The Crusades- not what you might have been taught (1 Viewer)

[tommyboy]

link to story

key passages (too long to post entire article)

Like many postmodern westerners, the politician suffers from a peculiar psychic disturbance — western-guilt syndrome — that regards the history of the West as an unmitigated horror show of slaughter, conquest and imperialistic domination. The Crusades are cast as among the darkest of dark episodes in the history of European civilization.

Too bad it’s wrong.

“The crusades are quite possibly the most misunderstood event n European history,” says historian Thomas Madden. “The Crusades were in every way a defensive war. They were a direct response to Muslim aggression — an attempt to turn back or defend against Muslim conquests of Christian lands.”

The West may now dominate the Islamic world, but that has only been the case since the late 18th century, when a young general, Napoleon Bonaparte, conquered Egypt and temporarily imposed French rule. This initial European penetration into one of the heartlands of Islam was “a terrible shock” to Muslims, says historian Bernard Lewis. Until then, they had thought of themselves as the victors in the Crusades.

and

Islam unquestionably won the Crusades, even though Europe was ultimately able to reassert itself and dominate the world. The reasons for this success are much debated, but it’s reasonable to conclude that the West won the war of ideas. Notions of individualism and freedom, capitalism and technology, and, most of all, the West’s turn from theology to science, carried the day. Religion became in the West an essentially private concern. It is on this “modern” turn that the anti-Crusade attitude developed.

During the Protestant Reformation, when the authority of the Catholic church was under attack, the Crusades began to be regarded as a ploy by power-hungry popes and land-hungry aristocrats. This judgment was extended by the Enlightenment philosophes, who used the Crusades as a cudgel with which to beat the church. The Enlightenment view of the Crusades still holds sway. After the Second World War, with western intellectuals feeling guilty about imperialism and European politicians desperate to abandon colonial responsibilities, the Crusades became intellectually unfashionable.

 

[McJose]

I'm sure all those people in Constantinople during the 4th Crusade were just asking for it.

 

[the moops]

I would sure hate to be a muslim neighbor of tommyboy.

 

[McJose]

I would sure hate to be a muslim neighbor of tommyboy.

 

[[scooter]]

I don't trust any story published by Canadians.

 

[NFLJUNKEY]

I'm sure all those people in Constantinople during the 4th Crusade were just asking for it.

Actually the west took back many of the things that Byzantine Emperor Justinian took when he sacked Italy to try and reunite the two empires. A lot of the knowledge of the ancient Greeks and Romans were brought back. Granted it was merely a huge side beneift as the Crusaders, like in the 1st Crusade, went to the wrong place. They were told to go and retake Jerusalem, but short attention spans took over. Amazing how history repeats itself. As in some wacko dude in Afganistan manages to take out the WTC Towers. Bush retaliates by sending troops to Iraq. Ahhh...close enough.

 

[Leeroy Jenkins]

I would sure hate to be a muslim neighbor of tommyboy.

Stole my thunder there.

 

[saintfool]

historian bernard lewis is all i needed to know when i read the first post. thanks.

 

[Ministry of Pain]

I would sure hate to be a muslim neighbor of tommyboy.

I still like TommyBoy, his threads spark a lot of posts, and I do agree with some of his POV.

 

[bueno]

What happened in modern education where people do longer beieve that the Crusades were not a counter-attack against an expansionist world-view that would have overwhelmed the west if given a chance?

Does anyone not remember that prior to Muhammed, the entire Middle East was Christian, except for a couple pagan areas in the middle of nowhere (like say, Mecca?) Does anyone not know that Muslims conquered most of the ME (and in fact most of what today is the Islamic world) by use of the sword?

Bernard Lewis is probably the pre-eminent Middele Eastern historian. Of course if you prefer revisionist, hate the west first history, you will not like him much, but he knows his stuff.

