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The investigation investigations: DOJ exonerates McCabe (3 Viewers)
- Thread starter BroadwayG
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moleculo
Footballguy
sho nuff
Footballguy
Yes...believe that errors were made.
Don't believe that those errors didn't affect the legitimacy of the investigation or bias. Don’t believe that the dossier was not the basis for the investigation.
sho nuff
Footballguy
dkp993
Footballguy
Dodds- welcome back to the PSF. I don’t always agree with your positions but its good to see you posting around here again.
timschochet
Footballguy
SaintsInDome2006
Footballguy
![[scooter]](/data/avatars/m/22/22287.jpg?1659477690){kind=avatar}
[scooter]
Footballguy
The shortest answer is: because he didn't commit a crime.How is that guy not in jail yet?Weird that Brennan lies under oath to Congress saying the dossier had no impact on the issue of the FISA warrant but he isn't charged with perjury. Roger Stone is charged with perjury for lying about emails and is facing prison.
The slightly longer answer is: because Trump and his DOJ have been unable to scrape together enough bits and pieces and shreds of pseudo-evidence to even charge him with a crime.
But the deeper answer is: because Brennan has been promoted as a boogeyman, just as Trump has promoted false narratives and promises about Hillary Clinton, James Comey, and numerous other people -- each time with grandiose promises of "Locking them up!", designed to resonate with and energize his supporters on an emotional level. And each time Trump fails to deliver on a promise, he simply shifts the attention to a new boogeyman, with all new promises and all new wishcasting.
We just saw it yesterday with the release of the Horowitz Report. Trump supporters had been anticipating that moment for almost two years, with Trump stoking their imaginations with vague promises all the way. They were absolutely certain that this was going to prove what they've believed all this time. ("You'll see," they fictitiously said. "You are in for a rude awakening"!!!!!) It was going to be, in its own way, The Big Reveal.
But as soon as Trump's supporters failed to get what they were expecting -- when Judgment Day didn't come -- Trump simply shifted their attention by offering them a new promise -- The Durham Report!! And when Durham fails to deliver what was promised, don't worry because the goalposts will simply be moved to a new location ("The Barr Report", anyone?). That's how these types of things work.
Dickies
Footballguy
RBM
Footballguy
RBM
Footballguy
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Mario Kart
Footballguy
Selective Reasoning runs rampant among Trump Supporters. It's like a disease that has yet to be eradicated.
Dickies
Footballguy
I was hoping when this was released it would put a lot of the rumors to rest one way or the other, but somehow like with the Mueller Report people read the same thing and have polar opposite reading comprehension.
Unlike the Mueller Report I have no desire to read this, but the summaries I’ve heard from respected journalists is that some corners were cut, but nothing was malicious.
Unlike the Mueller Report I have no desire to read this, but the summaries I’ve heard from respected journalists is that some corners were cut, but nothing was malicious.
timschochet
Footballguy
Sheriff Bart
Footballguy
I've been saying this for years now. Helluva a time to finally be right about something.
SaintsInDome2006
Footballguy
I enjoy the back and forth and I think you know that, so staying out of [all that]. I just wanted to make an observation after looking over a little of the report.
