Should the Tush Push play be banned? (1 Viewer)

[unckeyherb]

I mean, most of the reasons people have given to ban the play are nonsense. But the refs being consistently and completely incapable of officiating it seems to at least be a legit argument. In a perfect world the refs would just get good at their jobs, of course in a perfect world refereeing NFL games wouldn't be a side hustle for lawyers and dentists.

How so? Because it seems most of the reasons ARE legit. Or is this a case of "you don't agree with me so your reasons are nonsense"?

NONE of the reasons (to date) are legitimate.  NO, I do not agree with you at all. YES, your reasons for eliminating the play are nonsense. Blithering nonsense. But hey, keep crying about it if it makes you feel better.

Officiating is a LEAGUE issue. It is the NFL's job to fix the officiating. Not the team running a play the officials have problems with. Eliminating this play because part-time officials are having issues with it is not the way to deal with it.

I wonder if full-time officials with no outside distractions (such as a Dental Practice or whatever they do full-time now) would be better able to deal with such an adversarial play as a QB Sneak?

That's not how this works. You need to explain what reasons and why. And are you familiar with my argument? You specify "your reasons" but don't elaborate on what you think MY reasons are. Instead, you just go straight for the personal attacks.

"I don't like anyone's reasons but my own or the ones that favor my team" is not a valid or legitimate argument. IF that is your reason, then fine, but it's not based in any form of truth or logic. You would have more justification and respect if you just admitted to blind homerism as your reasoning as opposed to dismissing all but your own arguments as "blathering nonsense".

dude stop with this straw man argument. Zero people on either side of this debate say that. Literally 0.0. Enough.

The main reasons to ban the play I see here and elsewhere are as follows:

1. Safety issue.
2. Aesthetic issue. The play is “ugly to watch”.
3. “Not a football play”
4. Hard to officiate.
5. Pushing the ball carrier isn’t fair.

1. has been so thoroughly debunked it’s laughable. There is nothing but evidence to the contrary on this one over the last 3-4 years of the Eagles running it and precisely no injuries coming out of it. Statistically it’s probably one of the safest plays.

2. Totally subjective. I love the play, how it looks and the fait accompli that surrounds the opposing defense. Banning a play on purely subjective grounds should not happen.

3. It’s eleven football players, lining up on the line of scrimmage and matriculating the ball over the first down marker to move the sticks or across the goal line to score a TD. I assure you, this is a football play made by football players.

4. Sorry, but that’s not the problem of the team running it. It’s a problem of officiating. Get better at officiating it.

5. This one I can at least see the point with, however, pushing the ball carrier IS A LEGAL PLAY. If you want to make that illegal, fine, but until that happens this is a perfectly legal play and banning it while not addressing the underlying issue seems to be more targeting the one team that does a play well.

 

[Da Guru]

An idea to balance any kind of pushing play.

If the QB or RB is being pushed forward by other players, the forward motion spot is disregarded, and the defense can push the runner backwards until knee or elbow is down by contact.

 

[JohnnyU]

If a defensive player isn't allowed to climb the back of a lineman to block a field goal, then why should a player be allowed to push a ball carrier?

 

[unckeyherb]

If a defensive player isn't allowed to climb the back of a lineman to block a field goal, then why should a player be allowed to push a ball carrier?

Because the first example isn't allowed in the rules and the second example currently is allowed in the rules. Its what I said, you want to remove that provision in the rules, go for it; just know that the pushing a player rule was changed in '05 because, wait for it.....it was too hard to officiate. My point is that as long as THAT rule is in force, banning the specific tush push play seems punitive to one team.

 

[FreeBaGeL]

One really quick thing. When the NFL locked the refs out, I believe it was the league—yes, the NFL—that wanted the officials to begin to become full-time employees. But the referees didn’t want that. I’m gonna go back and make sure, but I know I’ve read this a bunch of times, and it’s not by league sycophants.

You can say the NFL was being penurious and wanted them to be rated and ranked differently with incentives and such for good officials, and you can take labor’s side on this and call the NFL cheap or greedy (they often are), but in all seriousness I don’t think this is the issue to lead with when it comes to that. I think they wanted the officials to answer to them fully and be full-time. It was the refs, generally decent but often really missing some blatant calls, that wanted the autonomy and free time.

