The Kicker - Why do we include them on rosters? (1 Viewer)

[whitewizard]

i am sorry for the personal slight, but you have not made things very easy to debate.

i have raised a point about a bonus system for kickers, i have proven how adding a extra flex position would ADD MORE LUCK to a game, i have made attempts to improve the kicker position so that there is less luck involved.

you say you want the luck gone, fine how do you want to do that? there are ideas and methods that can be tried rather than simply eliminating the position. if you want to eliminate the luck element, try and stay to 1 or 2 receivers, because a 3rd wide receiver (player depending of course) is just as likely to get 0 as he is 8. i have tried to show how there is a difference between the ok and the good kickers, and have come up with ideas on how to accentuate that performance.

i do not mind debating but all you have said is that you want the luck gone. what has really bothered me is that you have had no positive input or discussion on the ideas. i have not contested the fact that kickers are random or "entirely based on luck". i have made suggestions on how to modify the system, you have said it is all based on luck. i have asked MANY times how you want the luck gone, you say there is no consistent difference between kickers week to week.

if you just want to eliminate the position fine, but do not say i have not brought ANY relevent facts to the arguement. for a while part of the arguement was that regular players would do a better job than a kicker by using a extra flex position, and that fantasy football is largely based on skill not luck. my facts were trying to prove other positions were based on luck like kickers. it was bad luck brady went out the entire season, it was good luck slaton came out of nowhere, it was good luck the year before when ryan grant came out of nowhere along with earnest graham, good players like clinton portis, and reggie wayne can be outscored be kickers. The "IF" part of my arguement was an effort to show that there is a quantifiable difference in performance between kickers.

now you want more emphasis on facts detailing the difference between kickers, well that is not very tangible. again i have shown stats amongst kickers that show there is a difference in performance, and that having the best kicker does make a difference. although that was one of the reasons for my "IF" arguement was that a better scoring system would better accentuate that performance and show a larger gap between good kickers and bad; and a improved scoring system would help with that week to week difference you are looking for.

also on your picking a kicker is all about luck; again fine but there are only so many quality kickers to chose from and they only have 1 way to make points. QBs would go through similiar turmoil if they did not have 30 chances to score every way possible. i have made suggestions on scoring systems, and brought different ideas to be discussed to make selecting and predicting kickers an accomplishable AND fruitful task. you can avoid the question and say "but there is no IF" and keep saying "i do not get it"; but until you actually contribute to the ideas that have been discussed such as my scoring system, or creating a special teams position to draft..

your biggest contribution has been that..

YOU WANT THE LUCK GONE!!!!

 

[⚡DEADHEAD⚡]

Well we did get rid of the kicker this year and a subsequent polling of most owners, not one has said the he misses the kicker. All are pleased that we got rid of the position. Personally, I haven't missed it a bit.

 

[fsufan]

had a game in one of my leagues last week that come down to kickers. one owner was up 2 PTs and both owners just had their kickers left. the kicker of the owner that was down outscored the other kicker by 3 PTs. never seen a FF game come down to 2 kickers on MNF

 

[BeTheMatch]

Tried to get rid of both defenses and kickers last year. Got rid of defenses, but kickers were spared. But after no one missed defenses at all this year, we have already voted to eliminate kickers next year.

 

[DropKick]

Tried to get rid of both defenses and kickers last year. Got rid of defenses, but kickers were spared. But after no one missed defenses at all this year, we have already voted to eliminate kickers next year.

TE's year after that?

 

[Northbound Train]

Maybe the NFL should just eliminate that position as well

 

[Instinctive]

Maybe the NFL should just eliminate that position as well

This isn't the NFL. We don't use punters or OLinemen either.

 

[Hoss_Cartwright]

Maybe the NFL should just eliminate that position as well

This isn't the NFL. We don't use punters or OLinemen either.

I've been trying to get those bozos in my leagues to drop the kicker but they won't Hard headed sonsabeotches.

 

[footballnerd]

Because they put points on the board in real life. What's more valuable? Yards or points?

