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Son has a transgendered child in his kindergarten class (1 Viewer)

fantasycurse42 said:
makeup 
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Most adults don't let kindergarten girls wear makeup, nor would a kid be able to put it on without looking like a clown.  This sounds like the parents are encouraging this if they are sitting down and carefully putting makeup on a 5yo boys face.

 
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fantasycurse42 said:
Appreciate those that actually posted links or actual opinions without being ##### about it. 

The rest of this thread is about where I expected. Love when someone pulls out a decade old alias to post their opinion twice.

But again, I don’t think a child makes the choice to be dressed like a girl for their holiday photos right around 2 years old, that feels like a parental decision. 
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Your feelings are less relevant than case studies and the reality of whatever this family has gone through.  You may be right about this kid.  But it’s not because a two year old can’t express these feelings or ideas. 

https://www.parenting.com/blogs/show-and-tell/kate-parentingcom/story-two-year-old-girl-who-said-i-am-boy

 
fantasycurse42 said:
I don’t recall ever saying I was involving myself in the situation. At best, it’s irrelevant, unless posting anonymous stories about anonymous people on anonymous boards is somehow involving myself.
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It's my view this is none of your business. You know next to nothing what is going on here other than pictures on social media. 

If you think that is irrelevant, ok. I didn't say you were involving yourself and it's not some personal attack.

 
I honestly don't think this is a terrible question. A child is wearing makeup at two. She didn't put it on herself. I would mind my own business, too, and not judge, but this is an anonymous message board where we discuss things like this. It seems like

  • The OP has no trouble with transgendered people
  • Has taken the thread out out of concern for the young boy/girl
  • Is not going to take steps in real life to do anything buttinsky or stupid 
I don't see the problem here.  I also don't see the problem with criticism and/or information. I think people and the OP have handled this well.  

 
rockaction said:
I honestly don't think this is a terrible question. A child is wearing makeup at two. She didn't put it on herself. I would mind my own business, too, and not judge, but this is an anonymous message board where we discuss things like this. It seems like

  • The OP has no trouble with transgendered people
  • Has taken the thread out out of concern for the young boy/girl
  • Is not going to take steps in real life to do anything buttinsky or stupid 
I don't see the problem here.  I also don't see the problem with criticism and/or information. I think people and the OP have handled this well.  
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fwiw- floppinha asked to put on makeup for some pictures at two or maybe a little younger. she started with doing the makeup herself and then asked for mom to do it for pictures. 

*alert* I can see FC is very sensitive about dissenting views- I'm posting this just to offer an illustration of my experience and why I personally wouldn't read too much into a kid having pictures with makeup at that age as being forced into something against their will. and even though it would have taken getting a adjustment on my part if my son had asked to do the same thing... ultimately as has been pointed out by myself and others- think about what a great world this would be if our kids could just be supported and loved without the stigma and judgement we carry around about stuff like this (that has zero affect on anybody else's lives but the kid in question).

 
El Floppo said:
fwiw- floppinha asked to put on makeup for some pictures at two or maybe a little younger. she started with doing the makeup herself and then asked for mom to do it for pictures. 
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Thanks for the info, flop. I don't have kids so I can't really relate to stuff like that. I'm largely ignorant though I'm aware (slightly, through experience) that things we would consider gender fluidity happen at really young ages.  

Also, your stigma point is taken. I think it's hard to judge someone when that person isn't fully formed yet, and even when fully formed should be afforded the decency and respect that they deserve. 

I guess I would have been concerned with the same thing FC42 is concerned about, and that is the parents' role in all of this, which seems, through information in the thread, to be best left not judged.  

 
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fantasycurse42 said:
You’re making the assumption it’s painful for them. 

I’m making the opposite assumption. 

I don’t really have much more to say to anyone who calls me ignorant.
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Even if what you're assuming is true (the parents originally forced this), even by five years old wouldn't the boy rebel against this if he was not ok with it.

Once you were in grade school (heck even kindergarten), would you ever have gone to school wearing a dress?

 
rockaction said:
I honestly don't think this is a terrible question. A child is wearing makeup at two. She didn't put it on herself. I would mind my own business, too, and not judge, but this is an anonymous message board where we discuss things like this. It seems like

  • The OP has no trouble with transgendered people
  • Has taken the thread out out of concern for the young boy/girl
  • Is not going to take steps in real life to do anything buttinsky or stupid 
I don't see the problem here.  I also don't see the problem with criticism and/or information. I think people and the OP have handled this well.  
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It's not a terrible question.  In fact, it's a good discussion question.  It's not a topic that many people are informed about and/or comfortable about.

