |
| 3 nwe | 12 28 216 2 0 | 3 17 0 |
| 5 sdg | 17 26 225 1 0 | 2 15 1 |
| 8 bal | 18 30 177 2 1 | 4 4 0 |
| 12 ind | 17 26 133 1 2 |3 21 0 |
| 13 cin |29 41 386 3 3 | 1 2 0 |
In the 9 games where Ben's thrown his MOST passes, his numbers are:
167-253 (66%),
2,016 yards
8.0 YPA
224 yards per game
TD:INT ratio of 15:8 (plus 1 rushing TD)
Steelers record: 6-3
In addition, Cowher didn't have Josh Miller punt to Troy Brown. The punt was mis-kicked by Josh Miller, and Miller admitted it. He was supposed to kick it out of bounds.
We've been over the field goal already... if he goes for it and they fail, he's questioned as to why he didn't take the sure points.
And he didn't have Kordell throw too much. He HAD to throw sometimes, but he made mistakes when he did. He threw 3 INTs and fumbled that day.
Like I said.. people will try and blame Cowher for a lot of things that were out of his control. Hey, he's the coach, so that's understandable even if it's incorrect.
Ghost Rider
Footballguy
I would agree that most NFL teams would be thrilled to have either Cowher or Shanahan. I think Shanahan is one of the top 3 coaches in the NFL and Cowher is not far behind. And, believe it or not, I do like Bill Cowher. He always cracks me up when he gets that angry look on his face (which he used to always get after one of Josh Miller's many bad punts) and his hard-nosed approach to the game is refreshing. I just don't think he is quite as good as Shanny, so I have to criticize him in a thread like this (especially when Steelers fans are criticizing Shanahan) a bit.
Okay, maybe it just seems like Roethlisberger struggles when he throws the ball more. Still, I think Pittsburgh needs to get to a point where they can win games with running or passing the ball. Throwing the ball less than 30 times every game really isn't giving Roethlisberger much of a chance, is it? On the punt return in '01, if Miller took the blame for that, then I retract my criticism of Cowher for that.
I know some would have, but I would not have questioned Cowher for going for the touchdown in that game against NE last January. Given that their defense wasn't playing that well and Pittsburgh had all of the momentum, you could hear the energy from the crowd just disappear as the kicker came on to the field to kick a chip shot FG.
I think some credit has to be given to Denver's defense for that AFC title game in '97. Stewart hadn't really had a bad game like that at that point, but the Broncos defense rattled him and forced him to make a lot of bad mistakes. I think it was a game Stewart never really mentally recovered from. Whatever progress he had made as a passer that year was gone. At least that is what I think. That is why I thought Cowher and the Steelers should have made a change at QB a lot sooner instead of sticking with him for another four years plus.
SSOG
Moderator
First thing's first- speculating what Cowher would have done with those Denver teams is fun. Let's speculate, shall we? Okay, Cowher takes over Denver in 1995. I doubt he drafts Terrell Davis, I doubt he brings in Rod Smith and Ed McCaffrey to be his two go-to WRs, I doubt he brings in Alex Gibbs, Gary Kubiak, and Bobby Turner, instituting that zone-blocking scheme that got Terrell Davis 2000 yards (not that he drafted Davis in the first place). I doubt he brings in Neil Smith. I doubt he designs an offense that best maximizes Elway's skills. Best case scenario? 11-5 and a loss in the AFC Championship game. Which is pretty much what he did in Pittsburgh.I'm not being serious, I'm simply trying to demonstrate how stupid it is to play "what if" and give Cowher Shanahan's team- especially since the reason it was Shanny's team is that SHANNY WENT OUT AND ASSEMBLED IT HIMSELF. That's like saying that if Bill Walsh drafted and traded and whatever to build up the 49ers dynasty, and then invented the west coast offense, and then taught the west coast offense to the team and put in an offensive coordinator who would run that offense, and then stepped aside and Cowher stepped in, he'd have a SB championship by now. It's probably true, but it ignores the fact that it wouldn't have been HIS SB championship that he won, since he didn't put together the offense, the defense, or the personnel, he just walked down the sidelines and spit on the refs.Anyway, this has really devolved into two different sides repeating the same arguements over and over and over again, so I'm going to throw out one last stat and then abandon the thread.Shanahan's home playoff record: 5-1Shanahan's neutral playoff record: 2-0Shanahan's road playoff record: 0-3Cowher's home playoff record: 8-5Cowher's neutral playoff record: 0-1Cowher's road playoff record: 0-3Three points arise from these stats. First, let's stop talking about the "miracles" Cowher has worked with less talented teams. He hasn't won a playoff game YET with a less talented team than his opponent- as evidenced by his 0-3 road record.Second, let's stop talking about the "Shanahan can't win without Elway" and maybe recognize that the reason that he lost had something to do with the fact that he had a worst team than the other guy- as evidenced by the fact that he hasn't had a home playoff game since Elway.Third, if this season Cowher wins a playoff game on the road, and Shanahan wins a playoff game without Elway, neither one will be a better coach than they were a week ago. So let's stop bringing up those two points about the coaches as if they're legitimate criticisms.Final comparison boils down as follows:Cowher in Pittsburgh:63.2% winning percentage.71.4% playoff appearance rate.Playoff winning percentages- Home: 61.5%, Road: 0%, Neutral: 0%Shanny in Denver:64.8% winning percentage.63.6% playoff appearance rate.Playoff winning percentages- Home: 83.3%, Road: 0%, Neutral: 100%Both coaches are pretty much the gold standard at winning during the regular season. Cowher's better at getting his team to the playoffs. Shanny's better at winning once there. As far as coaching goes, who you pick depends on which is more important to you. Personally, I'd call it a tie, and then break the tie in favor of Shanahan because he is more responsible for his team's fate, since he's the general manager, too (actually, Ted Sundquist was recently appointed GM, but Shanahan is still the final say on all personnel decisions).Does this satisfy all interested parties? I sure hope so, because as I said, I'm abandoning the thread.