 

[tommyboy]

honestly wouldn't care if my neighbors were muslim as long as they weren't jerks or fundamentalist radicals. I'm not into fundamentalists be they any religion quite frankly. If my neighbors were muslim and started blaring the call to prayer at 5:00 on loudspeakers well then we'd have a problem.

 

[timschochet]

I would just like to add that my Jewish ancestors really loved the part when the Crusaders, on their way to Jerusalem, were thoughtful enough to slaughter every Jew they came across, man woman and child, especially in Bohemia, where perhaps 500,000 Jews were slaughtered by Crusaders. This was a way to keep our population numbers under control, and for that we are truly grateful even to this day.

 

[Sweet J]

Does anyone not remember that prior to Muhammed, the entire Middle East was Christian, except for a couple pagan areas in the middle of nowhere (like say, Mecca?) Does anyone not know that Muslims conquered most of the ME (and in fact most of what today is the Islamic world) by use of the sword?

As opposed to Christians conquering S. America by use of the sword?

 

[timschochet]

Does anyone not remember that prior to Muhammed, the entire Middle East was Christian, except for a couple pagan areas in the middle of nowhere (like say, Mecca?) Does anyone not know that Muslims conquered most of the ME (and in fact most of what today is the Islamic world) by use of the sword?

As opposed to Christians conquering S. America by use of the sword?

And how did the "entire Middle East" get to be Christian, anyhow? Could it have been that my Jewish ancestors were murdered or driven out? Does the word Diaspora mean anything to anyone here?

 

[timschochet]

Five worst events ever to befall the Jewish people:

1. The Holocaust 1941-1945

2. The Cossack Uprising 1649-1653

3. The Crusades 1000-1200

4. The Spanish Inquisition 1492-1510

5. Russian Pogroms 1890-1910

Strangely enough, none of these events were begun by Muslims...

 

[Sweet J]

Does anyone not remember that prior to Muhammed, the entire Middle East was Christian, except for a couple pagan areas in the middle of nowhere (like say, Mecca?) Does anyone not know that Muslims conquered most of the ME (and in fact most of what today is the Islamic world) by use of the sword?

As opposed to Christians conquering S. America by use of the sword?

And how did the "entire Middle East" get to be Christian, anyhow? Could it have been that my Jewish ancestors were murdered or driven out? Does the word Diaspora mean anything to anyone here?

:wiggem: My cat ate my Diaspora. :wiggem:

 

[bueno]

Does anyone not remember that prior to Muhammed, the entire Middle East was Christian, except for a couple pagan areas in the middle of nowhere (like say, Mecca?) Does anyone not know that Muslims conquered most of the ME (and in fact most of what today is the Islamic world) by use of the sword?

As opposed to Christians conquering S. America by use of the sword?

So what? Certainly the Spanish conquest of Latin America is on par with the Arab conquest of the near east. But it is irrelevant. Two wrongs do not make a right. The Crusades, whatever else they may have been and whatever "sins" may have been created by the Christians, were a counter-attack against a religion and cultural that might have conquered all Europe otherwise.

 

[Sweet J]

Five worst events ever to befall the Jewish people:1. The Holocaust 1941-19452. The Cossack Uprising 1649-16533. The Crusades 1000-12004. The Spanish Inquisition 1492-15105. Russian Pogroms 1890-1910Strangely enough, none of these events were begun by Muslims...

Well, to be honest, not all of them actually happened.

 

[tommyboy]

Five worst events ever to befall the Jewish people:1. The Holocaust 1941-19452. The Cossack Uprising 1649-16533. The Crusades 1000-12004. The Spanish Inquisition 1492-15105. Russian Pogroms 1890-1910Strangely enough, none of these events were begun by Muslims...

what about when god killed 2.4 million jews during Exodus?

 

[bueno]

Does anyone not remember that prior to Muhammed, the entire Middle East was Christian, except for a couple pagan areas in the middle of nowhere (like say, Mecca?) Does anyone not know that Muslims conquered most of the ME (and in fact most of what today is the Islamic world) by use of the sword?