During the Mueller investigation there was discussion that Fisa applications were never Comey, Strzok, Page and McCabe huddled over files, penciling in boxes and filling in and erasing details. They're administrators. It takes scores of agents and lawyers to complete 4 Fisa's, each with multiple reapprovals each no less. And the guys who do the daily work are very aggressive, they are highly motivated Type-A personalities working on one thing for a long period of time. The administrators on the other hand are typically working on several things or at least more than one. The main picture that has been drawn from Trump & Co. is that of a vast cabal of top level elites forcing a politically biased result from up above. That's really not what the report reveals. There are problems, but the problems are really about the rank and file omitting and smudging over information that might have nicked away at the case, higher level lawyers and supervisors reviewing drafts and proposals pushing back and then getting more disclosure but mostly not knowing what the underlying agents further down were really drilling down on and doing. I think Clinesmith is the best example of that and I'm guessing he's not on the Trump scorecard. Another example is the Page application. Yes, yes everyone knows about the Steele piece, but what maybe you have not been told was that before the Steele info, likely sourced from work he had been doing for other clients, about Page's travel to Moscow, supervising agents at the FBI had denied requests or proposals to surveil Page. Same is true of Strzok, who apparently was militating for a slower, more patient investigation that did not burn sources or risk leaks in the middle of an election, which would have hurt Trump, against some agents who were arguing for a very aggressive ring the 5 bells alarm during 2016. Read the report, it's the rank and file that come across as sloppy much more than the administrators.
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Mario Kart
Footballguy
SaintsInDome2006
Footballguy
Pettiness. Can't blame him. Maybe The Power That Be should've thought of that. And there are almost certainly other national security matters that guys like Comey and Brennan will likely be asked to recollect, but nah.
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SaintsInDome2006
Footballguy
Special Study of NSA Controls to Comply with Signals Intelligence Retention Requirements
- The iG for the NSA has found problems with the collection of signals intelligence. The minimization concerns are similar to what the DOJ IG found and pretty much of the same sort.
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ren hoek
Footballguy
I really don’t get it. A political campaign, its affiliates, and the President himself were defamed as traitors to their country- for years!- based on faulty information. Based in large part on a bogus document that never should have been laundered through the media, or given the weight of serious federal authorities. What other explanation is there for that, other than malice and staggering incompetence?
If you think it’s just about defending Trump, you are wrong. This damaged the media’s credibility, and it damaged the public trust in law enforcement institutions. The longer they pretend everything was normal and everyone did a good job, the worse this polarization between the public and the media/federal authorities gets.
Civil libertarians have had problems with FBI procedures for a long time, and this confirms their worst fears. The FBI defrauded a court that was already designed to rubberstamp their worst inclinations. We need a new Church Committee, we need a serious discussion about the potential for abuse by these intelligence agencies, and we need it now.
If you think it’s just about defending Trump, you are wrong. This damaged the media’s credibility, and it damaged the public trust in law enforcement institutions. The longer they pretend everything was normal and everyone did a good job, the worse this polarization between the public and the media/federal authorities gets.
Civil libertarians have had problems with FBI procedures for a long time, and this confirms their worst fears. The FBI defrauded a court that was already designed to rubberstamp their worst inclinations. We need a new Church Committee, we need a serious discussion about the potential for abuse by these intelligence agencies, and we need it now.
ren hoek
Footballguy
Yeah- reporters that made careers out of peddling the TrumpRussia scam, and their anonymous spook sources.
Henry Ford
Footballguy
ren hoek
Footballguy
Henry Ford
Footballguy
ren hoek
Footballguy
https://twitter.com/douthatnyt/status/1205128069700304896
Reading @charlie_savage on the FISA failures (link), it seems like the incompetence defense - "it shows the process is always bad, not that they were politically motivated" - doesn't distinguish sufficiently btw two different ways of being "motivated."
There's "motivation" in the sense suggested by the president and some of his allies, where ppl in the FBI were supposedly *consciously* cooking up bogus intel in order to frame POTUS and his advisers. That always seemed implausible, and the report confirms its implausibility.
But there's also "motivation" in the sense of "motivated reasoning" -- reasoning that assumes guilt and cherry-picks around that assumption. That's what civil liberties ppl assume happens too often with, say, Muslims under FBI scrutiny. And it seems like what happened here.
Meaning: If you had a case where the FBI built a FISA application around implausible intel bc they wanted to surveil a mosque, you wouldn't necessarily call it a frame-up, but you also wouldn't call it just a bureaucratic accident.
