The Death/Loss Of Religion In America (1 Viewer)

[Charlie Steiner]

I see this as well where I live, combined with an age/generational shift. The non-denominational churches are filled with young parents with small children. At least here among the people I've talked to, the reasoning is simple. The ND community is much more casual, come and go as you please, wear what you like, no strict kneeling/standing/sitting/reciting, let's Love Thy Neighbor a little more and fire and brimstone a little less.

I get it. I grew up attending Catholic mass every Sunday morning at 0830, and attended Catholic school from 7th-12th grade. Once I got "of age" and my attendance slacked I started getting comments in the grocery store like "I haven't seen you at church in a while". I don't need the structure of a mass in order to be religious, and I agree with the Amy character on Big Bang Theory: "I don't object to the concept of a deity, but I'm baffled by the notion of one that takes attendance." .

I think what's getting lost in the sauce is the focus on what one does vs why one does it.

In the early days of the church, people went because they wanted to go, because they were committed to the truth they heard and it was the guiding force of their lives, not because there's any line in scripture that says 'thou shalt meet at church every Sunday lest ye not go to heaven'.

I grew up in the Lutheran church, but by the time I was in high school, I stopped going, and by the time I was in college, I was 'done' with the church and pretty pissed at God. When I was 30, I was at a point where I turned back to God, was 'born again' and started reading the Bible more and going to church because I wanted to worship with other believers. After a few months, I went back to a Lutheran church and was stunned by how much of the service was taken directly from scripture, which is where I think churches start to go off the rails. They take for granted that what they do is supposed to or does have scriptural underpinnings and the true meaning of why they exist is lost in the weeds, because the focus has shifted to doing X,Y and Z to be 'right', instead of understanding why doing X,Y and Z is part of one's relationship with 'the divine'.

God doesn't take attendance; religious leaders focused on the religion instead of the deity do.

 

[BigJim®]

I had a very religious upbringing as Roman Catholic. I did get the sense even at a young age I appreciated religion differently from others. I didn't believe in Noah's Ark or turning water into wine mythology as factual history, but rather allegorical literature to teach life principles I understood and agreed with. Also notably, I was raised in an area without cultural/orientation diversity which might have shed light on the larger scale tribalistic aspects of religion.

For me, view of religion changed when a college course included the book The Children of Abraham. That book explored how each of Christianity/Judaism/Islam trace back to the same Abraham, and commonalities in these religions. If you accept that framing, each must worship the same "God." God hasn't changed. Mankind's tribalistic 'us vs them' tendencies have changed God.

More locally, I began to recognize tribalism even within Christian faith. Should the question of whether Mary was a divine being, or whether Christ or the Pope are the head of the faith, be worthy of a branched ideology? And these aren't trivial customs. For example, the question of whether faith alone, or faith + works, determines whether a follower is entitled to salvation. It's the grandest of stakes. After my mom passed in later years, my (again pious) dad was forbidden from marrying a 20-year divorcee unless she had that prior marriage annulled legally. Doing that legal paperwork, he's golden from a Roman Catholic perspective. They never did marry, and I suppose, accepted living in sin in a manner that did not technically run afoul.

In later years, I become more and more cognizant of how organized/fragmented religions are an insurmountable barrier to a world which embraces common interests we all share, which also accepts and respects alternative cultures - which we must become if we hope to live as a peaceful world. I still pray and believe in a higher power/meaning, but spirituality and beliefs are a personal thing for me now, and it does not involve isolating myself from others on religious grounds or sitting in judgment of those with different beliefs. I answer neutral because I do believe religion can be a helpful/guiding principle for many, just not organized religion.

 

[dgreen]

I’m pretty sick of people hiding behind their religion to spew hate and in the next sentence say Praise the Lord.

The God I grew up believing in loved everybody.

The greatest single cause of atheism in the world today is Christians who acknowledge Jesus with their lips and walk out the door and deny Him by their lifestyle. That is what an unbelieving world simply finds unbelievable.
- Brennan Manning

I don’t even disagree that this happens every day, but I’d still be willing to bet that for the purposes of the society that the “hypocritical lifestyle” in question is still better than the average non-religious person is living. Better or worse are relative and subjective terms, but for this particular thread I think it’s fair to agree that right and wrong still matter. So I do think there is going to be (already is) correlation between problems in society and the decline in believers. You can make a counter argument that actions are not inherently good or bad, but I think in terms of their impact on society we generally know which things are bad for it.

Totally disagree with this. There are horrible people on both sides of this but in my observation, believers, for the most part, are less christ-like than their counterparts. Istill have friends in the church that are great people, but they are outnumbered greatly by those who give Christianity a bad name.

I think that's a Biblical theme for spiritual leaders and those who think they are closer to God. There's great responsibility associated with such a position and God really wants those people to be on mission.

 

[dutch]

It’s a long evolutionary process, but I voted good. Now we need to start moving on removing National borders, ditching political affiliations for all voters and all candidates and repudiating the Jan Wenners of the world who seek to stratify good music.

