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Steeler Fake FG For TD -- Scoring (1 Viewer)

K

kyoun1e

Footballguy
Curious how this is being scored in various leagues.

In my ESPN league, there doesn't seem to be a scoring category for this so it's not showing up. There is a scoring category for "Blocked Punt or FG Return For TD" but I don't see 6 points scored for this yet, and it really wasn't a "FG return."

In my CBS league it is since it just gives all "defensive and special teams TDs" 6 points.

Gotta think some games will be determined by that flukey play.

 
Pip's Invitation said:
In most leagues I know of, it’s not a special teams play unless there was a kick. Therefore, this was an offensive play with the TD thrown by a kicker and caught by an OL.
Click to expand...
My league Kicker gets credit for a TD pass if you started him.

 
Doesn’t it seems like this (almost) exact question comes up each year?  Trick play where the punt or FG team lines up & scores a TD then there are people saying “why doesn’t my D/ST get those points?”  I get that there might be special scoring rules, but unless your league has those special rules (in which case you wouldn’t need to ask about it on here), it doesn’t matter if the punter or kicker was on the field, it’s an offensive play.  It’s not a special teams play when Sanu takes a wildcat snap, or when Taysom Hill does a read option (where he doesn’t actually “read” anything; he just keeps it every time), so why should it be a ST play b/c a different player takes the snap?  Until there’s a kick, the team with the ball is on offense; when the kick occurs, they become a ST unit, for FF purposes.

 
This situation comes up every year.

The vast majority of fantasy leagues don't consider this to be a "Special Teams" play, because the vast majority of fantasy leagues have an outdated mentality.

When fantasy football was first invented, it was based on mimicking the exact scoring actions of NFL games -- so, fantasy players only got points for touchdowns (if the NFL players didn't score points for yardage, why should fantasy players get points for it?); receivers and quarterbacks only got 3 points each for receiving TDs (because it would be sacrilege to have a fantasy touchdown be "worth more points" than a real touchdown); receivers only scored points when they caught touchdowns (not when they rushed or passed or had a kick return TD), etc.

Eventually, the idea of the D/ST was incorporated into fantasy football. And the same mentality carried over into D/ST scoring. The thought process was basically, "If the NFL doesn't consider it to be a D/ST play, then fantasy football shouldn't consider it to be a D/ST play, either."

And since fake punts are not categorized as a "Special Teams" play by NFL statisticians, therefore most fantasy leagues follow suit.

It's outdated logic, IMO.

Fantasy football has evolved significantly. Most leagues now include a large number of scoring methods that would have been considered heresy in the 1980s. But the scoring evolution shouldn't stop with offense and defense. It's time for special teams scoring to evolve, too.

I understand the arguments against it:

- "It's not technically a Special Teams play!" (So what? That's just a phrase used by the NFL to track kicking stats. Fantasy football shouldn't be beholden to it.)

- "Slippery slope! What if Tom Brady goes into punt formation and then throws a TD?!? OMG!!" (So? If Brady scored a safety you'd still credit the D/ST, right?)

- "It's too hard to track!" (That may have been true in the '80s but not anymore.)

- "If a kicker scores a TD, we shouldn't give points to both the kicker and the D/ST!" (Why not? Fantasy leagues do that all the time on kick return TDs.)

One last note: although the NFL may not consider fake punts to be Special Teams plays for statistical purposes, it's clear that the NFL does consider these TD to have been made by the "Special Teams unit" (for lack of a better phrase), as evidenced by the fact that the NFL's official Special Teams Player Of The Week has frequently included players who scored TDs on fake punts or field goals.

 
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[scooter] said:
This situation comes up every year.

The vast majority of fantasy leagues don't consider this to be a "Special Teams" play, because the vast majority of fantasy leagues have an outdated mentality.

When fantasy football was first invented, it was based on mimicking the exact scoring actions of NFL games -- so, fantasy players only got points for touchdowns (if the NFL players didn't score points for yardage, why should fantasy players get points for it?); receivers and quarterbacks only got 3 points each for receiving TDs (because it would be sacrilege to have a fantasy touchdown be "worth more points" than a real touchdown); receivers only scored points when they caught touchdowns (not when they rushed or passed or had a kick return TD), etc.

Eventually, the idea of the D/ST was incorporated into fantasy football. And the same mentality carried over into D/ST scoring. The thought process was basically, "If the NFL doesn't consider it to be a D/ST play, then fantasy football shouldn't consider it to be a D/ST play, either."

