What's new
Fantasy Football - Footballguys Forums

This is a sample guest message. Register a free account today to become a member! Once signed in, you'll be able to participate on this site by adding your own topics and posts, as well as connect with other members through your own private inbox!

TE Jimmy Graham, CHI (1 Viewer)

Someone else should make an offer and many teams will. He is worth two first for a good team you ask me. New England could make an offer and afford the two future firsts.

Saints used the non-exclusive franchise tag on Jimmy Graham.
Under the terms of the non-exclusive tag, other teams will be allowed to negotiate with Graham. If Graham and another team come to terms, the Saints will have the option to match the deal. If the Saints do not wish to match the deal, Graham's new team will send New Orleans two first-round picks as compensation. That scenario is unlikely to unfold, and this is likely just one of a series of twists and turns to come in the Graham contract saga.
 
Someone else should make an offer and many teams will. He is worth two first for a good team you ask me. New England could make an offer and afford the two future firsts.

Saints used the non-exclusive franchise tag on Jimmy Graham.
Under the terms of the non-exclusive tag, other teams will be allowed to negotiate with Graham. If Graham and another team come to terms, the Saints will have the option to match the deal. If the Saints do not wish to match the deal, Graham's new team will send New Orleans two first-round picks as compensation. That scenario is unlikely to unfold, and this is likely just one of a series of twists and turns to come in the Graham contract saga.
It's a good move, it keeps Graham's camp happy and allows him to set a market.

 
Someone else should make an offer and many teams will. He is worth two first for a good team you ask me. New England could make an offer and afford the two future firsts.

Saints used the non-exclusive franchise tag on Jimmy Graham.

Under the terms of the non-exclusive tag, other teams will be allowed to negotiate with Graham. If Graham and another team come to terms, the Saints will have the option to match the deal. If the Saints do not wish to match the deal, Graham's new team will send New Orleans two first-round picks as compensation. That scenario is unlikely to unfold, and this is likely just one of a series of twists and turns to come in the Graham contract saga.
It's a good move, it keeps Graham's camp happy and allows him to set a market.
And allows for plenty of fantasy fueled ridiculous scenarios to be thrown out there.

 
Someone else should make an offer and many teams will. He is worth two first for a good team you ask me. New England could make an offer and afford the two future firsts.

Saints used the non-exclusive franchise tag on Jimmy Graham.

Under the terms of the non-exclusive tag, other teams will be allowed to negotiate with Graham. If Graham and another team come to terms, the Saints will have the option to match the deal. If the Saints do not wish to match the deal, Graham's new team will send New Orleans two first-round picks as compensation. That scenario is unlikely to unfold, and this is likely just one of a series of twists and turns to come in the Graham contract saga.
It's a good move, it keeps Graham's camp happy and allows him to set a market.
And allows for plenty of fantasy fueled ridiculous scenarios to be thrown out there.
But is the NE scenario that crazy? They would part with the 29th overall this year and a pick that is likely in the 20s next year, and they would need to clear some cap space. They are currently $12 mill under the cap. The dead money on Hernandez and the huge cap hit of Brady for 2014 is squeezing them up against the cap. If they can afford Graham's salary I don't see why they should not do it unless they're planning on starting their rebuild.

 
Someone else should make an offer and many teams will. He is worth two first for a good team you ask me. New England could make an offer and afford the two future firsts.

Saints used the non-exclusive franchise tag on Jimmy Graham.

Under the terms of the non-exclusive tag, other teams will be allowed to negotiate with Graham. If Graham and another team come to terms, the Saints will have the option to match the deal. If the Saints do not wish to match the deal, Graham's new team will send New Orleans two first-round picks as compensation. That scenario is unlikely to unfold, and this is likely just one of a series of twists and turns to come in the Graham contract saga.
It's a good move, it keeps Graham's camp happy and allows him to set a market.
And allows for plenty of fantasy fueled ridiculous scenarios to be thrown out there.
But is the NE scenario that crazy? They would part with the 29th overall this year and a pick that is likely in the 20s next year, and they would need to clear some cap space. They are currently $12 mill under the cap. The dead money on Hernandez and the huge cap hit of Brady for 2014 is squeezing them up against the cap. If they can afford Graham's salary I don't see why they should not do it unless they're planning on starting their rebuild.
I never imagined a scenario where I thought this was even possible, but I think a contract bigger than Gronks and two first round picks is well worth Graham.

 
But then again I would assume that the Saints would match the bid. I struggle to see that they would let him go. However, if you are NE and the alternative outcomes are that you either get Graham or you push up his salary by 5-6 million...there really isn't a downside to making such a move apart from less cap flexibility while making this move. I'm no salary cap expert but it looks to me like they should try and bring down Wilfork's cap number who has an 11.6 mill hit with only 3.6 guaranteed entering his last season.

 
I agree the saints will likely match any offers. If he gets any offers that is. But with a player of his caliber I do think someone will kick the tires. Saints should just pay the man.

