The Russia Investigation: Trump Pardons Flynn (2 Viewers)

[Sand]

Yeah but 16 year olds can’t be trusted to vote and people want young people to pass a test before voting.

This is akin to a poll tax and has been outlawed long ago.

 

[crnerblitz]

Now I may be an old corn chopper, but to me and my understanding, there are a lot of folks out there that are resistant to justice. They are misinformed and for whatever reason put Country or party or whatever other belief system first. They believe in their heart it is equal to justice.This is just wrongheaded and the truth reveals this.

What is justice? Justice is the process of understanding and knowledge of the facts. Process is Justice. Those that wish to short-tail or circumvent process because of beliefs are people that shouldn't be trusted with justice as that subverts the facts. Either you are for the understanding and knowledge of the facts or you are not. Make no mistake, facts are the process. They are not alternative or subjective. When revealed to the light of scrutiny by the many, justice is sustained as the truth.

the truth shall set you free!

 

[Sheriff Bart]

Trump said hundreds of times there was no contact with the Russians. That's a lie by his own affirmation. Why was he lying? Why didn't his camp contact the FBI as instructed?  This is fact, not conspiracy. 

As usual, nothing. 

 

[Sinn Fein]

As usual, nothing. 

I'll play devil's advocate here:

There was no overt collusion between the Trump campaign* and Russia.  Trump is a naive fool, who played the part of an unwitting dupe here.

Russia really wants two thing in the world right now - 1) lifting sanctions that would open up the Russian economy, and also allow Russia to extract more natural resources (oil), and, 2) a decentralized Europe that allows Russia to grow unhindered, and without threat from a unified West.  

Trump really wants to two things in the world right now - 1) money, and 2) power.

I think it is likely that Putin looked at the political landscape in 2016 and nearly fainted with his good fortune.  Britain was looking to leave the EU, and Trump was running for president.  I think Russia put out the feelers on the Trump campaign to ensure that Trump would indeed be interested in lifting sanctions and doing business with Russia, and once that was confirmed, I think Russia did the heavy lifting after that to ensure that Trump would be elected.  Putin knew that he could appeal to Trump's greed and promise of power - and Putin knew (knows) how to stroke Trump's ego to keep him in line.

I think it is likely that Trump's inner-circle is/was oblivious to the Russian efforts.  (When I say inner-circle, we are really just talking about family here - Trump and kids).  When Junior and Kushner met with the Russian attorney - they probably did not appreciate the import of that meeting.  (I think Manafort knew exactly what was going on - I think Jr. and Kushner were too naive to understand).  So, Russia worked behind the scenes - with no overt promises from Trump, but having already ascertained that Trump was willing to cut the sanctions and do business with/in Russia.

So - if we assume that is true - why lie about it?  (Which was the original question here.)  Simple - ego, and self-protection.  Once it became obvious that the narrative was "Russians hacked the DNC to help Trump"  Team Trump wanted to distance themselves from all things Russia.  They did not want the narrative that Russia helped in anyway, and they did not want the appearance that they were in on any bad deeds - so they denied everything - knowing how it might look if they were to admit talking to the Russians, now that the world suspected that Russia had influenced the election.

*I am excluding Manafort from this definition of "Trump Campaign" even though he was the campaign manager, as I think it is possible that any contacts he had with Russia were done outside the knowledge of the Trump family.

 

[Sheriff Bart]

I'll play devil's advocate here:

There was no overt collusion between the Trump campaign* and Russia.  Trump is a naive fool, who played the part of an unwitting dupe here.

Russia really wants two thing in the world right now - 1) lifting sanctions that would open up the Russian economy, and also allow Russia to extract more natural resources (oil), and, 2) a decentralized Europe that allows Russia to grow unhindered, and without threat from a unified West.  

Trump really wants to two things in the world right now - 1) money, and 2) power.

I think it is likely that Putin looked at the political landscape in 2016 and nearly fainted with his good fortune.  Britain was looking to leave the EU, and Trump was running for president.  I think Russia put out the feelers on the Trump campaign to ensure that Trump would indeed be interested in lifting sanctions and doing business with Russia, and once that was confirmed, I think Russia did the heavy lifting after that to ensure that Trump would be elected.  Putin knew that he could appeal to Trump's greed and promise of power - and Putin knew (knows) how to stroke Trump's ego to keep him in line.