And since fake punts are not categorized as a "Special Teams" play by NFL statisticians, therefore most fantasy leagues follow suit.

It's outdated logic, IMO.

Fantasy football has evolved significantly. Most leagues now include a large number of scoring methods that would have been considered heresy in the 1980s. But the scoring evolution shouldn't stop with offense and defense. It's time for special teams scoring to evolve, too.

I understand the arguments against it:

- "It's not technically a Special Teams play!" (So what? That's just a phrase used by the NFL to track kicking stats. Fantasy football shouldn't be beholden to it.)

- "Slippery slope! What if Tom Brady goes into punt formation and then throws a TD?!? OMG!!" (So? If Brady scored a safety you'd still credit the D/ST, right?)

- "It's too hard to track!" (That may have been true in the '80s but not anymore.)

- "If a kicker scores a TD, we shouldn't give points to both the kicker and the D/ST!" (Why not? Fantasy leagues do that all the time on kick return TDs.)

One last note: although the NFL may not consider fake punts to be Special Teams plays for statistical purposes, it's clear that the NFL does consider these TD to have been made by the "Special Teams unit" (for lack of a better phrase), as evidenced by the fact that the NFL's official Special Teams Player Of The Week has frequently included players who scored TDs on fake punts or field goals.
Click to expand...
It's not outdated logic at all.  It's just logic.  IMO your points in 1, 2 and 4 are just flat out wrong and no one makes the "It's too hard to track" argument.  If anything with everything being online those plays are easier to track.  Maybe not the first time it happens but once you have the settings done and renew the league setting for these kinds of plays are taken care of.

 
It’s quite simple in our league, passing TD’s are worth six points.  Boswell had a passing TD.  Boswell gets six points.

Luckily for me, I have Boswell as my kicker, I get six points.

 
[scooter] said:
- "If a kicker scores a TD, we shouldn't give points to both the kicker and the D/ST!" (Why not? Fantasy leagues do that all the time on kick return TDs.)
Click to expand...
None of my leagues give double points for kick returns.  If Lockett returns a kickoff the points go the Seattle Def/ST it does not go to Lockett the WR.  I am sure there are some out there but I have never seen a league that gives double points to the returner and D/ST.

 
Gally said:
None of my leagues give double points for kick returns.  If Lockett returns a kickoff the points go the Seattle Def/ST it does not go to Lockett the WR.  I am sure there are some out there but I have never seen a league that gives double points to the returner and D/ST.
Click to expand...
One of mine does.  If Tyreek Hill returns a TD from a punt, I get 6 points for him in my WR spot.  This is separate from the owner that has the KC D/ST.

 
bryhamm said:
One of mine does.  If Tyreek Hill returns a TD from a punt, I get 6 points for him in my WR spot.  This is separate from the owner that has the KC D/ST.
Click to expand...
either way is fine it just better be known before the season starts so you don't get any conflicts mid season...hahaa

 
Gally said:
None of my leagues give double points for kick returns.  If Lockett returns a kickoff the points go the Seattle Def/ST it does not go to Lockett the WR.  I am sure there are some out there but I have never seen a league that gives double points to the returner and D/ST.
Click to expand...
Well it’s def possible. First year we did Returns they were double counted. Fixed it in the offseason.

 
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Gally said:
None of my leagues give double points for kick returns.  If Lockett returns a kickoff the points go the Seattle Def/ST it does not go to Lockett the WR.  I am sure there are some out there but I have never seen a league that gives double points to the returner and D/ST.
Click to expand...
So....who get's the passing TD in your leagues? The QB or the guy who caught the pass?

 
Pip's Invitation said:
In most leagues I know of, it’s not a special teams play unless there was a kick. Therefore, this was an offensive play with the TD thrown by a kicker and caught by an OL.
Click to expand...
i lost a magic football playoff game last year due to the (mis)interpretation of this rule by my stupid commish.  blocked punt TD...the NFL rules say if the ball doesn't cross the LOS that it's not a punt....so (i say) it's a team defense TD NOT a special teams punt return TD. how could it be a punt return TD if there isn't a punt? i'm still irritated about that one. 

 
renesauz said:
So....who get's the passing TD in your leagues? The QB or the guy who caught the pass?
Click to expand...
The player that threw the pass (usually a QB but could be WR, RB, Punter, Etc) gets the PASSING TD and the player that caught the pass (WR/RB/TE/O-lineman/ETC) gets the RECEIVING TD.