 
I agree the saints will likely match any offers. If he gets any offers that is. But with a player of his caliber I do think someone will kick the tires. Saints should just pay the man.
Saints are not going to match if a team offers 12 mil a year, if they would, they wouldn't be doing this and they would just pay the man. They are taking a gamble themselves in doing this in losing and elite difference maker for two lottery tickets. Not worth it. I think 2-3 teams may make an offer.

 
GordonGekko said:
But then again I would assume that the Saints would match the bid. I struggle to see that they would let him go.
If a team offered two first rounders, even late ones, for Jimmy Graham, the Saints would let him go and laugh themselves all the way to the bank. They'd draft Jace Amaro late with one of those first rounders and have a cost controlled rookie with upside for four years. If they can get 65 percent of the production for 1/50th of the cost, they'd be rubbing themselves all over in glee.

The average NFL career is about 6 years when you remove the yearly fringe end of the roster guys struggling every year to make the 53. Graham has played four seasons and entering his 5th year. He's 27 years old. Anyone who would sign Graham would be giving him a contract that essentially guarantees the first three years of the deal, at least, by virtue of the size of the signing bonus. Any team trading for Graham under the franchise tag would be sacrificing two first rounders, that's 8 years plus two options years of cost controlled service time for players hopefully outperforming those contracts and entering their peak plus a massive chunk of their cap, for a player with chronic ankle problems and where the player will likely enter his decline phase within Year 1 of that massive deal.

Sure Graham splits out wide a lot, but he's not a pure WR. Even if you considered him a WR, he would still be entering his decline phase about the start of Year 2 of that contract, if you split the difference.

Jimmy Sexton of CAA wants about 12 million a year. The Saints and Loomis are offering about 8-9, which is about Jason Witten money.

The Saints pragmatically are looking at what would be essentially a three year deal. Sexton is looking for what would be likely a five year deal.

IMHO, the Saints best play is to split the difference between WR and TE ( both owners and NFLPA will not be happy about that) and sign Graham to a one year deal with a promise not to franchise him next year and then let him walk.

Great weapon, but consider how often he's dinged up. Don't just factor in the games he was out, but also the games where he was ineffective because he was just a limping decoy. I'm not a huge fan of thinking that ankle will do anything but get worse over time.

Yes, pure WRs make more, but also pure WRs statistically are the better investment ( if you are talking about the 'right' WR) that don't tend to decline as quickly as TEs.
I think the FF community is getting a bit outrageous with players' declining age. RBs are the one position who definitely seem to decline when they hit a certain age (30). WRs and pass-catching TEs have proven to remain elite well into their mid-30s. Athletes in all sports are typically in their primes between the ages of 27-32. But you're going to claim that Jimmy Graham will be in the declining phase right as he's turning 29? That's an exaggerated timeline if you ask me. I will admit that TEs who block a lot can slow down earlier, but I don't think Jimmy Graham fits that mold. Gronk? Yes, he definitely does.

My point: Jimmy Graham won't be in decline phase beginning with the 2015 season. I'd bet he has 4-6 remaining years of elite production at the very least.

 
GordonGekko said:
^

Bill Walsh - Better to let a player go a year too early rather than a year too late

This was a concept Walsh pushed BEFORE the hard cap/free agency era. Moreso, it was a concept developed before the newer CBA with shorter contracts that prizes the valuation of draft picks and the reality of teams embracing statistical analysis.

If the Saints thought Graham had a true 4-6 years of elite production left in him, they would have figured out a contract right now. This is more than just the valuation of the WR position versus the TE position for the owners and union to haggle over.

Jimmy Sexton wants a true 5 year deal for the same reason the Saints don't want to give one. Why wouldn't Sexton take a large true three year deal, and let Graham reap one more large foray into free agency when the move TE market resets again?

Talk to Patriots fans, Ravens fans, Eagles fans, Steeler fans, the teams that had some streak of sustained success in the league had to make some very unpopular cuts over time. In the short run, those moves took some PR backlash and fans didn't love them, but over the long haul, most of those hard cuts were needed to sustain the team.
WHy would Graham settle for a contract when he is the best at his position and still young enough to EASILY have 5-6 great years left, and it's only March 2nd??

That would be like some of the bad dynasty owners out there who take pennies on the dollar for a player in March because "it was the best I could get".

 
Well then I guess Graham should just take whatever they offer, geeze, how crazy of him not to cave and take whatever on March 2nd.

His options are to take his time with the team and work out a deal. Did I mention yet that it is March 2nd?

And the last thing the Saints want is for him to hold out till week 10 then lose him after this year. They WANT him. Every team wants him. They will take some time to find the middle ground of his value to the team and risk assessment from the Graham camp knowing that comething catastrophic can happen during the course of the year playing under the franchise tag, not to mention any of the other off the field things that can happen to anyone.

Oh, and I am not a Saints homer. I am not even a Saints fan.

one more thing...........date check.......it's March 2nd

 
Last edited by a moderator:
GordonGekko said:
But then again I would assume that the Saints would match the bid. I struggle to see that they would let him go.
If a team offered two first rounders, even late ones, for Jimmy Graham, the Saints would let him go and laugh themselves all the way to the bank. They'd draft Jace Amaro late with one of those first rounders and have a cost controlled rookie with upside for four years. If they can get 65 percent of the production for 1/50th of the cost, they'd be rubbing themselves all over in glee.

