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Sourcing and why it is important (1 Viewer)

I'm starting to think that we should add the NYT to our do-not-cite list.  It's as if they're deliberately looking for the self-destruct button or something.

 
I'm starting to think that we should add the NYT to our do-not-cite list.  It's as if they're deliberately looking for the self-destruct button or something.
Care to unpack that?

Oddly enough...those that post links to places like GatewayPundit and others...already have the NYT on the do not cite list.  It is one I already am careful using because I know people will dismiss it no matter how factual.

 
It's mainly a joke, but the opinion side of that paper seems to be turning into Romper Room.  I'm sure the people on the "news" side of the paper are probably mortified.
Oh sure..and always try to separate talk of this source stuff between opinion and news sides.

Opinion sides should never be pushed as some big source of facts.

 
:lmao:

Just one link, just one, of you calling out any of the opinion pieces in the Russia thread.
Or how about, since you are making this inference, just one link of me supporting an opinion piece in that thread used as fact?  Because opinions have their place...but presented as a factual source of something...that is different.

And you know this...and you know your request was in bad faith to try and take a shot...

 
Or how about, since you are making this inference, just one link of me supporting an opinion piece in that thread used as fact?  Because opinions have their place...but presented as a factual source of something...that is different.

And you know this...and you know your request was in bad faith to try and take a shot...
Like I've said 1000 times you demand links from your approved sources all day long and but never provide any.  This whole source thread is total joke schtick.

 
He still hasn’t given his list of good sources and why?
When was I asked for one? 

I did provide a link to MT's thread about this that received feedback from the right and left.  Its not me approving sources though, that would be sort of pointless and be accused of bias.  I have referenced using allsides, adfontes, mediabias fact check...and stated Id stay away from sources that are all the way to the right or left and who consistently fail fact checks or are beyond the areas of reliability in adfontes searches.

And the post you replied to is a sign of bad faith posting.  A poster who has been told over and over that I will never respond to him...wondering why I don't respond to his demands.

I do, however, respond with links when asked by those I engage in discussion with. 

 
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Make all of us an exhaustive list on

A) Whom you consider reliable and reputable sources.

And

B) Whom you consider NOT reliable and NOT reputable sources ( Certainly there are others you see that way besides Gateway Pundit and Breibart)

Posting a link to a cross section chart, a 2016 subjective thread on the matter, and some websites claiming neutrality isn't enough here.

You want to criticize people, from your perspective, without setting a parameter, based specifically under that perspective, under which you criticize them.


When was I asked for one? 

I did provide a link to MT's thread about this that received feedback from the right and left.  Its not me approving sources though, that would be sort of pointless and be accused of bias.  I have referenced using allsides, adfontes, mediabias fact check...and stated Id stay away from sources that are all the way to the right or left and who consistently fail fact checks or are beyond the areas of reliability in adfontes searches.

And the post you replied to is a sign of bad faith posting.  A poster who has been told over and over that I will never respond to him...wondering why I don't respond to his demands.

I do, however, respond with links when asked by those I engage in discussion with. 

 
You are 100% correct, I wonder what the excuse would be here? Hopefully not another deflection on GG posts not meeting the format the makes everyone happy. 

 
I put him on ignore...pretty sure I even told him Id no longer respond to him.  So...not really going to respond to challenges from someone Ive ignored and won't respond to.  Would be pretty odd for anyone to expect someone to do so.

And Ive answered you as to why I would not put out such a list myself...there are resources for that including a thread on this board.  Its been a topic more than just mine here...including Joe bringing up the chart from adfontes before.

 
I put him on ignore...pretty sure I even told him Id no longer respond to him.  So...not really going to respond to challenges from someone Ive ignored and won't respond to.  Would be pretty odd for anyone to expect someone to do so.

And Ive answered you as to why I would not put out such a list myself...there are resources for that including a thread on this board.  Its been a topic more than just mine here...including Joe bringing up the chart from adfontes before.
How do we get on this list?  Because that would solve everything.  It's the genesis of this thread actually.  You running around demanding links, demanding better sources.....something you never do yourself as the self appointed Source Authority.