 
Gally said:
renesauz said:
So....who get's the passing TD in your leagues? The QB or the guy who caught the pass?
Click to expand...
The player that threw the pass (usually a QB but could be WR, RB, Punter, Etc) gets the PASSING TD and the player that caught the pass (WR/RB/TE/O-lineman/ETC) gets the RECEIVING TD.
Click to expand...
Just because you've come up with 2 different names, that doesn't change the fact that they refer to the exact same event.

Using the same logic, you could say "The player who scored gets the RETURN TD and the players that provided all of the blocking get the BLOCKING TD".

 
ShaqAttaq said:
Pip's Invitation said:
In most leagues I know of, it’s not a special teams play unless there was a kick. Therefore, this was an offensive play with the TD thrown by a kicker and caught by an OL.
Click to expand...
i lost a magic football playoff game last year due to the (mis)interpretation of this rule by my stupid commish.  blocked punt TD...the NFL rules say if the ball doesn't cross the LOS that it's not a punt....so (i say) it's a team defense TD NOT a special teams punt return TD. how could it be a punt return TD if there isn't a punt? i'm still irritated about that one. 
Click to expand...
You bring up a good point and it's actually a pretty good illustration why fantasy football shouldn't strictly follow the NFL's definition of "Special Teams".

 
[scooter] said:
Just because you've come up with 2 different names, that doesn't change the fact that they refer to the exact same event.

Using the same logic, you could say "The player who scored gets the RETURN TD and the players that provided all of the blocking get the BLOCKING TD".
Click to expand...
I was actually using NFL terms.  I did not come up with the two different terms.  There is a difference between a "passing" td and a "receiving" td.  Yes it is the same play but there are two different actions and they are identified as such. 

For a return TD it is one event.  If you have a league that uses a Defense/Special Teams then that event is considered a "return" td and is credited accordingly. 

I understand how you are trying to equate a TD pass as one event that gives credit to two different people and equating that to a return TD possibly being credited to two different "people".  I just see it as an apples to oranges comparison and don't think it is applicable.  Personally, I don't like using a Def/ST.  I much prefer either going full IDP or doing away with the Def/ST completely.  Then you don't have this issue.

 
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My league gives points for everything a player accomplishes out on the field, even if outside traditional position categories. He threw the pass, he earned the points.

 
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Gally said:
[scooter] said:
Just because you've come up with 2 different names, that doesn't change the fact that they refer to the exact same event.

Using the same logic, you could say "The player who scored gets the RETURN TD and the players that provided all of the blocking get the BLOCKING TD".
Click to expand...
I was actually using NFL terms.  I did not come up with the two different terms.  There is a difference between a "passing" td and a "receiving" td.  Yes it is the same play but there are two different actions and they are identified as such. 

For a return TD it is one event.  If you have a league that uses a Defense/Special Teams then that event is considered a "return" td and is credited accordingly. 

I understand how you are trying to equate a TD pass as one event that gives credit to two different people and equating that to a return TD possibly being credited to two different "people".  I just see it as an apples to oranges comparison and don't think it is applicable.  Personally, I don't like using a Def/ST.  I much prefer either going full IDP or doing away with the Def/ST completely.  Then you don't have this issue.
Click to expand...
It's true that the NFL uses those specific terms, but they don't actually count the "PASSING TD" as a score. For example, if you were to look up this season's leaders in total points scored, you would see that there are dozens of quarterbacks that have scored zero points this year (Luck, Rodgers, Rivers, etc.).

What we think of as a "PASSING TD" is really more like an assist in basketball. 

Therefore, when fantasy football leagues award points to both the thrower and the receiver, it is essentially the same concept as awarding points to both the kick returner and the D/ST.

 
[scooter] said:
It's true that the NFL uses those specific terms, but they don't actually count the "PASSING TD" as a score. For example, if you were to look up this season's leaders in total points scored, you would see that there are dozens of quarterbacks that have scored zero points this year (Luck, Rodgers, Rivers, etc.).

What we think of as a "PASSING TD" is really more like an assist in basketball. 