I think it is likely that Trump's inner-circle is/was oblivious to the Russian efforts.  (When I say inner-circle, we are really just talking about family here - Trump and kids).  When Junior and Kushner met with the Russian attorney - they probably did not appreciate the import of that meeting.  (I think Manafort knew exactly what was going on - I think Jr. and Kushner were too naive to understand).  So, Russia worked behind the scenes - with no overt promises from Trump, but having already ascertained that Trump was willing to cut the sanctions and do business with/in Russia.

So - if we assume that is true - why lie about it?  (Which was the original question here.)  Simple - ego, and self-protection.  Once it became obvious that the narrative was "Russians hacked the DNC to help Trump"  Team Trump wanted to distance themselves from all things Russia.  They did not want the narrative that Russia helped in anyway, and they did not want the appearance that they were in on any bad deeds - so they denied everything - knowing how it might look if they were to admit talking to the Russians, now that the world suspected that Russia had influenced the election.

*I am excluding Manafort from this definition of "Trump Campaign" even though he was the campaign manager, as I think it is possible that any contacts he had with Russia were done outside the knowledge of the Trump family.

None of this explains why Trump lied hundreds of times but thanks for playing GB. 

 

[Sammy3469]

Another day, another sealed search warrant...this one for Broidy from over the summer

https://www.propublica.org/article/federal-authorities-raided-trump-fundraisers-office-in-money-laundering-probe

 

[msommer]

I'll play devil's advocate here:

There was no overt collusion between the Trump campaign* and Russia.  Trump is a naive fool, who played the part of an unwitting dupe here.

Russia really wants two thing in the world right now - 1) lifting sanctions that would open up the Russian economy, and also allow Russia to extract more natural resources (oil), and, 2) a decentralized Europe that allows Russia to grow unhindered, and without threat from a unified West.  

Trump really wants to two things in the world right now - 1) money, and 2) power.

I think it is likely that Putin looked at the political landscape in 2016 and nearly fainted with his good fortune.  Britain was looking to leave the EU, and Trump was running for president.  I think Russia put out the feelers on the Trump campaign to ensure that Trump would indeed be interested in lifting sanctions and doing business with Russia, and once that was confirmed, I think Russia did the heavy lifting after that to ensure that Trump would be elected.  Putin knew that he could appeal to Trump's greed and promise of power - and Putin knew (knows) how to stroke Trump's ego to keep him in line.

I think it is likely that Trump's inner-circle is/was oblivious to the Russian efforts.  (When I say inner-circle, we are really just talking about family here - Trump and kids).  When Junior and Kushner met with the Russian attorney - they probably did not appreciate the import of that meeting.  (I think Manafort knew exactly what was going on - I think Jr. and Kushner were too naive to understand).  So, Russia worked behind the scenes - with no overt promises from Trump, but having already ascertained that Trump was willing to cut the sanctions and do business with/in Russia.

So - if we assume that is true - why lie about it?  (Which was the original question here.)  Simple - ego, and self-protection.  Once it became obvious that the narrative was "Russians hacked the DNC to help Trump"  Team Trump wanted to distance themselves from all things Russia.  They did not want the narrative that Russia helped in anyway, and they did not want the appearance that they were in on any bad deeds - so they denied everything - knowing how it might look if they were to admit talking to the Russians, now that the world suspected that Russia had influenced the election.

*I am excluding Manafort from this definition of "Trump Campaign" even though he was the campaign manager, as I think it is possible that any contacts he had with Russia were done outside the knowledge of the Trump family.

I think I'll play devil's advocate to your devil's advocate 

"If it is what you say I love it, especially later in the summer" doesn't exactly exhonerate Don jr.

The fact that he, or Jared, seemingly did nothing with "i might just as well mean that someone else, more senior, did, given the ramifications that Manafort must have been aware of....

 

[Sinn Fein]

None of this explains why Trump lied hundreds of times but thanks for playing GB. 

I think many fine people are working diligently to get "Pathological Liar" (pseudologia fantastica) into future DSM volumes to help with this, GB.

 

[Henry Ford]

None of this explains why Trump lied hundreds of times but thanks for playing GB. 

Narcissism and the belief that if he said there was nothing at all to it then they’d leave him alone and not find out about all the other crimes he committed that they’ve clearly found out about by now.  Like the Stormy Daniels payments, etc.  And because he didn’t really understand the law and figured denial saves him from anything he didn’t know was a crime  

It has always been a possibility that he surrounded himself with grifters and criminals who took advantage of his campaign to try to criminally enrich themselves and/or him, including with Russia.  And Turkey. And Saudi Arabia. And that he personally had nothing to do with Russian interference.

That’s why we need the Mueller report to be public. 