 

[cheese]

Back in the early 2000s, we spent a lot of time debating whether religion was a positive or negative for society, on net. Over the next two decades, traditional religiosity dropped off quite a bit. Has society gotten healthier during that time, or did it get crazy?

One can argue that the reason it has gotten crazy is because of the church becoming more radical in its teachings which has also caused its numbers to dwindle

It’s basically impossible that anyone who actually goes to church believes this. You’d convince me that church was the worst part of America before you convinced me it’s more radical than it was 20-30 years ago. The actual messages being preached in 2023 across the country are more watered down to the mainstream than ever before. That is by design to try to stay viable as an institution with the changing opinions of the average American.

 

[MTskibum]

Both my wife and I grew up Catholic and both of our parents still attend church every week. We still go to mass 2-5 times a year depending on how often parents visit or how often we visit them.

My problem is that many people that go to church are very hypocritical about interpreting some parts of the bible literally and other parts figuratively. Jesus himself was friends with a prostitute and other sinners. However many Christians discriminate against people who do not follow sexual norms along with discriminating against other sinners. This is the exact opposite of how Jesus acted in the bible.

 

[George Costanza]

All I know is this... I went to the Vatican over the Summer on vacation and threw up while on a tour. I was raised Catholic, which means I am no longer religious, and that had to mean the demons wanted out. I'm just bummed that my wife missed the perfect opportunity to shout "The power of Christ compels you" as I puked repeatedly in front of others on tour. 100% true story.

On a serious note, I voted Good because, as others have already noted, it's not so much the religion that turned me off (well, it kinda did), it's the followers and their actions that I find objectionable. I have no issue with anyone finding solace in religion, or any other form of belief, and find the history of religion to be fascinating (hence my trip to the Vatican while in Rome), but I object when holier-than-thou believers try and force their beliefs unto others, which is all too common today (I also think that goes both ways). Believe whatever you'd like, just respect the fact that others may not believe in the same thing as you.

 

[Navin Johnson]

Back in the early 2000s, we spent a lot of time debating whether religion was a positive or negative for society, on net. Over the next two decades, traditional religiosity dropped off quite a bit. Has society gotten healthier during that time, or did it get crazy?

One can argue that the reason it has gotten crazy is because of the church becoming more radical in its teachings which has also caused its numbers to dwindle

It’s basically impossible that anyone who actually goes to church believes this. You’d convince me that church was the worst part of America before you convinced me it’s more radical than it was 20-30 years ago. The actual messages being preached in 2023 across the country are more watered down to the mainstream than ever before. That is by design to try to stay viable as an institution with the changing opinions of the average American.

Of course they wouldn't. Nobody actually believes they are being radicalized, and yet...

 

[cheese]

Back in the early 2000s, we spent a lot of time debating whether religion was a positive or negative for society, on net. Over the next two decades, traditional religiosity dropped off quite a bit. Has society gotten healthier during that time, or did it get crazy?

One can argue that the reason it has gotten crazy is because of the church becoming more radical in its teachings which has also caused its numbers to dwindle

It’s basically impossible that anyone who actually goes to church believes this. You’d convince me that church was the worst part of America before you convinced me it’s more radical than it was 20-30 years ago. The actual messages being preached in 2023 across the country are more watered down to the mainstream than ever before. That is by design to try to stay viable as an institution with the changing opinions of the average American.

Of course they wouldn't. Nobody actually believes they are being radicalized, and yet...

I am willing to listen to outside perspective about all of this, but doesn’t really make sense for people who don’t go to church to tell people who go to church what gets said in church.

 

[PIK95]

My cousins were alter boys. Now they are crack heads. I voted good.

 

[IvanKaramazov]

Back in the early 2000s, we spent a lot of time debating whether religion was a positive or negative for society, on net. Over the next two decades, traditional religiosity dropped off quite a bit. Has society gotten healthier during that time, or did it get crazy?

One can argue that the reason it has gotten crazy is because of the church becoming more radical in its teachings which has also caused its numbers to dwindle

It’s basically impossible that anyone who actually goes to church believes this. You’d convince me that church was the worst part of America before you convinced me it’s more radical than it was 20-30 years ago. The actual messages being preached in 2023 across the country are more watered down to the mainstream than ever before. That is by design to try to stay viable as an institution with the changing opinions of the average American.

I'm very strongly inclined to agree with this, and it certainly aligns with my own experience and pretty much everything I've read about churches recently (limited sample size). But, (a) it's a big country with lots of churches. It's possible that NJ happened to encounter one of the outliers. I'm sure those outliers exist. Also (b) my religious experience is mostly mainline protestantism. I have absolutely nothing against evangelicals, but I don't personally identify as one. My impression is that evangelical denominations and non-denominational congregations have historically been more politically conservative than other protestant denominations and so maybe he's talking about churches in that corner of the Christian community.