The average NFL career is about 6 years when you remove the yearly fringe end of the roster guys struggling every year to make the 53. Graham has played four seasons and entering his 5th year. He's 27 years old. Anyone who would sign Graham would be giving him a contract that essentially guarantees the first three years of the deal, at least, by virtue of the size of the signing bonus. Any team trading for Graham under the franchise tag would be sacrificing two first rounders, that's 8 years plus two options years of cost controlled service time for players hopefully outperforming those contracts and entering their peak plus a massive chunk of their cap, for a player with chronic ankle problems and where the player will likely enter his decline phase within Year 1 of that massive deal.

Sure Graham splits out wide a lot, but he's not a pure WR. Even if you considered him a WR, he would still be entering his decline phase about the start of Year 2 of that contract, if you split the difference.

Jimmy Sexton of CAA wants about 12 million a year. The Saints and Loomis are offering about 8-9, which is about Jason Witten money.

The Saints pragmatically are looking at what would be essentially a three year deal. Sexton is looking for what would be likely a five year deal.

IMHO, the Saints best play is to split the difference between WR and TE ( both owners and NFLPA will not be happy about that) and sign Graham to a one year deal with a promise not to franchise him next year and then let him walk.

Great weapon, but consider how often he's dinged up. Don't just factor in the games he was out, but also the games where he was ineffective because he was just a limping decoy. I'm not a huge fan of thinking that ankle will do anything but get worse over time.

Yes, pure WRs make more, but also pure WRs statistically are the better investment ( if you are talking about the 'right' WR) that don't tend to decline as quickly as TEs.
You're making some very broad statements in this post. First of all this "limping decoy" has missed only 1 regular season game and 1 playoff game due to injury in his four years in the NFL and he scored 16 TDs this past season. Second, with Gonzalez and Gates fresh in mind it seems a bit dramatic to talk about a 27 year old TE, who is one of the most athletic TEs to enter the NFL ever, as entering his "decline phase". He's almost three years younger than Vernon Davis.

It seems like you're suggesting fantasy football moves for real life football teams. Bad fantasy football moves. Both the Saints and the Patriots have elite QBs who are getting close to the end of their careers. Consequently the window for these teams to win the Super Bowl with their current squad is closing in a few seasons and it makes a lot of sense to make one-man-away-from-contention moves like this.

 
Five years from now Graham will be 32. The list of guys who've been better than average at that age at TE is very short. And only Shannon Sharpe and Tony Gonzalez have put up multiple decent/good years at 32+. IMO no one's going to give Graham a five year contract that doesn't allow for an easy out after the 3rd year.

 
Five years from now Graham will be 32. The list of guys who've been better than average at that age at TE is very short. And only Shannon Sharpe and Tony Gonzalez have put up multiple decent/good years at 32+. IMO no one's going to give Graham a five year contract that doesn't allow for an easy out after the 3rd year.
I will bet you the Saints do.

I think they will be perfectly content to sign Graham to a 5 year deal even if he only performs up to his usual for 4 of those years.

Do you realize if they let him walk they won't be anywhere near as good on offense? Just in case you weren't awake. What you are saying by franchising them losing him means after this year they have what at WR and TE?? Stills and...............................?

I would be completely shocked if he doesnt land a nice 5 year deal that does NOT have an easy out after year 3.

 
GordonGekko said:
I will bet you the Saints do.

I think they will be perfectly content to sign Graham to a 5 year deal even if he only performs up to his usual for 4 of those years.

Do you realize if they let him walk they won't be anywhere near as good on offense? Just in case you weren't awake. What you are saying by franchising them losing him means after this year they have what at WR and TE?? Stills and...............................?

I would be completely shocked if he doesnt land a nice 5 year deal that does NOT have an easy out after year 3.
The NFL Franchise Tag, as it's used now in current times, is not the first shot in a contract fight, it's usually employed as a last effort measure to try to assert a leverage point by the player's franchise.
Didnt need to read much past this.

The tag is used when they simply havent come to a contract agreement yet.

The tag, to me, is absolutely NOT some last ditch effort. They have a rather large contract to discuss. They havent agreed on anything yet, hence, he was tagged.

These situations tend to get resolved, minus an idiot like vincent jackson

 
I don't know why you keep referencing that.

Had they come to a long term contract agreement they would not have franchised him. They didn't. Not surprising since it is March 3rd and graham wants to be paid like a top WR.

When the player wants what the team thinks is too much money prior to the deadline to franchise the guy, the player gets franchised, and now they have several months to figure out a long term deal.

If the Saints have any intention of keeping him past this year (which is pretty obvious that they do), they aren't going to lowball him and try and screw him over. If they do, he is as good as gone, which is just horrible for the Saints.

They are keeping him from being an unrestricted free agent. Sure, the team gains SOME leverage by franchising, but at most a couple million dollars worth of leverage since they are going to try and sign him long term. Cause if they don't, they lose him.

