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The Russia Investigation: Trump Pardons Flynn (3 Viewers)

IF it does go through, which I don't think it should, for it to be success he would need to ask that the indicted Russians be turned over.  I suspect it will be some dog and pony similar to the NK fiasco where the rest of the world ends up laughing at us.  

 
ren hoek said:
I am completely selfaware and already knew someone would go there.  

Still.  I am constantly blown away at how cynical any move by Trump that could conceivably reduce the threat of nuclear war is scoffed at in US media.  I think the majority of people have moved on from 2016 and realize how serious the stakes are here.  
Click to expand...
You do make a salient point. The only alternative to meeting 1:1 with Putin and leaking in the press that you might halt the NATO calendar for joint maneuvers that's been slated for 3 years already, is clearly nuclear war. Plus, after the rousing success in North Korea and their denuclearization, you'd think people would have a little more confidence in Trump's ability to negotiate with world leaders and strike a good deal.

 
ren hoek said:
I am completely selfaware and already knew someone would go there.  

Still.  I am constantly blown away at how cynical any move by Trump that could conceivably reduce the threat of nuclear war is scoffed at in US media.  I think the majority of people have moved on from 2016 and realize how serious the stakes are here.  
Click to expand...
Folks can be cynical about a spoon finding a solution to conflict in the middle east.  Spoons just aren't equipped in any way to solve such a problem.

Similarly, Trump as a human being is not equipped to solve many of these problems.  We can wish that he were, and put rosy glasses on and hope the blind squirrel stumbles over a nut, but the man has no capacity for this kind of thing.  He's not a deal maker.  He doesn't bring people together.  He doesn't have a grasp of the issues.  He foments chaos EVERYWHERE.

Why on earth would cynicism about this subject not be the most reasonable expectation?  Send a 10 year old to Russia in hopes of solving this issue, should we hold out hope that she solve the issue because it's incredibly serious and there are nuclear weapons?  

 
The Commish said:
IF it does go through, which I don't think it should, for it to be success he would need to ask that the indicted Russians be turned over.  I suspect it will be some dog and pony similar to the NK fiasco where the rest of the world ends up laughing at us.  
Click to expand...
Right, to avoid nuclear war the Russians should confess and turn over the hackers.

but, that’s not what this is about. It’s about money. Russian money (sanctions) and America money (Middle East development).

 
ren hoek said:
I am completely selfaware and already knew someone would go there.  

Still.  I am constantly blown away at how cynical any move by Trump that could conceivably reduce the threat of nuclear war is scoffed at in US media.  I think the majority of people have moved on from 2016 and realize how serious the stakes are here.  
Click to expand...
Why? Are we on the brink of nuclear war with Russia?

 
ProstheticRGK said:
You do make a salient point. The only alternative to meeting 1:1 with Putin and leaking in the press that you might halt the NATO calendar for joint maneuvers that's been slated for 3 years already, is clearly nuclear war. Plus, after the rousing success in North Korea and their denuclearization, you'd think people would have a little more confidence in Trump's ability to negotiate with world leaders and strike a good deal.
Click to expand...
Ok, nowhere have I stated that either the summit happens or we have a nuclear war.  But it's a souring of already horrible relations and it needs to be taken seriously.  

 
Common Ground: For Secure Elections and True National Security

An open letter by Gloria Steinem, Noam Chomsky, John Dean, Governor Bill Richardson, Walter Mosley, Michael Moore, Valerie Plame, and others.

By The Nation

JULY 11, 2018

Many Americans remain deeply concerned about reports of Russian interference with the 2016 election. Meanwhile, relations between the United States and Russia are at their lowest and most dangerous point in several decades. For the sake of democracy at home and true national security, we must reach common ground to safeguard common interests—taking steps to protect the nation’s elections and to prevent war between the world’s two nuclear superpowers.