As opposed to Christians conquering S. America by use of the sword?

And how did the "entire Middle East" get to be Christian, anyhow? Could it have been that my Jewish ancestors were murdered or driven out? Does the word Diaspora mean anything to anyone here?

:wiggem: My cat ate my Diaspora. :wiggem:

As I recall, it had something to do with a revolt against the Romans....The Zealots existed before Christianity did, and not all Jews left the ME. There were plenty left to slaughter when the Christians did conquer Jerusaleum, but to be fair, the Christians slaughtered eveeryone - including other Christians.

 

[tommyboy]

Does anyone not remember that prior to Muhammed, the entire Middle East was Christian, except for a couple pagan areas in the middle of nowhere (like say, Mecca?) Does anyone not know that Muslims conquered most of the ME (and in fact most of what today is the Islamic world) by use of the sword?

As opposed to Christians conquering S. America by use of the sword?

And how did the "entire Middle East" get to be Christian, anyhow? Could it have been that my Jewish ancestors were murdered or driven out? Does the word Diaspora mean anything to anyone here?

you can thank Constantine.

 

[Sweet J]

Does anyone not remember that prior to Muhammed, the entire Middle East was Christian, except for a couple pagan areas in the middle of nowhere (like say, Mecca?) Does anyone not know that Muslims conquered most of the ME (and in fact most of what today is the Islamic world) by use of the sword?

As opposed to Christians conquering S. America by use of the sword?

So what? Certainly the Spanish conquest of Latin America is on par with the Arab conquest of the near east. But it is irrelevant. Two wrongs do not make a right. The Crusades, whatever else they may have been and whatever "sins" may have been created by the Christians, were a counter-attack against a religion and cultural that might have conquered all Europe otherwise.

If you want to make an argument of some sort, feel free to do it. If you want to try and make a distinction between Muslim and Christian by implying that only the evil Muslims would conquer an area by use of the sword, I will point, and giggle, in effeminate mocking tones.

 

[Sweet J]

Five worst events ever to befall the Jewish people:1. The Holocaust 1941-19452. The Cossack Uprising 1649-16533. The Crusades 1000-12004. The Spanish Inquisition 1492-15105. Russian Pogroms 1890-1910Strangely enough, none of these events were begun by Muslims...

what about when god killed 2.4 million jews during Exodus?

They are his people, and therefore his to kill. Make your own if you want to kill something that badly.

 

[bueno]

Five worst events ever to befall the Jewish people:1. The Holocaust 1941-19452. The Cossack Uprising 1649-16533. The Crusades 1000-12004. The Spanish Inquisition 1492-15105. Russian Pogroms 1890-1910Strangely enough, none of these events were begun by Muslims...

what about when god killed 2.4 million jews during Exodus?

I do not see the flood or Soddom and Gamorrah on here either.And I would be curious to see exactly who many Jews died in some of the aboove five versus how many died in the various wars against the Arabs.....

 

[bueno]

Does anyone not remember that prior to Muhammed, the entire Middle East was Christian, except for a couple pagan areas in the middle of nowhere (like say, Mecca?) Does anyone not know that Muslims conquered most of the ME (and in fact most of what today is the Islamic world) by use of the sword?

As opposed to Christians conquering S. America by use of the sword?

So what? Certainly the Spanish conquest of Latin America is on par with the Arab conquest of the near east. But it is irrelevant. Two wrongs do not make a right. The Crusades, whatever else they may have been and whatever "sins" may have been created by the Christians, were a counter-attack against a religion and cultural that might have conquered all Europe otherwise.

If you want to make an argument of some sort, feel free to do it. If you want to try and make a distinction between Muslim and Christian by implying that only the evil Muslims would conquer an area by use of the sword, I will point, and giggle, in effeminate mocking tones.

I did not see where I am couching anything in terms of good and evil. The Muslim world was expanding at sword point and threatening the Christian World with being overrun. The Christian world counterattacked. Historic fact.Giggle alll you want, little girl, but that is the way it was.

