Henry Ford
Footballguy
I'm trying to imagine how you rationalize putting yourself in a position to lose your license to practice law over $26,000.00
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The Lawyer Thread Where We Stop Ruining Other Threads (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter Henry Ford
- Start date
Fat Nick
Footballguy
Lawyer question for you guys...not sure if this falls under contract law or what...
Short back-story: My father made several personal loans. Contracts were signed, all documents are up to snuff...My father is unable to handle his business affairs for a while, so I am managing, have full POA, etc.
Terms of the note are as follows:
- 2-year term
-Interest only payments due on the 14th of each month
-5% penalty can be added to the monthly payment if payment is beyond 5 days past-due.
One of the loans is very delinquent. She's currently 6 months past due (owes March-Aug). Up until now, we had not charged her the late penalty on anything...I received Feb-March over the course of 3 months, and didn't levy the penalty. I sent her an e-mail 2 months ago requesting that she get current or I would levy the penalty on all past-due payments, and start holding firm on charging it on all future late payments. No response to that e-mail. I gave her a deadline of August 14th to get current. No response, no payment.
I'm now adding late payments to her outstanding balance. I have yet to hear anything from her via e-mail. I have confirmed via her CPA that she has received the e-mails.
Legally, thinking forward to a possible situation where we hit August 16th's loan maturity date, when she owes principal + past due payments + late fees, and her not having the money to pay, a possible gap I see is that she can simply deny knowing I had reached out to her.
-The loan contract specifies the late penalty can be applied once any payment is 5 days late. She's clearly in breach of that as per the contract, much less me telling her.
Do I have any obligation to ensure she is aware that the late penalties are now being assessed? Or does the contract language, which clearly outlines that, serve as sufficient enough grounds even though we had not levied it until now? If I need to send her a certified letter letting her know, I will, but if I don't have to, then I won't.
Thoughts?
Short back-story: My father made several personal loans. Contracts were signed, all documents are up to snuff...My father is unable to handle his business affairs for a while, so I am managing, have full POA, etc.
Terms of the note are as follows:
- 2-year term
-Interest only payments due on the 14th of each month
-5% penalty can be added to the monthly payment if payment is beyond 5 days past-due.
One of the loans is very delinquent. She's currently 6 months past due (owes March-Aug). Up until now, we had not charged her the late penalty on anything...I received Feb-March over the course of 3 months, and didn't levy the penalty. I sent her an e-mail 2 months ago requesting that she get current or I would levy the penalty on all past-due payments, and start holding firm on charging it on all future late payments. No response to that e-mail. I gave her a deadline of August 14th to get current. No response, no payment.
I'm now adding late payments to her outstanding balance. I have yet to hear anything from her via e-mail. I have confirmed via her CPA that she has received the e-mails.
Legally, thinking forward to a possible situation where we hit August 16th's loan maturity date, when she owes principal + past due payments + late fees, and her not having the money to pay, a possible gap I see is that she can simply deny knowing I had reached out to her.
-The loan contract specifies the late penalty can be applied once any payment is 5 days late. She's clearly in breach of that as per the contract, much less me telling her.
Do I have any obligation to ensure she is aware that the late penalties are now being assessed? Or does the contract language, which clearly outlines that, serve as sufficient enough grounds even though we had not levied it until now? If I need to send her a certified letter letting her know, I will, but if I don't have to, then I won't.
Thoughts?
Zow
Footballguy
How many of you use electronic devices in court?
I use my iPad and it's incredibly efficient compared to paper files. It connects right to my firm's file storing software and I can get to any document or note pertaining to any case my firm in a matter of seconds. Also, while I'm waiting for court cases to be called I'm able to access e-mails and use that time to correspond with clients or opposing counsels via e-mail or iMessage. I also can stay in constant contact with my staff in the event a client is late for court or is calling because they broke down on the way or whatever.
