Teacher's Seniority (1 Viewer)

[Cjw_55106]

[SIZE=medium]This is not a fishing trip, nor meant to cause a debate between the left and the right. I’m asking an honest question, because I don’t understand the stance. I know we have a few teachers that come around. The Mn house has OK’d a bill allowing teacher’s performance to be considered when layoffs occur, rather than straight seniority. Of course, the Reps are for and the Dems are against. Details aside as to how they come about the performance criteria, what would be the argument to be against this? The Democrat they had on the news said it was “demoralizing to teachers”. My first thought was, yeah, to bad teachers. At the end of the day, why would anyone be against better workers keeping the jobs? I’ll hang up and listen.[/SIZE]

 

[AcerFC]

Students are all different. They are the ones who are showing your performance

Would you want your job security ties to a class of Eminences

Obviously you would be OK with a class of MC Gas Moneys though

 

[AcerFC]

Seriously though

One class has a majority of it made up of low income, no parent involvement families

The other class has helicopter parents and millionaire parents

Who do you think is going to be fired based on student performance

 

[NutterButter]

[SIZE=medium]This is not a fishing trip, nor meant to cause a debate between the left and the right. I’m asking an honest question, because I don’t understand the stance. I know we have a few teachers that come around. The Mn house has OK’d a bill allowing teacher’s performance to be considered when layoffs occur, rather than straight seniority. Of course, the Reps are for and the Dems are against. Details aside as to how they come about the performance criteria, what would be the argument to be against this? The Democrat they had on the news said it was “demoralizing to teachers”. My first thought was, yeah, to bad teachers. At the end of the day, why would anyone be against better workers keeping the jobs? I’ll hang up and listen.[/SIZE]

As long as that's the intention and not just replacing more senior teachers that naturally make more money with younger, cheaper teachers. This is naturally coming from the perspective of those more senior teachers. From everyone else's perspective, there might not be enough of a performance difference to justify the higher salary. That does have long term ramifications though as who the hell would want to go into a profession where there's bleak long term job prospects.

 

[Thunderlips]

Primarily...it'd be an easy and valid way to cut more expensive teachers, regardless of their students productivity.

 

[Mario Kart]

What criteria is going to be used for "performance"?

- teacher attendance?

- student achievement?

- teacher paper work filled out correctly?

- lack of parent complaints?

A couple of these the teacher has zero control over yet their performance may not be up to them.

 

[Officer Pete Malloy]

Pretty much what has already been said (even Mario Fart).

Teacher "performance" is a very hard thing to gauge...especially when it means keeping or losing a job.

 

[SHIZNITTTT]

Are there not benchmarks? Test at the beginning of the year vs. end of year testing results?

 

[Ditka Butkus]

AcerFC has provided the correct answer.

 

[Cjw_55106]

Pretty much what has already been said (even Mario Fart).

Teacher "performance" is a very hard thing to gauge...especially when it means keeping or losing a job.

I completely understand that. I dont know what the measures would be, they didnt say.

 

[Cjw_55106]

AcerFC has provided the correct answer.

Meh, I assume the performance would not be judged with a single year. Keep in mind they dont lay people off every year either.

 

[AcerFC]

AcerFC has provided the correct answer.

Meh, I assume the performance would not be judged with a single year. Keep in mind they dont lay people off every year either.

If Gov Cuomo gets what he wants, this is exactly what will happen

 

[SHIZNITTTT]

Lower measures for lower income single parent homes? Higher measures for high income families with two parents?

 

[AcerFC]

Lower measures for lower income single parent homes? Higher measures for high income families with two parents?

Good luck with that

 

[Officer Pete Malloy]

Are there not benchmarks? Test at the beginning of the year vs. end of year testing results?

There are...but standardized tests are a pretty crappy yardstick when it comes to "teacher performance".

 

[Hov34]

Pretty much what has already been said (even Mario Fart).