To your point, though, I definitely had the same experience as you. Over the last 25 years, my local United Methodist congregation went from a very solid non-nonsense traditional church to something indistinguishable from the United Church of Christ. (This transition started long before the schism, but the schism plus the pandemic really did a number on this particular congregation). It should go without saying that I don't mean that as a compliment. We recently switched to a different church, also in the Wesleyan tradition, in part because there wasn't enough Christianity and there was too much politics. The downside, such that it is, is that my wife and I are both used to traditional services with a traditional order of worship, and our new church does contemporary services where each service is 20 minutes of praise music followed by a 40 minute lecture. That's been an adjustment.

 

[dgreen]

Back in the early 2000s, we spent a lot of time debating whether religion was a positive or negative for society, on net. Over the next two decades, traditional religiosity dropped off quite a bit. Has society gotten healthier during that time, or did it get crazy?

One can argue that the reason it has gotten crazy is because of the church becoming more radical in its teachings which has also caused its numbers to dwindle

It’s basically impossible that anyone who actually goes to church believes this. You’d convince me that church was the worst part of America before you convinced me it’s more radical than it was 20-30 years ago. The actual messages being preached in 2023 across the country are more watered down to the mainstream than ever before. That is by design to try to stay viable as an institution with the changing opinions of the average American.

Of course they wouldn't. Nobody actually believes they are being radicalized, and yet...

I am willing to listen to outside perspective about all of this, but doesn’t really make sense for people who don’t go to church to tell people who go to church what gets said in church.

There's a lot of diversity in church teaching. I trust your experience is what you say and Navin's experience is what he says.

 

[ConstruxBoy]

And yes, Scientology is a cult but it still hurts religion overall.

You should read "Going Clear" for a more nuanced exploration of Scientology, if you are open to that idea.

 

[Navin Johnson]

Back in the early 2000s, we spent a lot of time debating whether religion was a positive or negative for society, on net. Over the next two decades, traditional religiosity dropped off quite a bit. Has society gotten healthier during that time, or did it get crazy?

One can argue that the reason it has gotten crazy is because of the church becoming more radical in its teachings which has also caused its numbers to dwindle

It’s basically impossible that anyone who actually goes to church believes this. You’d convince me that church was the worst part of America before you convinced me it’s more radical than it was 20-30 years ago. The actual messages being preached in 2023 across the country are more watered down to the mainstream than ever before. That is by design to try to stay viable as an institution with the changing opinions of the average American.

Of course they wouldn't. Nobody actually believes they are being radicalized, and yet...

I am willing to listen to outside perspective about all of this, but doesn’t really make sense for people who don’t go to church to tell people who go to church what gets said in church.

About as much sense as people who adhere to certain beliefs and practices trying to force others to live by the same practices and beliefs.

FWIW, as I posted above, I left the church 7 years ago at the age of 45 so I have a pretty good idea of what is being taught.

 

[Gally]

Voted good, but I would like to clarify that organized religion is what I would like to see fade away.

This is me right here. I went to a private religious school from K-6th grade but never went to church (other than school). I am probably more in the belief there is something out there but I have no idea what it is. I believe you should treat others how you want to be treated and that until you give me a reason to dislike you I will always give you a chance.

I think organized religion is terrible and leads to bad things including giving religion a bad rap. I think far too many people take advantage of other's in the name of religion to benefit themselves that it defeats the good religion can bring. I am not saying all are that way but it is very easy to prey on those looking for answers with no direction that it happens far too much.

I am more in the Bill & Ted viewpoint of be excellent to each other rather than religious per se

 

[dgreen]

Back in the early 2000s, we spent a lot of time debating whether religion was a positive or negative for society, on net. Over the next two decades, traditional religiosity dropped off quite a bit. Has society gotten healthier during that time, or did it get crazy?

One can argue that the reason it has gotten crazy is because of the church becoming more radical in its teachings which has also caused its numbers to dwindle

It’s basically impossible that anyone who actually goes to church believes this. You’d convince me that church was the worst part of America before you convinced me it’s more radical than it was 20-30 years ago. The actual messages being preached in 2023 across the country are more watered down to the mainstream than ever before. That is by design to try to stay viable as an institution with the changing opinions of the average American.

Of course they wouldn't. Nobody actually believes they are being radicalized, and yet...

I am willing to listen to outside perspective about all of this, but doesn’t really make sense for people who don’t go to church to tell people who go to church what gets said in church.

About as much sense as people who adhere to certain beliefs and practices trying to force others to live by the same practices and beliefs.

FWIW, as I posted above, I left the church 7 years ago at the age of 45 so I have a pretty good idea of what is being taught.

What are some examples of things you heard being taught?

 

[ConstruxBoy]

Back in the early 2000s, we spent a lot of time debating whether religion was a positive or negative for society, on net. Over the next two decades, traditional religiosity dropped off quite a bit. Has society gotten healthier during that time, or did it get crazy?