 

[whitewizard]

it is me your favorite nemesis of this stupid idea. actually you can use punters, and you can even make the kickers more valuable. problem with kickers compared to other positions as i have said earlier they don't get the attempts like other positions do to separate themselves from the rest of the group. that is why you can give a bonus for game tying/winning FGs and try other things to make each attempt more valuable. your point i know "they don't that is the point i don't want to base it off luck."

my idea just try something different the best idea i have come up with is split defense and special teams give points for punt return yards, kick return yards, net punt yards for the punter, point for touchbacks and punting into the 5 yard line. as for kickers bonus for completions after x amount made, and bonus for GW/GT FGs.

this eliminates the "luck" and forces people to research the defenses and special teams.

it seems a shame to eliminate an entire position that scores better than most WRs that sit on our bench just because we can't figure out how to gauge their production year in and year out.

 

[golfguy]

dropped them years ago. happy about it. would never go back.

 

[SSOG]

Well we did get rid of the kicker this year and a subsequent polling of most owners, not one has said the he misses the kicker. All are pleased that we got rid of the position. Personally, I haven't missed it a bit.

My dynasty league is in its third year. Our original charter/rulebook is an 82 point document outlining absolutely every conceivable situation that might arise (those 82 points don't even cover the scoring rules). Point #2 reads as follows:"- We will not be using placekickers. Placekickers suck."As far as I can tell, everyone so far loves being able to use roster spots on real players.

 

[Trig2U]

Maybe the NFL should just eliminate that position as well

This isn't the NFL. We don't use punters or OLinemen either.

Maybe not, but isn't the basic idea of fantasy football to model actual pro football as closely as possible? If somebody could come up with a way to evaluate punters or return specialists or O-lines statistically I'd have no problem factoring the contributions of those positions into the equation. It's all part of the game.I can see how some are frustrated by the unpredictability of kickers, but so are a lot of NFL coaches.

 

[Trig2U]

Well we did get rid of the kicker this year and a subsequent polling of most owners, not one has said the he misses the kicker. All are pleased that we got rid of the position. Personally, I haven't missed it a bit.

My dynasty league is in its third year. Our original charter/rulebook is an 82 point document outlining absolutely every conceivable situation that might arise (those 82 points don't even cover the scoring rules). Point #2 reads as follows:"- We will not be using placekickers. Placekickers suck."As far as I can tell, everyone so far loves being able to use roster spots on real players.

That's great except for one thing: Like it or not, Kickers actually are "real" NFL players.

 

[Trig2U]

it is me your favorite nemesis of this stupid idea. actually you can use punters, and you can even make the kickers more valuable. problem with kickers compared to other positions as i have said earlier they don't get the attempts like other positions do to separate themselves from the rest of the group. that is why you can give a bonus for game tying/winning FGs and try other things to make each attempt more valuable. your point i know "they don't that is the point i don't want to base it off luck." my idea just try something different the best idea i have come up with is split defense and special teams give points for punt return yards, kick return yards, net punt yards for the punter, point for touchbacks and punting into the 5 yard line. as for kickers bonus for completions after x amount made, and bonus for GW/GT FGs. this eliminates the "luck" and forces people to research the defenses and special teams. it seems a shame to eliminate an entire position that scores better than most WRs that sit on our bench just because we can't figure out how to gauge their production year in and year out.

Now *this* seems sensible to me. The fantasy solution for kickers should be like it is for every other NFL position: minimize luck and try to model performance and skill in as realistic a way as possible. And I think it would be cool to factor in punters and return specialists, assuming you could do it in a relatively simple and accurate way. Both positions play a pretty significant role in NFL games.

 

[UTLonghorn31]

Those that want to eliminate kickers do so because they are too lazy to do analysis (so they call it "luck").

Analysis includes offense of said team, defense of other team... how well do they operate in the redzone? What has the kicker done for various distance ranges? (strong leg or never going to kick 50+ yarders). What are third down conversions like? Kicker accuracy? Analyze a game and conditions... see the big picture and don't blame it on luck because of your failure to do analysis.

Kickers aren't luck... they are a chance for me to build a cushion further on my opponent.

=========

With defenses, there is a formula to use that will give you an edge over someone that selected a top defense. I have scored the most points out of the defense position by taking the top rated defense playing at home vs a bottom ranked offense (after the affects of injuries/matchups) until I made the playoffs so I grabbed what I want to use there so I could have them early. I have a 3-4 point advantage every week on average from the defense and a 2-3 point advantage every week with the kicker. That is a touchdown that my opponent has to make up between the two. It is the difference between a 23-5 two year record (15-1 after week 6 where trends are better formed) and something worse, because believe it or not, the only objective is to outscore the opponent every week so you can give up a close one or you can take it with analysis. Don't blame it on the kicker or the defense, because they didn't start themselves, YOU made the decision to start them over all the other options available to you.