 
GordonGekko said:
There was talk of Vernon Davis. Davis reupped in 2010 with 23 million guaranteed. His 2014 salary is about 5 million. His upfront guaranteed money has all but been paid out. He's a decent clip under the TE current franchise tag mark. It is more cost effective for the 49ers to keep Davis for 2014 than to cut him. ( Please do no compare Davis and Graham any longer. Davis entered the draft after his junior year. Graham played 1 year of football during his 5th year of college as a graduate student. Davis entered the NFL younger and was a 1st round draft choice, his situation and the circumstances of his reup are entirely different than Graham's) This kind of contract is the same reason Knowshown Moreno was still with the Broncos despite having some very early subpar years. The major cap hit of his contract was front loaded, thus he was an inexpensive player to hold onto in his back years. Same reason the Patriots held onto Maroney a little longer than many fans would have liked.
Haha. "Please do not compare Davis and Graham any longer". Listen, I'm not sure what is in your kool-aid, but I brought up Davis in the context of his age and you writing the obituary of a player that is almost three years younger than Davis, and you counter by rambling on about Davis' contract. That is beside the point. I was comparing their age in the context of Davis still being an explosive and effective player who had 15 TDs himself this past season. You continue by highlighting that Davis played more in college and that he entered the league at a younger age than Graham...?! Are you arguing against yourself now? Yes, Davis has quite much more mileage since he has played football at a high level for 11 seasons. Graham has only played 5 seasons. Considering that Davis is still a highly effective player, should we then assume that Graham has at least six good seasons left in him? Or what was your point in bringing up Davis' longer experience at the collegiate and professional level?

Nothing can be taken for granted in the NFL. We might have seen the last season where Graham puts up numbers like that. Anything can happen. But let's be realistic. He was on the injury report weeks 8-12 last season. In those five games he had five touchdowns and two games over 100 yards. It hardly sounds to me like a player at the end of the road who is stumbling around like a decoy. Quite frankly those statements of yours were ridiculous and I am sure you agree now that you have had a chance to reflect on it. I'm pretty sure that even when he at some point loses the ability to put up 100 yard games, he will still be highly effective in the red zone. Graham is a physical freak. His 3 cone drill time was 0.04 slower than Dri Archer ran this year(!). Players like that don't lose their athleticism and effectiveness at age 27-28.

And no, I am not a Saints fan. In fact they are probably in the bottom three when it comes to which teams I prefer. And I don't even like Graham. But I can't argue with his effectiveness. At times it seems like cheating when Brees and Graham get in a groove.

 
If He stays under the TE franchise tag, I would franchise for 3 years and then let him go. I don't see any TE's out there that will raise the value of the tag anytime soon, so even the 20% increase each year would be more than worth it.

 
If He stays under the TE franchise tag, I would franchise for 3 years and then let him go. I don't see any TE's out there that will raise the value of the tag anytime soon, so even the 20% increase each year would be more than worth it.
I think the human aspect makes that solution less than ideal. They need to seek a peaceful solution that will give closure and allow everyone to get back to work - not butt heads every offseason.

 
If He stays under the TE franchise tag, I would franchise for 3 years and then let him go. I don't see any TE's out there that will raise the value of the tag anytime soon, so even the 20% increase each year would be more than worth it.
I think the human aspect makes that solution less than ideal. They need to seek a peaceful solution that will give closure and allow everyone to get back to work - not butt heads every offseason.
Agreed. It's hard to envision his on field product in 2017 being at an elite level after 2-3 years of being franchised.

 
Excerpt from Peter King's MMQB:

I think there’s no way I’m giving up two first-round picks and $12 million a year for a tight end, particularly one I’m not sure is going to be great consistently against physical defenses. That’s not a knock on Jimmy Graham. But two ones and 9% of your cap? Nope. Really good player. Not worth that.
 
Business season primer: Focus on benchmark deals, Graham situation

Pat Kirwan

Excerpt:

The Jimmy Graham situationA couple of weeks back, I said the NFL needs close to 20 franchise tag designations and Jimmy Graham is a perfect example because he is not a traditional tight end. There is no rule stating a tight end must line up next to a tackle to be a tight end. The traditional alignment of a tight end went out the window when Shannon Sharpe was causing fits in the 1990s, followed by Tony Gonzalez.

What you ask a tight end like Graham to do from a slot or wide position can be very different from a wide receiver, though he'll want to be paid like one. Now, since there is no franchise tag that fits what Graham does on the field, he'll probably file a grievance over his tag value unless the Saints get a deal done soon in the neighborhood of $9 million a year.

The NFL could have prevented this issue reaching this point had it anticipated the tag challenges. It will not stop with tight ends, and they should have seen this issue coming when Terrell Suggs challenged the system in 2008.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Excerpt from Peter King's MMQB:

I think there’s no way I’m giving up two first-round picks and $12 million a year for a tight end, particularly one I’m not sure is going to be great consistently against physical defenses. That’s not a knock on Jimmy Graham. But two ones and 9% of your cap? Nope. Really good player. Not worth that.
Opinions are divided.

@adamschefter on twitter earlier today:

"If I'm the Seattle Seahawks or Green Bay Packers, I'm willing to sign TE Jimmy Graham to an offer sheet and to give up two 1's to get him."