 

[timschochet]

Five worst events ever to befall the Jewish people:1. The Holocaust 1941-19452. The Cossack Uprising 1649-16533. The Crusades 1000-12004. The Spanish Inquisition 1492-15105. Russian Pogroms 1890-1910Strangely enough, none of these events were begun by Muslims...

what about when god killed 2.4 million jews during Exodus?

I do not see the flood or Soddom and Gamorrah on here either.And I would be curious to see exactly who many Jews died in some of the aboove five versus how many died in the various wars against the Arabs.....

Well first, I was referring to events that have some sort of historical record, other than the Bible. But to answer your second question:If you're referring to the wars since 1948 between Israel and the Arabs, it would be my guess that the total Israeli dead is around 50,000, out of a population of 3.5 million (500,000 when Israel was established in 1948.) Of course this can be fully documented. If you want to add Jews killed in Arab countries before and after Israel was established, lets double that figure and say 100,000 for the sake of argument. Now, regarding my list:1. Holocaust 6 million Jews2. Cossack Uprising 2 million Jews is our best estimate.3. Crusides 1.5 million Jews, 500,000 in Bohemia alone.4. Spanish Inquisition 1,000,000 Jews killed, 500,000 Jews converted, 3 million Jews forced to leave Western Europe5. Russian Pogroms 300,000 Jews killed, 3.5 million Jews forced to leave Russia.So your point is?

 

[bueno]

Five worst events ever to befall the Jewish people:1. The Holocaust 1941-19452. The Cossack Uprising 1649-16533. The Crusades 1000-12004. The Spanish Inquisition 1492-15105. Russian Pogroms 1890-1910Strangely enough, none of these events were begun by Muslims...

what about when god killed 2.4 million jews during Exodus?

I do not see the flood or Soddom and Gamorrah on here either.And I would be curious to see exactly who many Jews died in some of the aboove five versus how many died in the various wars against the Arabs.....

Well first, I was referring to events that have some sort of historical record, other than the Bible. But to answer your second question:If you're referring to the wars since 1948 between Israel and the Arabs, it would be my guess that the total Israeli dead is around 50,000, out of a population of 3.5 million (500,000 when Israel was established in 1948.) Of course this can be fully documented. If you want to add Jews killed in Arab countries before and after Israel was established, lets double that figure and say 100,000 for the sake of argument. Now, regarding my list:1. Holocaust 6 million Jews2. Cossack Uprising 2 million Jews is our best estimate.3. Crusides 1.5 million Jews, 500,000 in Bohemia alone.4. Spanish Inquisition 1,000,000 Jews killed, 500,000 Jews converted, 3 million Jews forced to leave Western Europe5. Russian Pogroms 300,000 Jews killed, 3.5 million Jews forced to leave Russia.So your point is?

I think you would be hard to find a credible source that would document the killing of 1,000,000 total people during the entire Spanish Inquisition. In fact, I think you would be hard-pressed to document 100,000 deaths during that period.I´m betting more Jews have been killed in the ME than that over a much shorter time span (since 1948). As to their expulsion, that happened in a lot of countries. When the king needed money, he welcomed in the Jews. When they became too powerful, he threw them out. But what this tangent has to do with the original subject is beyond me.

 

[timschochet]

Five worst events ever to befall the Jewish people:1. The Holocaust 1941-19452. The Cossack Uprising 1649-16533. The Crusades 1000-12004. The Spanish Inquisition 1492-15105. Russian Pogroms 1890-1910Strangely enough, none of these events were begun by Muslims...

what about when god killed 2.4 million jews during Exodus?

I do not see the flood or Soddom and Gamorrah on here either.And I would be curious to see exactly who many Jews died in some of the aboove five versus how many died in the various wars against the Arabs.....