I ask though because there appears to be some controversy, at least in my jurisdiction, over the use of electronic devices. We have one judge who forbade them until enough of the attorneys spoke to him in chambers and explained how difficult that ban was making their lives. There's also the public perception that a lawyer on his or her device may not be paying attention to a hearing. This came to a head for me yesterday when a pro se client I was advisory counsel for accused me (after accusing the judge and prosecutor of corruption) of not paying attention to his trial because I was on my iPad. While the reality was that I was on my iPad because I let him use my paper file and his hundreds of case documents became disorganized by him so I reverted to my much more organized electronic file, I'm sure it looked potentially bad as there were points during his painstakingly long cross examinations where I was probably communicating with my office.
I'm curious as to what other jurisdictions are doing, if anything, regarding attorney uses of iPads, laptops, or even smartphones during court.
I use my iPad and it's incredibly efficient compared to paper files. It connects right to my firm's file storing software and I can get to any document or note pertaining to any case my firm in a matter of seconds. Also, while I'm waiting for court cases to be called I'm able to access e-mails and use that time to correspond with clients or opposing counsels via e-mail or iMessage. I also can stay in constant contact with my staff in the event a client is late for court or is calling because they broke down on the way or whatever.
I ask though because there appears to be some controversy, at least in my jurisdiction, over the use of electronic devices. We have one judge who forbade them until enough of the attorneys spoke to him in chambers and explained how difficult that ban was making their lives. There's also the public perception that a lawyer on his or her device may not be paying attention to a hearing. This came to a head for me yesterday when a pro se client I was advisory counsel for accused me (after accusing the judge and prosecutor of corruption) of not paying attention to his trial because I was on my iPad. While the reality was that I was on my iPad because I let him use my paper file and his hundreds of case documents became disorganized by him so I reverted to my much more organized electronic file, I'm sure it looked potentially bad as there were points during his painstakingly long cross examinations where I was probably communicating with my office.
I'm curious as to what other jurisdictions are doing, if anything, regarding attorney uses of iPads, laptops, or even smartphones during court.
krista4
Footballguy
A well-written promissory note will have language stating both that (1) no notice is required that the late charges are being assessed, and (2) failure to enforce a breach, etc. will not act as a waiver of the breach or of any remedy associated with it. I'm hoping your note was well crafted.
Even if it was not, that doesn't mean you're out of luck. The note should also have a provision indicating how notices should be served--i.e., by email, fax (believe it or not), certified mail, overnight mail, etc. What does that provision say?
Instinctive
Footballguy
Ok current attorneys: My office works against the same opponent for every single case, in different types of cases generally within a few categories. We are repeat opponents, I suppose you could say. I have a question for you, because I want to know if this is a wider part of law or just the other party. Does the below sort of gamesmanship and (IMO) crap happen often?
All summer I have been prepping for a hearing. My supervising attorneys have traveled multiple places around the country to interview witnesses, prepare for the hearing, build a case timeline, etc. The date got set with the other party a while ago.
Now, right as we are about to go to the hearing, it is moved back because the other attorney could no longer be available on the dates set BECAUSE HE "HAD" TO GO ON VACATION those dates. Remind you, this is the guy we set the ####### date with in the first place. How the hell is that allowed? Like, dude, you helped set the date...take your vacation the next ####### week!!!
Also, I've worked on a number of cases that are flat out ridiculous. As in, there's a line of precedent directly on point with very clear standards (way more clear than anything I read in school) and the other side very clearly has no case at all. How often does this kind of crap happen where people are just filing something because they can, and because it's cheaper to settle than to go swat them away? It's insane.
All summer I have been prepping for a hearing. My supervising attorneys have traveled multiple places around the country to interview witnesses, prepare for the hearing, build a case timeline, etc. The date got set with the other party a while ago.
Now, right as we are about to go to the hearing, it is moved back because the other attorney could no longer be available on the dates set BECAUSE HE "HAD" TO GO ON VACATION those dates. Remind you, this is the guy we set the ####### date with in the first place. How the hell is that allowed? Like, dude, you helped set the date...take your vacation the next ####### week!!!
Also, I've worked on a number of cases that are flat out ridiculous. As in, there's a line of precedent directly on point with very clear standards (way more clear than anything I read in school) and the other side very clearly has no case at all. How often does this kind of crap happen where people are just filing something because they can, and because it's cheaper to settle than to go swat them away? It's insane.
krista4
Footballguy
No idea on any of the above; just posting as I realized today that a college/law school friend of mine is Associate Dean of Career Services at your law school. Don't know if you would have interacted with her, but she's a fantastic person.