 

[Sinn Fein]

I think I'll play devil's advocate to your devil's advocate 

"If it is what you say I love it, especially later in the summer" doesn't exactly exhonerate Don jr.

The fact that he, or Jared, seemingly did nothing with "i might just as well mean that someone else, more senior, did, given the ramifications that Manafort must have been aware of....

Honest question:

Do you think Don Jr thought that what he was doing was wrong - let alone illegal?

I am not sure he has that in his portfolio to understand the difference between "business as usual" and "treason."  

(Yes, I know this was not treason - just using that for effect).

I think Jr was expecting dirt - and got a lecture on the Magnitsky Act and how the sanctions were impacting Russia.  I doubt he is capable of connecting the dots - from him saying that the Trump campaign was willing to take another look at sanctions and the Magnitsky Act, and Russia helping to swing the election.

 

[SaintsInDome2006]

I'll play devil's advocate here:

There was no overt collusion between the Trump campaign* and Russia.  Trump is a naive fool, who played the part of an unwitting dupe here.

Russia really wants two thing in the world right now - 1) lifting sanctions that would open up the Russian economy, and also allow Russia to extract more natural resources (oil), and, 2) a decentralized Europe that allows Russia to grow unhindered, and without threat from a unified West.  

Trump really wants to two things in the world right now - 1) money, and 2) power.

I think it is likely that Putin looked at the political landscape in 2016 and nearly fainted with his good fortune.  Britain was looking to leave the EU, and Trump was running for president.  I think Russia put out the feelers on the Trump campaign to ensure that Trump would indeed be interested in lifting sanctions and doing business with Russia, and once that was confirmed, I think Russia did the heavy lifting after that to ensure that Trump would be elected.  Putin knew that he could appeal to Trump's greed and promise of power - and Putin knew (knows) how to stroke Trump's ego to keep him in line.

I think it is likely that Trump's inner-circle is/was oblivious to the Russian efforts.  (When I say inner-circle, we are really just talking about family here - Trump and kids).  When Junior and Kushner met with the Russian attorney - they probably did not appreciate the import of that meeting.  (I think Manafort knew exactly what was going on - I think Jr. and Kushner were too naive to understand).  So, Russia worked behind the scenes - with no overt promises from Trump, but having already ascertained that Trump was willing to cut the sanctions and do business with/in Russia.

So - if we assume that is true - why lie about it?  (Which was the original question here.)  Simple - ego, and self-protection.  Once it became obvious that the narrative was "Russians hacked the DNC to help Trump"  Team Trump wanted to distance themselves from all things Russia.  They did not want the narrative that Russia helped in anyway, and they did not want the appearance that they were in on any bad deeds - so they denied everything - knowing how it might look if they were to admit talking to the Russians, now that the world suspected that Russia had influenced the election.

*I am excluding Manafort from this definition of "Trump Campaign" even though he was the campaign manager, as I think it is possible that any contacts he had with Russia were done outside the knowledge of the Trump family.

It's notable that no Trump supporters - I don't mean here, I mean in the political world and media - take this running jump shot of a cogent defense, and I just mean that in the sense that lack of coherence is part of the case. These people can't keep their lies straight, their facts straight, even their lawyers can't keep their defenses straight. When they talk about this stuff they don't know if they're spinning, stopping, blowing, going. Again, that's not the posters here, I mean the actual consultants, politicians, lawyers, pundits aligned with Trump. 

 

[msommer]

Honest question:

Do you think Don Jr thought that what he was doing was wrong - let alone illegal?

I am not sure he has that in his portfolio to understand the difference between "business as usual" and "treason."  

(Yes, I know this was not treason - just using that for effect).

I think Jr was expecting dirt - and got a lecture on the Magnitsky Act and how the sanctions were impacting Russia.  I doubt he is capable of connecting the dots - from him saying that the Trump campaign was willing to take another look at sanctions and the Magnitsky Act, and Russia helping to swing the election.

I don't think inability to understand the law usually works as a defense. Perhaps you know better

 

[Slapdash]

Narcissism and the belief that if he said there was nothing at all to it then they’d leave him alone and not find out about all the other crimes he committed that they’ve clearly found out about by now.  Like the Stormy Daniels payments, etc.  And because he didn’t really understand the law and figured denial saves him from anything he didn’t know was a crime  

It has always been a possibility that he surrounded himself with grifters and criminals who took advantage of his campaign to try to criminally enrich themselves and/or him, including with Russia.  And Turkey. And Saudi Arabia. And that he personally had nothing to do with Russian interference.