Well first, I was referring to events that have some sort of historical record, other than the Bible. But to answer your second question:If you're referring to the wars since 1948 between Israel and the Arabs, it would be my guess that the total Israeli dead is around 50,000, out of a population of 3.5 million (500,000 when Israel was established in 1948.) Of course this can be fully documented. If you want to add Jews killed in Arab countries before and after Israel was established, lets double that figure and say 100,000 for the sake of argument. Now, regarding my list:1. Holocaust 6 million Jews2. Cossack Uprising 2 million Jews is our best estimate.3. Crusides 1.5 million Jews, 500,000 in Bohemia alone.4. Spanish Inquisition 1,000,000 Jews killed, 500,000 Jews converted, 3 million Jews forced to leave Western Europe5. Russian Pogroms 300,000 Jews killed, 3.5 million Jews forced to leave Russia.So your point is?

I think you would be hard to find a credible source that would document the killing of 1,000,000 total people during the entire Spanish Inquisition. In fact, I think you would be hard-pressed to document 100,000 deaths during that period.I´m betting more Jews have been killed in the ME than that over a much shorter time span (since 1948). As to their expulsion, that happened in a lot of countries. When the king needed money, he welcomed in the Jews. When they became too powerful, he threw them out. But what this tangent has to do with the original subject is beyond me.

You're correct, I was confusing the Inquisition with the Cossack Uprising. In the Inquisition, actually more Jews were forced to flee than were killed. What is has to do with the original subject is that I didn't want the Crusades seen as some sort of heroic affair, so I pointed out it was one of the worst events ever in terms of Jews. Then when somebody argued how evil the Muslims were in history as compared to the Christians, I decided to explore this from a Jewish perspective; hence my list.

 

[cstu]

“The crusades are quite possibly the most misunderstood event n European history,” says historian Thomas Madden. “The Crusades were in every way a defensive war. They were a direct response to Muslim aggression — an attempt to turn back or defend against Muslim conquests of Christian lands.”

"Killing for religion, something I don't understand"

 

[bueno]

Five worst events ever to befall the Jewish people:1. The Holocaust 1941-19452. The Cossack Uprising 1649-16533. The Crusades 1000-12004. The Spanish Inquisition 1492-15105. Russian Pogroms 1890-1910Strangely enough, none of these events were begun by Muslims...

what about when god killed 2.4 million jews during Exodus?

I do not see the flood or Soddom and Gamorrah on here either.And I would be curious to see exactly who many Jews died in some of the aboove five versus how many died in the various wars against the Arabs.....

Well first, I was referring to events that have some sort of historical record, other than the Bible. But to answer your second question:If you're referring to the wars since 1948 between Israel and the Arabs, it would be my guess that the total Israeli dead is around 50,000, out of a population of 3.5 million (500,000 when Israel was established in 1948.) Of course this can be fully documented. If you want to add Jews killed in Arab countries before and after Israel was established, lets double that figure and say 100,000 for the sake of argument. Now, regarding my list:1. Holocaust 6 million Jews2. Cossack Uprising 2 million Jews is our best estimate.3. Crusides 1.5 million Jews, 500,000 in Bohemia alone.4. Spanish Inquisition 1,000,000 Jews killed, 500,000 Jews converted, 3 million Jews forced to leave Western Europe5. Russian Pogroms 300,000 Jews killed, 3.5 million Jews forced to leave Russia.So your point is?

I think you would be hard to find a credible source that would document the killing of 1,000,000 total people during the entire Spanish Inquisition. In fact, I think you would be hard-pressed to document 100,000 deaths during that period.I´m betting more Jews have been killed in the ME than that over a much shorter time span (since 1948). As to their expulsion, that happened in a lot of countries. When the king needed money, he welcomed in the Jews. When they became too powerful, he threw them out. But what this tangent has to do with the original subject is beyond me.

You're correct, I was confusing the Inquisition with the Cossack Uprising. In the Inquisition, actually more Jews were forced to flee than were killed. What is has to do with the original subject is that I didn't want the Crusades seen as some sort of heroic affair, so I pointed out it was one of the worst events ever in terms of Jews. Then when somebody argued how evil the Muslims were in history as compared to the Christians, I decided to explore this from a Jewish perspective; hence my list.