 
Now Jimmy Graham is too old? He has been in the league four years and has been elite in three as far TEs are concerned and and as far as WRs are concerned he is has been elite in two of them and is coming off a 86/1215/16 season. If that doesn't command 12 mil and 2 firsts what does? Gronk is three years younger has been in the league just as long as is more broke down then Jimmy will ever be.

Give me Graham at roughly 10.5 Mill for 5 years with 25 guaranteed and two firsts I will take that every day. He is a difference maker and one you don't get a chance to get with this type of elite talent often. You add that to Rodgers in GB or Brady in New England even Wilson in Seattle. How can you not make that investment with pretty elite teams? They can build from the 2nd round on in drafts. People make draft pick trades of more then that for a less proven player coming out of college. The youth is more important mentality must stop.

 
Last edited by a moderator:
You dont sign a 30 year old to a huge 5-6 year deal.

A 27 year old elite non RB?? yes

I can't see more than 1% chance the Saints dont get a 4-6 year deal done

 
wdcrob said:
Five years from now Graham will be 32. The list of guys who've been better than average at that age at TE is very short. And only Shannon Sharpe and Tony Gonzalez have put up multiple decent/good years at 32+. IMO no one's going to give Graham a five year contract that doesn't allow for an easy out after the 3rd year.
Overthecap.com did a nice write up today which leads to some of those same conclusions you are alluding. I don't consider it gospel and have a hard time believing Grahams stats would decline on their projected basis but I still thought it was a good writeup: http://overthecap.com/saints-side-jimmy-graham-extension-debate/

 
Well, I see both sides of it. But I can certainly see a team like a NE or Seattle giving it consideration. As others have pointed out, they have a very late 1st this year and will again next year. Graham is still young, and very much

in his prime. The money seems to be the biggest issue, but the cap is growing to around $140 mil next year and $150 mil the following year, so a new contract for Graham could escalate each year to match that. That, and the

"a team isn't going to cough up two first rounders". RGIII, anyone? Yes, I realize we're talking two different positions, but if your team is missing only one or two pieces.... I mean hell, this is what the Raiders got for Jon Gruden, a COACH!

1st round/21st overall, 2002

2nd round/53rd overall, 2002

1st round/32nd overall, 2003

2nd round/33rd overall, 2004

 
If they sign Graham to a 6 year deal and he plays great for 4 years then falls off the map, and they cut him and eat some cap for two years after that, I am willing to bet the Saints we be just fine with it

 
Rotoworld:

Jimmy Graham was officially franchise tagged as a tight end.
Graham will appeal that he should be tagged as a wide receiver. With the tight end tag $7.035 million and the receiver tag $12.312 million, Graham has $5.3 million reasons to appeal.

Source: Ian Rapoport on Twitter
 
"a team isn't going to cough up two first rounders". RGIII, anyone? Yes, I realize we're talking two different positions, but if your team is missing only one or two pieces.... I mean hell, this is what the Raiders got for Jon Gruden, a COACH!
I got no comment for the Gruden transaction but there is a big difference between the RG3 deal and any potential Graham deal. If we are talking about giving up two #1's for Graham you'd have to do that and then pay him top dollar at his position, probably the top dollar. In RG3's case it's a little different because while he also cost two #1's he got rookie slotted which means he cost a fraction of what you typically have to pay franchise QB's.

That's why I tend to side with Peter King, as much as I hate siding with him. First round picks are a chance to lock in cheap high end labor. Losing the chance to lock in two cheap high end talents and also pay top dollar to a TE is a huge swing to a teams cap. The only way it would make any sense to me really is a team that has a back end first round pick this year, feels good about it being a back end first round pick next season, has a TE or playmaker need and the cap room to not only pull it off but do so comfortably. Turns out most of the teams with a ton of cap space have high picks this year so that makes it more challenging.

I don't really see Graham leaving the Saints, in fact I've never really even considered it as remotely being possible it' just a matter of him getting franchised out or a long term deal getting made.

I'm taking a guess that the Saints are handling this exactly as they should. Franchise him while they work on a deal and hold the TE franchise pay as leverage to try and meet a common ground on a long term deal. Graham would run considerable risk if he rejects a long term contract that pays him substantially more then the TE designation and lost. It's his main leverage right now and if he plays that card and loses there is nothing that would prevent the Saints from franchising him out the next few seasons at a fraction of what they likely are offering him on a long term deal. Which is also why I think we'll see Graham end up accepting a long term deal before the TE/WR battle is appealed.

 
Rotoworld:

Franchise player Jimmy Graham isn't expected to report to the Saints until his contract situation is resolved.
Graham was officially tagged as a tight end Monday. He'll put up a fight that he should be paid as a receiver. The tight end franchise number is $7.035 million, compared to $12.312 million for receivers. This could drag into the summer. Graham will almost certainly skip OTAs if a long-term deal isn't reached and could even stay at home for training camp. The fun is just beginning.

Source: Ian Rapoport on Twitter
 
Odds are the elite wrs and TEs seem to be playing quite well to age 32 and 33. Far more as of late than the elite players who crap out before age 33.

 
GordonGekko said:
Opinions are divided.