OMG buddy I am the president of the fanclub about this for the last 10+ years. I will send you an invite.

Post in thread 'Officiating has ruined the NFL.'

Nov 15, 2022

I've said the following many times.

This is the fault of NFL fans.

NFL refs are part-time employees that can't be disciplined for making bad calls. Of course they suck. The system is designed for crappy employees that do a bad job.

When the NFL tried to change both of these things, and we got the replacement refs, fans rioted. Every bad call was highlighted, people forgot how bad the regular refs were, and screamed and begged for the NFL to cave and bring the regular refs back. With the same lousy stipulations that made them suck in the first place.

I was screaming it at the time...

• FreeBaGeL

• 

Post in thread 'Bad Officiating - Discuss'

Nov 8, 2016

Something needs to be done about it.

The NFL tried to do something about it.  And the refs went on strike, and the overwhelming public support, including right here on this forum, went towards the officials.  Yeah money was at the center of the strike but there was a lot of performance quality stuff that was wrapped up in that too, and everyone gave that up when they pressured the NFL to cave.

The replacement refs were as bad or maybe a little worse than the regular refs and suddenly everyone forgot how bad the regular refs were.

Imagine that, a bunch of guys that were striking...

• FreeBaGeL

Post in thread 'nfl officials'

Oct 8, 2013

I watch an obscene number of college and NFL games due to NFL Sunday Ticket and the College Game Plan packages and I have to say there have been an inordinate number of bad calls this year,

It's like this every year. People just forgot because the media beat the replacement refs nonsense into our head.

Other than that bad call in the Hawks/Pack game coming at a really bad time and place, the regular refs are just as bad. We brought this on ourselves when we decided it was ok for refs to continue being part-time workers who can't be disciplined mid-season because the media and...

• FreeBaGeL

Post in thread 'Bad calls by the REAL Refs today?'

Jan 14, 2014

You were right, B&Brew -- these refs DO suck. But that doesn't make the replacement refs any better, because they were a joke too.

And that short-sightedness right there is why we're stuck with the horrible game-changing ref'ing that we get in the current NFL.

Obviously, the replacement refs weren't that good. But there are a few things to consider. Firstly, the guys who were brought in as replacements weren't the long-term replacements. They were the short-term guys forced to fill-in because the poor ambivalent NFL refs blocked the NFL from using the long-term replacements...

• FreeBaGeL

Post in thread 'NFLs horrible officiating'

Dec 1, 2023

I've said it before and I'll beat my head against the wall one more time.
FULL TIME OFFICIALS!
The NFL is a multigazzilion dollar operation.
Make the officials FULL TIME!
Non game days can be spent honing their craft.
The fact The NFL does NOT have full time officials is just plain STUPID!
my 2 cents

Read above. It's might be your fault that they don't, if you were one of the millions complaining about the replacement refs.

Replacement officials were less invested than the part timers working now.
Fans had every reason to complain about them.
Just cemented the case...

• FreeBaGeL

• 

 

[Statorama]

I think most people would be ok with it if it were officiated properly, because the play would almost never work. I haven't seen a successful one yet where there wasn't some flinching by the OL prior to the ball being snapped.

Just have a cameraman lined up down the line and make it eligible for booth review flags. "After booth assist - False Start - big dumb guard - ball will be placed at the 6, repeat 1st down".

That play would disappear, and everyone would be happy. Play hasn't been outlawed, but no one will run it.

 

[JohnnyU]

I think most people would be ok with it if it were officiated properly, because the play would almost never work. I haven't seen a successful one yet where there wasn't some flinching by the OL prior to the ball being snapped.

Just have a cameraman lined up down the line and make it eligible for booth review flags. "After booth assist - False Start - big dumb guard - ball will be placed at the 6, repeat 1st down".

That play would disappear, and everyone would be happy. Play hasn't been outlawed, but no one will run it.

More stuff should be reviewable. I think the refs are let off the hook because of plays that aren’t.

 

[unckeyherb]

I think most people would be ok with it if it were officiated properly, because the play would almost never work. I haven't seen a successful one yet where there wasn't some flinching by the OL prior to the ball being snapped.