Whatever the truth of varied charges that Russia interfered with the election, there should be no doubt that America’s digital-age infrastructure for the electoral process is in urgent need of protection. The overarching fact remains that the system is vulnerable to would-be hackers based anywhere. Solutions will require a much higher level of security for everything from voter-registration records to tabulation of ballots with verifiable paper trails. As a nation, we must fortify our election system against unlawful intrusions as well as official policies of voter suppression.

At the same time, the US and Russian governments show numerous signs of being on a collision course. Diplomacy has given way to hostility and reciprocal consular expulsions, along with dozens of near-miss military encounters in Syria and in skies above Europe. Both sides are plunging ahead with major new weapons-development programs. In contrast to prior eras, there is now an alarming lack of standard procedures to keep the armed forces of both countries in sufficient communication to prevent an escalation that could lead to conventional or even nuclear attack. These tensions are festering between two nations with large quantities of nuclear weapons on virtual hair-trigger alert; yet the current partisan fixations in Washington are ignoring the dangers to global stability and, ultimately, human survival.

The United States should implement a pronounced shift in approach toward Russia. No political advantage, real or imagined, could possibly compensate for the consequences if even a fraction of US and Russian arsenals were to be utilized in a thermonuclear exchange. The tacit pretense that the worsening of US-Russian relations does not worsen the odds of survival for the next generations is profoundly false. Concrete steps can and must be taken to ease tensions between the nuclear superpowers.

Andrew Bacevich, Professor Emeritus, Boston University

Rev. Dr. William Barber II, President and Senior Lecturer, Repairers of the Breach, and Visiting Professor of Public Theology, Union Theological Seminary

Phyllis Bennis, Fellow, Institute for Policy Studies

Noam Chomsky, Professor, Author, and Activist

Stephen F. Cohen, Professor Emeritus of Russian Studies and Politics, NYU and Princeton University, and Board Member, American Committee for East-West Accord

John Dean, Former Nixon White House Counsel

Phil Donahue, Journalist and Talk-Show Pioneer

Thomas Drake, Former NSA Senior Executive and Whistle-blower

Daniel Ellsberg, Activist, “Pentagon Papers” Whistle-blower, and Author of The Doomsday Machine: Confessions of a Nuclear War Planner

Jack F. Matlock Jr., Former US Ambassador to the USSR and Board Member, American Committee for East-West Accord

Michael Moore, Academy Award–Winning Filmmaker and Best-Selling Author

Walter Mosley, Writer and Screenwriter

John Nichols, National Affairs Correspondent, The Nation

Viet Thanh Nguyen, Pulitzer Prize–Winning Novelist

Frances Fox Piven, Distinguished Professor Emeritus, CUNY Graduate School

Valerie Plame, Former Covert CIA Operations Officer and Author

Adolph Reed Jr., Professor of Political Science, University of Pennsylvania

Bill Richardson, Former Governor of New Mexico

Patricia Schroeder, Former Congresswoman

Norman Solomon, National Coordinator, RootsAction.org

Gloria Steinem, Writer and Feminist Organizer

Adlai Stevenson III, Former US Senator and Chairman, Adlai Stevenson Center on Democracy

Katrina vanden Heuvel, Editor and Publisher, The Nation

Alice Walker, Writer, Poet, and Activist

Jody Williams, Professor and Nobel Peace Prize Laureate

James Zogby, President, Arab American Institute

Signers have endorsed this Open Letter as individuals and not on behalf of any organization.

https://www.thenation.com/article/common-ground-for-secure-elections-and-true-national-security/

 
ren hoek said:
Ok, nowhere have I stated that either the summit happens or we have a nuclear war.  But it's a souring of already horrible relations and it needs to be taken seriously.  
Click to expand...
What needs to be taken seriously is that Putin ordered his GRU to carry out an operation to meddle in our democratic elections at an unprecedented level, likely with the support of many Americans, several of whom are likely within the Trump campaign and/or administration.