But it's one thing to have a viewpoint or opinion or ask a question and another to be presented some information/education/different perspective and reject those and stick to an ill-informed (and wrong) perspective.  Kinda defeats the purpose.  But, as pointed out above, some people are sensitive to dissenting viewpoints that don't align with theirs, and more importantly, when those dissenting viewpoints come from a more informed background.  Some people just seem to think they know more than others and don't like to be challenged in what they don't really know.

 
rockaction said:
Thanks for the info, flop. I don't have kids so I can't really relate to stuff like that. I'm largely ignorant though I'm aware (slightly, through experience) that things we would consider gender fluidity happen at really young ages.  

Also, your stigma point is taken. I think it's hard to judge someone when that person isn't fully formed yet, and even when fully formed should be afforded the decency and respect that they deserve. 

I guess I would have been concerned with the same thing FC42 is concerned about, and that is the parents' role in all of this, which seems, through information in the thread, to be best left not judged.  
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and I am no way an expert here- I don't research this stuff, just talk from my own immediate experiences and what I've seen around me... then extrapolate using common sense and not jumping to conclusions when i don't have the info. 

given all of that- as I've said- I wouldn't jump to the conclusion FC made that the parents are ####### liberals forcing this behavior on their kid. it's possible, sure- but I'm more likely to think parents aren't going to force what would likely be a more difficult upbringing on the kid unless it was somethign kid wanted to do. but of course, there must be freakish monsters out there who are too selfish or monsterish to care about what their kids want and want to use them as some kind of social experiment. I just think the former makes more sense... especially with the info provided.

 
El Floppo said:
this stuff completely eludes me.

my cousins kids- what are they to me? cousin once removed? they're my kids' second cousins? or did continue to misunderstand this? :bag:  
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Your cousins' kids are your kids' second cousins - I am unsure what they would be in relation to you but I thing you're correct with "cousin once removed."

 
Punxsutawney Phil said:
Most adults don't let kindergarten girls wear makeup, nor would a kid be able to put it on without looking like a clown.  This sounds like the parents are encouraging this if they are sitting down and carefully putting makeup on a 5yo boys face.
Click to expand...


El Floppo said:
fwiw- floppinha asked to put on makeup for some pictures at two or maybe a little younger. she started with doing the makeup herself and then asked for mom to do it for pictures. 

*alert* I can see FC is very sensitive about dissenting views- I'm posting this just to offer an illustration of my experience and why I personally wouldn't read too much into a kid having pictures with makeup at that age as being forced into something against their will. and even though it would have taken getting a adjustment on my part if my son had asked to do the same thing... ultimately as has been pointed out by myself and others- think about what a great world this would be if our kids could just be supported and loved without the stigma and judgement we carry around about stuff like this (that has zero affect on anybody else's lives but the kid in question).
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:shrug:  

while I don't think little kids wearing makeup regularly is somethign I'd consider "normal",  most of the kids I've been around have put it on or play with at on occasion. boys too. pretty sure my wife has pics of floppinho she took where this happened. 

so if it's something the kid wants to do- why not? we're not talking about something that's a danger to themselves or others- just playing. 

 
Stompin' Tom Connors said:
The question of what age a kid can or should decide for themselves what their sexual identity one is an interesting one to debate -- at 2? In middle school? Before/after puberty/sex? All of the sudden in a gym locker at age 39? -- but in the end it's ultimately irrelevant.

For one, kids develop their sense of self, their identity (gender, sexual, and any other aspect), and themselves at different times. 
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Thing is, sexual identity is not understood. Gay people needed to be able to say they are born that way to get any semblance of justice, fairness, liberty for themselves but there's not a lot of science behind it. The anecdotal evidence is strong - precedence in nature and the overpowering stories of "why would anyone endure what queers have from society if they weren't preternaturally what they say they are?!" - but the science isn't there. It's more likely that hormonality is a spectrum - that there males maler than others, females femaler than others, straights who are straighter than other straights and gays who are gayer than other gays and people who actually could go one way or another. There's no doubt that there is likely to be a LOT more nature than nurture in adult outcomes, but absolutism either way flies in the face of what we currently know.

What we can and do know is that intolerance is as immoral as indecency and what we should know is that minding the business of others is both.

 
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The General said:
Kinda seemed misplaced victimy to me.
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A roundabout way to make a point coming up, but i am wikkidfrikkinpissah, after all.