One can argue that the reason it has gotten crazy is because of the church becoming more radical in its teachings which has also caused its numbers to dwindle

It’s basically impossible that anyone who actually goes to church believes this. You’d convince me that church was the worst part of America before you convinced me it’s more radical than it was 20-30 years ago. The actual messages being preached in 2023 across the country are more watered down to the mainstream than ever before. That is by design to try to stay viable as an institution with the changing opinions of the average American.

I'm very strongly inclined to agree with this, and it certainly aligns with my own experience and pretty much everything I've read about churches recently (limited sample size). But, (a) it's a big country with lots of churches. It's possible that NJ happened to encounter one of the outliers. I'm sure those outliers exist. Also (b) my religious experience is mostly mainline protestantism. I have absolutely nothing against evangelicals, but I don't personally identify as one. My impression is that evangelical denominations and non-denominational congregations have historically been more politically conservative than other protestant denominations and so maybe he's talking about churches in that corner of the Christian community.

To your point, though, I definitely had the same experience as you. Over the last 25 years, my local United Methodist congregation went from a very solid non-nonsense traditional church to something indistinguishable from the United Church of Christ. (This transition started long before the schism, but the schism plus the pandemic really did a number on this particular congregation). It should go without saying that I don't mean that as a compliment. We recently switched to a different church, also in the Wesleyan tradition, in part because there wasn't enough Christianity and there was too much politics. The downside, such that it is, is that my wife and I are both used to traditional services with a traditional order of worship, and our new church does contemporary services where each service is 20 minutes of praise music followed by a 40 minute lecture. That's been an adjustment.

Has it helped bring more Millennials into the church?

 

[AAABatteries]

And yes, Scientology is a cult but it still hurts religion overall.

You should read "Going Clear" for a more nuanced exploration of Scientology, if you are open to that idea.

If by nuanced you mean they don’t call them a cult then I’m not interested. Granted I think somebody could saw that Islam or Christianity is just a cult that has been around a lot longer and I wouldn’t object too much.

 

[massraider]

It’s basically impossible that anyone who actually goes to church believes this. You’d convince me that church was the worst part of America before you convinced me it’s more radical than it was 20-30 years ago. The actual messages being preached in 2023 across the country are more watered down to the mainstream than ever before. That is by design to try to stay viable as an institution with the changing opinions of the average American.

I think it's basically impossible for anyone to tell me the message being preached across the country.

Like Ivan said, it's a big country. Lotta churches. Lotta people out there who don't believe in the teachings of the bible, who might use people's faith for their own ends.

 

[cheese]

It’s basically impossible that anyone who actually goes to church believes this. You’d convince me that church was the worst part of America before you convinced me it’s more radical than it was 20-30 years ago. The actual messages being preached in 2023 across the country are more watered down to the mainstream than ever before. That is by design to try to stay viable as an institution with the changing opinions of the average American.

I think it's basically impossible for anyone to tell me the message being preached across the country.

Like Ivan said, it's a big country. Lotta churches. Lotta people out there who don't believe in the teachings of the bible, who might use people's faith for their own ends.

For sure. I was talking about the macro. I’m sure there are exceptions.

 

[IvanKaramazov]

Back in the early 2000s, we spent a lot of time debating whether religion was a positive or negative for society, on net. Over the next two decades, traditional religiosity dropped off quite a bit. Has society gotten healthier during that time, or did it get crazy?

One can argue that the reason it has gotten crazy is because of the church becoming more radical in its teachings which has also caused its numbers to dwindle

It’s basically impossible that anyone who actually goes to church believes this. You’d convince me that church was the worst part of America before you convinced me it’s more radical than it was 20-30 years ago. The actual messages being preached in 2023 across the country are more watered down to the mainstream than ever before. That is by design to try to stay viable as an institution with the changing opinions of the average American.

I'm very strongly inclined to agree with this, and it certainly aligns with my own experience and pretty much everything I've read about churches recently (limited sample size). But, (a) it's a big country with lots of churches. It's possible that NJ happened to encounter one of the outliers. I'm sure those outliers exist. Also (b) my religious experience is mostly mainline protestantism. I have absolutely nothing against evangelicals, but I don't personally identify as one. My impression is that evangelical denominations and non-denominational congregations have historically been more politically conservative than other protestant denominations and so maybe he's talking about churches in that corner of the Christian community.

To your point, though, I definitely had the same experience as you. Over the last 25 years, my local United Methodist congregation went from a very solid non-nonsense traditional church to something indistinguishable from the United Church of Christ. (This transition started long before the schism, but the schism plus the pandemic really did a number on this particular congregation). It should go without saying that I don't mean that as a compliment. We recently switched to a different church, also in the Wesleyan tradition, in part because there wasn't enough Christianity and there was too much politics. The downside, such that it is, is that my wife and I are both used to traditional services with a traditional order of worship, and our new church does contemporary services where each service is 20 minutes of praise music followed by a 40 minute lecture. That's been an adjustment.

Has it helped bring more Millennials into the church?