We need to respond to this provocation appropriately, and not just normalize relationships and pretend like it didn't happen.  That's what Trump is doing.

 
ren hoek said:
Ok, nowhere have I stated that either the summit happens or we have a nuclear war.  But it's a souring of already horrible relations and it needs to be taken seriously.  
Click to expand...
What did you mean by this :confused:

In the interest of avoiding war and catastrophic escalation with a major nuclear power,
Click to expand...
Just that our "president" has to do this to avoid war, but not nuclear war?

 
Sinn Fein said:
This is a little misleading - I am reasonably certain Clinton had the Steele Dossier, or the information it contained, and she (and I think Harry Reid) were trying to get the FBI to acknowledge the investigation by that point in the election.
Click to expand...
I think I remember reading that Hillary didn’t have the dossier (or the information it contained) until BuzzFeed published it. I could be mistaken.

 
ren hoek said:
Common Ground: For Secure Elections and True National Security

An open letter by Gloria Steinem, Noam Chomsky, John Dean, Governor Bill Richardson, Walter Mosley, Michael Moore, Valerie Plame, and others.

By The Nation

JULY 11, 2018

Many Americans remain deeply concerned about reports of Russian interference with the 2016 election. Meanwhile, relations between the United States and Russia are at their lowest and most dangerous point in several decades. For the sake of democracy at home and true national security, we must reach common ground to safeguard common interests—taking steps to protect the nation’s elections and to prevent war between the world’s two nuclear superpowers.

Whatever the truth of varied charges that Russia interfered with the election, there should be no doubt that America’s digital-age infrastructure for the electoral process is in urgent need of protection. The overarching fact remains that the system is vulnerable to would-be hackers based anywhere. Solutions will require a much higher level of security for everything from voter-registration records to tabulation of ballots with verifiable paper trails. As a nation, we must fortify our election system against unlawful intrusions as well as official policies of voter suppression.

At the same time, the US and Russian governments show numerous signs of being on a collision course. Diplomacy has given way to hostility and reciprocal consular expulsions, along with dozens of near-miss military encounters in Syria and in skies above Europe. Both sides are plunging ahead with major new weapons-development programs. In contrast to prior eras, there is now an alarming lack of standard procedures to keep the armed forces of both countries in sufficient communication to prevent an escalation that could lead to conventional or even nuclear attack. These tensions are festering between two nations with large quantities of nuclear weapons on virtual hair-trigger alert; yet the current partisan fixations in Washington are ignoring the dangers to global stability and, ultimately, human survival.

The United States should implement a pronounced shift in approach toward Russia. No political advantage, real or imagined, could possibly compensate for the consequences if even a fraction of US and Russian arsenals were to be utilized in a thermonuclear exchange. The tacit pretense that the worsening of US-Russian relations does not worsen the odds of survival for the next generations is profoundly false. Concrete steps can and must be taken to ease tensions between the nuclear superpowers.

Andrew Bacevich, Professor Emeritus, Boston University

Rev. Dr. William Barber II, President and Senior Lecturer, Repairers of the Breach, and Visiting Professor of Public Theology, Union Theological Seminary

Phyllis Bennis, Fellow, Institute for Policy Studies

Noam Chomsky, Professor, Author, and Activist

Stephen F. Cohen, Professor Emeritus of Russian Studies and Politics, NYU and Princeton University, and Board Member, American Committee for East-West Accord

John Dean, Former Nixon White House Counsel

Phil Donahue, Journalist and Talk-Show Pioneer

Thomas Drake, Former NSA Senior Executive and Whistle-blower

Daniel Ellsberg, Activist, “Pentagon Papers” Whistle-blower, and Author of The Doomsday Machine: Confessions of a Nuclear War Planner

Jack F. Matlock Jr., Former US Ambassador to the USSR and Board Member, American Committee for East-West Accord