Teacher "performance" is a very hard thing to gauge...especially when it means keeping or losing a job.

Agreed. But the funny thing is being in elementarty schools for almost 20 years everyone knows who the "good" teachers are - just no way to reliably "prove" it.

 

[Ditka Butkus]

AcerFC has provided the correct answer.

Meh, I assume the performance would not be judged with a single year. Keep in mind they dont lay people off every year either.

In our school district in Florida your pay is based on performance and it is year to year.

 

[Officer Pete Malloy]

Pretty much what has already been said (even Mario Fart).

Teacher "performance" is a very hard thing to gauge...especially when it means keeping or losing a job.

Agreed. But the funny thing is being in elementarty schools for almost 20 years everyone knows who the "good" teachers are - just no way to reliably "prove" it.

Exactly.

 

[Cjw_55106]

AcerFC has provided the correct answer.

Meh, I assume the performance would not be judged with a single year. Keep in mind they dont lay people off every year either.

In our school district in Florida your pay is based on performance and it is year to year.

What do they use to measure that?

 

[snogger]

Seriously though

One class has a majority of it made up of low income, no parent involvement families

The other class has helicopter parents and millionaire parents

Who do you think is going to be fired based on student performance

Based on what I saw on the news last night about the bill.. Seniority would still be a Big part of the decision, just not the Sole decision as it tends to be now..

Right now it's basically a "First in/ Last Out" which can screw over better qualified teachers.

Now how you go about the criteria for Performance but would think it should at least be considered.

 

[avoiding injuries]

My wife had observations by the principal to determine her performance rating. It didn't have to do with the students.

 

[Cjw_55106]

Thanks Snogger, I guess I wasnt clear in the OP, but thats what I meant when I said "rather than straight seniority".

I think for my money, I’d rather see people keep their jobs because they were deemed good teachers rather than they have been here for 15 years....regardless of the litmus test.

 

[bigbottom]

Pretty much what has already been said (even Mario Fart).

Teacher "performance" is a very hard thing to gauge...especially when it means keeping or losing a job.

Agreed. But the funny thing is being in elementarty schools for almost 20 years everyone knows who the "good" teachers are - just no way to reliably "prove" it.

Hopefully this is the year you graduate!

 

[Ditka Butkus]

AcerFC has provided the correct answer.

Meh, I assume the performance would not be judged with a single year. Keep in mind they dont lay people off every year either.

In our school district in Florida your pay is based on performance and it is year to year.

What do they use to measure that?

My wife is a teacher, so if I was paying attention while she was talking; they have some kind of student performance tests that measure their progress throughout the year. If a certain percentage of the students make a predetermined gain the teacher sees a monetary bonus if you will.

 

[snogger]

Thanks Snogger, I guess I wasnt clear in the OP, but thats what I meant when I said "rather than straight seniority".

I think for my money, I’d rather see people keep their jobs because they were deemed good teachers rather than they have been here for 15 years....regardless of the litmus test.

here is a link to the story

A bill that would allow Minnesota school districts to factor teacher performance into layoff decisions moved forward Monday at the State Capitol.

Currently state law requires school districts to evaluate performance, and to develop an evaluation system as part of negotiations with teachers unions.

But another state statute dictates that seniority determines the order of layoffs when districts are forced to cut teaching staff.

* One thing to Note*

This will NEVER become law.. Dayton is the Governor and would never sign it.. So at this time just a vote for the republicans to say they want to change things..

 

[AcerFC]

My wife had observations by the principal to determine her performance rating. It didn't have to do with the students.

In NY state, 60% is based on classroom observations (which can be subjective) and 40% based on student performance on state exams

 

[Hov34]

Pretty much what has already been said (even Mario Fart).

Teacher "performance" is a very hard thing to gauge...especially when it means keeping or losing a job.

Agreed. But the funny thing is being in elementarty schools for almost 20 years everyone knows who the "good" teachers are - just no way to reliably "prove" it.

