John 14:6
Jesus is Lord!
He better stay at TE! Much more valuable there...
I'd be interested to see how he compares to other TEs and WRs in this regard...
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TE Jimmy Graham, CHI (1 Viewer)
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ghostguy123
Footballguy
If graham isn't an uber stud then who the Hell is?
fridayfrenzy
Footballguy
With the stats coming out of him lining up at receiver 67% of the time (I am assuming this means in the slot or out wide) and that Jimmy Graham's camp will fight to have him be franchise tagged as a WR, that his official position could very well change this offseason.
I am not sure what Rotoworld uses as their basis of a TE vs WR, but the information coming out is not positive for Jimmy Graham maintaining his TE position.
I fully realize that the TE position has changed from it's traditional role, but it seems that the only thing holding Graham back from being called a WR is that he has a TE body.
I am not sure what Rotoworld uses as their basis of a TE vs WR, but the information coming out is not positive for Jimmy Graham maintaining his TE position.
I fully realize that the TE position has changed from it's traditional role, but it seems that the only thing holding Graham back from being called a WR is that he has a TE body.
Koya
Footballguy
This past year?
Manning. Charles. Gordon.
Am I missing anyone?
That's why I put "uber" - and we can't discount week six. And I love the guy. Had him last three years hp
SaintsInDome2006
Footballguy
Didn't Jared Cook settle this?
Or rather he was on the edge of settling this when the Titans bailed to avoid the WR designation and sent him to the Rams who paid him.
Jimmy will get his WR money in the end.
If that the logic, Graham spent 35% of offensive snaps on the sideline this season. Maybe they should pay him like a backup.
ghostguy123
Footballguy
Considering position and points, he was right with those guys. He was the Manning/Charles/Gordon of the TE position. Actually much more valuable at TE than Gordon was at WR.
You dont have to discount anything. His total points speak for themselves.
ghostguy123
Footballguy
Kinda wondering why there isn't some exact percentage where a guy needs to line up to have his position defined.
Obviously Graham has a case here. Doesnt mean I think he will get the WR label, but anyone with any sense would at least try for it if they were him.
However, lining up at TE 1/3 of the time is 1/3 of the time more than WRs do. Who knows.
Obviously Graham has a case here. Doesnt mean I think he will get the WR label, but anyone with any sense would at least try for it if they were him.
However, lining up at TE 1/3 of the time is 1/3 of the time more than WRs do. Who knows.
zamboni
Footballguy
John 14:6
Jesus is Lord!
Gordon had a few stinkers in weeks 4, 7, and 9. Not as bad as Graham's worst games, but it happens to most WRs/TEs.
Ghost Rider
Footballguy
Graham is quite obviously an uber stud. He outscored every other TE by a ton this year and:
-Scored in 11 of his 16 games.
-had 6 100-yard games (which is awesome for a TE).
-had 10 games with 5+ catches.
-scored double digit points in PPR in 14 of his 16 games.
-scored 20+ points in PPR in 7 of his 16 games.
If that isn't an uber stud, I don't know what is.
-Scored in 11 of his 16 games.
-had 6 100-yard games (which is awesome for a TE).
-had 10 games with 5+ catches.
-scored double digit points in PPR in 14 of his 16 games.
-scored 20+ points in PPR in 7 of his 16 games.
If that isn't an uber stud, I don't know what is.
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Doug B
Footballguy
This might just be a homer Lou-Holtzin' ... but something that concerns me a lot is that the book seems to be out on how to stop Jimmy Graham -- hold one of his hands/arms while the ball is on its downward trajectory. Refs won't call it, Graham (apparently) can't fight through it. Unless something changes about (a) either Graham's ball-in-air technique against "holding DBs" or (b) the way the refs call defensive PI, it seems that Graham's best years might now be behind him.
KellysHeroes
Footballguy
he'll get paid, this is a non-issue
Breesisdaman
Footballguy
Graham is going to have to put on upper body weight this off season. Simple as that. He has to break some of those holds and fight through to the ball. If he gets paid Top WR money I am going to be pissed. He is a very good TE and should be paid at or near what Gronk's deal was. Top TE money.Doug B said:
Gronkowski- 8 year, $55 million, $13 million guaranteed
Megatron- 8 year, $150.5 million, $60 million guaranteed
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MoveToSkypager
Footballguy
SaintsInDome2006
Footballguy
Something to consider is that the league and other franchises and owners might put some pressure on the Saints to create precedent here; if the Saints pay him like a WR others will have to do the same if they have these TE hybrids on their roster now or later.