That’s why we need the Mueller report to be public. 

Although that breaks down a bit when his family/business comes into the picture. 

 

[Sinn Fein]

I don't think inability to understand the law usually works as a defense. Perhaps you know better

Oh, its not a defense.

But - lets say Russian attorney comes to meet with Jr - and get an understanding of where Team Trump is relative to walking back sanctions.  Jr, tells the nice lady that Trump would be willing to roll back sanctions on Russia.  (Keep in mind, at this stage - June 2016 - Team Trump is still looking for Russian help in building Trump Tower, so appeasing Russia/Putin would have easily been a part of that plan).

Now the attorney reports back to Russia that she is convinced Trump will in fact ease sanctions if elected, and Putin then gives the go ahead for the Russian hacking/misinformation campaign.

In that scenario, Jr really did not do anything "wrong" - and, he may very well have walked away from that meeting very disappointed.

 

[msommer]

Oh, its not a defense.

But - lets say Russian attorney comes to meet with Jr - and get an understanding of where Team Trump is relative to walking back sanctions.  Jr, tells the nice lady that Trump would be willing to roll back sanctions on Russia.  (Keep in mind, at this stage - June 2016 - Team Trump is still looking for Russian help in building Trump Tower, so appeasing Russia/Putin would have easily been a part of that plan).

Now the attorney reports back to Russia that she is convinced Trump will in fact ease sanctions if elected, and Putin then gives the go ahead for the Russian hacking/misinformation campaign.

In that scenario, Jr really did not do anything "wrong" - and, he may very well have walked away from that meeting very disappointed.

Isn't the "telling the nice lady Trump would be willing to roll back the sanctions" essentially quid to the "dirt" pro quo, which spells "conspiracy against the United States"?

 

[Slapdash]

Oh, its not a defense.

But - lets say Russian attorney comes to meet with Jr - and get an understanding of where Team Trump is relative to walking back sanctions.  Jr, tells the nice lady that Trump would be willing to roll back sanctions on Russia.  (Keep in mind, at this stage - June 2016 - Team Trump is still looking for Russian help in building Trump Tower, so appeasing Russia/Putin would have easily been a part of that plan).

Now the attorney reports back to Russia that she is convinced Trump will in fact ease sanctions if elected, and Putin then gives the go ahead for the Russian hacking/misinformation campaign.

In that scenario, Jr really did not do anything "wrong" - and, he may very well have walked away from that meeting very disappointed.

The warning came in the form of a high-level counterintelligence briefing by senior FBI officials, the officials said. A similar briefing was given to Hillary Clinton, they added. They said the briefings, which are commonly provided to presidential nominees, were designed to educate the candidates and their top aides about potential threats from foreign spies.

The candidates were urged to alert the FBI about any suspicious overtures to their campaigns, the officials said.

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/fbi-warned-trump-2016-russians-would-try-infiltrate-his-campaign-n830596

 

[SaintsInDome2006]

It’s funny how the smallest shred of info brings out “this is clearly all a witch hunt” yet the indictments piling up around the president is proof of nothing. 

And the president tweeted it in unison. Anyone have any rankings on where the XBT/webzilla/Gubarev nexus ranks on the importance of things? GRU officers have already been indicted. That happened. The DOJ has pleaded into evidence that GRU used other servers and malware to do their crimes. That's in the books and this happened months ago.

 

[Slapdash]

And the president tweeted it in unison. Anyone have any rankings on where the XBT/webzilla/Gubarev nexus ranks on the importance of things? GRU officers have already been indicted. That happened. The DOJ has pleaded into evidence that GRU used other servers and malware to do their crimes. That's in the books and this happened months ago.

But don't some still deny this happened?

 

[Sinn Fein]

Isn't the "telling the nice lady Trump would be willing to roll back the sanctions" essentially quid to the "dirt" pro quo, which spells "conspiracy against the United States"?

Not really.

Imagine this - how do you get Team Trump to take a meeting with the Russian attorney?  You promise them something - like Clinton dirt.

Now - when you show up to the meeting - you talk about adoptions, and how sanctions are crippling the Russian economy, and how that might affect the real estate market in Moscow.  Sorry, we have no dirt on Clinton, but we really wanted you to take this meeting.

 

[SaintsInDome2006]

But don't some still deny this happened?

Yes! and it's ridiculous. Even Bill Binney dropped it. Craig Murray is still running around in a DC forest trying to figure out where he dropped that thumb drive last I checked.