Hopefully this is the year you graduate!

Don't jinx it!!!!

 

[RCon]

I don't understand the argument that "there's no good way to measure performance" when it comes to teachers. What makes teaching so different than, say, every other job in the world, such that teacher performance can't be assessed by peers and managers?

 

[avoiding injuries]

My wife had observations by the principal to determine her performance rating. It didn't have to do with the students.

In NY state, 60% is based on classroom observations (which can be subjective) and 40% based on student performance on state exams

That seems similar to a private sector job, and for the most part, fair.

 

[Flying V]

Pretty much what has already been said (even Mario Fart).

Teacher "performance" is a very hard thing to gauge...especially when it means keeping or losing a job.

True. For example, there could be a teacher that spends an awful lot of time posting on internet forums that have nothing to do with education, but might still manage to teach their students something from time to time.

 

[phowler13]

NYS teachers and cuomo are in major showdown. It's going to be ugly.

 

[Jack White]

[SIZE=medium]This is not a fishing trip, nor meant to cause a debate between the left and the right. I’m asking an honest question, because I don’t understand the stance. I know we have a few teachers that come around. The Mn house has OK’d a bill allowing teacher’s performance to be considered when layoffs occur, rather than straight seniority. Of course, the Reps are for and the Dems are against. Details aside as to how they come about the performance criteria, what would be the argument to be against this? The Democrat they had on the news said it was “demoralizing to teachers”. My first thought was, yeah, to bad teachers. At the end of the day, why would anyone be against better workers keeping the jobs? I’ll hang up and listen.[/SIZE]

What do you think unions are for? Certainly not to exalt high achievers.

 

[squidrope]

Have parents/students/admin rate teachers. Combine this with kids before and after test scores and whamo! Really shouldn't be that difficult to determine the dead wood.

 

[leftcoastguy7]

Have parents/students/admin rate teachers. Combine this with kids before and after test scores and whamo! Really shouldn't be that difficult to determine the dead wood.

What about elementary students?

"I rate Mrs. G. four gold stars!!!!

 

[shadyridr]

AcerFC has provided the correct answer.

Meh, I assume the performance would not be judged with a single year. Keep in mind they dont lay people off every year either.

so you are saying it should be tied to a number of years...aka seniority

 

[MaxThreshold]

I don't understand the argument that "there's no good way to measure performance" when it comes to teachers. What makes teaching so different than, say, every other job in the world, such that teacher performance can't be assessed by peers and managers?

My thoughts exactly. Everyone knows who the poor teachers are - and it has nothing to do with the kids. Everyone.

 

[Ilov80s]

Have parents/students/admin rate teachers. Combine this with kids before and after test scores and whamo! Really shouldn't be that difficult to determine the dead wood.

I think this is important, but it shouldn't go too far or a teacher becomes a servant for the kids and parents (which is the general direction things are moving).Also, as far as I am aware, there isn't a single student test that has been approved any scientific/academic group as being approved for evaluating teachers.

 

[johnnycakes]

My link.

 

[Officer Pete Malloy]

I don't understand the argument that "there's no good way to measure performance" when it comes to teachers. What makes teaching so different than, say, every other job in the world, such that teacher performance can't be assessed by peers and managers?

My thoughts exactly. Everyone knows who the poor teachers are - and it has nothing to do with the kids. Everyone.

So let's hear your suggestions.

 

[Insein]

My wife had observations by the principal to determine her performance rating. It didn't have to do with the students.

Which is also completely subjective on the lesson planned for that day. If its interactive with smart board apps and stuff, then awesome. However if they walk in on test prep or if you're showing a video for the subject material, you look boring.

 

[Insein]

Have parents/students/admin rate teachers. Combine this with kids before and after test scores and whamo! Really shouldn't be that difficult to determine the dead wood.

What about elementary students?"I rate Mrs. G. four gold stars!!!!