You would say that a somewhat paranoid assumption of Muslim guilt led to highly credulous police work by agents easily taken in by hyped-up intel from dubious sources. Not a frame-up, but a motivated-reasoning fiasco.
And that's what happened here, seemingly: Agents became caught up in the wild Steele dossier narrative and the general establishment paranoia about Trump that they made bad choices -- not dishonestly, but credulously.
So if this indicts the whole system, it indicts it for paranoid credulity ... and if the FBI was swamped by paranoid credulity about Manchurian-Trump then they *did* effectively have anti-Trump motivations. Just not the simplistic and evil ones suggested by, well, Trump himself.
Reading @charlie_savage on the FISA failures (link), it seems like the incompetence defense - "it shows the process is always bad, not that they were politically motivated" - doesn't distinguish sufficiently btw two different ways of being "motivated."
There's "motivation" in the sense suggested by the president and some of his allies, where ppl in the FBI were supposedly *consciously* cooking up bogus intel in order to frame POTUS and his advisers. That always seemed implausible, and the report confirms its implausibility.
But there's also "motivation" in the sense of "motivated reasoning" -- reasoning that assumes guilt and cherry-picks around that assumption. That's what civil liberties ppl assume happens too often with, say, Muslims under FBI scrutiny. And it seems like what happened here.
Meaning: If you had a case where the FBI built a FISA application around implausible intel bc they wanted to surveil a mosque, you wouldn't necessarily call it a frame-up, but you also wouldn't call it just a bureaucratic accident.
You would say that a somewhat paranoid assumption of Muslim guilt led to highly credulous police work by agents easily taken in by hyped-up intel from dubious sources. Not a frame-up, but a motivated-reasoning fiasco.
And that's what happened here, seemingly: Agents became caught up in the wild Steele dossier narrative and the general establishment paranoia about Trump that they made bad choices -- not dishonestly, but credulously.
So if this indicts the whole system, it indicts it for paranoid credulity ... and if the FBI was swamped by paranoid credulity about Manchurian-Trump then they *did* effectively have anti-Trump motivations. Just not the simplistic and evil ones suggested by, well, Trump himself.
Zow
Footballguy
Zow
Footballguy
Amused to Death
Footballguy
Advance and Deny. Bring the issue into public awareness without a side on it. Discuss the issue with media by speculating on what others are saying, reporting, or thinking about the issue, whether they are or not, using unverifiable sources, such as YouTube, Twitter, and other internet news stories, as references. Conspiracy theories are useful for presenting issues, since the lack of real evidence to support them serves only to further the deepening of the conspiracy.Trying to resist pizzagate joke...
Create Suspense. Announce to the media that the important evidence regarding the issue will soon be revealed.
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2 reasons why I won't be voting Republican nationally anymore, unless something fundamental changes.
ren hoek
Footballguy
Dickies
Footballguy
Widbil83
Footballguy
BladeRunner
Footballguy
I can't wait for THIS report to come out but, to be honest, I'm not expecting anything to happen to anyone. Basically, it's going to be embarrassing for some people but that's about it.
No one is being held accountable for anything and it will be business as usual. "Draining the swamp" means holding people accountable for their actions and when you pass on charging or indicting them then that just reaffirms that they can get away with it time and time again.
Well, one guy is being held accountable but it's because he's being railroaded, in my opinion.
SaintsInDome2006
Footballguy
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Dinsy Ejotuz
Footballguy
More vaguely worded or unclear language that they can use to gin up additional confusion?
The Z Machine
Footballguy
Very interesting. Which of the 4? Was the first and second one ok, but then they didn't have enough probable cause to re-up the warrant? I.e. the gov't had exculpatory evidence they didn't submit?
I'd like for the government to get reigned in on warrants like this.
I'd like for the government to get reigned in on warrants like this.
Max Power
Footballguy
It was the 3rd and 4th that were not valid. 1 and 2 are still being reviewed. I think the initial has the best shot at being valid.
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