Well, I don´t think anyone except the maniac running Iran and people like him will deny that the Jews have had it pretty tough from a historic perspective.Plus they are denied the world´s greatest food - bacon!

 

[timschochet]

Five worst events ever to befall the Jewish people:1. The Holocaust 1941-19452. The Cossack Uprising 1649-16533. The Crusades 1000-12004. The Spanish Inquisition 1492-15105. Russian Pogroms 1890-1910Strangely enough, none of these events were begun by Muslims...

what about when god killed 2.4 million jews during Exodus?

I do not see the flood or Soddom and Gamorrah on here either.And I would be curious to see exactly who many Jews died in some of the aboove five versus how many died in the various wars against the Arabs.....

Well first, I was referring to events that have some sort of historical record, other than the Bible. But to answer your second question:If you're referring to the wars since 1948 between Israel and the Arabs, it would be my guess that the total Israeli dead is around 50,000, out of a population of 3.5 million (500,000 when Israel was established in 1948.) Of course this can be fully documented. If you want to add Jews killed in Arab countries before and after Israel was established, lets double that figure and say 100,000 for the sake of argument. Now, regarding my list:1. Holocaust 6 million Jews2. Cossack Uprising 2 million Jews is our best estimate.3. Crusides 1.5 million Jews, 500,000 in Bohemia alone.4. Spanish Inquisition 1,000,000 Jews killed, 500,000 Jews converted, 3 million Jews forced to leave Western Europe5. Russian Pogroms 300,000 Jews killed, 3.5 million Jews forced to leave Russia.So your point is?

I think you would be hard to find a credible source that would document the killing of 1,000,000 total people during the entire Spanish Inquisition. In fact, I think you would be hard-pressed to document 100,000 deaths during that period.I´m betting more Jews have been killed in the ME than that over a much shorter time span (since 1948). As to their expulsion, that happened in a lot of countries. When the king needed money, he welcomed in the Jews. When they became too powerful, he threw them out. But what this tangent has to do with the original subject is beyond me.

You're correct, I was confusing the Inquisition with the Cossack Uprising. In the Inquisition, actually more Jews were forced to flee than were killed. What is has to do with the original subject is that I didn't want the Crusades seen as some sort of heroic affair, so I pointed out it was one of the worst events ever in terms of Jews. Then when somebody argued how evil the Muslims were in history as compared to the Christians, I decided to explore this from a Jewish perspective; hence my list.

Well, I don´t think anyone except the maniac running Iran and people like him will deny that the Jews have had it pretty tough from a historic perspective.Plus they are denied the world´s greatest food - bacon!

I eat it all the time. Also pepperoni and pork chops. Some of us are unfortunate sinners.

 

[Challenge Everything]

All I needed to learn about the Crusades, I learned from Indiana Jones Sr. and Jr.

 

[bueno]

Five worst events ever to befall the Jewish people:1. The Holocaust 1941-19452. The Cossack Uprising 1649-16533. The Crusades 1000-12004. The Spanish Inquisition 1492-15105. Russian Pogroms 1890-1910Strangely enough, none of these events were begun by Muslims...

what about when god killed 2.4 million jews during Exodus?

I do not see the flood or Soddom and Gamorrah on here either.And I would be curious to see exactly who many Jews died in some of the aboove five versus how many died in the various wars against the Arabs.....

Well first, I was referring to events that have some sort of historical record, other than the Bible. But to answer your second question:If you're referring to the wars since 1948 between Israel and the Arabs, it would be my guess that the total Israeli dead is around 50,000, out of a population of 3.5 million (500,000 when Israel was established in 1948.) Of course this can be fully documented. If you want to add Jews killed in Arab countries before and after Israel was established, lets double that figure and say 100,000 for the sake of argument. Now, regarding my list:1. Holocaust 6 million Jews2. Cossack Uprising 2 million Jews is our best estimate.3. Crusides 1.5 million Jews, 500,000 in Bohemia alone.4. Spanish Inquisition 1,000,000 Jews killed, 500,000 Jews converted, 3 million Jews forced to leave Western Europe5. Russian Pogroms 300,000 Jews killed, 3.5 million Jews forced to leave Russia.So your point is?