When i played the horses for a living, more people asked me how i got into it than any of my even-more-interesting career choices. My stock answer: "In this world you can know how your work should be done better than your boss but never get to do it; you and your mate can both be absolutely right & absolutely wrong @ the same time, you can observe that any idiot could run the country (mind you: this quote is 35 yrs old) better than those who are but never see it change. But I can study & suss out - and i was famous in Nevada racebooks for the size of the notebook i brought to work in those pre-database days - who among these dozen horses is fastest and most likely to run his best today, risk my own capital on my opinion and  have an answer in a minute & ten seconds. LOVE the purity of that."

Certainty is that strong a drug and, with many, you ain't right 'less everybody else is wrong. That's the reason boards like this exist, though i wish it wasn't

 
Cakeboy's parents let Cakeboy dress up however Cakeboy wanted, and Cakeboy turned out fine... except for that hooker in Reno, but no one ever found the body.

 
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My buddy dated a girl who had a transgendered 4-year old.  He's pretty conservative - borderline redneck really.  At first he was pretty freaked out by it but after a few weeks he would just shrug and say "She's a girl.  You know it after you talk to her for 5 minutes."  According to him, the parents - the dad is an ex-Marine - had done everything they could to try and discourage it but he had ALWAYS gravitated to girls' things and acting/dressing like a girl.  They were really worried what would happen when he/she had to start school but at some point you just have to say "#### it" and support your kid.   :shrug:

 
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I have a Trump-supportin' ex-neighbor who had 3 girls the exact same age as my 3 boys.  From the day I met them, their oldest daughter looked like a boy, dressed like a boy, talked like a boy and played sports like a boy.  She might have been 4-5 at the time.  They moved a few years ago but I still see them on FB.  The oldest is now 14 and goes by a boy's name.  From what I remember of the dad's views, I can't imagine him being too happy about this but it appears as though he's accepted it anyway.

 
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jomar said:
I have a Trump-supportin' ex-neighbor who had 3 girls the exact same age as my 3 boys.  From the day I met them, their oldest daughter looked like a boy, dressed like a boy, talked like a boy and played sports like a boy.  She might have been 4-5 at the time.  They moved a few years ago but I still see them on FB.  The oldest is now 14 and goes by a boy's name.  From what I remember of the dad's views, I can't imagine him being too happy about this but it appears as though he's accepted it anyway.
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####in liberal.

 
There is a political angle to all this. The doctor who was considered the leading expert in gender dysphoria for 30 years was discredited when he said parents are best served having the child stick to their biological assignment until at least puberty. Apparently this answer wasnt politically correct. 

Does a 5 year old know what gender they are attracted to? Does it matter? My mothers side of the family consists of 5 girls. At least 3 were full on tomboys. Sports, bugs, fishing, getting dirty, not dressing the part, and all of them ended up hetero. 

 
30 percent of transgender youth attempt suicide at least once; 42 percent report self-injury
Source: Cincinnati Children's Hospital Medical Center
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Transgender children who are allowed to present their gender identity and change their names have good mental health outcomes, according to a study released on Friday and hailed as “crucially important”.

The study, published in the March issue of the journal Pediatrics, shows the positive impact family support can have on the lives of transgender children, a group long hidden from public view.  Researchers found normal levels of depression and only slightly elevated anxiety levels in transgender children who were supported by their families. Such support included the use of pronouns that matched the child’s gender identity, calling them by the name of their choosing and, often, and allowing them to change their hairstyle and clothing to reflect their identity. Such children are also known as “socially transitioned” children.
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So, you can have kids who try to kill themselves almost one-third of the time, or - by accepting and supporting them - you can have normal kids.

Why don't you keep your mouth shut, except to be a decent person who treats others with basic humanity and, in so doing, potentially help a struggling kid live a happy life?

There are no medical interventions for transgender kids until puberty, at the earliest. At that point, some start taking "puberty blockers," hormones that delay the onset of secondary sexual traits (breasts, chest hair, etc) while otherwise permitting for natural physical development. Any kind of surgical intervention very rarely happens before age 18, and no surgeon operates until he/she is advised by a mental health professional that the patient is transgender.

 
I read an almost identical story in this thread, but I know someone (sort of, more a friend)  whose child was thinking of suicide because he was a boy but wanted to be a girl, and this was also 5 years old. Suicidal thoughts while in kindergarten. The child had been pitching a fit about wanting dresses and dolls since before she could talk. The parents were military, conservative, but after 3 years of fighting against it, they decided to let the boy live as a girl.

Now she's happy, well adjusted, and does well in school. I can't see a better outcome than that.

Now, if a parent is forcing a gender identity, that's a different story. That's not right.