@adamschefter on twitter earlier today:

"If I'm the Seattle Seahawks or Green Bay Packers, I'm willing to sign TE Jimmy Graham to an offer sheet and to give up two 1's to get him."
Adam Schefter's own representation? Creative Artist Agency.

Jimmy Graham's agent? Super agent Jimmy Sexton of .... Creative Artist Agency.

Do you think it's a coincidence that Schefter is trying to drum up an artificial market for Graham in the press, which would indirectly benefit the sports agency that negotiates his own contracts and helps get him access to their client list for his insider information?

When Schefter breaks a story about Jay Z and Roc Nation, do you think he's going to spin a positive or negative view of Roc Nation? ( Roc Nation, in partnership with CAA, just represented Robinson Cano of MLB for the largest contract ever for a 2nd baseman) If Roc Nation has an NFL client, do you think Schefter is going to say there's a ton of interest in that free agent or not?

I've said for years, always follow the money. A lot of you guys just jump on the first headline you see without tracing back the complex core of relationships and interests and league politics.

Zach Ertz, 23 years old, was a 2nd round pick for the Eagles in the 2013 NFL Draft. His slotted pay as the 35th pick is a four year deal at about 5.3 million TOTAL. He put up 56/469/4 this past season splitting time with Brent "DFENS" Celek.

People are citing Graham's 90/1200/16 this past season as if it's a lock down point for all future seasons. It's likely not going to be his production going forward. No one is arguing that 2014 Graham can be a monster, but what about his age 31 and 32 years when the amount of dead money associated with his contract makes him prohibitive to cut? ( The Saints are going to need Graham to sign a deal that backloads because they aren't in a great cap position for the next few years, even with the Salary Cap expected to rise, that's dead money that will rot like a millstone during Graham's likely decline phase)

What Mickey Loomis has to consider is can I find a player who makes a fraction of the 12 million a year that Graham is asking for and get back X percentage of his likely production.

If you can get 65 percent of what Graham gives you for about 1/60th of the overall cost, is that 35 percent bump in production worth those tens of millions of dollars locked in for years? Or can you use that money to get other assets in place that will far outweigh the value of that difference?

The GM game is about "resource management" You lose this game, you don't win a championship. Two years ago, I said Maurice Jone Drew would likely cease to be an elite fantasy factor and would likely play out the string in Jacksonville and not be a desirable FA pick up except for some contenders looking for a veteran time share back on a cost controlled short contract. Lots of Jags homers said I was wrong, they said I didn't understand, they said MJD still have a long time left to be elite. But as Charles Barkley says - Father Time is undefeated.

Can Graham be elite for another 5-6 years? Sure, it's possible. Players like Curtis Martin, Jerry Rice, Jackie Slater (maybe Bob Magaw and I are the only ones here who really value the under appreciated Slater), Bruce Matthews, Darrell Green have defied the odds.

But is it likely? The players above are the rare exceptions to the rule.

Bill Walsh - "Of all things that NFL General Managers desire, it's a measure of certainty"

NFL GMs crave certainty, in so much as is ever possible. Graham being elite for the kind of contract he wants, it is possible? Sure. But is it likely? No.

Graham wants to bet on himself, as he should, he should be the kind of player who is confident that he can be elite for another 6 years.

But Mickey Loomis is betting on Father Time, who is far more brutal and consistent.

Do you think I enjoyed watching the 49ers ship out Ronnie Lott and Joe Montana like some old sneakers in the back of a locker? But you have to separate how you feel as a fan from how the NFL actually operates.

For fantasy owners, when it comes to building a winner, no one cares how you feel in relation to how the NFL market forces work in the real world. What you feel doesn't matter. Your fandom means nothing. Which players you admire has an absolute value of zero.

For those of you who fully believe Graham will rock it as an elite player for the next SIX YEARS, I say go on, bet on that with your dynasty teams. You might, in defiance of Father Time, be right. But odds are, you'll be wrong.
I get your point...However at what point does the analytical approach to the cap hinder the inner locker room morale? You have a lower draft pick guy in Graham that has worked to enhance his talent to the point where he us considered elite. And in doing so sets, in many respects, the greatest example for the majority of your locker room. Now he is on the cusp of reward and you tell him to find someone else to pay you, that in our eyes you're not worth the elite pay at your position. What message does that send to the rest of the players that the GM, HC, depend upon to be successful?
 
I can't say I disagree conceptually but what is your planned method to convey it? You say tell them but how so? Locker room leaders? If so the very task you ask of them would undermine their credibility.

 
GordonGekko said:
Opinions are divided.@adamschefter on twitter earlier today:

"If I'm the Seattle Seahawks or Green Bay Packers, I'm willing to sign TE Jimmy Graham to an offer sheet and to give up two 1's to get him."
Adam Schefter's own representation? Creative Artist Agency.

Jimmy Graham's agent? Super agent Jimmy Sexton of .... Creative Artist Agency.

Do you think it's a coincidence that Schefter is trying to drum up an artificial market for Graham in the press, which would indirectly benefit the sports agency that negotiates his own contracts and helps get him access to their client list for his insider information?