I think you would be hard to find a credible source that would document the killing of 1,000,000 total people during the entire Spanish Inquisition. In fact, I think you would be hard-pressed to document 100,000 deaths during that period.I´m betting more Jews have been killed in the ME than that over a much shorter time span (since 1948). As to their expulsion, that happened in a lot of countries. When the king needed money, he welcomed in the Jews. When they became too powerful, he threw them out. But what this tangent has to do with the original subject is beyond me.

You're correct, I was confusing the Inquisition with the Cossack Uprising. In the Inquisition, actually more Jews were forced to flee than were killed. What is has to do with the original subject is that I didn't want the Crusades seen as some sort of heroic affair, so I pointed out it was one of the worst events ever in terms of Jews. Then when somebody argued how evil the Muslims were in history as compared to the Christians, I decided to explore this from a Jewish perspective; hence my list.

Well, I don´t think anyone except the maniac running Iran and people like him will deny that the Jews have had it pretty tough from a historic perspective.Plus they are denied the world´s greatest food - bacon!

I eat it all the time. Also pepperoni and pork chops. Some of us are unfortunate sinners.

I like unfortunate sinners. I like fortunate sinners more, but you will do!

 

[HellToupee]

2. Cossack Uprising 2 million Jews is our best estimate.

you fancy yourself a historian estimator

 

[timschochet]

2. Cossack Uprising 2 million Jews is our best estimate.

you fancy yourself a historian estimator

No, they teach you this in Jew school, along with who makes the best bagel and how to secretly control the media in order to make them pro-Israeli.

 

[HellToupee]

2. Cossack Uprising 2 million Jews is our best estimate.

you fancy yourself a historian estimator

No, they teach you this in Jew school, along with who makes the best bagel and how to secretly control the media in order to make them pro-Israeli.

Seems like the same teachings I received in Parochial school

 

[bueno]

2. Cossack Uprising 2 million Jews is our best estimate.

you fancy yourself a historian estimator

No, they teach you this in Jew school, along with who makes the best bagel and how to secretly control the media in order to make them pro-Israeli.

Seems like the same teachings I received in Parochial school

So, who does make the best bagel?

 

[timschochet]

2. Cossack Uprising 2 million Jews is our best estimate.

you fancy yourself a historian estimator

No, they teach you this in Jew school, along with who makes the best bagel and how to secretly control the media in order to make them pro-Israeli.

Seems like the same teachings I received in Parochial school

So, who does make the best bagel?

That's a secret I cannot divulge. If you were Jewish you'd know, along with how to give orders to CNN.

 

[[scooter]]

What happened in modern education where people do longer beieve that the Crusades were not a counter-attack against an expansionist world-view that would have overwhelmed the west if given a chance?

And which of the 10-15 separate crusades were actually "counterattacks"? How many counterattacks were necessary to recapture the territory?

 

[HellToupee]

2. Cossack Uprising 2 million Jews is our best estimate.

you fancy yourself a historian estimator

No, they teach you this in Jew school, along with who makes the best bagel and how to secretly control the media in order to make them pro-Israeli.

Seems like the same teachings I received in Parochial school

So, who does make the best bagel?

the nuns told us the Jews

they also said they have the know how to make $$$

 

[HellToupee]

I need to learn more about the Crusades and WWI

 

[HellToupee]

so when does DD enter the fray and start spreading his own patented brand of hatred

 

[timschochet]

What happened in modern education where people do longer beieve that the Crusades were not a counter-attack against an expansionist world-view that would have overwhelmed the west if given a chance?