Instinctive
Footballguy
the rover
Footballguy
Fat Nick
Footballguy
Does note that no notice is required that the charges are being assessed, and says re. the late payment and subsequent note call provision, "failure to exercise this option shall not constitute a waiver of the right to exercise this option in the event of any subsequent default or defaults." I'm assuming this basically means that just because we didn't start charging the penalty from day 1 doesn't mean we can't start charging it now.
There is no mention of how notices should be served...there's honestly no mention of notices in general.
There is a line that I'm confused on. It says "The undersigned hereby waives presentment, demand of payment, notice and protest thereof of this note, and also hereby waives the benefit of my homestead exemption as to this debt, and agree to pay all costs of collection, including reasonable attorney's fees, in case payment is not made in accordance with the provision of this note."
What does the homestead exemption part mean?
[Also, thanks for the input, and sorry again re. the Cat thread...the rant wasn't directed at you specificaly. It just really hit a nerve when people were telling me I didn't care about my pets, especially after I lost my Moose a month or so ago...]
Henry Ford
Footballguy
Bolded #1: You're going to blow a ####### gasket if you get worked up about this. It happens constantly.
Bolded #2: It's unethical to file an action not grounded in law or in a good faith argument for a change in the law. It happens sometimes, but it's usually not as intentional as you're thinking it is. Usually, a plaintiff's lawyer (who doesn't have a dozen summer associates, unlimited westlaw access, paralegals, multiple secretaries, and a law clerk) files an action he believes (but is incorrect in believing) is founded in the current law. Then a defense firm files a response to be removed from the action, and he starts scrambling so he doesn't look like an idiot. And often fails.
krista4
Footballguy
The homestead exemption refers to the fact that in some states a debtor can't be forced to sell his/her house to cover an unpaid debt. I'm assuming this debt was unsecured so am not sure why that's in there, and I don't know if this is a proper waiver (might need, for instance, spousal consent). For your purposes, just ignore it.
Sounds like you have the favorable language in there and should be good--nice that you have the attorneys' fees provision as well, so that you are made whole for your costs of enforcement.
No worries re cat; completely understandable given your recent loss. I think there was only one person in there who was questioning whether you're a good kitty parent.
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Generally speaking, it's rarely a bad idea just to send a notice of default and reservation of rights letter via certified mail. Then the other party will have a tougher time arguing you had some sort of oral understanding or agreement contrary to the terms of the loan documents.
Fat Nick
Footballguy
Yes - unsecured note unfortunately. I wish that wasn't the case just because I think at this point, she lacks all motivation to pay. I agree re. the attorney's fees. I'm very glad that language is in there. I'm already in collections on another note that is far worse than this one as far as delinquency and being difficult to deal with. Suit has been filed, so we'll see what happens there. This lady's store just happened to burn down over the weekend...so that's a little interesting given her debt issues.The homestead exemption refers to the fact that in some states a debtor can't be forced to sell his/her house to cover an unpaid debt. I'm assuming this debt was unsecured so am not sure why that's in there, and I don't know if this is a proper waiver (might need, for instance, spousal consent). For your purposes, just ignore it.
Sounds like you have the favorable language in there and should be good--nice that you have the attorneys' fees provision as well, so that you are made whole for your costs of enforcement.
No worries re cat; completely understandable given your recent loss. I think there was only one person in there who was questioning whether you're a good kitty parent.
My dad made a lot of loans to business acquaintances...now it's kind of on me to keep on them, and they're trying to take advantage of some tough times for the family. It's hard because I know these are relationships my father valued, but to me, they are just opportunistic vultures. I have to look out for my parents best interests and balance my own life and time.
I appreciate the input and deciphering.
Fat Nick
Footballguy
Todd Andrews
Footballguy
Instinctive
Footballguy
I'm just not going to practice. I couldn't deal with it. People (IMO) need to handle their #### up front and the practice of law just doesn't seem conducive to that.