Arm Chair Express
Footballguy
And Reeves never won the 3 Superbowl he was in with Elway!
Arm Chair Express
Footballguy
He hasn't had the defenses he had when they won the Supebowls, thats one big reason. Not only did he lose Elway, he lost T. Davis. Then he lost O. Gary, M. Anderson. Portis came along, but Griese was his QB. Your giving Cowher a pass because he hasn't had a great qb, so why doesn't Shanahan get that same pass. Most great coaches had great qbs to ride to superbowls, but you seem to ingnore that to make your point of he hasn't won anything with out Elway. Good coaches win a superbowl here and there with great defenses. With Pitt's style of play under Cowher they don't need a great qb to win games. They depend of the running game and great defense. So if you look back at the past SBs you had either great QB play or Def play and Denver has had neither since Elway retired. Baltimore won with Dilfer, they didn't have Elway. So your arguement doesn't have much merit. Fact is Shanny has won 2 superbowl with his coaching style and Cowher has won none with his. They are both great coaches in my mind, in fact I would love if either of them would come to Detroit, but if I had to choose one it would be Shanny. He has won 2 superbowls as a head coach and was involved in superbowls in SF also.OK. Fair enough. I see them both as similar sytle coaches in that they like to establish a dominant running game. The difference is that Cowher has won AND advanced in the playoffs without a playmaker in the passing game where Shanahan clearly hasn't.I'd love to hear a reason why Shanahan is a better coach aside from, "Hey, he won 2 Super Bowls." I contend that he wouldn't have if Elway wasn't his QB, and I support that by saying he hasn't won a playoff game without him.I didn't.I didn't pick either...like I said, I saw the argument, and decided to get into a discussion...mainly out of curiosity. I really don't care who the better coach is.In all honesty, they're about equal to me.
I'd also love to hear why people think Shanahan hasn't won a single playoff game without Elway at QB.
Cowher isn't blameless, but he's taken a lot more criticism over the AFCC losses than he deserves and it has obviously affected people's perception of him.
Arm Chair Express
Footballguy
What's the difference, in the end neither won the superbowl. So whats there to be proud of by winning one or 2 playoff games and coming up empty handed.I said Stewart wasn't a playmaker in the passing game. And he wasn't. When his legs were taken away from him in big games, he failed miserably as a passer.And again, I'm not talking about Bellichek. I have no way of knowing how successful he'd be without Brady right now.Bull crap! Are you telling me Stewart wasn't a playmaker all of those years with his feet? This argument of yours has zero credibility.You are right. I mean, take away Bill Belichick's three Super Bowl's and he is overrated, too, right?
Hmmm, let's see. They have made the playoffs 3 times in 6 seasons since Elway has retired. The first loss was to the Ravens in a game where the Broncos starting QB didn't play because of injury. The second and third losses were to the Colts, a team Denver clearly does not match up well with.
As far those 3 playoff losses, that's all fine and dandy. If a Steelers fan talks that way about Cowher's losses, he's making "excuses." Making the playoffs 3 times in 6 seasons and not winning a game isn't exactly something to be proud of.
Arm Chair Express
Footballguy
Elway played in 3 superbowls before Shanny got there. He didn't win one until Shanny brought in a running game.
thesurfshop19
Footballguy
What are you talking about?Shanahan was Denver's offensive coordinator during the first 2 Super Bowl runs and he came back to be the QB coach during the 3rd (after being fired by the Raiders 4 games into the season).
Elway played in 3 superbowls before Shanny got there. He didn't win one until Shanny brought in a running game.
You don't think that Shanahan had anything to do with Elway's success, despite being the playcaller and coach most responsible for quarterback play?