 
When was I asked for one? 

I did provide a link to MT's thread about this that received feedback from the right and left.  Its not me approving sources though, that would be sort of pointless and be accused of bias.  I have referenced using allsides, adfontes, mediabias fact check...and stated Id stay away from sources that are all the way to the right or left and who consistently fail fact checks or are beyond the areas of reliability in adfontes searches.

And the post you replied to is a sign of bad faith posting.  A poster who has been told over and over that I will never respond to him...wondering why I don't respond to his demands.

I do, however, respond with links when asked by those I engage in discussion with. 
Oh I see.  Maybe we should make a list of posters that will never address your source nonsense and see if you stop asking  

 
The AP’s published rules about anonymous sources is a good read.

https://www.ap.org/about/news-values-and-principles/telling-the-story/anonymous-sources
Cool.  So, when do you think the MSM will start actually following those rules?
They would probably say they did follow them. 

They would say things like well we didnt reach out for comment because Trump is mean to us. 

We definitely think that the president being mad is a very significant story. 

We only used one source because we felt the source did such an expert job describing all the details of this very significant story.

Also we feel the emotions of the president are a factual matter that informal advice givers can definitely give factual statements about. 

 
How do we get on this list?  Because that would solve everything.  It's the genesis of this thread actually.  You running around demanding links, demanding better sources.....something you never do yourself as the self appointed Source Authority.
I have not demanded anything...lets dispense with that spin of what has gone on right now.

Nor have I ever appointed myself the source authority...

Can we please be honest rather than making such false statements about people?

 
Ok, everybody sorry about that whole fire extinguisher thing, but...but... now we have it! This anonymous source is definitely right. It was bear spray!!!

Also notice how they were too lazy to get an actual quote from Eugene Goodman and used Mitt Romney relaying something from Goodman.

Journalism is dead. 

 
Ok, everybody sorry about that whole fire extinguisher thing, but...but... now we have it! This anonymous source is definitely right. It was bear spray!!!
From your link:

One leading theory that investigators are considering is that the suspects sprayed an irritant, perhaps bear spray
:shrug:   You believe the qualified mention of 'bear spray' as an admitted theory, is dirty pool?

Regarding a quote from Goodman ... you don't have to trust Romney. I guess anyone and everyone could be spinning a narrative. But for the unaligned readers, here's something to consider from a January 14th Washington Post article -- and yeah, the sources aren't named. Feel free to disregard.
 

Friends who have talked to Goodman since the riot, including two fellow officers and a former colleague, said he has been ambivalent about the limelight. Generally private and reserved, the D.C. native has started to worry about becoming a potential target of far-right extremist groups that have vowed to return to D.C. this weekend and for next week’s inauguration.

“He said he’d do the same thing again. He’s not looking for any accolades,” said one friend, a Capitol Police officer who spoke on the condition of anonymity because he had not been authorized to speak on the issue. “But the attention is a little scary for him.”

Neither Goodman nor a Capitol Police spokeswoman responded to requests for an interview.

 
From your link:

:shrug:   You believe the qualified mention of 'bear spray' as an admitted theory, is dirty pool?

Regarding a quote from Goodman ... you don't have to trust Romney. I guess anyone and everyone could be spinning a narrative. But for the unaligned readers, here's something to consider from a January 14th Washington Post article -- and yeah, the sources aren't named. Feel free to disregard.
 
I am objecting to an anonymous source being used yet again. 

You would think that perhaps after screwing this up so bad, they might actually do their homework better and say yeah, maybe this time we need to follow the book. 

Why is the bear spray theory so confidential that you cant get somebody to go on the record? 

That should immediately be a red flag. It was immediately a red flag about the fire extinguisher. 

Eta: also lets not gloss ober that the link aboug it being a complicated case takes us to a story about Howard Liebengood

 
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I am objecting to an anonymous source being used yet again. 