When Schefter breaks a story about Jay Z and Roc Nation, do you think he's going to spin a positive or negative view of Roc Nation? ( Roc Nation, in partnership with CAA, just represented Robinson Cano of MLB for the largest contract ever for a 2nd baseman) If Roc Nation has an NFL client, do you think Schefter is going to say there's a ton of interest in that free agent or not?

I've said for years, always follow the money. A lot of you guys just jump on the first headline you see without tracing back the complex core of relationships and interests and league politics.

Zach Ertz, 23 years old, was a 2nd round pick for the Eagles in the 2013 NFL Draft. His slotted pay as the 35th pick is a four year deal at about 5.3 million TOTAL. He put up 56/469/4 this past season splitting time with Brent "DFENS" Celek.

People are citing Graham's 90/1200/16 this past season as if it's a lock down point for all future seasons. It's likely not going to be his production going forward. No one is arguing that 2014 Graham can be a monster, but what about his age 31 and 32 years when the amount of dead money associated with his contract makes him prohibitive to cut? ( The Saints are going to need Graham to sign a deal that backloads because they aren't in a great cap position for the next few years, even with the Salary Cap expected to rise, that's dead money that will rot like a millstone during Graham's likely decline phase)

What Mickey Loomis has to consider is can I find a player who makes a fraction of the 12 million a year that Graham is asking for and get back X percentage of his likely production.

If you can get 65 percent of what Graham gives you for about 1/60th of the overall cost, is that 35 percent bump in production worth those tens of millions of dollars locked in for years? Or can you use that money to get other assets in place that will far outweigh the value of that difference?

The GM game is about "resource management" You lose this game, you don't win a championship. Two years ago, I said Maurice Jone Drew would likely cease to be an elite fantasy factor and would likely play out the string in Jacksonville and not be a desirable FA pick up except for some contenders looking for a veteran time share back on a cost controlled short contract. Lots of Jags homers said I was wrong, they said I didn't understand, they said MJD still have a long time left to be elite. But as Charles Barkley says - Father Time is undefeated.

Can Graham be elite for another 5-6 years? Sure, it's possible. Players like Curtis Martin, Jerry Rice, Jackie Slater (maybe Bob Magaw and I are the only ones here who really value the under appreciated Slater), Bruce Matthews, Darrell Green have defied the odds.

But is it likely? The players above are the rare exceptions to the rule.

Bill Walsh - "Of all things that NFL General Managers desire, it's a measure of certainty"

NFL GMs crave certainty, in so much as is ever possible. Graham being elite for the kind of contract he wants, it is possible? Sure. But is it likely? No.

Graham wants to bet on himself, as he should, he should be the kind of player who is confident that he can be elite for another 6 years.

But Mickey Loomis is betting on Father Time, who is far more brutal and consistent.

Do you think I enjoyed watching the 49ers ship out Ronnie Lott and Joe Montana like some old sneakers in the back of a locker? But you have to separate how you feel as a fan from how the NFL actually operates.

For fantasy owners, when it comes to building a winner, no one cares how you feel in relation to how the NFL market forces work in the real world. What you feel doesn't matter. Your fandom means nothing. Which players you admire has an absolute value of zero.

For those of you who fully believe Graham will rock it as an elite player for the next SIX YEARS, I say go on, bet on that with your dynasty teams. You might, in defiance of Father Time, be right. But odds are, you'll be wrong.
I agree with the first half of your post. But Graham will begin his 6th season (from now) at age 32. Father time does always win but I think it's fairly common to see successful WR/TEs remain near the top into their mid-30s. Hell, Gates was 33 last season and just missed 900 yards and that's AFTER every FFer had given up on him. Age is important per position and each position tiers off at different ages. A general rule I follow: RBs at 30,WR/TE 33-34, QBs 36+. In fact, based on this, I'm targeting Roddy White in some dynasty leagues. After a down year and his age (32), owners are gonna jump ship 2-3 years early on White, imo. In fact White is entering what will be Graham's 6th year (from now, based on age). Both have November birthdays and White will play 1/2 the season at age 32.

So yeah, definitely agree that age matters in NFL and good owner/GMs are considerate of how much top level performance they will get. But a smart GM should recognize what positions plateau at what age. Signing Graham to a 5-6 year contract would be a good move for the Saints.

 
Someone else should make an offer and many teams will. He is worth two first for a good team you ask me. New England could make an offer and afford the two future firsts.

Saints used the non-exclusive franchise tag on Jimmy Graham.
Under the terms of the non-exclusive tag, other teams will be allowed to negotiate with Graham. If Graham and another team come to terms, the Saints will have the option to match the deal. If the Saints do not wish to match the deal, Graham's new team will send New Orleans two first-round picks as compensation. That scenario is unlikely to unfold, and this is likely just one of a series of twists and turns to come in the Graham contract saga.
I'd do cartwheels if Green Bay went after him.