To be fair, in this particular case, I think they could argue a good faith basis for filing, but it's a big opponent with decades of experience going back and forth between us. They should know better on some of these. Like, a majority of what I have seen has been situations that could conceivably go either way but that I think we'd be the favorites to win, but aren't outlandish. Then there's just a couple...ugh. Also, I'm not at a firm, and I haven't used Westlaw all summer. We actually have physical and digital copies of our own of every single opinion in this particular line of cases. It's actually been really nice.
Aside from this one type of case, most of my work has been interpreting documents and agreements and such and analyzing how they have changed, how they might continue to change, and why. Oh, and I've had some projects suggesting revisions to governing documents. It's been fascinating.
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Henry Ford
Footballguy
Henry Ford
Footballguy
Todd Andrews
Footballguy
Yankee23Fan
Fair Tax!
krista4
Footballguy
You could practice and simply not be a litigator.
I know that your focus has been on other, non-legal options, though.
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Instinctive
Footballguy
I can see them not having access to some facts that I do if their client wasn't 100% forthright or "misremembered" some things that my side has actual records of. And some of it is just me being a bit hyperbolic and biased. Also, reviewing the rules governing these procedures, I think there may not be a good faith basis requirement to file claims in this situation. The only requirement is that the other side "believes he has a justifiable grievance," and my understanding is that it is impossible to prove he does not. Work isn't being done in a state or federal court, per se. All of these are arbitrations governed by a very specifically outlined procedure.
That was probably material to the discussion. Sorry to have left it out. But, yes, all of my work is in this area. Basically nothing in a true court. The only case we have (that I know of) in front of a real court is for outside counsel to handle.
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Henry Ford
Footballguy
Henry Ford
Footballguy
Also, I'm sure your client is above board and would never do anything like this, but there have been several situations during my career where I've found irrefutable proof that the company with "actual records" is completely full of #### and making things up in order to avoid being cast in judgment in a lawsuit. And several where I'm pretty sure they were, but I didn't have irrefutable proof of it.
Instinctive
Footballguy
That's entirely possible. I think it's unlikely for a couple reasons (and hasn't ever happened as far as I can tell from the past cases). Also sometimes it's funny because the other side has sent text messages or spoken to the media at the time in question, and then later contends the opposite of what he had said at the time the incident actually happened (on both sides. Some of the people on our side have totally lost themselves a case because they spoke and basically said they did do exactly what the other side said they did...lol).
As to the above post - is that a good faith basis? I just mean the rules governing the procedure for bringing a grievance never use the phrase "good faith basis." I thought that was one of those legal magic phrases that had to be used to get the effect.
I'm really glad this happened today. I feel like I'm learning things that are good to know. Thank you for helping me understand!
ETA: as usual if this is annoying feel free to tell me to stop. But I know I find it helpful and I hope it is at least amusing for y'all, perhaps breaking up some daily monotony in some way,
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Henry Ford
Footballguy
Yeah, that's essentially a good faith basis for the filing.
And it's not annoying, it's sometimes amusing, but it's more... nostalgic. Don't ever stop asking questions.
If you change your mind and litigate, you will find after a while that there are roughly as many defendants lying about what happened as there are plaintiffs lying about what happened. And often they take a position that's legally supportable but factually unsupportable because they admitted things before their lawyer told them what would have had to happen for them to not be at fault.
Generally, though, people are simply unreliable. They misremember. They lose track of timelines and dates and the order that things happened in, and the "new" timeline usually supports them being in the right. It usually isn't because people are flat out lying, but that our minds reconstruct things so that we seem like the heroes of our own stories. Like Donald Trump, but instead of 30 seconds it takes weeks or months to take hold.
One of the fascinating parts of being a litigator is trying to piece together what really happened. Most defense litigators don't really care as much, but as a plaintiff's attorney, you have to put together what really happened. You have to find a story that's 100% believeable, casts both parties as fallible human beings and not angels or demons, run it from start to finish, and get the jury/judge to believe it. If you do that and the law is on your side, you win. If you don't, flip a coin at best. But you should always assume that whatever your client tells you or whatever the defense tells you, there's a real story that's different from both.