Michael Moore, Academy Award–Winning Filmmaker and Best-Selling Author

Walter Mosley, Writer and Screenwriter

John Nichols, National Affairs Correspondent, The Nation

Viet Thanh Nguyen, Pulitzer Prize–Winning Novelist

Frances Fox Piven, Distinguished Professor Emeritus, CUNY Graduate School

Valerie Plame, Former Covert CIA Operations Officer and Author

Adolph Reed Jr., Professor of Political Science, University of Pennsylvania

Bill Richardson, Former Governor of New Mexico

Patricia Schroeder, Former Congresswoman

Norman Solomon, National Coordinator, RootsAction.org

Gloria Steinem, Writer and Feminist Organizer

Adlai Stevenson III, Former US Senator and Chairman, Adlai Stevenson Center on Democracy

Katrina vanden Heuvel, Editor and Publisher, The Nation

Alice Walker, Writer, Poet, and Activist

Jody Williams, Professor and Nobel Peace Prize Laureate

James Zogby, President, Arab American Institute

Signers have endorsed this Open Letter as individuals and not on behalf of any organization.

https://www.thenation.com/article/common-ground-for-secure-elections-and-true-national-security/
Click to expand...
Great! Let’s do both.  Wait, should I guess which one you want to do first? And then which one you want everyone to wait on until after the next couple of election cycles?

 
Mr. Ham said:
Also disturbing that his guy won, and has been acting in deference to Putin and in odd opposition to our allies.
Click to expand...
At a time like this, folks who take the Russia issue seriously should appreciate united efforts like NATO. 

Why is Trump seeking to normalize relationship with Russia/Putin, ignore their meddling, and seeking to undermine NATO?  Why is he playing nice with dictators, while speaking harshly to our allies?  Why is he constantly lying to his own people? Why is he attacking the DOJ?  Why is he demonizing the FBI?  Why does he call the media the enemy of the people?  Why does he put down the judicial system and judges he disagrees with?

These are not the actions of someone who has the best interests of our country at heart.  This is someone who is seeking his own best interests, while holding the highest office in the land.

If anyone takes the Russia/North Korea issues seriously, there is absolutely no reason to believe Trump will improve them in America's favor.

 
The Commish said:
What did you mean by this :confused:

Just that our "president" has to do this to avoid war, but not nuclear war?
Click to expand...
Again, the summit not happening doesn't mean war happens tomorrow.  But it is yet another step in that direction.  Isn't diplomacy preferable to isolation?  

 
Maurile Tremblay said:
I think I remember reading that Hillary didn’t have the dossier (or the information it contained) until BuzzFeed published it. I could be mistaken.
Click to expand...
That would surprise me...not that Clinton would claim that, but if she did I would not believe her.  Dems were paying for the oppo research, and whether or not they got the final copy, I would be very surprised if they did not have an executive summary of what Steele uncovered. And, I am quite certain that I recall Harry Reid complaining that the FBI would not confirm they were investigating trumps Russian ties - presumably because he knew they had the Steele dossier information.  So, if any Dem knew about the contents, Hillary knew about the contents. 

 
Maurile Tremblay said:
I think I remember reading that Hillary didn’t have the dossier (or the information it contained) until BuzzFeed published it. I could be mistaken.
Click to expand...
Harry Reid article

this was the story I remembered about Reid - dated August 30, 2016. I assumed he, and by extension, Hillary had the info from the Steele dossier at this point  

Looking back, it is scary how accurate he was in his allegations. 

 
ren hoek said:
Again, the summit not happening doesn't mean war happens tomorrow.  But it is yet another step in that direction.  Isn't diplomacy preferable to isolation?  
Click to expand...
Why on earth would Trump be causing tensions in NATO given these high tensions with Russia? Why on earth wouldn't he be looking to solidify and strengthen ties with our allies rather than driving them apart?

This makes absolutely no sense.

 
Sinn Fein said:
Harry Reid article

this was the story I remembered about Reid - dated August 30, 2016. I assumed he, and by extension, Hillary had the info from the Steele dossier at this point  

Looking back, it is scary how accurate he was in his allegations. 
Click to expand...
But the prospect of election tampering has been discussed since the revelation that two Russian intelligence agencies, the F.S.B. and the G.R.U., were believed to be responsible for the hacking of the networks of the Democratic National Committee.