Yes, and that was a huge part of getting us to accept the new format. When we started at our old church 25 years ago, they did three services that all got pretty decent attendance. It has since dwindled to a single service where the sanctuary is barely at 50% capacity. And the overwhelming majority of people are our age or older -- there aren't a lot of families with kids there anymore. Our new church doesn't sing the doxology or say the apostles creed (except for communion), but its filled with families, college students, and young adults. We attend an 8:30 service that probably attracts 300 or so, and that's their smallest service obviously. It's a big church by my town's standards.

It's very clear to us that we can either attend a living, growing church that does contemporary services or an old and dying church that does traditional. We prefer traditional, but we even more prefer not being confronted quite so directly with our mortality every Sunday morning, so contemporary with the youngs it is then.

 

[ConstruxBoy]

And yes, Scientology is a cult but it still hurts religion overall.

You should read "Going Clear" for a more nuanced exploration of Scientology, if you are open to that idea.

If by nuanced you mean they don’t call them a cult then I’m not interested. Granted I think somebody could saw that Islam or Christianity is just a cult that has been around a lot longer and I wouldn’t object too much.

Eh, Wright takes a fair view and let's the reader draw their own conclusion. But he does point out your second statement, which is fair. What makes walking on water and turning water into wine less "cult-like" than other religions?
Anyway, it's an excellent book, as are all of his.

 

[whoknew]

I write this with all due respect, so hopefully I'm not writing it in a way that offends anyone. But as an atheist, I couldn't vote anything but this is a good thing. Even aside from the problems of organized religion (and leaving aside weighing the pros and cons), believing in knowledge over mysticism (for lack of a better term) is a good thing. It's an advancement of society to have beliefs grounded in evidence and not faith in things that are not true.

I realize people disagree with that take. But having society believe in the truth and not believe in untruths is good (I think). And as an atheist, that means less religion is good.

 

[kupcho1]

There seems to be a pretty tight correlation between what religion a person observes and the religion their parents follow. Maybe not 100%, but pretty darn close.

I'd suggest that matters. Very few people choose a religion; more often it is chosen for them. Again, there are exceptions, but the rule seems to be inculcation.

 

[dgreen]

I write this with all due respect, so hopefully I'm not writing it in a way that offends anyone. But as an atheist, I couldn't vote anything but this is a good thing. Even aside from the problems of organized religion (and leaving aside weighing the pros and cons), believing in knowledge over mysticism (for lack of a better term) is a good thing. It's an advancement of society to have beliefs grounded in evidence and not faith in things that are not true.

I realize people disagree with that take. But having society believe in the truth and not believe in untruths is good (I think). And as an atheist, that means less religion is good.

I think it would help if religion stayed in its lane.

Also, people need to be more aware of the genres of literature contained in the Bible. And that goes for both believers and skeptics. For example, if one reads Genesis 1 as if it's a historical narrative or a journalistic approach to the scientific facts of creation, it could lead to bad conclusions. The believer might conclude that scientific discoveries are wrong when they contradict what they think is a historical telling of the creation events. The skeptic might conclude that it's all incorrect facts that must be ignored as nonsense that can't teach us some kind of truth.

 

[Zow]

I'm hardly the first person to make this point, but I think at this point it should be obvious the the "conservation of religion" argument was correct. When people abandon Christianity (using this as my example because we're talking the US, but this would hold for any major religion), those people don't become hyper-rational Sam Harris types who really get into science. Instead, they substitute some other form of fantastical thinking instead.

At this point, I think it's undeniable that large segments of our population have transformed their political identities into pseudo-religions, complete with their own dogmas/mantras, liturgical calendars, epistemologies, view of human sin, means of salvation, etc. They even maintain norms against interfaith marriage that have mostly fallen by the wayside among actual religions. If you think religious polarization is bad, and if you think political polarization is bad, then it seems like merging the two should be a five-alarm civic fire, but nobody seems to care and I'm content just to sit back and see how this all plays out.

Edit: I saw Joe's note that just came in while I was typing this. I'm not going to into any detail on the politics = religion thing other than to say that this is not a problem unique to one political party. I'm sure everybody is able to see this quite clearly when they look at the other tribe.

Bold statement here. My initial reaction here is "that's laughable" but you've sparked me to at least think on it.

Personally, I view religion as a natural part of the human condition in that it's the result and natural consequence of the otherwise basic yet very scary notion that death is finite and our lives really aren't all that meaningful. So, religion naturally springs from our innate need to want and explain "more." Therefore, I need to ponder whether society is worsened by the reduction of a very irrational yet emotionally helpful emotional safety net that religion gives us.

 

[Zow]

There seems to be a pretty tight correlation between what religion a person observes and the religion their parents follow. Maybe not 100%, but pretty darn close.

I'd suggest that matters. Very few people choose a religion; more often it is chosen for them. Again, there are exceptions, but the rule seems to be inculcation.

I got really into religion and took many classes on it in college and IIRC correctly the bold is very much supported by polling data and statistical studies.