You would think that perhaps after screwing this up so bad, they might actually do their homework better and say yeah, maybe this time we need to follow the book.
The flaw in your entire premise is that the outcome of the story would have been the same whether the source was named or not.

 
Why is the bear spray theory so confidential that you cant get somebody to go on the record? 
The protocols of an ongoing investigation, perhaps? The source was almost certainly an unauthorized leak, as opposed to a fabrication.

Academically, I understand your stance regarding off-the-record sources. Yes, there is room for shenanigans and abuse. I also understand that without off-the-record sources, the average newspaper could be printed on an index card. There’s a balance to be struck.

...

Is your general concern with anonymous sources more “I have no doubt the story is fabricated” or more “While likely true, we can’t rule out that the story was fabricated”?

I’m also curious about what news sources you implicitly trust — if you’ve found one that generally eschews anonymous sources.

 
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The protocols of an ongoing investigation, perhaps? The source was almost certainly an unauthorized leak, as opposed to a fabrication.

Academically, I understand your stance regarding off-the-record sources. Yes, there is room for shenanigans and abuse. I also understand that without off-the-record sources, the average newspaper could be printed on an index card. There’s a balance to be struck.

...

Is your general concern with anonymous sources more “I have no doubt the story is fabricated” or more “While likely true, we can’t rule out that the story was fabricated”?

I’m also curious about what news sources you implicitly trust — if you’ve found one that generally eschews anonymous sources.
Do you not realize the condundrum of the bold? 

 
Here is a perfect example of a story from a less than desirable source that we cant get elsewhwere.

The first paragraph is terrible journalism. Parsed quotes are poor form when used to complete your sentences. 

But they have tons of quotes in there. And actual quotes are almost always accurate when publications use them. Even if I view that from a very skeptical lens and cut out all the poor form, it still shows some pretty crappy governance. 

 
When was I asked for one? 

I did provide a link to MT's thread about this that received feedback from the right and left.  Its not me approving sources though, that would be sort of pointless and be accused of bias.  I have referenced using allsides, adfontes, mediabias fact check...and stated Id stay away from sources that are all the way to the right or left and who consistently fail fact checks or are beyond the areas of reliability in adfontes searches.

And the post you replied to is a sign of bad faith posting.  A poster who has been told over and over that I will never respond to him...wondering why I don't respond to his demands.

I do, however, respond with links when asked by those I engage in discussion with. 
I told you MT isn't credible.    He is the OAN of FBG.  His lineup dominator  picks are not trustworthy.

 
I have not demanded anything...lets dispense with that spin of what has gone on right now.

Nor have I ever appointed myself the source authority...

Can we please be honest rather than making such false statements about people?
If you aren't an authority how can you question sources and links.    Answer,  cuz u want to.     

 
I told you MT isn't credible.    He is the OAN of FBG.  His lineup dominator  picks are not trustworthy.
You can say he isn’t reliable all you want...the list was created by people from both sides adding things to it and it was one source to point people to.

Your claims about his FF picks and your beef with him really aren’t relevant to the discussion.

 
Anybody can question them.  But they better come with some support as to why.
So are you the authority.     I knew it.     (As an aside.   I appreciate  that you post something  then you have 50 unrelated responses --attacks)   its like you get a taste.

 
You can say he isn’t reliable all you want...the list was created by people from both sides adding things to it and it was one source to point people to.

Your claims about his FF picks and your beef with him really aren’t relevant to the discussion.
He's  not credible cuz I say he's not.   If his picks are bad.  His opinions are bad.     He is oan

 
You can say he isn’t reliable all you want...the list was created by people from both sides adding things to it and it was one source to point people to.

Your claims about his FF picks and your beef with him really aren’t relevant to the discussion.
I have no beef with him.

 
Literally zero about this thread has a thing to do with an ego.  But glad you could stop by with more unsolicited insults.