Don't be afraid to ask questions or get information from reliable sources... personally, I will ask questions of Sigmund and Bloom and follow FantasyGuru and take both plus my own thoughts and combine them together to make educated decisions as it pertains to drafts, roster moves, starts, positioning, blocking/weakening of opponents, etc. Fantasy Football is an analysis game so if you want to win, analyze. It is also great for enhancing critical thinking skills in other areas of life too.

 

[SaintsInDome2006]

Keep `em.

They're fun.

And unpredictable.

Nothing like winning on a 50+ yard kick when all else seems lost.

Also requires owners to be totally thorough.

 

[FreeBaGeL]

Keep `em.They're fun.And unpredictable.Nothing like winning on a 50+ yard kick when all else seems lost.Also requires owners to be totally thorough.

Why don't we just include dice rolls as an extra position while we're at it?

 

[SaintsInDome2006]

Well, why not?

Craps is a pretty fun game and some people do do better at it than others.

I have to choose between Jennings and Maclin tomorrow, tellin' me that ain't a roll o' the dice?

 

[Neil Beaufort Zod]

I'd much rather eliminate the luck of a random schedule than a kicker. All-play is way, way better imo.

Besides that, in many leagues kickers are separated by more than a point or two. Just as we award points per reception (making two guys with the same yardage totals score differently) many leagues award kicking distance bonuses, etc.

I think there's a bit of strategy to choosing a kicker and I like when teams just pick one in the last round and give no thought to it. Just like NFL teams who cut a veteran kicker to save a few bucks...and then miss the playoffs by one game after losing three games by a field-goal or less, fantasy teams often lose close games and moss the playoffs where a kicker could have made a difference.

Yes, I like good kickers on high-powered offenses with dome games on the schedule-- and I'd rather have one than a WR7 I'll never start. I understand that conventional wisdom is that kickers are useless, and that's a good reason to believe they're useful. In every 12-team league, 11 teams end up losers. Why be too conventional?

 

[Neil Beaufort Zod]

Keep `em.They're fun.And unpredictable.Nothing like winning on a 50+ yard kick when all else seems lost.Also requires owners to be totally thorough.

Why don't we just include dice rolls as an extra position while we're at it?

If you play a head-to-head schedule you're not only adding in the equivalent of a dice roll, but you're letting it determine who makes the playoffs.

 

[SSOG]

Well we did get rid of the kicker this year and a subsequent polling of most owners, not one has said the he misses the kicker. All are pleased that we got rid of the position. Personally, I haven't missed it a bit.

My dynasty league is in its third year. Our original charter/rulebook is an 82 point document outlining absolutely every conceivable situation that might arise (those 82 points don't even cover the scoring rules). Point #2 reads as follows:"- We will not be using placekickers. Placekickers suck."As far as I can tell, everyone so far loves being able to use roster spots on real players.

That's great except for one thing: Like it or not, Kickers actually are "real" NFL players.

They don't tackle, they don't get tackled, they don't advance the ball, they don't prevent the ball from being advanced. They perform an arbitrary action that bears no relation to anything else in the game.

Those that want to eliminate kickers do so because they are too lazy to do analysis (so they call it "luck"). Analysis includes offense of said team, defense of other team... how well do they operate in the redzone? What has the kicker done for various distance ranges? (strong leg or never going to kick 50+ yarders). What are third down conversions like? Kicker accuracy? Analyze a game and conditions... see the big picture and don't blame it on luck because of your failure to do analysis.Kickers aren't luck... they are a chance for me to build a cushion further on my opponent.

If kickers aren't luck, then why do they show far less correlation from year to year and from week to week than other positions? Why is there less correlation between "expert rankings" and end-of-year ranks? Heck, if picking kickers is a skill, explain why there's essentially no year-to-year correlation in a kicker's own FG%. Just look at Adam Vinatieri- from 2001 to 2007, Vin's FG% went from 80%, to 90%, to 74%, to 94%, to 80%, to 89%, to 79%? How could anyone do their homework and predict how Vinatieri would do with that kind of year-to-year inconsistency? And this is to say nothing of game-to-game inconsistency. The kicker is the only player on the field who simply cannot, through any talent or ability of his own, create statistics for himself. He's wholly dependent on the whims of players on a completely different unit. You can't scout a kicker, you can't do your homework to find the most talented kickers in the league and then just draft them, because talent is wholly unrelated to fantasy production for a kicker. Which, more than anything, is why I don't like kickers. At least with most offensive players, talent roughly correlates with production (or, at the very least, it's part of the equation).