Just have a cameraman lined up down the line and make it eligible for booth review flags. "After booth assist - False Start - big dumb guard - ball will be placed at the 6, repeat 1st down".

That play would disappear, and everyone would be happy. Play hasn't been outlawed, but no one will run it.

This is incorrect and its what I alluded to earlier. There have been 3 or 4 examples this year where their new RG jumps a millisecond before the ball is snapped. You need slow motion camera work to catch it. These examples have been exagerated into statements like the above to suggest that this happens all the time and that it is part of the play design. They have run this play 100's of times going back to multiple years when Kelce was still on the line and this never happened. To be clear, they do not need the millisecond jump for this to be successful. Jumping offsides is not part of the play design. It has happened a handful of times, not anywhere near every time like what is stated above.

 

[JohnnyU]

I think most people would be ok with it if it were officiated properly, because the play would almost never work. I haven't seen a successful one yet where there wasn't some flinching by the OL prior to the ball being snapped.

Just have a cameraman lined up down the line and make it eligible for booth review flags. "After booth assist - False Start - big dumb guard - ball will be placed at the 6, repeat 1st down".

That play would disappear, and everyone would be happy. Play hasn't been outlawed, but no one will run it.

This is incorrect and its what I alluded to earlier. There have been 3 or 4 examples this year where their new RG jumps a millisecond before the ball is snapped. You need slow motion camera work to catch it. These examples have been exagerated into statements like the above to suggest that this happens all the time and that it is part of the play design. They have run this play 100's of times going back to multiple years when Kelce was still on the line and this never happened. To be clear, they do not need the millisecond jump for this to be successful. Jumping offsides is not part of the play design. It has happened a handful of times, not anywhere near every time like what is stated above.

But the fumble. Dam-it, what about the fumble? Let’s talk about the fumble.

 

[Statorama]

I think most people would be ok with it if it were officiated properly, because the play would almost never work. I haven't seen a successful one yet where there wasn't some flinching by the OL prior to the ball being snapped.

Just have a cameraman lined up down the line and make it eligible for booth review flags. "After booth assist - False Start - big dumb guard - ball will be placed at the 6, repeat 1st down".

That play would disappear, and everyone would be happy. Play hasn't been outlawed, but no one will run it.

This is incorrect and its what I alluded to earlier. There have been 3 or 4 examples this year where their new RG jumps a millisecond before the ball is snapped. You need slow motion camera work to catch it. These examples have been exagerated into statements like the above to suggest that this happens all the time and that it is part of the play design. They have run this play 100's of times going back to multiple years when Kelce was still on the line and this never happened. To be clear, they do not need the millisecond jump for this to be successful. Jumping offsides is not part of the play design. It has happened a handful of times, not anywhere near every time like what is stated above.

Then it sounds like if they do it no harm no foul. But it sure would be nice to catch the false starts and the holds when they do happen.

 

[oldmanhawkins]

I think most people would be ok with it if it were officiated properly, because the play would almost never work. I haven't seen a successful one yet where there wasn't some flinching by the OL prior to the ball being snapped.

Just have a cameraman lined up down the line and make it eligible for booth review flags. "After booth assist - False Start - big dumb guard - ball will be placed at the 6, repeat 1st down".

That play would disappear, and everyone would be happy. Play hasn't been outlawed, but no one will run it.

This is incorrect and it’s what I alluded to earlier. There have been 3 or 4 examples this year where their new RG jumps a millisecond before the ball is snapped. You need slow motion camera work to catch it. These examples have been exagerated into statements like the above to suggest that this happens all the time and that it is part of the play design. They have run this play 100's of times going back to multiple years when Kelce was still on the line and this never happened. To be clear, they do not need the millisecond jump for this to be successful. Jumping offsides is not part of the play design. It has happened a handful of times, not anywhere near every time like what is stated above.

This may be true, but 3-4 offsides calls would effectively kill the advantage of this play over another short yardage approach. The whole point of the play is that it doesn’t lose yards and doesn’t risk a turnover

Before agreeing to make offsides reviewable, I’d like to know how often a player jumps a millisecond early on non-tush push plays. I’d bet it happens a lot and really doesn’t impact the outcome enough to warrant the wasted time and energy to review and reset. I’d hate to have a 80 yard run called back because upon review you see someone move early in super slow mo.