 

[Sinn Fein]

The warning came in the form of a high-level counterintelligence briefing by senior FBI officials, the officials said. A similar briefing was given to Hillary Clinton, they added. They said the briefings, which are commonly provided to presidential nominees, were designed to educate the candidates and their top aides about potential threats from foreign spies.

The candidates were urged to alert the FBI about any suspicious overtures to their campaigns, the officials said.

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/fbi-warned-trump-2016-russians-would-try-infiltrate-his-campaign-n830596

To be fair:  "In the weeks after he became the Republican nominee on July 19, 2016, Donald Trump was warned that foreign adversaries, including Russia, would probably try to spy on and infiltrate his campaign, according to multiple government officials familiar with the matter."

Trump Tower meeting was in June, and, "it went nowhere..."

 

[Slapdash]

To be fair:  "In the weeks after he became the Republican nominee on July 19, 2016, Donald Trump was warned that foreign adversaries, including Russia, would probably try to spy on and infiltrate his campaign, according to multiple government officials familiar with the matter."

Trump Tower meeting was in June, and, "it went nowhere..."

So why lie about the meeting?  Why not tell the FBI about that past interaction so they could investigate?  Why continue to try and do the Trump Tower Moscow deal?

 

[msommer]

Not really.

Imagine this - how do you get Team Trump to take a meeting with the Russian attorney?  You promise them something - like Clinton dirt.

Now - when you show up to the meeting - you talk about adoptions, and how sanctions are crippling the Russian economy, and how that might affect the real estate market in Moscow.  Sorry, we have no dirt on Clinton, but we really wanted you to take this meeting.

But then, mysteriously the dirt appeared (wikidump)

 

[Sinn Fein]

So why lie about the meeting?  Why not tell the FBI about that past interaction so they could investigate?  Why continue to try and do the Trump Tower Moscow deal?

Why lie about the meeting?  It looks bad to have taken a meeting with the Russians and we discussed lifting sanctions.

Why not tell the FBI?  It was a nothing meeting, and we got nothing from it.

Why continue to try and do the Trump Tower Moscow deal?  Seriously?  Why not continue to work a potentially lucrative deal?  Its all about the Rubles, baby!

 

[Sinn Fein]

But then, mysteriously the dirt appeared (wikidump)

Sure - and I am just trying to look at this in a different light - but can't you envision a scenario where Putin does that on his own - because he has ascertained its in his best interest to see Trump elected?  He knows that Trump is myopic in this area, and cares about ego and money - both of which Putin can arrange.  So, if Putin thinks he has Trump eating out of his hand, then Putin has every incentive to make Trump president.

Trump could have been willfully blind to the fact that Putin is leading him around by the nose - because Trump was focused on Trump and Trump's money, and has no ability to see big picture items.

 

[SaintsInDome2006]

Another day, another sealed search warrant...this one for Broidy from over the summer

https://www.propublica.org/article/federal-authorities-raided-trump-fundraisers-office-in-money-laundering-probe

The search warrant cites three potential crimes that authorities are investigating: conspiracy, money laundering and violations of the law barring covert lobbying on behalf of foreign officials. 

- This is also more from South Florida.

To echo SF's approach, one non-collusion theory that intrigues me is that this was basically a corruption free for all. It's a super team of grifters. Two of deze guyz were on the GOP Finance committee. It mostly makes me sick but it's also inherently hilarious if it turns out that it wasn't specifically just the Russians, but the Russians, the Saudis, the Qataris, the Chinese, the Israelis just saw this krewe as an open revolving door for corruption. It just so happens that the Russians offered technological and mass media assistance as part of the package.

 

[msommer]

Sure - and I am just trying to look at this in a different light - but can't you envision a scenario where Putin does that on his own - because he has ascertained its in his best interest to see Trump elected?  He knows that Trump is myopic in this area, and cares about ego and money - both of which Putin can arrange.  So, if Putin thinks he has Trump eating out of his hand, then Putin has every incentive to make Trump president.

Trump could have been willfully blind to the fact that Putin is leading him around by the nose - because Trump was focused on Trump and Trump's money, and has no ability to see big picture items.

Doesn't explain the polling data to Kilimnik (sp?) though (realize that's on Manafort, not the kids/in laws)

 

[msommer]

- This is also more from South Florida.

To echo SF's approach, one non-collusion theory that intrigues me is that this was basically a corruption free for all. It's a super team of grifters. Two of deze guyz were on the GOP Finance committee. It mostly makes me sick but it's also inherently hilarious if it turns out that it wasn't specifically just the Russians, but the Russians, the Saudis, the Qataris, the Chinese, the Israelis just saw this krewe as an open revolving door for corruption. It just so happens that the Russians offered technological and mass media assistance as part of the package.