 

[Zow]

My cousins were alter boys. Now they are crack heads. I voted good.

Counterpoint: I was an altar boy* and am not a crackhead.


*And was only ever inappropriately propositioned by a priest once.

 

[Scoresman]

I write this with all due respect, so hopefully I'm not writing it in a way that offends anyone. But as an atheist, I couldn't vote anything but this is a good thing. Even aside from the problems of organized religion (and leaving aside weighing the pros and cons), believing in knowledge over mysticism (for lack of a better term) is a good thing. It's an advancement of society to have beliefs grounded in evidence and not faith in things that are not true.

I realize people disagree with that take. But having society believe in the truth and not believe in untruths is good (I think). And as an atheist, that means less religion is good.

I agree with this. I think there's room for people to have a belief in a higher power. It can provide people with hope, motivation, purpose, etc. I think there's room for people to have these beliefs but also live their lives primarily driven by knowledge. There doesnt have to be a disconnect.

Religion becomes a problem when people start using it to do things like make medical decisions, tell people who they can marry, etc. Like someone said above me, stay in your lane.

 

[IvanKaramazov]

My cousins were alter boys. Now they are crack heads. I voted good.

Counterpoint: I was an altar boy* and am not a crackhead.

You sure lobbed that one slow and over the plate.

 

[PIK95]

My cousins were alter boys. Now they are crack heads. I voted good.

Counterpoint: I was an altar boy* and am not a crackhead.


*And was only ever inappropriately propositioned by a priest once.

I mean, they couldn't get everyone.

 

[Steeler]

I write this with all due respect, so hopefully I'm not writing it in a way that offends anyone. But as an atheist, I couldn't vote anything but this is a good thing. Even aside from the problems of organized religion (and leaving aside weighing the pros and cons), believing in knowledge over mysticism (for lack of a better term) is a good thing. It's an advancement of society to have beliefs grounded in evidence and not faith in things that are not true.

I realize people disagree with that take. But having society believe in the truth and not believe in untruths is good (I think). And as an atheist, that means less religion is good.

Have you seen the debate between Dawkins and Lennox about God? I've seen snippets and thought it was interesting. Not that it will change anyone's mind one way or the other.

 

[whoknew]

I write this with all due respect, so hopefully I'm not writing it in a way that offends anyone. But as an atheist, I couldn't vote anything but this is a good thing. Even aside from the problems of organized religion (and leaving aside weighing the pros and cons), believing in knowledge over mysticism (for lack of a better term) is a good thing. It's an advancement of society to have beliefs grounded in evidence and not faith in things that are not true.

I realize people disagree with that take. But having society believe in the truth and not believe in untruths is good (I think). And as an atheist, that means less religion is good.

Have you seen the debate between Dawkins and Lennox about God? I've seen snippets and thought it was interesting. Not that it will change anyone's mind one way or the other.

I haven't. But will look it up.

 

[The Commish]

I write this with all due respect, so hopefully I'm not writing it in a way that offends anyone. But as an atheist, I couldn't vote anything but this is a good thing. Even aside from the problems of organized religion (and leaving aside weighing the pros and cons), believing in knowledge over mysticism (for lack of a better term) is a good thing. It's an advancement of society to have beliefs grounded in evidence and not faith in things that are not true.

I realize people disagree with that take. But having society believe in the truth and not believe in untruths is good (I think). And as an atheist, that means less religion is good.

This is really the only thing I take issue with. Beliefs are things we hold on to or leaps we make beyond what evidence requires. If the thing you hold is grounded in evidence, it's a fact not a belief. I see this all the time, but think it's a pretty important distinction in terms.

 

[Sleestak]

Many/most of the various religions have problems with patriarchy. I never thought I'd say this, but I must be a feminist, because I think women should be encouraged to excel, speak up, and stand up for themselves. The decline of patriarchal religion is a win for girls and women.

I used to think organized religion was the problem. Now I tend to think that if there has to be religion, it should at least be organized. This is based on my observation of how some born-again folks have constructed their belief system and how they interact with others as a result. Mind you, I'm not tarring all of them.

Children shouldn't be exposed to religion until they are old enough to think for themselves. 16 or 18 years of age sounds about right. Anything earlier is indoctrination (grooming). Churches should have to earn it, and in being made to do so would be made to be better. Since the indoctrination of minors can't be halted legally, the general decline of religion is a win for children.

Overall, the decline of superstition if replaced with critical thought is a good thing (IMO), although the decline is understandably upsetting to believers. If the superstition is replaced with nihilism, nativism, narcissism, or other such crap (which is what is happening) then the decline of religion might actually be a bad thing. Which is a very sad state of affairs and waste of human potential. People shouldn't need a religious belief to keep them from being animals.

So I guess my answer is that the decline should be a good thing, but I suspect it is only neutral in the balance.