Or middle school students.

" I hate that ##### cause she told me to stop talking."

 

[Ilov80s]

Have parents/students/admin rate teachers. Combine this with kids before and after test scores and whamo! Really shouldn't be that difficult to determine the dead wood.

What about elementary students?"I rate Mrs. G. four gold stars!!!!

Or middle school students." I hate that ##### cause she told me to stop talking."

It's much more appropriate for HS where the kids are mature enough to recognize what a makes a good teacher.

 

[Jobber]

We've all seen less than stellar old timer teachers. The ones who mail it in every day, or use the same material they did in 1985. Those are the ones I'd like to see go versus a hard charging 25 year old.

 

[Ilov80s]

We've all seen less than stellar old timer teachers. The ones who mail it in every day, or use the same material they did in 1985. Those are the ones I'd like to see go versus a hard charging 25 year old.

I agree, moving towards the use of quality over seniority in layoffs/placement is a good thing.

 

[jonessed]

The bad teachers just get shuffled to the schools with less parental involvement. It's a double-whammy for those kids. No amount of money will salvage a decent education out of that situation.

If people want to support that then that's fine. I find it awful. The system needs to be able to purge bad teachers.

 

[mr roboto]

I refuse to believe that education is the only field in which you can't reliably determine the quality of the employee. It simply doesn't make any sense. If you take a three-year average of children's improvement in test scores (which would remove the OMG my kids are idiots all the millionaire kids are in Mr Smith's class!!!! objection), combined with some sort of metric of evaluation based on observation of teaching, combined with student feedback and parent feedback and sprinkle in a little bit of good old-fashioned subjective feedback from the bosses and other teachers, you would probably have a pretty good system for determining which teachers are not pulling their weight in a given school.

It seems weird to me that education is The best example where the perfect is the enemy of the good, meaning that many imperfect improvements that are discussed a recommended are thrown out by teachers because they're not perfect or there might be a small issue here there with them.

 

[mr roboto]

The real issue with tying employment to performance in the teaching field is that so many people got into teaching because it's rewarding and they love doing it and it is a very secure field once you've gotten tenure. So some of the pushback stems from the fact that the teacher constituency is made up largely folks who came into the system with an understanding that if they put a certain number of years and they were at a fairly low risk of losing their jobs. It's like trying to change the rules on pensions after somebody's been vested for 20 years, it's extremely difficult and understandable why the workforce would strongly resist a framework that they been operating under for decades.

 

[Mario Kart]

The real issue with tying employment to performance in the teaching field is that so many people got into teaching because it's rewarding and they love doing it and it is a very secure field once you've gotten tenure. So some of the pushback stems from the fact that the teacher constituency is made up largely folks who came into the system with an understanding that if they put a certain number of years and they were at a fairly low risk of losing their jobs. It's like trying to change the rules on pensions after somebody's been vested for 20 years, it's extremely difficult and understandable why the workforce would strongly resist a framework that they been operating under for decades.

Yeah, no.

 

[mr roboto]

The real issue with tying employment to performance in the teaching field is that so many people got into teaching because it's rewarding and they love doing it and it is a very secure field once you've gotten tenure. So some of the pushback stems from the fact that the teacher constituency is made up largely folks who came into the system with an understanding that if they put a certain number of years and they were at a fairly low risk of losing their jobs. It's like trying to change the rules on pensions after somebody's been vested for 20 years, it's extremely difficult and understandable why the workforce would strongly resist a framework that they been operating under for decades.

Yeah, no.

Yeah in many cases it is.

 

[leftcoastguy7]

No matter what field of endeavor you want to talk about, the fact remains that there are simply a few working at that job that suck. How many guys do you work with currently that you wonder why they haven't been fired yet?

It's the same with teaching. Yeah a few teachers stink. But the majority are hard-working and committed to the kids. They didn't go into the profession for the large cash bonuses.