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ghostguy123
Footballguy
I concur. Bad job outta me for re-quoting it.
I think if Graham, does get paid as a WR for the franchise tag, he should stay at TE for fantasy. People clearly made the investment based on him being a TE. He isnt worth nearly as much as a WR.
It's not like a switch from RB to QB or something. If I am the Saints, every chance I get I would line him up at TE. Up 31-10?? TE TE TE TE TE TE TE TE TE TE TE game over
SaintsInDome2006
Footballguy
The holding was really bad the 2nd half of the season. Not sure why that was allowed so much? the man could not get a call, especially against the Pats and Seahawks.
lardonastick
Footballguy
This is the only argument necessary, imo, to keep him classified as a TE. WR's line up at TE 0% of the time; TE's line up at TE > 0% of the time.
He is definitely the top TE. I don't know if I would go as early on him next year. As pointed out, he definitely got locked down a bit more as the season went on. He played 17 games total this season ignoring the NE game where he got hurt. There is a big difference between games 1-7 and games 8-17.
Games 1-7:
TDs: 10 (1.4 per)
Games with 5+ catches: 5 (71%)
Games with 9+ catches: 4 (57%)
Games with 100+ yards: 5 (71%)
Games 8-17:
TDs: 6 (0.6 per)
Games with 5+ catches: 6 (60%)
Games with 9+ catches: 0 (0% highest receptions was 6)
Games with 100+ yards: 1 (10% 1 game of 100, next closest was 73)
Not saying he wasn't a good TE, especially with the TDs, but without those he really wasn't special in the last 10 games. In the first 7, he was special like no one else in fantasy was as valuable.
Again, great TE, but it would really concern me that in his last 10 games, he had 1 game of 100 yards with 73 yards as his next best and never had more than 6 receptions. The TDs were there, but 6 in 10 games is basically 10 TDs for the year and that isn't a PPR 1st round pick.
I agree with this. An argument could be made that 3rd down RBs like Sproles and Vereen line up a lot as WRs, but even if they were only lined up as RB 30% of the time, there are no WRs (even Harvin or Patterson) that line up as RBs 30% of the time. All that Graham lining up at TE 30% of the time means is that he isn't a great blocker and/or they feel him standing up gives him a better chance to separate and get out on a pattern.
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Concept Coop
Footballguy
I have no idea how you came to that conclusion. What, exactly, has changed? Not every team has a Talib or Sherman to throw at him. He's fine.
Gronk didn't sign an 8-year extension. He signed a 6-year extension when he still had two years remaining on his rookie contract. The Patriots retained his rights for 8 more seasons after his contract was signed, but essentially the extension added 6 years at the cost of an extra $55 million, or about $9m APY.
Megatron and Fitz have huge outlier contracts at their position, and aren't really considered when discussing what the market is at the position. Both players have an APY (average per year) of over $16 million. No one else in the league has an APY within even 20% of that. Basically, top WRs are looking at something more in the Mike Wallace, Percy Harvin, Vincent Jackson range- 5 years, ~$60m dollars, and maybe $25m guaranteed. Good for an APY of about $12m.
Rob Gronkowski signed his extension at a discount because he still had two years remaining on his rookie contract. Basically, he gave them a discount on the back end in order to stake an early claim to $8m worth of signing bonus, rather than playing out the remaining two years of his deal and hoping for the best. As Aaron Hernandez demonstrated, sometimes extending early is a very, vary smart move. Of course, extending early comes at a cost, and you get a smaller total contract as a result. Still, had Gronk not done it, he'd be negotiating a new contract right now, and his leverage would be shot with all of his recent injuries. So it worked out for him.
Jimmy Graham didn't take the safe path with New Orleans. He played out his entire rookie contract, risked injury, and made it to free agency in one piece. As a result, even if he were going to make "TE money", he'd command a sizeable upgrade over Gronkowski's contract with its early-extension discount. How much of an upgrade? I'd say something in the $12m APY range certainly seems reasonable for Graham- basically, "top WR money (non-Fitzgerald/Calvin edition)". So whether the Saints consider Graham to be a WR, or a TE, or a Punter, it doesn't make much difference- either way, Graham's probably looking at a 5-year, $60m, $25m guaranteed kind of deal. Probably a bit more since he's better than Mike Wallace and every new stud to hit the open market always wants to set the new top of the market.
