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The Russia Investigation: Trump Pardons Flynn (8 Viewers)
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Ramsay Hunt Experience
Footballguy
It’s a a huge cliche, but consider the following fill-in-the-blank statement.
“President _________ was implicated as an un-indicted co-conspirator yesterday in a scheme where he acted in concert with his personal lawyer and the owner of the National Inquirer in the final months of the campaign to buy the silence of a Playmate and a porn actress he had had affairs with in the past without triggering FEC oversight.”
Fill in that blank with Obama in 2010. We’d probably still be holding hearings.
Righetti
Footballguy
“President _________ was implicated as an un-indicted co-conspirator yesterday in a scheme where he wore a tan suit and put mustard on his fries without triggering FEC oversight.”
sho nuff
Footballguy
The comments.
HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA I hope they let you have a phone in prison, those tweets are going to be awesome
sho nuff
Footballguy
SaintsInDome2006
Footballguy
shader
Footballguy
Thunderlips
Footballguy
I would think that there wouldn't be any Republicans/anti Obamaites left as all of their collective heads, upon hearing the news, would have exploded in sheer enjoyment over the thought of holding hearings and putting Obama in jail.
IvanKaramazov
Footballguy
Come on, Trump's not that stupid. He's not going to get mad and say something stupid just because Cohen trolled him a little.
Oh.
)╯PAYING OFF 
randall146
Footballguy
NOTE - I WROTE THIS BEFORE SAINTS DIRECTED ME TO THE PLEA AGREMENT BELOW
As far as I can tell, Cohen’s written plea agreement has not been publically revealed. It is not available on the court docket, which means either it hasn’t been filed or was filed under seal.
So yesterday’s reporting that it doesn’t include cooperation language is premature.
Although, as discussed yesterday, the inclusion of absence of cooperation language doesn’t necessarily indicate the existence of absence of a cooperation agreement.
For example, if they believe that someone might reach out to Cohen at this point to witness or evidence tamper, they wouldn’t want to publically reveal cooperation language
As far as I can tell, Cohen’s written plea agreement has not been publically revealed. It is not available on the court docket, which means either it hasn’t been filed or was filed under seal.
So yesterday’s reporting that it doesn’t include cooperation language is premature.
Although, as discussed yesterday, the inclusion of absence of cooperation language doesn’t necessarily indicate the existence of absence of a cooperation agreement.
For example, if they believe that someone might reach out to Cohen at this point to witness or evidence tamper, they wouldn’t want to publically reveal cooperation language
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randall146
Footballguy
Is this real? Because it’s the first intentionally funny thing I’ve ever heard Trump say. Bravo!
SaintsInDome2006
Footballguy
Weebs210
Footballguy
This Count Eight transaction surrounds a payment to Stephanie Clifford (Stormy Daniels) of $130,000 for a nuisance claim. Who says it is a campaign contribution? The SDNY does, no-one else. Not even the FEC considers this a campaign contribution.
Count eight is a political charge/plea specifically included for the purpose of pulling Donald Trump into the SDNY Cohen case. There is no FEC violation here. *Note it is not the Federal Election Commission making the claim, only the SDNY prosecutors.
Despite the media hype it is not a campaign contribution for a candidate to instruct his attorney to pay-off a nuisance claim to avoid any issues or embarrassment. It is not a campaign donation for Donald Trump to reimburse his attorney for paying the claim.
♦The issue of the Cohen payment being an “in kind” campaign contribution is the bottom line question which underpins the charge.
There is no FEC rule or law that says a candidate cannot pay-off an accuser to avoid further issues, a nuisance claim. Paying an accuser to avoid controversy or embarrassment, is no different than a candidate buying an American made car -with personal funds- to gain the beneficial public optics of not driving a foreign car. Neither expense example makes the payment an aspect of am “in kind” campaign contribution.
There is no connected claim that President Trump used campaign funds to repay his attorney for eliminating the nuisance claim. President Trump, a businessman, used his own business income to repay his attorney; an attorney on a monthly retainer.
The entire charge of Cohen making a campaign contribution, or campaign finance violation, is a manufactured claim, made only by the SDNY, for political benefit.
Former FEC Chairman Bradley Smith explains the details of the non-issue to radio host Mark Levin.
Lolol
Count eight is a political charge/plea specifically included for the purpose of pulling Donald Trump into the SDNY Cohen case. There is no FEC violation here. *Note it is not the Federal Election Commission making the claim, only the SDNY prosecutors.
Despite the media hype it is not a campaign contribution for a candidate to instruct his attorney to pay-off a nuisance claim to avoid any issues or embarrassment. It is not a campaign donation for Donald Trump to reimburse his attorney for paying the claim.
♦The issue of the Cohen payment being an “in kind” campaign contribution is the bottom line question which underpins the charge.