Therefore, when fantasy football leagues award points to both the thrower and the receiver, it is essentially the same concept as awarding points to both the kick returner and the D/ST.
Click to expand...
I never stated that it was a score.  I just stated what it is categorized as.  I understand how NFL counts points and who they are credited to.  I am not debating that issue.  My opinion is that when a player is a kick returner he is part of the special teams unit and that unit should get the credit for the TD.  Not the individual player.  It's my preference.  There is no right or wrong.  But I do believe your attempt to equate a return TD as the same thing as a passing TD is not correct.  It is not even close to being the same.

 
[scooter] said:
Just because you've come up with 2 different names, that doesn't change the fact that they refer to the exact same event.

Using the same logic, you could say "The player who scored gets the RETURN TD and the players that provided all of the blocking get the BLOCKING TD".
Click to expand...


It may the same event but it is two skilled actions by two different players to accomplish that event.  Trying to prove you’re smarter than everyone else in the face of widely accepted tradition and rules that make a game fun and interesting rarely turns out well.

.

 
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ShaqAttaq said:
i lost a magic football playoff game last year due to the (mis)interpretation of this rule by my stupid commish.  blocked punt TD...the NFL rules say if the ball doesn't cross the LOS that it's not a punt....so (i say) it's a team defense TD NOT a special teams punt return TD. how could it be a punt return TD if there isn't a punt? i'm still irritated about that one. 
Click to expand...
Just for my own curiosity...

Do you draft Team Defense different than Special Teams?

 
no separate team defense/special teams. punt/kick return TDs don't get credited to the defense in that league's format

 
Last edited by a moderator:
[scooter] said:
This situation comes up every year.

The vast majority of fantasy leagues don't consider this to be a "Special Teams" play, because the vast majority of fantasy leagues have an outdated mentality.

When fantasy football was first invented, it was based on mimicking the exact scoring actions of NFL games -- so, fantasy players only got points for touchdowns (if the NFL players didn't score points for yardage, why should fantasy players get points for it?); receivers and quarterbacks only got 3 points each for receiving TDs (because it would be sacrilege to have a fantasy touchdown be "worth more points" than a real touchdown); receivers only scored points when they caught touchdowns (not when they rushed or passed or had a kick return TD), etc.

Eventually, the idea of the D/ST was incorporated into fantasy football. And the same mentality carried over into D/ST scoring. The thought process was basically, "If the NFL doesn't consider it to be a D/ST play, then fantasy football shouldn't consider it to be a D/ST play, either."

And since fake punts are not categorized as a "Special Teams" play by NFL statisticians, therefore most fantasy leagues follow suit.

It's outdated logic, IMO.

Fantasy football has evolved significantly. Most leagues now include a large number of scoring methods that would have been considered heresy in the 1980s. But the scoring evolution shouldn't stop with offense and defense. It's time for special teams scoring to evolve, too.

I understand the arguments against it:

- "It's not technically a Special Teams play!" (So what? That's just a phrase used by the NFL to track kicking stats. Fantasy football shouldn't be beholden to it.)

- "Slippery slope! What if Tom Brady goes into punt formation and then throws a TD?!? OMG!!" (So? If Brady scored a safety you'd still credit the D/ST, right?)

- "It's too hard to track!" (That may have been true in the '80s but not anymore.)

- "If a kicker scores a TD, we shouldn't give points to both the kicker and the D/ST!" (Why not? Fantasy leagues do that all the time on kick return TDs.)

One last note: although the NFL may not consider fake punts to be Special Teams plays for statistical purposes, it's clear that the NFL does consider these TD to have been made by the "Special Teams unit" (for lack of a better phrase), as evidenced by the fact that the NFL's official Special Teams Player Of The Week has frequently included players who scored TDs on fake punts or field goals.
Click to expand...
I don't necessarily disagree with you but one issue is that you still need to define "special teams play" somehow, and it seems you're just proposing defining whether or not something is a "special teams play" by the pre-snap formation as opposed to the outcome of the play, which probably isn't something most fantasy providers currently pass through their stat feed (i.e. I don't think I can log into my site right now as commissioner and set different scoring for "TDs thrown from a play that started in a punt formation").  Not saying that isn't something the industry could evolve to include but I don't think it comes out of the box right now. 

But if that's how we decide to define plays, why stop there?  If a fake punt play should still credit points to the punting unit, should a play-action pass give points to the RB?  Not exactly apples to apples but you get the point - we award fantasy points based on the result at the end of a play, not based on the apparent intention at the beginning of the play.  A fake punt that leads to a passing TD is scored as a passing TD, just like a fake rush that leads to a passing TD is scored as a passing TD.  :shrug:  

 
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