This makes more sense to me than @Sinn Fein's "bumbling into collusion" theory (sorry, GB). And may be supported by the many separate attempts at creating backdoor communication channels.

It's almost as if there was a competition....

 

[Sinn Fein]

Doesn't explain the polling data to Kilimnik (sp?) though (realize that's on Manafort, not the kids/in laws)

Yeah - even in my most optimistic Trump POV - I struggle to see how Manafort was not aware of what was going on behind the scenes.

Millions in debt to Pro-russian Ukranians, and he works for Trump for free?  

Trump family - I can easily see as politically/worldly naive - they demonstrate that every day.

Manafort - he knows how the world works.

 

[SaintsInDome2006]

This makes more sense to me than @Sinn Fein's "bumbling into collusion" theory (sorry, GB). And may be supported by the many separate attempts at creating backdoor communication channels.

It's almost as if there was a competition....

Every one of these guys had their own deals. Cohen, Don Jr, Flynn, Broidy, etc. And yes they all competed to get to Trump. That's how he ran his business and that's how he runs his "hit me up" presidency. 

 

[Henry Ford]

Yeah - even in my most optimistic Trump POV - I struggle to see how Manafort was not aware of what was going on behind the scenes.

Millions in debt to Pro-russian Ukranians, and he works for Trump for free?  

Trump family - I can easily see as politically/worldly naive - they demonstrate that every day.

Manafort - he knows how the world works.

Oh, absolutely.  Manafort, Flynn, Bannon, etc I don’t believe have clean hands.  

 

[Sinn Fein]

- This is also more from South Florida.

To echo SF's approach, one non-collusion theory that intrigues me is that this was basically a corruption free for all. It's a super team of grifters. Two of deze guyz were on the GOP Finance committee. It mostly makes me sick but it's also inherently hilarious if it turns out that it wasn't specifically just the Russians, but the Russians, the Saudis, the Qataris, the Chinese, the Israelis just saw this krewe as an open revolving door for corruption. It just so happens that the Russians offered technological and mass media assistance as part of the package.

I don't think that is far-fetched - just look at what has happened since the election with State visits to Mar-a-lago, and everyone trying to lobby Trump staying in the Trump hotel in DC.

I think Trump probably looked at the Clinton's selling access to the Lincoln Bedroom and laughed when he realized there were so many more ways to sell influence.

(As for the Keystone Krewe - lets not forget that is exactly what Cohen said he was doing on his own - selling his "services" to anyone who would buy...Trump and his cronies operate without any kind of moral compass.)

 

[jomar]

Why not tell the FBI?  It was a nothing meeting, and we got nothing from it.

if they would have gotten something from it, I could see hiding it from the FBI.  the fact that it was a nothing meeting (if it truly was) would be a reason that they would've told the FBI, not the other way around.  at least to me that makes sense.  geez, now that you mention it, we got contacted by some Russians and had a meeting last month that went nowhere.  maybe you guys should check it out.

I know you're playing DA, but its pretty obvious that they a lot of them were in contact with Russians and all of them lied about it in an attempt to cover it up.  there's simply no good reason to cover it up if it was all a big nothingburger

 

[Sammy3469]

- This is also more from South Florida.

To echo SF's approach, one non-collusion theory that intrigues me is that this was basically a corruption free for all. It's a super team of grifters. Two of deze guyz were on the GOP Finance committee. It mostly makes me sick but it's also inherently hilarious if it turns out that it wasn't specifically just the Russians, but the Russians, the Saudis, the Qataris, the Chinese, the Israelis just saw this krewe as an open revolving door for corruption. It just so happens that the Russians offered technological and mass media assistance as part of the package.

Fwiw, I’m guessing this exceedly more right than it’s just Russia.  Every one of these yahoos is a Grade A grifter.

 

[moleculo]

- This is also more from South Florida.

To echo SF's approach, one non-collusion theory that intrigues me is that this was basically a corruption free for all. It's a super team of grifters. Two of deze guyz were on the GOP Finance committee. It mostly makes me sick but it's also inherently hilarious if it turns out that it wasn't specifically just the Russians, but the Russians, the Saudis, the Qataris, the Chinese, the Israelis just saw this krewe as an open revolving door for corruption. It just so happens that the Russians offered technological and mass media assistance as part of the package.

This makes a lot of sense. 