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Instinctive
Footballguy
A lot of what I've done is put together the stories. I call them timelines, but idk why. It just feels like I'm building a timeline. It's pretty cool a lot of the time - basically like being a detective. I have to go through all the reports generated by what is sort of a third-party and sort of our side. Basically, the person with the grievance ha,s like 99% of the time, visited what is essentially a doctor for treatment over a period of time. During that period, the doctor took notes for every visit (and with his other patients) and filed them that day or in batches at the end of every week. The notes have a very specific format that every doctor in the entire network has to fill out for every patient, every time.
So I get to go through all of those. Then I get to look at all the work performance of the claimant, including evaluations by his supervisors. Then I get to look at anything and everything in the media (including social media sometimes, which can be really funny) around the person that is said by either side. Finally, I get to put all of that in order (I use excel with a date column for every "event" or document so it's easy to sort all sorts of ways) and then add in all the job assignments the person had and then compare it all to what the grievance is about.
It's pretty cool. And even better, it seems that what I recommend and pass along really carries some significant weight. Some of my other assignments (like memos analyzing a line of precedent or something) have come back with heavy edits, but as the summer has gone along the edits have become lighter. Maybe it's just that supervisors are busier, but with my ego I take that as a sign that I'm learning and getting better at the analysis and the writing.
For the record: doctors and patients are just the best and easiest analogy to use, and close enough, because explaining it in more detail would A) make it way too obvious what I do and B) could take a lot longer to explain.
So I get to go through all of those. Then I get to look at all the work performance of the claimant, including evaluations by his supervisors. Then I get to look at anything and everything in the media (including social media sometimes, which can be really funny) around the person that is said by either side. Finally, I get to put all of that in order (I use excel with a date column for every "event" or document so it's easy to sort all sorts of ways) and then add in all the job assignments the person had and then compare it all to what the grievance is about.
It's pretty cool. And even better, it seems that what I recommend and pass along really carries some significant weight. Some of my other assignments (like memos analyzing a line of precedent or something) have come back with heavy edits, but as the summer has gone along the edits have become lighter. Maybe it's just that supervisors are busier, but with my ego I take that as a sign that I'm learning and getting better at the analysis and the writing.
For the record: doctors and patients are just the best and easiest analogy to use, and close enough, because explaining it in more detail would A) make it way too obvious what I do and B) could take a lot longer to explain.
Henry Ford
Footballguy
You're going to hate this advice, but if this is the stuff you like, you really should consider plaintiff work.
Instinctive
Footballguy
I don't doubt that I would, but...how long would I have to do boring and tedious stuff as a newly minted lawyer before I got to do the stuff I'm handling now? I feel like I've got a really unique opportunity to be here for the summer, but I also note that every single person who is an attorney here worked 3+ years in BigLaw first. No desire at all to do that.
How much plaintiffs practice is sports-related?
Henry Ford
Footballguy
Sports-related... probably depends on where you work, but usually very little.
As for how long you have to do boring and tedious stuff before getting to do the "fun" stuff as a plaintiff's attorney... 5 minutes? A week if you have a really hard-nosed firm? Just stay away from the huge case-mills. Work for a small firm, and you'll be arguing in court within 6 months, max.
Yankee23Fan
Fair Tax!
6 months... pfft. I was in court my first week without a net.
Granted small small firm.
Granted small small firm.
Henry Ford
Footballguy
Henry Ford
Footballguy
Basically, Instinctive, all the stuff people hate about being a lawyer that you hear about in law school goes out the window in the small firm plaintiff's game. You have other stuff to hate, I promise, but the BigLaw B.S. doesn't exist.
Yankee23Fan
Fair Tax!
I know.
I always have my phone to access e-mail & documents in court--except Joliet where I can't even bring it in the courthouse because I haven't bothered to drive all of the way down there on a Tuesday to get the proper ID. I can't speak for every judge in the Daley Center (there's over 70 of them) but none that I've been in front of have had a problem using any technology I want during trials/hearings. No answering the phone, of course.
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Somebody I know was a victim of assault and battery. The state is currently pressing charges against this person and they keep getting their court dates continued. While this case was pending, this person was charged with a DUI and is actively avoiding the warrant out for him. This person is currently mocking the fact he has a warrant out on him and has his DUI mugshot as his Facebook profile picture.