 

[JohnnyU]

I think most people would be ok with it if it were officiated properly, because the play would almost never work. I haven't seen a successful one yet where there wasn't some flinching by the OL prior to the ball being snapped.

Just have a cameraman lined up down the line and make it eligible for booth review flags. "After booth assist - False Start - big dumb guard - ball will be placed at the 6, repeat 1st down".

That play would disappear, and everyone would be happy. Play hasn't been outlawed, but no one will run it.

This is incorrect and it’s what I alluded to earlier. There have been 3 or 4 examples this year where their new RG jumps a millisecond before the ball is snapped. You need slow motion camera work to catch it. These examples have been exagerated into statements like the above to suggest that this happens all the time and that it is part of the play design. They have run this play 100's of times going back to multiple years when Kelce was still on the line and this never happened. To be clear, they do not need the millisecond jump for this to be successful. Jumping offsides is not part of the play design. It has happened a handful of times, not anywhere near every time like what is stated above.

This may be true, but 3-4 offsides calls would effectively kill the advantage of this play over another short yardage approach. The whole point of the play is that it doesn’t lose yards and doesn’t risk a turnover

Before agreeing to make offsides reviewable, I’d like to know how often a player jumps a millisecond early on non-tush push plays. I’d bet it happens a lot and really doesn’t impact the outcome enough to warrant the wasted time and energy to review and reset. I’d hate to have a 80 yard run called back because upon review you see someone move early in super slow mo.

Jawaan Taylor jumps more than a millisecond on every pass play

 

[oldmanhawkins]

I’d like to see how the Eagles respond if it’s banned. Let’s use Mailata on short yardage as a fullback. Still unstoppable but more enjoyable.

 

[BladeRunner]

I’d like to see how the Eagles respond if it’s banned. Let’s use Mailata on short yardage as a fullback. Still unstoppable but more enjoyable.

Ehh....they're going to be in trouble if they do ban it. Hurts is going to have to figure out how to get in the endzone w/out assistance. That's a tall task.

 

[oldmanhawkins]

I’d like to see how the Eagles respond if it’s banned. Let’s use Mailata on short yardage as a fullback. Still unstoppable but more enjoyable.

Ehh....they're going to be in trouble if they do ban it. Hurts is going to have to figure out how to get in the endzone w/out assistance. That's a tall task.

Eagles have scored 26 TDs this year. Five were Jalen running. But only 3 have been tush push. And two of those were on first and goal from the one. I think they’ll be ok.

 

[unckeyherb]

I think most people would be ok with it if it were officiated properly, because the play would almost never work. I haven't seen a successful one yet where there wasn't some flinching by the OL prior to the ball being snapped.

Just have a cameraman lined up down the line and make it eligible for booth review flags. "After booth assist - False Start - big dumb guard - ball will be placed at the 6, repeat 1st down".

That play would disappear, and everyone would be happy. Play hasn't been outlawed, but no one will run it.

This is incorrect and its what I alluded to earlier. There have been 3 or 4 examples this year where their new RG jumps a millisecond before the ball is snapped. You need slow motion camera work to catch it. These examples have been exagerated into statements like the above to suggest that this happens all the time and that it is part of the play design. They have run this play 100's of times going back to multiple years when Kelce was still on the line and this never happened. To be clear, they do not need the millisecond jump for this to be successful. Jumping offsides is not part of the play design. It has happened a handful of times, not anywhere near every time like what is stated above.

Then it sounds like if they do it no harm no foul. But it sure would be nice to catch the false starts and the holds when they do happen.

Agreed. I’d say calling the fumble a fumble would be correct as well.

 

[CletiusMaximus]

I’d like to see how the Eagles respond if it’s banned. Let’s use Mailata on short yardage as a fullback. Still unstoppable but more enjoyable.

Ehh....they're going to be in trouble if they do ban it. Hurts is going to have to figure out how to get in the endzone w/out assistance. That's a tall task.