I'd add that it's possible that Putin did what he did because he wanted Hillary to lose as much as Trump to win... in which case, there is no collusion and no grand conspiracy.  Of course, that doesn't let Tram Trump off the hook - there's still massive amounts of corruption happening but the GOP don't seem to care about that.

ETA: this is by no means walking back on the Trump/Russia Collusion theory.  I'm just pointing out that lack of collusion doesn't mean we're done here.

 

[Sinn Fein]

there's simply no good reason to cover it up if it was all a big nothingburger

I do think we overlook ego too easily here.

Trump is a guy who lied about his inaugural audience - because his ego could not handle having fewer people than Obama.

Trump would never allow a narrative where his victory was in any way tainted by Russian involvement.  Just like a young kid's first instinct may be to lie about a transgression when caught - I think Trump's instincts here are to disavow any relationship with Russia that might have aided his campaign.

Again - I also think Trump, and the people whom he surrounds himself with, are a particularly unscrupulous bunch.  They would lie about anything and everything, if they thought they could get away with it.

 

[Slapdash]

- This is also more from South Florida.

To echo SF's approach, one non-collusion theory that intrigues me is that this was basically a corruption free for all. It's a super team of grifters. Two of deze guyz were on the GOP Finance committee. It mostly makes me sick but it's also inherently hilarious if it turns out that it wasn't specifically just the Russians, but the Russians, the Saudis, the Qataris, the Chinese, the Israelis just saw this krewe as an open revolving door for corruption. It just so happens that the Russians offered technological and mass media assistance as part of the package.

Well, we know these two at least

 

[ren hoek]

Trump said hundreds of times there was no contact with the Russians. That's a lie by his own affirmation. Why was he lying? Why didn't his camp contact the FBI as instructed?  This is fact, not conspiracy. 

Well, I guess he flat out lied then.  By that time, people had become pretty manic about Russians and “suspicious contacts” with Russians.  I don’t know why they lied (and I don’t think every statement of theirs wrt Russia was lying- I don’t believe Sessions lied for example)- the point is there is no evidence of an underlying conspiracy between them and Russia.  

People say this canard a lot- well why were they lying!  I don’t think they were in every instance, but even in the instances they were, there’s a very simple explanation- they were afraid of looking like they were in league with “the Russians,” they are liars anyway, and they thought it was an easier out than simply telling the truth.  

 

[squistion]

Judge William Pauley III, who is presiding over the Michael Cohen cases in federal court in New York, has ordered that redacted copies of the search warrant and affidavit for Cohen's office, home, and hotel be made public tomorrow.

https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/news/judge-orders-release-of-michael-cohen-search-warrant-materials

 

[moleculo]

Well, I guess he flat out lied then.  By that time, people had become pretty manic about Russians and “suspicious contacts” with Russians.  I don’t know why they lied (and I don’t think every statement of theirs wrt Russia was lying- I don’t believe Sessions lied for example)- the point is there is no evidence of an underlying conspiracy between them and Russia.   

People say this canard a lot- well why were they lying!  I don’t think they were in every instance, but even in the instances they were, there’s a very simple explanation- they were afraid of looking like they were in league with “the Russians,” they are liars anyway, and they thought it was an easier out than simply telling the truth.   

Trump had no choice but to lie.   I mean, in the fall of 2016, we knew Russia hacked the DNC, and Hillary publicly called him a Russian puppet (and for good reason, given all of his pro-Russian comments and the connections of his staff, including Manafort and Gates).  If Trump had admitted that he was actually working on Trump Tower Moscow at the time, it would have cost him the election * and his real estate deal.

*at least it should have.  Nothing seems to matter any more.

 

[Sheriff Bart]

Well, I guess he flat out lied then.  By that time, people had become pretty manic about Russians and “suspicious contacts” with Russians.  I don’t know why they lied (and I don’t think every statement of theirs wrt Russia was lying- I don’t believe Sessions lied for example)- the point is there is no evidence of an underlying conspiracy between them and Russia.  

People say this canard a lot- well why were they lying!  I don’t think they were in every instance, but even in the instances they were, there’s a very simple explanation- they were afraid of looking like they were in league with “the Russians,” they are liars anyway, and they thought it was an easier out than simply telling the truth.  

Or maybe, just maybe, that Gillette Razor thing and they ignored the direction of the FBI and lied hundreds of times because THEY ARE in bex with the Russians. 