 
I think there are two aspects that make it possible for someone to try and scoop Graham or for the Saints to give him the contract he wants. One of them is the increasing salary cap. It is expected for the cap to go from $123 million in 2013 to breaking $150 million in 2016. Teams that have signed players over the past couple of offseasons have practically been getting players at a discount considering that they were fighting for their share of a much smaller salary cap. It will be very, very interesting to see how teams spend money this offseason. Teams will have money to spend. Well, unless you are the Cowboys. The Saints are also one of the teams with the worst salary cap situations - especially when looking further down the road at their commitments for 2015 and 2016. The other aspect is that there are teams with elite QBs who only have a few seasons left in them and you would expect these teams to act with much more urgency compared to teams like the Seahawks who have a much younger core. The Seahawks are in a position to compete and at the same time make moves for the future. But if teams like the Patriots don't make bold moves to improve their chances of winning short term....they might as well start playing Mallett. I'm exaggerating, but their opportunity is now and settling for the Edelmans, Kenbrell Thompkinses and Mohawaouttolouies are not putting them in the best position to get that title. Who knows...they released Welker even though he was one of the most integral parts of their offense and he wasn't asking for that much, and the Ravens let their entire Super Bowl winning core go without even trying to compete the next year so who knows...the minds of NFL GMs work in mysterious ways.

 
Excerpt from Peter King's On Further Review column:

The fate of Jimmy Graham.

Lots of discussion Monday about what will happen to tight end Jimmy Graham in free agency. It’s an intriguing question. Will someone, probably picking near the end of the first round, surrender first-round picks in 2014 and 2015, plus make Graham, 28, the highest-paid tight end in NFL history (at $12 million or $13 million per year)?

First, I would never do it. Let’s say Seattle—with a tight end need—was interested in Graham. The Seahawks have about $15 million in cap room, which shouldn’t be the big reason why they would either sign Graham or not sign him. Remember the important thing: In one year, three of the top players on the roster—Russell Wilson, Richard Sherman and Earl Thomas—are all eligible to negotiate new deals. Sherman and Thomas would be free agents; Wilson would have a year left on his rookie deal but likely will seek to re-do a contract he has vastly outperformed. The question is not whether Seattle could do the deal for Graham; the question is, with all the big-money deals coming due, whether Seattle GM John Schneider would be smart to sign a player who has hardly been at his best in the postseason, which is where Seattle expects to play for years. (Graham caught one ball for eight yards in his last six playoff quarters of the postseason just past.)

Finally, there is the question of salary management for very good players. Those two first-round picks likely would be key contributors for several years, and Seattle would have them at a team-friendly average of about $1.7 million per year. So you’re not only adding a salary of $12 million per year in Graham; you’re subtracting two top prospects, likely starters, at a favorable salary. Graham would be great, and the Seahawks or Patriots or another team with a crying tight end need would love having him … but the cost is excessive, if you ask me.
 
Excerpt from Peter King's On Further Review column:

The fate of Jimmy Graham.

Lots of discussion Monday about what will happen to tight end Jimmy Graham in free agency. It’s an intriguing question. Will someone, probably picking near the end of the first round, surrender first-round picks in 2014 and 2015, plus make Graham, 28, the highest-paid tight end in NFL history (at $12 million or $13 million per year)?

First, I would never do it. Let’s say Seattle—with a tight end need—was interested in Graham. The Seahawks have about $15 million in cap room, which shouldn’t be the big reason why they would either sign Graham or not sign him. Remember the important thing: In one year, three of the top players on the roster—Russell Wilson, Richard Sherman and Earl Thomas—are all eligible to negotiate new deals. Sherman and Thomas would be free agents; Wilson would have a year left on his rookie deal but likely will seek to re-do a contract he has vastly outperformed. The question is not whether Seattle could do the deal for Graham; the question is, with all the big-money deals coming due, whether Seattle GM John Schneider would be smart to sign a player who has hardly been at his best in the postseason, which is where Seattle expects to play for years. (Graham caught one ball for eight yards in his last six playoff quarters of the postseason just past.)

Finally, there is the question of salary management for very good players. Those two first-round picks likely would be key contributors for several years, and Seattle would have them at a team-friendly average of about $1.7 million per year. So you’re not only adding a salary of $12 million per year in Graham; you’re subtracting two top prospects, likely starters, at a favorable salary. Graham would be great, and the Seahawks or Patriots or another team with a crying tight end need would love having him … but the cost is excessive, if you ask me.
Sure, but why is he focusing on Seattle...? :confused: Why doesn't he mention a team like the Packers who have $35 million of cap space, or focus more on the Patriots who have $12 million and can increase that to at least $18-20 million by reworking contracts - both being teams who unlike Seattle doesn't have to save up in order to dish out $20 million on their young QB who is coming up for contract renewal.

Again; I don't find it highly likely that someone will go in and be able to grab him, but I find that a lot of smart experts make some rather dumb arguments on why that will not happen.

 
sorry, but I don't ever see a player being traded for 2 1sts and a huge contract
Wasn't Harvin traded for one 2013 1st, a 2013 7th and a mid round pick this year then signed a huge contract? Has Graham not done more and proven more?
yeah, buts that still not 2 1sts. I think the league values a player like Harvin more than we do because he can score from WR/RB/KR/PR, but even still they won the SB without him and its a good reminder to the league why trades like that aren't all that good.

 
Last edited by a moderator:

Users who are viewing this thread

Back
Top