 

[RebelINS]

I'd love to be in a league sans kicker, I've been trying to convince ongoing leagues to do it but it hasn't happened yet. Kickers are a pain in FFB.

 

[theswami]

As someone who bothers to manage the kicker position I say leave it in. Year after year owners draft kickers early and "set it and forget it." I for one draft kickers late and monitor the waiver wire for the hot kicker.

This year I started with Tynes in most leagues and now running out the post-Vince Young Brionas. It is a huge win for me Owners look at total points when looking for waiver wire pick-ups and sometimes ignore trends.

Leave the kicker alone. Those of us who invest a little time into FF need to keep advantages that websites and magazines cannot provide.

 

[Franknbeans]

starting kickers just adds to the discomfort that is fantasy football

 

[meatwad1]

you ever lose a FF game b/c your opponent's kick scored like 15 PTs.

You ever lose a fantasy game because Dodds had Randy Moss at #1 and he only scored 6 points?

 

[Liquid Tension]

Well we did get rid of the kicker this year and a subsequent polling of most owners, not one has said the he misses the kicker. All are pleased that we got rid of the position. Personally, I haven't missed it a bit.

My dynasty league is in its third year. Our original charter/rulebook is an 82 point document outlining absolutely every conceivable situation that might arise (those 82 points don't even cover the scoring rules). Point #2 reads as follows:"- We will not be using placekickers. Placekickers suck."As far as I can tell, everyone so far loves being able to use roster spots on real players.

My only point is that many people try to use PPR to even out positions. Noting the luck factor with kickers, why do people want to even out positions value? It is OK for positions to have different values. I would surely not add a bonus to FG kicker, but the normal methodology overrates kickers a little bit. I think the key is to subtract for FG's missed for anything under 40 yards and if you want to say a miss form 35-40 is -1 and 30-35 is -2 and below 30 is -3, it rewards the better kickers and also reduces their overall impact.

 

[North]

We (my league) have been trying to get rid of kickers for 2 years but have been unable to come up with a conscientious on who to replace them with.

Kickers are nothing but a crap shoot. Your leading scorer from the year before is rarely near the top the next year, and the person lucky enough to draft the right kicker usually has an advantage over others.

 

[BeTheMatch]

it is me your favorite nemesis of this stupid idea. actually you can use punters, and you can even make the kickers more valuable. problem with kickers compared to other positions as i have said earlier they don't get the attempts like other positions do to separate themselves from the rest of the group. that is why you can give a bonus for game tying/winning FGs and try other things to make each attempt more valuable. your point i know "they don't that is the point i don't want to base it off luck."

my idea just try something different the best idea i have come up with is split defense and special teams give points for punt return yards, kick return yards, net punt yards for the punter, point for touchbacks and punting into the 5 yard line. as for kickers bonus for completions after x amount made, and bonus for GW/GT FGs.

this eliminates the "luck" and forces people to research the defenses and special teams.

it seems a shame to eliminate an entire position that scores better than most WRs that sit on our bench just because we can't figure out how to gauge their production year in and year out.

 

[theswami]

If kickers aren't luck, then why do they show far less correlation from year to year and from week to week than other positions? Why is there less correlation between "expert rankings" and end-of-year ranks? Heck, if picking kickers is a skill, explain why there's essentially no year-to-year correlation in a kicker's own FG%. Just look at Adam Vinatieri- from 2001 to 2007, Vin's FG% went from 80%, to 90%, to 74%, to 94%, to 80%, to 89%, to 79%? How could anyone do their homework and predict how Vinatieri would do with that kind of year-to-year inconsistency? And this is to say nothing of game-to-game inconsistency. The kicker is the only player on the field who simply cannot, through any talent or ability of his own, create statistics for himself. He's wholly dependent on the whims of players on a completely different unit. You can't scout a kicker, you can't do your homework to find the most talented kickers in the league and then just draft them, because talent is wholly unrelated to fantasy production for a kicker. Which, more than anything, is why I don't like kickers. At least with most offensive players, talent roughly correlates with production (or, at the very least, it's part of the equation).