The WR/TE designation is really only important for franchise tag purposes. In terms of long-term contract negotiations, Graham's going to get what he's going to get, and it'll probably work out to #1 TE / top-5 WR money regardless of how the Saints view him.
MoveToSkypager
Footballguy
This will get ugly. Prediction is that the Saints will cave. They have to.
Long Ball Larry
Footballguy
I understand his point but it seems weird that he could file a grievance. Is there any description anywhere of how position designations are determined when it comes to the franchise tag? i guess that there must be, but I would think that it is pretty cut and dried.
Long Ball Larry
Footballguy
This article says "Per the collective bargaining agreement, a player is whichever position he played the most snaps at in the prior year."
http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1960713-how-the-nfl-franchise-tag-process-works
So I don't understand the grievance, unless they are somehow going to try to re-define what the position means. And I'm not sure that this would be the right venue.
http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1960713-how-the-nfl-franchise-tag-process-works
So I don't understand the grievance, unless they are somehow going to try to re-define what the position means. And I'm not sure that this would be the right venue.
MoveToSkypager
Footballguy
Didn't Graham take the majority of his snaps standing up last season? I thought I read most of his snaps were as a WR, not as a 3 point stance TE.
False Start
Footballguy
They could solve all this by giving the leagues best TE the money he deserves. This goes to show how teams just do not treat players right.
KellysHeroes
Footballguy
their going to pay him, they just more time to meet in the middle ground. Brees got franchised too and then signed later that off-season
grateful zed
Footballguy
UBER !!!
johnadams
Footballguy
I don't know what NO cap situation was when the resigned Brees, but its a bit difficult right now. They've already made a bunch of moves just to get even. The whole world knows PT is gone and I expect Lance Moore to get cut as well, which will give them $6mil in cap space. They might be able to free up some more money, but just about anyone who gets cut now will have to be replaced as well. I'm not a cap expert, but on back of the napkin figure, the might be able to free up about 3-4mil more. This will leave them about 10mil for draft picks and FAs, including Graham. At WR money, it's hard to see NO finding enough to sign Graham let alone Graham and picks. The WR tag is $11.5mil vs. 6.7mil for TEs, which, for a team that is mightily struggling with the cap, a huge figure. I suspect Graham wants to be able to negotiate a contract on the open market where he'd likely get in the range of the top WRs, not TEs. I don't see him leaving 2mil per year on the table to meet in the middle ground. I think if NO had the cap money, this would be posturing and they'd get a deal done. But I don't think it's going to be that easy given where NO is right now.
False Start
Footballguy
Give him Gronks 6 yr/54 mil salary or around it and call it a day, jeez. The Saints need to stop being shady with someone they would like to resign and the city loves. I do not care about negotiations and its process, they should keep respect for a star at all times in this process. Asking him to take 7 million is insulting according to what Gronk gets. I would love 7 mil a year though for me though.
Jimmy Graham is scheduled to make $7.035 million in 2014 under the terms of the tight end franchise tag.
That number could jump to $12.312 million if Graham wins his likely forthcoming appeal to be considered a wide receiver. Both sides could avoid any confrontation by hashing out a new long-term deal. The other offensive numbers were also announced. Quarterbacks will cost $16.912 million, running backs $9.54, and offensive lineman $11.654.
Jimmy Graham is scheduled to make $7.035 million in 2014 under the terms of the tight end franchise tag.
That number could jump to $12.312 million if Graham wins his likely forthcoming appeal to be considered a wide receiver. Both sides could avoid any confrontation by hashing out a new long-term deal. The other offensive numbers were also announced. Quarterbacks will cost $16.912 million, running backs $9.54, and offensive lineman $11.654.
False Start
Footballguy
All 31 other teams would pay him that. Saints are showing monstrous amounts of disrespect and I hope Jimmy lets them know that with his negotiations. If I were him I wouldn't even negotiate a long term deal. I would say here is what I want and not return calls until he gets it. Show up do his job as great as always, then sign somewhere else, next year.
Dinsy Ejotuz
Footballguy
Has the TE/WR designation ever actually been ruled on before? I know the Titans let Cook walk when he made it clear he was going to fight the TE franchise. Would be an important ruling if it he's deemed a WR.