 

[Judge Smails]

Righteous Gemstones isn’t far off. I’m so turned off by the wealth flaunted from these mega pastors and churches. Some servants. I’m a Christian and believe that religion/spirituality is important, but it’s just big business now. Smaller churches can still be great.

 

[Psychopav]

So I've been looking at the rates of disaffiliation in the United States, where "disaffilation" is synonymous with "no religion." I was motivated to do so by a writer named Matt Yglesias, who has posited that a rapid change in societal mores has been the result of declining religious affiliation and piety.

On how great a scale has this disaffiliation happened and when did it happen, if it happened at all? Well, to quote the Pew Research Center, "In 1972, when the GSS first began asking Americans, “What is your religious preference?” 90% identified as Christian and 5% were religiously unaffiliated. In the next two decades, the share of “nones” crept up slowly, reaching 9% in 1993. But then disaffiliation started speeding up – in 1996, the share of unaffiliated Americans jumped to 12%, and two years later it was 14%. This growth has continued, and 29% of Americans now tell the GSS they have “no religion.”7

Pew Research Center has been measuring religious identity since 2007 using a slightly different question wording – “What is your present religion, if any?” – as well as a different set of response options. Since 2007, the percentage of adults who say they are atheist, agnostic or “nothing in particular” in the Center’s surveys has grown from 16% to 29%. During this time, the share of U.S. adults who identify as Christian has fallen from 78% to 63%."

So we've seen self-reported agnostic/atheist individuals increase from 1998 to 2023 from 15% to 30%, roughly, of all Americans.

What do you think this means for the Republic. Anything? Nothing?

I'd be interested to hear what this board thinks about the rapid loss of religion in private life.

What do you think/did you vote?

 

[Dinsy Ejotuz]

The world would be a safer place if we did not forgive but instead punished. People would fall in line with the civil norms.

Murder carried a straight death penalty almost everywhere at one point. By public hanging. If you were a man. And your murder wasn't part of a crime against the state (in which case you might be drawn and quartered). If you were a murderess you'd be burned to death.

A lot of researchers believe that the very existence of a court system and legal frameworks is a big driver of the 95%+ decline in murder since the middle ages. Even as use of the death penalty dropped to almost zero.

 

[Joe Bryant]

I write this with all due respect, so hopefully I'm not writing it in a way that offends anyone. But as an atheist, I couldn't vote anything but this is a good thing. Even aside from the problems of organized religion (and leaving aside weighing the pros and cons), believing in knowledge over mysticism (for lack of a better term) is a good thing. It's an advancement of society to have beliefs grounded in evidence and not faith in things that are not true.

I realize people disagree with that take. But having society believe in the truth and not believe in untruths is good (I think). And as an atheist, that means less religion is good.

Hi @whoknew Monday-Wednesday is always busy for me with Footballguys site stuff so I haven't had a chance to reply much. But wanted to:

1. Thank you for your kind tone. You're being the opposite of rude or offensive in how you express yourself here.
2. As a Christian, I may have a different opinion on this than you, but I'd say your position is not at all out of line with a lot of society and certainly in line as an atheist.

Thanks for sharing your insights.

 

[kupcho1]

Also, people need to be more aware of the genres of literature contained in the Bible.

Why?

Also, do people need to be more aware of the Quran?
The Book of Mormon (the 1830 book, not the 2011 play)?
The Veda?
The Tripitaka?

If not, why not?

And that goes for both believers and skeptics.

Believers? Sure. By why in the world do skeptics need to be more aware of these "genres"?

For example, if one reads Genesis 1 as if it's a historical narrative or a journalistic approach to the scientific facts of creation, it could lead to bad conclusions.

Could? I'd say it definitely does.

The believer might conclude that scientific discoveries are wrong when they contradict what they think is a historical telling of the creation events.

You can probably strike "might" from your contention. This happens. Sad but true.

The skeptic might conclude that it's all incorrect facts that must be ignored as nonsense that can't teach us some kind of truth.

And they'd be correct. Unless of course the skeptic in question believes in some other creed (e.g., Xenu, reincarnation, magic underwear).

As to "some kind of truth" what do you mean? The parables? Allegories for ...?

There's some decent stuff in the Bible (haven't read it cover-to-cover, but I've read a little): 10 Commandments (if you strike 1 through 3 you've got a pretty good rules of the road), Psalms (if you like poetry), Sermon on the Mount's not bad.
But I think people can get the same basic understanding of how to behave from a much shorter book or pamphlet. Bible could have used an editor.

 

[kupcho1]

As a Christian, I may have a different opinion on this than you

... and that's what makes this country great.

People can believe whatever they'd like. Or not believe. (Just don't proselytize in my direction please.)

 

[rockaction]

What do you think/did you vote?

I didn't vote, but I can't help but think that this has been a bad thing for America both morally and in terms of stability. With no central unifying theme, people are left to worship disparate things and have a different and non-unifying ethic driving their behaviors. Not only has monoculture died with technology, but religious culture is dying also. That's two big pillars that have fallen with one fell swoop -- and this has happened only in the past thirty years. Not only are we fragmented in our tastes in pursuits, but there is no unifying force for the body politic to agree upon.