You raise a good point and the reason why I want the kickers to stay.

Draft day is important but managing the team is also important to fielding a winner. Too many years did I draft the best team on paper and had little time for team management and ended up with an average team.

Year after year I try to draft the best kicker I can and in most years I pick up a guy off the wire who plays on a team with a good offense that just cannot get the ball into the end zone.

 

[gsmayes]

As someone who bothers to manage the kicker position I say leave it in. Year after year owners draft kickers early and "set it and forget it." I for one draft kickers late and monitor the waiver wire for the hot kicker.This year I started with Tynes in most leagues and now running out the post-Vince Young Brionas. It is a huge win for me Owners look at total points when looking for waiver wire pick-ups and sometimes ignore trends.Leave the kicker alone. Those of us who invest a little time into FF need to keep advantages that websites and magazines cannot provide.

Same here, Tynes while the Giants couldn't score a red zone TD (now they just plain can't score) and now Bironas. I don't know why Bironas isn't getting more love in the kicker rankings, he's scored 10+ points in my league every week since VY took over. In leagues that award extra points for distance he is MONEY!

 

[Crazy8s]

Get rid of kickers....why! They add to the equation.

We don't try to waterdown our league, infact we are trying to add more positions. We switched from team defense to IDPs last year...AWESOME. we also extended our flex postion to kickers also. So you can start 2 kickers if you want.

 

[DropKick]

We (my league) have been trying to get rid of kickers for 2 years but have been unable to come up with a conscientious on who to replace them with.

Kickers are nothing but a crap shoot. Your leading scorer from the year before is rarely near the top the next year, and the person lucky enough to draft the right kicker usually has an advantage over others.

Isn't this true about fantasy football in general? I don't buy the crap shoot argument. Aren't some kickers more accurate than others? Don't some have a longer leg? Don't some play on good offenses and others poor? Don't some play in domes or fair weather cities?

This is much to do about nothing. Sure, kickers have some variability but how wacky is your scoring system so that it becomes a problem?

 

[DropKick]

They don't tackle, they don't get tackled, they don't advance the ball, they don't prevent the ball from being advanced. They perform an arbitrary action that bears no relation to anything else in the game.

A good percentage of plays involve the special teams and is the basis for field position. A lot of in-game strategy hinges on a team's capability in this facet of the game.Arbitrary? No relation to the rest of the game? Really?

 

[DropKick]

As far as I can tell, everyone so far loves being able to use roster spots on real players.

You say this as if kickers actually kept other players out of the line-up. Your leagues line-up requirements don't hinge on the decision to use a kicker.

 

[bagger]

Kickers in fantasy are lame. Little more than a function of the offense, often a crap-shoot and a fantasy-draft afterthought. Kickers take up valuable space in fantasy magazines, albeit the last section in every one, and the topic of least discussion in forums and among pals on draft day. It's time to get rid of the kicker.

so go ahead. nothing is stopping you.

 

[Mookie Blaylock]

Why not combine them with the DST? If you have the Ravens DST, you also get the kicking points in a given week.

 

[fsufan]

you ever lose a FF game b/c your opponent's kick scored like 15 PTs.

You ever lose a fantasy game because Dodds had Randy Moss at #1 and he only scored 6 points?

 

[SSOG]

We (my league) have been trying to get rid of kickers for 2 years but have been unable to come up with a conscientious on who to replace them with.

Kickers are nothing but a crap shoot. Your leading scorer from the year before is rarely near the top the next year, and the person lucky enough to draft the right kicker usually has an advantage over others.

Isn't this true about fantasy football in general? I don't buy the crap shoot argument. Aren't some kickers more accurate than others? Don't some have a longer leg? Don't some play on good offenses and others poor? Don't some play in domes or fair weather cities?

This is much to do about nothing. Sure, kickers have some variability but how wacky is your scoring system so that it becomes a problem?

No. There is almost no correlation between a kicker's accuracy from year to year.

They don't tackle, they don't get tackled, they don't advance the ball, they don't prevent the ball from being advanced. They perform an arbitrary action that bears no relation to anything else in the game.