And which of the 10-15 separate crusades were actually "counterattacks"? How many counterattacks were necessary to recapture the territory?

All of them. They were all completely defensive in nature. The brave crusaders simply were trying to stop those dastardly Muslims from taking over all of Europe. The Muslims were at the gates of London when Richard the LionHeart's forces retaliated and chased them all the way back to the Holy Land. The moral is, if you don't thoroughly slaughter every man woman and child over there, they will follow you home.

 

[bueno]

What happened in modern education where people do longer beieve that the Crusades were not a counter-attack against an expansionist world-view that would have overwhelmed the west if given a chance?

And which of the 10-15 separate crusades were actually "counterattacks"? How many counterattacks were necessary to recapture the territory?

Obviously more than 10-15, as the west never did permanently hold Jerusalem.

 

[bueno]

2. Cossack Uprising 2 million Jews is our best estimate.

you fancy yourself a historian estimator

No, they teach you this in Jew school, along with who makes the best bagel and how to secretly control the media in order to make them pro-Israeli.

Seems like the same teachings I received in Parochial school

So, who does make the best bagel?

That's a secret I cannot divulge. If you were Jewish you'd know, along with how to give orders to CNN.

Couldn´t you give me who makes the second best bagel then? Or at least instructions on controlling CNN. I want them to take Greta back.

 

[Michael Fox Fan]

this thread was really supposed to be about tim's ancestors all along.

 

[McJose]

What happened in modern education where people do longer beieve that the Crusades were not a counter-attack against an expansionist world-view that would have overwhelmed the west if given a chance? Does anyone not remember that prior to Muhammed, the entire Middle East was Christian, except for a couple pagan areas in the middle of nowhere (like say, Mecca?)

Jews down?

 

[Kal El]

Five worst events ever to befall the Jewish people:1. The Holocaust 1941-19452. The Cossack Uprising 1649-16533. The Crusades 1000-12004. The Spanish Inquisition 1492-15105. Russian Pogroms 1890-1910Strangely enough, none of these events were begun by Muslims...

what about when god killed 2.4 million jews during Exodus?

Any fact to these numbers, or were you simply referring to where the Israelites disobeyed a perfectly clear command from God, and continued to dig a hole for themselves by constantly complaining about EVERYTHING. Frankly, if I had been in Moses' shoes, I might have taken him up on the offer from God found in the Numbers 14:11-12, "The LORD said to Moses, "How long will this people spurn Me? And how long will they not believe in Me, despite all the signs which I have performed in their midst? I will smite them with pestilence and dispossess them, and I will make you into a nation greater and mightier than they."

 

[Sweet J]

Does anyone not remember that prior to Muhammed, the entire Middle East was Christian, except for a couple pagan areas in the middle of nowhere (like say, Mecca?) Does anyone not know that Muslims conquered most of the ME (and in fact most of what today is the Islamic world) by use of the sword?

As opposed to Christians conquering S. America by use of the sword?

So what? Certainly the Spanish conquest of Latin America is on par with the Arab conquest of the near east. But it is irrelevant. Two wrongs do not make a right. The Crusades, whatever else they may have been and whatever "sins" may have been created by the Christians, were a counter-attack against a religion and cultural that might have conquered all Europe otherwise.

If you want to make an argument of some sort, feel free to do it. If you want to try and make a distinction between Muslim and Christian by implying that only the evil Muslims would conquer an area by use of the sword, I will point, and giggle, in effeminate mocking tones.

I did not see where I am couching anything in terms of good and evil. The Muslim world was expanding at sword point and threatening the Christian World with being overrun. The Christian world counterattacked. Historic fact.Giggle alll you want, little girl, but that is the way it was.

If Christians or Jews "expanded" into the Muslim world at sword point, then, under your logic, it is "acceptable" for the Muslims to "counter attack." Very interesting.

 

[FlapJacks]

so when does DD enter the fray and start spreading his own patented brand of hatred

I'm completely shuked by this post