Eagles have scored 26 TDs this year. Five were Jalen running. But only 3 have been tush push. And two of those were on first and goal from the one. I think they’ll be ok.

I watched a couple youtubes a while back that show 20-30 minutes of tush-push plays over and over, and one of my takeaways was that the push from behind isn't very important to the play. In many cases Hurts gets the yardage on his first dive into the pile, but often needs that 2nd or 3rd effort. I rarely get the impression the push from behind makes any real difference and I don't think banning the 'push' part of the play would make much difference if any. The main defining aspect of this play for me is the way the Eagles block it, which is different than a normal QB sneak. The majority of the time, 2 or 3 Eagles OLs go to ground at the snap, with other blockers and Hurts running the play directly over the top of the players on the ground. The notion of 'forward progress' is a big messy gray area on this play because of the way they run it. The QB has a knee and a hand down on the backs of his OL and he's stopped, but he's not on the ground and they all keep grinding. This is what makes the fumble non-call so egregious because they are giving him the benefit both ways - allowing the play to continue indefinitely but then also saying its no longer live when he fumbles. The Eagles linemen lining up offside and moving early is a crucial aspect of the play's success in order for them to get in low and get the platform set up. I am against banning the play - I think that is an extremely lazy and likely counter-productive way to solve this problem (if there is one). The 'problem' is all about the officials doing their job. It may be a hard job to do on this particular play but I can't understand why the NFL didn't do a better job of training and preparing for it this season.

 

[Deranged Hermit]

Conspiracy theory time: are they purposely botching calls for more ammo to get it banned this coming off season? They did not officiate the play this horrifically last season.

 

[oldmanhawkins]

Conspiracy theory time: are they purposely botching calls for more ammo to get it banned this coming off season? They did not officiate the play this horrifically last season.

I don’t think making bad calls is intentional as much as a natural consequence of an increased scrutiny and the league telling the refs to look for 1000 different things.

For instance, I wouldn’t be surprised if the refs were told to be quick with the whistle to minimize extra pushes which in turn led to the play getting blown dead on the fumble. Irony.

 

[Deranged Hermit]

Conspiracy theory time: are they purposely botching calls for more ammo to get it banned this coming off season? They did not officiate the play this horrifically last season.

I don’t think making bad calls is intentional as much as a natural consequence of an increased scrutiny and the league telling the refs to look for 1000 different things.

For instance, I wouldn’t be surprised if the refs were told to be quick with the whistle to minimize extra pushes which in turn led to the play getting blown dead on the fumble. Irony.

I live in Delaware, so I get to watch all of the Eagles games week in and week out. They are not my favorite team, but I do like them and will root for them over any other team other than Chicago. All that being said, they are getting away with murder.
I was against getting rid of the play last year. I've reversed that this year and it's mostly because of how bad the refs are officiating it.

 

[oldmanhawkins]

Conspiracy theory time: are they purposely botching calls for more ammo to get it banned this coming off season? They did not officiate the play this horrifically last season.

I don’t think making bad calls is intentional as much as a natural consequence of an increased scrutiny and the league telling the refs to look for 1000 different things.

For instance, I wouldn’t be surprised if the refs were told to be quick with the whistle to minimize extra pushes which in turn led to the play getting blown dead on the fumble. Irony.

I live in Delaware, so I get to watch all of the Eagles games week in and week out. They are not my favorite team, but I do like them and will root for them over any other team other than Chicago. All that being said, they are getting away with murder.
I was against getting rid of the play last year. I've reversed that this year and it's mostly because of how bad the refs are officiating it.

That’s where I am at as well. I’m also pretty certain it will be gone next year.

 

[rockaction]

OMG buddy I am the president of the fanclub about this for the last 10+ years. I will send you an invite.

LOL. Free, that’s being on top of it. I might have even gotten it from you or GroveDiesel, the more I think about it. There are a lot of things that I learn here that just by osmosis (it’s not a selfish impulse nor nefarious, I swear—usually I make sure to give credit and will @ people I’ve gotten my thoughts from) or unconscious absorption and it goes unattributed. Something spurred me to look that up.

Good on you and GroveDiesel for paying attention to the negotiations and seeing it through and seeing through the narrative.