I'd say society is much worse off for the absence of those two things. A shared culture might hold us together with a decreasing role for religion, but we have neither.

I think Nietzsche mourned the rationalist death of religion best in Europe a little before the turn of the 20th century. He posited that the death of God in the populace would lead to wars to end all wars. He announced that we had killed God and that we should be horrified at his death. That we had blood on our hands. I think something similar is happening in America. Given the history of 20th century Europe, the out-thereness yet striking accuracy of his prediction, and the resultant shocks that occurred, I don't think it bodes well for America.

 

[rockaction]

I should also say that on my way to the store daily I see the manifestation of tortured and anguished souls crying for help. I see the ear gauges, the body modifications, the tattoos, the personalized pain manifest on our very skin.

The skin of the unbeliever, for the most part, bears all of his damaged soul for the onlooker to note and be aware of. His outward manifestations of pain inform me regarding the quality of his life. His temperance shaky, his wherewithal shook, he rides with political and social causes announced on high -- for the world to notice.

His is a nightfall coming, the fascistic impulses growing ever harder, more marked, more able to be expressed without fear of reprisal by the community.

See it every day.

 

[the moops]

I should also say that on my way to the store daily I see the manifestation of tortured and anguished souls crying for help. I see the ear gauges, the body modifications, the tattoos, the personalized pain manifest on our very skin.

Or maybe they just like the way the tattoos and piercings look?

 

[rockaction]

Or maybe they just like the way the tattoos and piercings look?

Yeah, I don't really want to conflate the two too much, so I'll just leave it at what I said and not sidetrack the thread. It was more an aphorism than anything concrete. Take it how you will.

 

[Jayrod]

I have boatloads to say on the topic and not really any time to do so. Maybe tomorrow.

 

[Joe Bryant]

I do think the basic question is interesting and important for how the discussion might go.

Asking if something is good for society or good for America could be a different question than asking if something is good for the individual person. I suppose that gets into "common good" type things.

For this question, it seems best to keep it in the context of how it affects America. Is that what you're thinking @rockaction ?

 

[TLEF316]

So hard to say. Obviously there are many high profile examples of people doing horrible things in the name of religion....or horrible things happening in part BECAUSE of religion. But how many millions of people quietly lead better lives as a result of their place of worship, the positive actions it supports and the community it creates?

Me personally....raised Roman catholic but started drifting as a teen and never looked back (although i did attend a Jesuit college) From a practical perspective, my parents kinda stopped going when I was 12, as they were basically shunned after their divorce. That never sat right with me. Add in the priest abuse and other social stuff that this thread really isn't about .....and I just don't see the appeal anymore. Obviously plenty of people do and that's great for them.

So, voted neutral

 

[rockaction]

For this question, it seems best to keep it in the context of how it affects America. Is that what you're thinking @rockaction ?

That's a great point. Thanks for that. I think I might have veered a little off the subject with the aphoristic sort of non-logical discussion about outward manifestations of an individual without religion, and it conflates everything and makes a bad point, really.

I think discussing it in terms of how it affects America keeps it more in line with a macro or bird's-eye view rather than a personalized one. It'll likely foster better discussion and be less antagonistic between believers and non-believers.

I happen to be agnostic and I still think the loss of religion is a general net bad for America. The two aren't mutually exclusive and each position has a different set of premises, different evidentiary concerns, and a different conclusion.

eta* I think that the way you suggest keeps it more dispassionate and able to be discussed in a forum like this

 

[Yankee23Fan]

I write this with all due respect, so hopefully I'm not writing it in a way that offends anyone. But as an atheist, I couldn't vote anything but this is a good thing. Even aside from the problems of organized religion (and leaving aside weighing the pros and cons), believing in knowledge over mysticism (for lack of a better term) is a good thing. It's an advancement of society to have beliefs grounded in evidence and not faith in things that are not true.

I realize people disagree with that take. But having society believe in the truth and not believe in untruths is good (I think). And as an atheist, that means less religion is good.

This is another area where the church as a macro institution in the last 100 years or so, and the American version of Christianity specifically at the moment, has failed so miserably. The belief that science is the enemy of God is absurd. I don't know why my Christian brothers and sisters are falling into that trap and why, for everything holy, the church feeds it.

If we truly believe that there is a Creator God (and I do) then we must also believe that he created the very systems, and measurable events, causes and effects, that science measures, discovers and teaches. The anti-science God (at least for Christianity, I wouldn't speak for other religions) never existed. Shame on the church for feeding that particular lie to protect itself on some institutional basis, and shame on the pastors, priests, and congregants who spew that. When we wonder why people in the past 50 years are moving away from our church, this is one of the big ones. Any church that tells you to leave your brain at the door, ignore scientific truth and just accept your own ignorance covered in a blanket of faith for faith's sake isn't doing themselves or the collective church any favors.