Ghost Rider
Footballguy
I agree with everything in your post, but I just wanted to remind you that two of Denver's wins in their '97 run to the Super Bowl were on the road (14-10 over KC and 24-21 over Pittsburgh), so Denver's home record under Shanahan is 3-1 while the road record is 2-3.
Steelers4Life
Footballguy
Wondering if any of the Shanahan supporters think this game tonight has a pretty big impact on this debate. I'm posting this before a point is even scored in the game.If Denver wins, then Shanahan has won his first playoff game since Elway left. Not only that, he'll have beaten the Pats at home in a playoff game, which is something Cowher has failed to do in 2 home AFC Championship games. In my opinion, it would give him the clear-cut edge. However...If Denver loses, Shanahan will have dropped to 0-4 in playoff games in the 7 years since Elway left. And, he'd have lost as a home favorite against the Patriots, and that's something Cowher has taken a lot of abuse for doing. I'm sure that no matter what, some Shanahan supporters will just point to the Super Bowls, but I don't think it's quite that simple.Maybe the Broncos win tonight and the Steelers upset the Colts tomorrow, setting up Cowher vs Shanahan in Denver for the AFC Championship...
Steelers4Life
Footballguy
I disagree, but some people think that way.If you read the thread, there are a lot of points raised on both sides.
Denver's got a few breaks so far (the questionable pass interference call, the missed false start on the field goal...), but they're up 11 with a quarter to go. The Pats had all the momentum until Bailey's INT.
pinda
Footballguy
Shanahan, clear cut....no debate anymore.....all your points about Shanny and the playoff wins are pointless now, it simply comes down to one thing now.....Superbowls.think of it like this: Marino might have been great, but he wasn't SUPER......same thing w/ Cowher.......debate is done, lock the thread.
SSOG
Moderator
These playoffs proved how ridiculous it is to use selective stats against coaches. Prior to this season, Shanahan was 0-3 without Elway and Cowher was 0-3 on the road. This year, they both got a win. Are both coaches better now than they were a month ago? Of course not, that's just ridiculous... and yet, that's exactly what everyone who uses those arguements is suggesting.Also, you can't complain about bad calls in the first half. You just can't. No matter how egregious the call, you've still got 30+ minutes left in the game. If you're the better team, you should be able to overcome a few bad calls in 30+ minutes. And it's not like any of those bad calls were particularly egregious.
Steelers4Life
Footballguy
I stand by what I said before there were any points in the game, and there really isn't a debate anymore. I REALLY hope we see a Cowher/Shanahan AFC Championship, but the Steelers have a tall order tomorrow. I think the point about Shanahan's record without Elway was that he was unable to win without his team being led by anyone but one of the greatest QBs of all time. I don't think Shanahan is any better today than he was yesterday, but he eliminated one of the doubts about him tonight. It was a well-coached game, and he did a nice job getting Plummer out of the pocket more in the 2nd half.
I didn't make a comment on the calls at all, but since you brought them up, I think the Broncos caught some big breaks that lead directly to points tonight. The pass interferference call could've gone either way, which to me means there shouldn't have been a call at all. That gave the Broncos a TD, and the missed false start on the field goal probably would've cost them another 3 points. Those plays changed the complexion of the game, and it's not easy to overcome stuff like that when you're playing a good team and behind on the scoreboard.
In the end, they made enough plays to win the game, and that's all that matters.
Ghost Rider
Footballguy
Not at all. I have said all along that the "Shanahan hasn't won a playoff game without Elway" argument was a weak one. Nothing has changed for me. The only thing that has changed is Shanahan's detractors cannot use that weak argument anymore.
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KnowledgeReignsSupreme
Footballguy
They are remarkably similar IMO. BOth are in organizations that realize consistency at the HC position will pay you dividends in the long run, as long as the coach is winning a good amount of games. I think it breeds more respect in the players generally, as they know that the HC is THE guy in town. In some organizations, a player can just wait out the current coach until he gets a coach more to his liking. In Denver or Pittsburgh you can't do that.Back on topic, I don't like either more than the other. They both consistently field competitive, winning teams. Only real difference is the rings, but I'm not sure how many HOFers Cowher has ever had on one team the way the 97-98 Broncos were.
SSOG
Moderator
Come on. That pass interference call came on first-and-10 from the 40. Even if it's an incomplete pass, the Broncos have the ball on New England's side of the field, and it's only second down. So that call didn't automatically cost 7 points. And Elam does have the second-most 50+ yarders in NFL history, so it's not like the false start was a guaranteed loss of 3 points, either. For all we know, if there was a false start, Shanny would have gone for it and scored a TD.But let's say that those penalties DID take 10 points off the board. Denver won by 14. 14-10 = 4 = Denver still won.
I still stand by what I said, though. You can't complain about calls in the first half, since you've got 30+ minutes to make up for them, and if you're REALLY a better team, you shouldn't have a problem doing just that.