A good percentage of plays involve the special teams and is the basis for field position. A lot of in-game strategy hinges on a team's capability in this facet of the game.Arbitrary? No relation to the rest of the game? Really?

I'm speaking strictly of placekicking, not special teams as a whole. And yes, placekicking is arbitrary. It is the only play in the entire game in which the team makes no effort to either advance the ball or the clock. It is the only play in the entire game where the offense intentionally downs the ball without the play ending. It's completely arbitrary. It'd be like in basketball if, after every basket, play stopped and the shooter bowled a frame, and if he made a strike or a spare his team would get a bonus point.

 

[whitewizard]

the lack of variance between kickers comes from the lack of attempts.

WRs can expereince 100+ difference in targets between the #3 WR and the #30 WR. the #1 kicker usually only has a difference between 9-13 FGA between him and the #30 kicker.

that is why i liked the idea of making a special teams unit, and giving bonus's to the kickers who are more accurate, dependable, and on better teams, because there is a difference between the good ones and the bad.

the idea they are based off whims of other players works just as well for QBs and RBs. if brady and manning switched WRs their careers would be totally different. give peterson the lions oline and i guarantee his production drops hard. granted you can measure these things much better and predict more accurately but the other positions are just as dependent on their supporting crew as kickers.

most people who don't want a kicker are convinced they are the scourge of all their fantasy woes and that they are a gray hair on their super model. my points are more for those who are not leading a witch hunt against kickers and are looking for new ways to improve their league.

 

[SSOG]

the idea they are based off whims of other players works just as well for QBs and RBs. if brady and manning switched WRs their careers would be totally different. give peterson the lions oline and i guarantee his production drops hard. granted you can measure these things much better and predict more accurately but the other positions are just as dependent on their supporting crew as kickers.

No, they are not. There is no position in the entire sport of fantasy football that is anywhere NEAR as dependent on his teammates to put up fantasy points.Look at it this way- better QBs generally score more points than worse QBs. Better RBs score more points than worse RBs. Better WRs score more points than worse WRs. If a player improves, the amount he scores goes up. There is a correlation between talent and scoring, and an improvement in play results in an improvement in production. Now look at kickers. Which do you think correlates more strongly to kicker production- the kicker's talent, or the talent of the offense around him? If a PK works really hard every day to become more accurate, is that going to improve his offense's ability to get the ball into the opposing team's red zone? If a PK is the clutchest kicker in the history of football, is that going to increase his offense's chance of stalling out in the red zone without scoring? Is there *ANYTHING* a kicker can do to increase his number of opportunities? I'd argue that there's really not, outside of possibly adding another 5 yards of range (which might result in 1-2 more kicks a year, tops). A kicker's scoring opportunities are completely and totally out of his own control. No other position on the field suffers from that same curse.

 

[Chaka]

Maybe the NFL should just eliminate that position as well

This isn't the NFL. We don't use punters or OLinemen either.

You don't?Good Lord! I'm posting with amateurs.

 

[⚡DEADHEAD⚡]

Kickers in fantasy are lame. Little more than a function of the offense, often a crap-shoot and a fantasy-draft afterthought. Kickers take up valuable space in fantasy magazines, albeit the last section in every one, and the topic of least discussion in forums and among pals on draft day. It's time to get rid of the kicker.

so go ahead. nothing is stopping you.

Well, we did. I wrote that more than a year ago.

 

[DropKick]

I'm speaking strictly of placekicking, not special teams as a whole. And yes, placekicking is arbitrary. It is the only play in the entire game in which the team makes no effort to either advance the ball or the clock. It is the only play in the entire game where the offense intentionally downs the ball without the play ending. It's completely arbitrary. It'd be like in basketball if, after every basket, play stopped and the shooter bowled a frame, and if he made a strike or a spare his team would get a bonus point.

What is wrong with trying to score? A good deal of the game is spent trying to get close enough to the endzone for the FG attempt. And teams don't have to kick an extra point. The can always go for two... a very interesting part of NFL rules & strategy.

 

[SSOG]

I'm speaking strictly of placekicking, not special teams as a whole. And yes, placekicking is arbitrary. It is the only play in the entire game in which the team makes no effort to either advance the ball or the clock. It is the only play in the entire game where the offense intentionally downs the ball without the play ending. It's completely arbitrary. It'd be like in basketball if, after every basket, play stopped and the shooter bowled a frame, and if he made a strike or a spare his team would get a bonus point.