 

[msommer]

Justin Elliott‏Verified account @JustinElliott

FollowFollow @JustinElliott

More

NEW: Feds raided Trump fundraiser Elliott Broidy’s office in money laundering probe https://www.propublica.org/article/federal-authorities-raided-trump-fundraisers-office-in-money-laundering-probe … from @RobertFaturechi and me

Oooooh. That's why grampa's been upset

 

[SaintsInDome2006]

Judge William Pauley III, who is presiding over the Michael Cohen cases in federal court in New York, has ordered that redacted copies of the search warrant and affidavit for Cohen's office, home, and hotel be made public tomorrow.

https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/news/judge-orders-release-of-michael-cohen-search-warrant-materials

I’ll throw this out as another candidate for Trump’s recent case of hemorrhoidal tweetering.

 

[Sinn Fein]

Oooooh. That's why grampa's been upset

Probably not:

Federal authorities raided the office of Republican fundraiser Elliott Broidy last summer, seeking records related to his dealings with foreign officials and Trump administration associates, according to a sealed search warrant obtained by ProPublica.

 

[msommer]

Probably not:

Federal authorities raided the office of Republican fundraiser Elliott Broidy last summer, seeking records related to his dealings with foreign officials and Trump administration associates, according to a sealed search warrant obtained by ProPublica.

Waiting for the real reason then...

 

[Henry Ford]

Well, I guess he flat out lied then.  By that time, people had become pretty manic about Russians and “suspicious contacts” with Russians.  I don’t know why they lied (and I don’t think every statement of theirs wrt Russia was lying- I don’t believe Sessions lied for example)- the point is there is no evidence of an underlying conspiracy between them and Russia.  

People say this canard a lot- well why were they lying!  I don’t think they were in every instance, but even in the instances they were, there’s a very simple explanation- they were afraid of looking like they were in league with “the Russians,” they are liars anyway, and they thought it was an easier out than simply telling the truth.  

So in July, 2016 everyone had become so manic about Russians that he had to lie about it? "I have nothing to do with Russia whatsoever.”

 

[Henry Ford]

Justin Elliott‏Verified account @JustinElliott

FollowFollow @JustinElliott

More

NEW: Feds raided Trump fundraiser Elliott Broidy’s office in money laundering probe https://www.propublica.org/article/federal-authorities-raided-trump-fundraisers-office-in-money-laundering-probe … from @RobertFaturechi and me

https://twitter.com/JustinElliott/status/1107603724061548545

Elliott Broidy... Elliott Broidy... where do I know that name?

Oh, right.

 

[msommer]

Elliott Broidy... Elliott Broidy... where do I know that name?

Oh, right.

Wasn't there another deputy finance chairman of the RNC in the news lately?

What's up with that?

 

[Rove!]

Now I may be an old corn chopper, but to me and my understanding, there are a lot of folks out there that are resistant to justice. They are misinformed and for whatever reason put Country or party or whatever other belief system first. They believe in their heart it is equal to justice.This is just wrongheaded and the truth reveals this.

What is justice? Justice is the process of understanding and knowledge of the facts. Process is Justice. Those that wish to short-tail or circumvent process because of beliefs are people that shouldn't be trusted with justice as that subverts the facts. Either you are for the understanding and knowledge of the facts or you are not. Make no mistake, facts are the process. They are not alternative or subjective. When revealed to the light of scrutiny by the many, justice is sustained as the truth.

the truth shall set you free!

So you agree that the Obama DOJ short circuited the process when then predisposed to declare that Hillary would not be prosecuted before knowing the facts and then ignored the statutes to do so....and further subverted the process by opening an investigation into a person and not a crime, and used clearly fictional and politically motivated narratives as a pretext....and illegally violated the process by defrauding the FISA court, unmasking private citizens, and giving outside contractors acccess to raw data searches.

it is specifically because of those who did not follow the process (“he won’t be President” “No, we’ll stop him”) that we are where we are....

 

[Slapdash]

Well, I guess he flat out lied then.  By that time, people had become pretty manic about Russians and “suspicious contacts” with Russians.  I don’t know why they lied (and I don’t think every statement of theirs wrt Russia was lying- I don’t believe Sessions lied for example)- the point is there is no evidence of an underlying conspiracy between them and Russia.  

People say this canard a lot- well why were they lying!  I don’t think they were in every instance, but even in the instances they were, there’s a very simple explanation- they were afraid of looking like they were in league with “the Russians,” they are liars anyway, and they thought it was an easier out than simply telling the truth.  

So in July, 2016 everyone had become so manic about Russians that he had to lie about it? "I have nothing to do with Russia whatsoever.”

Maybe Trump is a time-traveler