Emails published by a hacker who called himself Guccifer 2.0 — believed to be an alias for Russian hackers linked to the intelligence agencies — revealed that the committee had denigrated the campaign of Senator Bernie Sanders of Vermont.

The disclosures led to the resignation of Representative Debbie Wasserman Schultz of Florida as the committee’s chairwoman.

Mr. Reid’s accusation that Russia is seeking not only to influence the election with propaganda but also to tamper with the vote counting goes significantly beyond anything the Obama administration has said in public.

While intelligence agencies have told the White House that they have “high confidence” that Russian intelligence services were behind the hacking of the Democratic committee, the administration has not leveled any accusations against Mr. Putin’s government. Asked about that in the interview, Mr. Reid said he was free to say things the president was not.

But Mr. Reid argued that the connections between some of Donald J. Trump’s former and current advisers and the Russian leadership should, by itself, prompt an investigation. He referred indirectly in his letter to a speech given in Russia by one Trump adviser, Carter Page, a consultant and investor in the energy giant Gazprom, who criticized American sanctions policy toward Russia.

“Trump and his people keep saying the election is rigged,” Mr. Reid said. “Why is he saying that? Because people are telling him the election can be messed with.” Mr. Trump’s advisers say they are concerned that unnamed elites could rig the election for his opponent, Hillary Clinton.

Mr. Reid argued that if Russia concentrated on “less than six” swing states, it could alter results and undermine confidence in the electoral system. That would pose challenges, given that most states have paper backups, but he noted that hackers could keep people from voting by tampering with the rolls of eligible voters.

 
ren hoek said:
Putin "getting what he wanted" will be the storyline regardless of what the actual outcomes are.
Click to expand...
I’ll go on record and say what outcomes I think would constitute Putin winning:

1. Putin denying that Russia hacked the DNC servers and getting little or no pushback from Trump.

2. Trump agreeing to pull U.S. forces out of Syria and to stop supporting anti-Assad forces there.

3. Trump recognizing Russia’s annexation of Crimea.

4. Trump further denigrating NATO.

5. Putin and Trump jointly announcing Russia’s plans to deploy nuclear-capable ballistic missiles in Cuba.

 
adonis said:
Why on earth would Trump be causing tensions in NATO given these high tensions with Russia? Why on earth wouldn't he be looking to solidify and strengthen ties with our allies rather than driving them apart?

This makes absolutely no sense.
Click to expand...
He wants to become completely isolationist.  Tariffs, trade wars, tearing apart NATO and NAFTA, aggressive immigration policies.  This is all Bannon and Miller’s dream.  Putin gets the US out of the way in Europe.  

 
Speaking of Carter Page... been a fair bit since he was goofing on TV or had his name in a story.  Maybe nothing but certainly a departure.

 
Maurile Tremblay said:
I’ll go on record and say what outcomes I think would constitute Putin winning:

1. Putin denying that Russia hacked the DNC servers and getting little or no pushback from Trump.

2. Trump agreeing to pull U.S. forces out of Syria and to stop supporting anti-Assad forces there.

3. Trump recognizing Russia’s annexation of Crimea.

4. Trump further denigrating NATO.

5. Putin and Trump jointly announcing Russia’s plans to deploy nuclear-capable ballistic missiles in Cuba.
Click to expand...
What can I get for a parlay on 1-4?

Full disclosure: Not a gambler; not sure if I used "parlay" with the correct context.

 
-fish- said:
He wants to become completely isolationist.  Tariffs, trade wars, tearing apart NATO and NAFTA, aggressive immigration policies.  This is all Bannon and Miller’s dream.  Putin gets the US out of the way in Europe.  
Click to expand...
If Russia is a huge threat, there's no better way to deal with them that through strong alliances with our friends and other western countries.

This is clearly not what he's doing.  He's doing this for some other reason than for our national interest.  It's clear for anyone to see if they choose to.