What is wrong with trying to score? A good deal of the game is spent trying to get close enough to the endzone for the FG attempt. And teams don't have to kick an extra point. The can always go for two... a very interesting part of NFL rules & strategy.

There's nothing wrong with it. I have no problem with placekickers in real NFL football (I agree that they add a large degree of strategy, and an even larger degree of suspense). I have a problem with them in fantasy football, because I view them as more random chance than skill. I also recognize that the whole placekicking rule set is incredibly arbitrary.

 

[whitewizard]

yeah fine that did not come out very well i was trying to point out that every other player type is very dependent on his teammates. reggie wayne would still be good but no where near as good if akili smith was heaving the ball to him instead of payton. if i was the center for the vikings i would bring that offense to a screeching halt. kickers are much more dependent on their offense, but the difference between peterson and a RB drafted in the 3rd/4th round has more to do with his oline and the passing game than most would think.

after that not much else to say. don't like the kickers? try a different rule set. still don't like them at least you tried. don't want to try anything different? that seems unusually stubborn but if you and your league want it that way whatever floats your boat.

i like kickers, i think they have a valuable place on my roster, and i believe they add to the game. those are my opinions you won't be able to change them like i have not been able to change yours

 

[Neil Beaufort Zod]

I'm really surprised to see that people are eager to get rid of the "luck" of kickers, but are fine with playing head-to-head schedule where the random schedule usually determines which teams are in the playoffs and which ones are not. If I can take your playoff teams, play with their schedule and have them miss the playoffs (and do the reverse with teams that missed the playoffs), your whole league is based on luck.

Nothing wrong with playing the way you want to play, of course. But railing against the luck factor of kickers while your season's fortunes are determined by a randomly-generated schedule is kind of funny, no? I mean, aren't you failing to address the single-biggest luck element in your league? You can't use luck as an argument and advocate basing your entire league on it at the same time.

IOW, leave the lil kickers alone!

 

[SSOG]

I'm really surprised to see that people are eager to get rid of the "luck" of kickers, but are fine with playing head-to-head schedule where the random schedule usually determines which teams are in the playoffs and which ones are not. If I can take your playoff teams, play with their schedule and have them miss the playoffs (and do the reverse with teams that missed the playoffs), your whole league is based on luck.Nothing wrong with playing the way you want to play, of course. But railing against the luck factor of kickers while your season's fortunes are determined by a randomly-generated schedule is kind of funny, no? I mean, aren't you failing to address the single-biggest luck element in your league? You can't use luck as an argument and advocate basing your entire league on it at the same time.IOW, leave the lil kickers alone!

Who said everyone was fine with head to head? This is a thread about getting rid of kickers, not a thread about getting rid of kickers but keeping head to head. Someone could easily want to do away with both, it's just that most people wouldn't bother posting about the second because, you know, the second is not the slightest bit relevant to the thread.Besides, the head to head schedule happens to offer advantages to go with the increased luck. It makes for much more lively trash talk, and dramatically increases suspense and interest in the league. Kickers, on the other hand, don't really offer any advantages to offset the luck element. I've played in All-Play leagues and thought "man, I really miss being able to call my opponent when his starting RB fumbled on 1st and goal from the 1". I've never played in a kickerless league and thought "man, I really miss rooting for San Diego's offense to stall at the 35 instead of the 30 so that Kaeding can get that extra bonus point for a 50+ yarder".

 

[Neil Beaufort Zod]

I'm really surprised to see that people are eager to get rid of the "luck" of kickers, but are fine with playing head-to-head schedule where the random schedule usually determines which teams are in the playoffs and which ones are not. If I can take your playoff teams, play with their schedule and have them miss the playoffs (and do the reverse with teams that missed the playoffs), your whole league is based on luck.

Nothing wrong with playing the way you want to play, of course. But railing against the luck factor of kickers while your season's fortunes are determined by a randomly-generated schedule is kind of funny, no? I mean, aren't you failing to address the single-biggest luck element in your league? You can't use luck as an argument and advocate basing your entire league on it at the same time.

IOW, leave the lil kickers alone!