 
Max Power said:
There is a political angle to all this. The doctor who was considered the leading expert in gender dysphoria for 30 years was discredited when he said parents are best served having the child stick to their biological assignment until at least puberty. Apparently this answer wasnt politically correct. 

Does a 5 year old know what gender they are attracted to? Does it matter? My mothers side of the family consists of 5 girls. At least 3 were full on tomboys. Sports, bugs, fishing, getting dirty, not dressing the part, and all of them ended up hetero. 
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Why do you think being a "tomboy" runs parallel with gender identity or sexuality? They don't necessarily go together. For some, they may. For others, they're just girls pushing outside of the traditional gender roles/norms our society has pushed for a long time. 

Also, yes. Many kids know they are gay or straight by 5 or so. Many don't. These things aren't cut and dried and you probably shouldn't declare there is a "political angle" without more knowledge. Almost none of the comments in this thread are political. 

 
ConnSKINS26 said:
Why do you think being a "tomboy" runs parallel with gender identity or sexuality? They don't necessarily go together. For some, they may. For others, they're just girls pushing outside of the traditional gender roles/norms our society has pushed for a long time. 

Also, yes. Many kids know they are gay or straight by 5 or so. Many don't. These things aren't cut and dried and you probably shouldn't declare there is a "political angle" without more knowledge. Almost none of the comments in this thread are political. 
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I think "tomboy" can run along these lines.  It means different things to different people.  How far does someone need push outside the traditional gender roles to be considered transgendered?  Should I leave that up to a 5 year old?  I don't recall being sexualized as a 5 years old. 

The political angle was declared by the American association of Pediatric doctors.  Should a doctor operate by science or by their political beliefs?  I mean you are backing them into a corner and making them pick one side or the other...

 
Man this forum is brutal sometimes (far far more often then it should be imo). 

Those of you jumping on @fantasycurse42 about minding his own business are just looking for a chance pile on.  He is minding his own business.  Having a discussion in the privacy of his own home with his wife and simply posting a question here to gauge where he's at with his though process are somehow not acceptable now?  This is somehow not minding his own business. Really?  

Agree with his thought or not (which he asked for input on), but the need for the group attack here is crazy.

 
Max Power said:
I think "tomboy" can run along these lines.  It means different things to different people.  How far does someone need push outside the traditional gender roles to be considered transgendered?  Should I leave that up to a 5 year old?  I don't recall being sexualized as a 5 years old. 

The political angle was declared by the American association of Pediatric doctors.  Should a doctor operate by science or by their political beliefs?  I mean you are backing them into a corner and making them pick one side or the other...
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Being transgender isn't necessarily about going outside gender norms/roles. It's about identifying as a different gender altogether. I think you're conflating some things that aren't the same

 
ConnSKINS26 said:
Being transgender isn't necessarily about going outside gender norms/roles. It's about identifying as a different gender altogether. I think you're conflating some things that aren't the same
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You are talking about complex issues.  Issues that a 5 year old isn't capable of comprehending.  Yet whatever they feel at 5 is going to be their lifelong decision?  The "detrans" movement is hitting an all time high for those that care.   A portion of people who go through a full sexual transition are no happier than they were before the transition.   Many of these people were well informed at the point they made their decision. 

I'm ok if parents want to cater to their children, but once they start talking physical and hormonal changes, we need to have a discussion.

 
I didn’t read all 4 pages of thread but if I had a kid I would keep it quiet until the right time.  I see no point promoting transgender until puberty.    

 
stlrams said:
I didn’t read all 4 pages of thread but if I had a kid I would keep it quiet until the right time.  I see no point promoting transgender until puberty.    
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Like just about anything else related to raising children, I think it depends on the kid. If it is doing emotional damage to them to try to be a gender they don't identify with, I say start the process whenever it makes sense.

Also, and this is just my opinion, if I was sure my son wanted to be a woman, I would try and make sure the surgery happens before puberty. No need for a flood of testosterone to irrevocably change their body/face to something they hate.

 
Green and Gold said:
Like just about anything else related to raising children, I think it depends on the kid. If it is doing emotional damage to them to try to be a gender they don't identify with, I say start the process whenever it makes sense.

Also, and this is just my opinion, if I was sure my son wanted to be a woman, I would try and make sure the surgery happens before puberty. No need for a flood of testosterone to irrevocably change their body/face to something they hate.
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The above is ridiculous..Personal example but i suspected my sons best friend was gay at around 8-9 years of age.  His parents just wanted to roll with the situation which I agree with.   

 
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