 
-fish- said:
Yes.  Nuance is only allowed if it benefits Trump.  Just like bias makes you completely incapable of doing your job, unless you are biased toward Trump or the GOP, in which case it doesn't matter.
Click to expand...
Some people deserve the benefit of the doubt. And Trump has definitely earned that benefit due to his decades of selfless public service. Strzok has repeatedly shown he's only in it to further his own self-interests.

 
unckeyherb said:
That’s not what I’m doing at all, but ok.  I’m simply asking of the 36 (36!!!) indictments, how many are for crimes related to the 2016 election  by admin officials.  The answer to that is none.  Maybe there’s evidence that we don’t know about.  Maybe there are indictments coming down the pike.  We don’t know what we don’t know.  What we do know is that the 36 (36!!!!!!!!) indictments don’t Actually point to wrongdoing by Trump or his administration. You want them to, I think some of you need them to. But unfortunately they do not.

There’s no goalpost moving, because I never set any to begin with.  
Click to expand...
:popcorn:

 
Mr. Ham said:
I’ve said this before, but only reason you bend to an economy less than 1/10 of your combined allies is if you are seeking to get money directly from said economy.  
Click to expand...
WTF!! You are residing in Dayton, OH?!

... Bad notebook!

 
The Commish said:
IF it does go through, which I don't think it should, for it to be success he would need to ask that the indicted Russians be turned over.  I suspect it will be some dog and pony similar to the NK fiasco where the rest of the world ends up laughing at us.  
Click to expand...
:lmao:

Are these UK citizens?

 
Maurile Tremblay said:
I’ll go on record and say what outcomes I think would constitute Putin winning:

1. Putin denying that Russia hacked the DNC servers and getting little or no pushback from Trump.

2. Trump agreeing to pull U.S. forces out of Syria and to stop supporting anti-Assad forces there.

3. Trump recognizing Russia’s annexation of Crimea.

4. Trump further denigrating NATO.

5. Putin and Trump jointly announcing Russia’s plans to deploy nuclear-capable ballistic missiles in Cuba.
Click to expand...
I'll set the O/U on these coming out of their summit at 3

Taking all action

 
Ignoramus said:
I'll set the O/U on these coming out of their summit at 3

Taking all action
Click to expand...
Jesus I hope you are wrong on 3, 4, 5.  1, 2 I am not too hung up on - especially #2 if it means withdrawing troops that are serving the military industrial complex NOT the sovereignity of the United States.  And #1 is a given.

 
Bucky86 said:
Hillary Clinton stood on a stage next to Donald Trump and called him Putin’s puppet. This was the @NYTimes “News Analysis” the next day:
Click to expand...
I think it's appropriate to remember that the original Trump/Russia thread was started by @Bob Magaw in July 2016.  The Trump/Russia connection was so strong that he felt it was worth tracking.  I remember it because I was about to start the same thread...he best me to it by about 5 minutes.

Point is - there was plenty to be suspicious about, even amongst the general public who had no access to Oppo research, well before the debates.

 
The Roger Stone interview on Cuomo’s show tonight is interesting. Shockingly, they are rolling out the “BUT WHERE IS THE SERVER” defense. 

He also reminded us that the Russian hackers are innocent until proven guilty.

i hope this guy is next and he sings like a little gray haired bird.

 
HellToupee said:
Game respects game. They would’ve been buds
Click to expand...
Trump's game is deceit and discrediting his opponents, a game Reagan would have been disgusted with. I suspect Reagan would have had similar thoughts and comments that Romney had about Trump.

 
moleculo said:
I think it's appropriate to remember that the original Trump/Russia thread was started by @Bob Magaw in July 2016.  The Trump/Russia connection was so strong that he felt it was worth tracking.  I remember it because I was about to start the same thread...he best me to it by about 5 minutes.

Point is - there was plenty to be suspicious about, even amongst the general public who had no access to Oppo research, well before the debates.
Click to expand...
What ever happened to Bob.  He just dropped off.  

 
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