Who said everyone was fine with head to head? This is a thread about getting rid of kickers, not a thread about getting rid of kickers but keeping head to head. Someone could easily want to do away with both, it's just that most people wouldn't bother posting about the second because, you know, the second is not the slightest bit relevant to the thread.Besides, the head to head schedule happens to offer advantages to go with the increased luck. It makes for much more lively trash talk, and dramatically increases suspense and interest in the league. Kickers, on the other hand, don't really offer any advantages to offset the luck element. I've played in All-Play leagues and thought "man, I really miss being able to call my opponent when his starting RB fumbled on 1st and goal from the 1". I've never played in a kickerless league and thought "man, I really miss rooting for San Diego's offense to stall at the 35 instead of the 30 so that Kaeding can get that extra bonus point for a 50+ yarder".

I appreciate your comments, but please note that I was talking about people who are using "eliminate the luck" arguments. I believe that highlighting their acceptance of something that adds much more luck shows that it's not really about eliminating luck at all-- and that undercuts their position in this discussion. I believe that makes it quite relevant, since "luck" was brought into the discussion as a reason to eliminate kickers.I also appreciate that you believe adding luck to the game has its benefits in the right situations. I disagree (I think we have enough already) but the small amount of luck that kickers might add (if you accept that argument) makes it a poor rationale for ditching them-- especially considering how much luck we already embrace, for whatever reasons we imagine are valid.

 

[Instinctive]

I'm really surprised to see that people are eager to get rid of the "luck" of kickers, but are fine with playing head-to-head schedule where the random schedule usually determines which teams are in the playoffs and which ones are not. If I can take your playoff teams, play with their schedule and have them miss the playoffs (and do the reverse with teams that missed the playoffs), your whole league is based on luck.

Nothing wrong with playing the way you want to play, of course. But railing against the luck factor of kickers while your season's fortunes are determined by a randomly-generated schedule is kind of funny, no? I mean, aren't you failing to address the single-biggest luck element in your league? You can't use luck as an argument and advocate basing your entire league on it at the same time.

IOW, leave the lil kickers alone!

Who said everyone was fine with head to head? This is a thread about getting rid of kickers, not a thread about getting rid of kickers but keeping head to head. Someone could easily want to do away with both, it's just that most people wouldn't bother posting about the second because, you know, the second is not the slightest bit relevant to the thread.Besides, the head to head schedule happens to offer advantages to go with the increased luck. It makes for much more lively trash talk, and dramatically increases suspense and interest in the league. Kickers, on the other hand, don't really offer any advantages to offset the luck element. I've played in All-Play leagues and thought "man, I really miss being able to call my opponent when his starting RB fumbled on 1st and goal from the 1". I've never played in a kickerless league and thought "man, I really miss rooting for San Diego's offense to stall at the 35 instead of the 30 so that Kaeding can get that extra bonus point for a 50+ yarder".

I appreciate your comments, but please note that I was talking about people who are using "eliminate the luck" arguments. I believe that highlighting their acceptance of something that adds much more luck shows that it's not really about eliminating luck at all-- and that undercuts their position in this discussion. I believe that makes it quite relevant, since "luck" was brought into the discussion as a reason to eliminate kickers.I also appreciate that you believe adding luck to the game has its benefits in the right situations. I disagree (I think we have enough already) but the small amount of luck that kickers might add (if you accept that argument) makes it a poor rationale for ditching them-- especially considering how much luck we already embrace, for whatever reasons we imagine are valid.

As the main "eliminate the luck" guy in here...here are the point totals, in order of the standings, from one of my leagues:1. 1417.73

2. 1516.93

3. 1339.45

4. 1269.72 (although he lost Turner and Ryan and had poor backups...was one of the highest scoring until then)

5. 1396.18

6. 1151.28

7. 1143.32

8. 1339.29

9. 1256.91

10. 1252.8

11. 1159.50

12. 1067.38

It is basically in order of what I see are the best teams, although #8 looks like an abberation, it's basically just CJ4.24 blowing up some weeks huge, and others being good, and sometimes his other guys do too. It isn't a team I would want.

And I put out the idea of all play there, it seems like we might be able to go to it next year...meaning high score is 11-0 for the week, 2nd is 10-1...alll the way down to 0-11.

Head to head is not near as much luck as kickers...and adds a whole lot of fun.

ETA: This coming from a guy who outscored the whole league by 200 last season...and finished dead last.