 
Journalism 101:

#1 Do not use anonymous sources

#2 Do not print hacked data

#3 Only use facts independantly  verified

#4 Thoroughly vent the story and sources

#5 Do not report hate-filled rhetoric

#6 Ignore #1 thru #5 if you are trashing conservatives. 

 
It's mainly a joke, but the opinion side of that paper seems to be turning into Romper Room.  I'm sure the people on the "news" side of the paper are probably mortified.
There's a place for editorial opinions, but they really should be separate from news reporting -- like, the same institution should not do both, IMO.

There should be news reporting agencies like Reuters, and there should be aggregators of opinion pieces like The Atlantic. And the opinion pieces should have fact-checking and editorial standards just like the news pieces do. But putting both together in the same publication is a bad idea, IMO. It made sense when newspapers were physical papers that went out for delivery. There was an economy of scale in delivering both kinds of pieces at once.

But today, both the New York Times and the Wall Street Journal devalue their news organizations by tying them to dumb editorial opinions.

Unfortunately, I believe it's the opinion pieces that drive sales. The New York Times, the Washington Post, and the Wall Street Journal all have roughly the same news. They are distinguished mainly by their opinion columnists. Would you rather read Frank Bruni or Megan McArdle? Individual opinion columnists have their own brands, while individual news reporters generally don't. (Maggie Haberman is probably the political news reporter with the best name recognition, but how many people choose the NYT over WaPo because of her?)

The traditional business model appears to be in for a challenge. The top opinion writers seem to be able to make more money going it alone on Substack than by working for large publications. (The top 10 writers on Substack collectively make more than $15 million per year in subscriptions already, and it's just getting going. I doubt any writer at the NYT comes close.) If the Substack model draws away the best opinion-writing talent, leaving the traditional papers to mostly cover just the news, I don't know how that will affect the industry.

On the one hand, it will separate news reporting from opinion writing, which I'd view as a positive development. On the other hand, it would make it even harder for news publishers to remain viable (to the extent that the opinion pages subsidize the news), which would be a negative development. On balance, who knows?

 
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Unfortunately, I believe it's the opinion pieces that drive sales. The New York Times, the Washington Post, and the Wall Street Journal all have roughly the same news. They are distinguished mainly by their opinion columnists. Would you rather read Frank Bruni or Megan McArdle? Individual opinion columnists have their own brands, while individual news reporters generally don't.
I agree with your post overall, but I wanted to especially call out this part because this is exactly why I subscribe to WaPo and not NYT.  Most of NYT's columnists are just kind of boring.  Krugman's been writing the same three columns for the past decade, and their other regulars are just generally stale and past their expiration dates.  WaPo has some folks like that too, but overall their bench seems a lot deeper.  

Obviously this is just my personal taste.  

 
I agree with your post overall, but I wanted to especially call out this part because this is exactly why I subscribe to WaPo and not NYT.  Most of NYT's columnists are just kind of boring.  Krugman's been writing the same three columns for the past decade, and their other regulars are just generally stale and past their expiration dates.  WaPo has some folks like that too, but overall their bench seems a lot deeper.  
One of the good things about smaller-market newspapers is that they draw opinion pieces from all over. There's about 8-10 national regulars that get something like 3 columns per week in the New Orleans Times-Picayune/Advocate alongside the local columnists. George Will, Cal Thomas, and Rich Lowry from the right appear frequently, as do Dana Milbank, Michael Gerson, and David Brooks from the center, and Froma Harrop, and Eugene Robinson from the left.

 
A wallet-sized LA Times or Wall Street Journal would be handy.
It would pretty much only shrink the politics section and would mostly just eliminate the bad reporting.

Never is obviously not realistic, but almost never is actually the way it is supposed to be done. 

I remember reading an editor(might have been a journalism professor) say that anonymously sourced articles are like withdrawals from a bank of trust. That every time you take a withdrawal it takes a long time to build the balance back up. So you better be certain that you need to actually make a withdrawal and drain your balance. 

 

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