My question mainly is how does this person ensure that this human piece of trash sees jail time? He's committed two crimes in a 3 month span while under the influence of alcohol. Does the DUI charge make the first crime's punishment more severe? Does the mocking of the police do anything to amplify potential charges?
Surely he's not going to be "Mr. Cool" when in court and will be at the mercy of the judge. What will be the best way to let the judge know the nonsense this guy has been up to? Work with the states attorney?
Thanks for your help,
Em
My question mainly is how does this person ensure that this human piece of trash sees jail time? He's committed two crimes in a 3 month span while under the influence of alcohol. Does the DUI charge make the first crime's punishment more severe? Does the mocking of the police do anything to amplify potential charges?
Surely he's not going to be "Mr. Cool" when in court and will be at the mercy of the judge. What will be the best way to let the judge know the nonsense this guy has been up to? Work with the states attorney?
Thanks for your help,
Em
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Ramsay Hunt Experience
Footballguy
The only thing your friend can do is testify if asked to do so (and/or to write a victim impact statement).
Zow
Footballguy
Well, to be fair it's not that simple. In my jurisdiction there's actually a victim's bill of rights and every prosecutor's office has a "victim advocate". That statute also permits a victim to sue the state if the state doesn't give reasonable consideration to the wishes and concerns of the victim so prosecutors will, often begrudgingly, defer to the wishes of a victim. Some prosecuting agencies will do so far more than others and almost turn into the victim's lawyer. As such, in my jurisdiction a squeaky victim can actually have some pretty hefty influence on a case by providing evidence to the advocate, continually voicing a desired outcome, etc. My jurisdiction also allows a victim to have his or her own attorney with standing to file some limited pleadings.
What RHE is describing is the general answer probably, but there are some jurisdiction where Em's buddy may be able to do much more.
the moops
Footballguy
Could anyone point to a resource where I could find some sort of standard use agreement?
Quick background.
Got a commission to design/build a map that would help the organizers of the event track where most of their customers were coming from. Client was an Asian night market, so wanted to do something interesting. Made a giant Lite-Brite map that was a huge hit and just functional enough for them to gather some data.
Anyway, market ends, they have no place to store the map. I offer to store the map for them, but allow them to use it in the future for X amount of of dates so long as they give proper notice (2 weeks notice or something). Our initial non-written down agreement was that I was making it for them and they would maintain possession of it.
They want something in writing though. This wasn't a huge commission (few thousand dollars), and we only want to keep the map cause we think we can bring to other events which will help with publicity. So, not looking for anything super complex, but is there some standard agreement I could run off of? Or a template I could use?
Thanks in advance for any help
Quick background.
Got a commission to design/build a map that would help the organizers of the event track where most of their customers were coming from. Client was an Asian night market, so wanted to do something interesting. Made a giant Lite-Brite map that was a huge hit and just functional enough for them to gather some data.
Anyway, market ends, they have no place to store the map. I offer to store the map for them, but allow them to use it in the future for X amount of of dates so long as they give proper notice (2 weeks notice or something). Our initial non-written down agreement was that I was making it for them and they would maintain possession of it.
They want something in writing though. This wasn't a huge commission (few thousand dollars), and we only want to keep the map cause we think we can bring to other events which will help with publicity. So, not looking for anything super complex, but is there some standard agreement I could run off of? Or a template I could use?
Thanks in advance for any help
Henry Ford
Footballguy
Client had to go for a defense medical examination yesterday. Walked into the office with her sister, who goes with her to all of her medical appointments.
Turns out sister went to medical school with the doctor and they were friends who had lost touch. DME had a huge crush on her in medical school and is now divorced. Kind of looking forward to the guy's report now.
Turns out sister went to medical school with the doctor and they were friends who had lost touch. DME had a huge crush on her in medical school and is now divorced. Kind of looking forward to the guy's report now.
Zow
Footballguy
Poke_4_Life
Footballguy
What kind of 
does it make me that I've read this entire thread and I'm not a lawyer?
Surely I'm not alone...
does it make me that I've read this entire thread and I'm not a lawyer?Surely I'm not alone...