There is no FEC rule or law that says a candidate cannot pay-off an accuser to avoid further issues, a nuisance claim. Paying an accuser to avoid controversy or embarrassment, is no different than a candidate buying an American made car -with personal funds- to gain the beneficial public optics of not driving a foreign car. Neither expense example makes the payment an aspect of am “in kind” campaign contribution.
There is no connected claim that President Trump used campaign funds to repay his attorney for eliminating the nuisance claim. President Trump, a businessman, used his own business income to repay his attorney; an attorney on a monthly retainer.
The entire charge of Cohen making a campaign contribution, or campaign finance violation, is a manufactured claim, made only by the SDNY, for political benefit.
Former FEC Chairman Bradley Smith explains the details of the non-issue to radio host Mark Levin.
Lolol
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SaintsInDome2006
Footballguy
A former federal judge commenting on MSNBC made the point that most defense attorneys usually emerge from a loss saying they will appeal but Manafort's lawyer said that they would be exploring their options.timschochet said:
Trump hanging Cohen out to to dry on that ridiculous privilege review, which Cohen had to pay for, was a mistake. It did delay what happened yesterday though. At some point maybe Manafort gets disgusted that he has been waging this time delay game plan and for what? So he can slog it out to the tune of hundreds of thousands of dollars? Obviously PM has some very scary people he's dealt with, and it's an open question who's been paying the freight on all this, but he's closer looking to financial ruin and life in jail. I guess I'm just saying I wouldn't count PM out of the cooperation-for-reduction sweepstakes.
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Mario Kart
Footballguy
SaintsInDome2006
Footballguy
The US Attorney for SDNY was personally interviewed and nominated by Donald Trump. What political benefit do you think he (or his staff) is seeking?
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SaintsInDome2006
Footballguy
Technically, it was Trump Org.
Matt Schlapp said this as well so I can only imagine this is a talking point, or will be. But the reality is that this is in the books, Cohen has pleaded guilty on this. Done deal.
I do not see how this is different from the John Edwards situation. Edwards was indicted for just this. But he won at trial because he was able to prove to some of the jurors that he did what he did for personal reasons (and actually I think Noonan made good points on that). However he did not have to deal with someone like Cohen actually implicating him in the crime.
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Mario Kart
Footballguy
Delusional gonna delusion.
shader
Footballguy
I know you thought that was funny..but most of those things saw lives ruined and many people killed.
Weebs210
Footballguy
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randall146
Footballguy
Thanks!
My quick takes:
1) There is no cooperation language in the agreement itself, but there is mention of separate “proffer agreement” that may have been entered. This confirms what we already knew - that Cohen has already met with prosecutors and agents and told them what he knows (that’s what “proffer” means).
The plea agreement also makes clear that the proffer agreement may contain language that controls this plea agreement as well. So essentially there may be a separate side agreement as to cooperation in that proffer, which is now incorporated into this plea agreement.
2) This plea agreement is “pardon proof.” There is specific language stating that if these convictions are vacated for any reason - which would include a pardon - then the government can re-charge Cohen with any crime, including any crimes that they’ve agreed not to charge so far.
In other words, a pardon on these charges could result in prosecution for more, and more serious, charges. Possibly by state authorities as well.
So that’s why Lanny can confidently say Cohen would never accept a pardon.
3) This agreement doesn’t restrict either party to arguing the guidelines. Both sides are free to argue for sentences higher or lower than the guidelines, including no jail. So Cohen could still cooperate his way to freedom.
Note - This last part conflicts with some reporting from yesterday saying Cohen was agreeing to at least x months in prison, so either something different was said live in court, or the reporter read the plea agreement incorrectly
SaintsInDome2006
Footballguy
I was just responding to your points, that's all. I think the important thing is that the right result is ultimately reached.
TobiasFunke
Footballguy
I wonder what accounts for the disparity between the lack of sympathy in some circles for desperate people who commit the misdemeanor crime of illegal entry to the point where they deem it a national crisis and label those people as "illegal," and the defense and support for convicted felons and unindicted co-conspirators in those same circles.
How can we explain this disparity? Is there something about those felons that sets them apart from those who commit the misdemeanor? Truly it is a mystery.
How can we explain this disparity? Is there something about those felons that sets them apart from those who commit the misdemeanor? Truly it is a mystery.
proteus126
Footballguy
Skoo
Footballguy
Donald J. TrumpVerified account @realDonaldTrump 1m1 minute ago
I feel very badly for Paul Manafort and his wonderful family. “Justice” took a 12 year old tax case, among other things, applied tremendous pressure on him and, unlike Michael Cohen, he refused to “break” - make up stories in order to get a “deal.” Such respect for a brave man!
I feel very badly for Paul Manafort and his wonderful family. “Justice” took a 12 year old tax case, among other things, applied tremendous pressure on him and, unlike Michael Cohen, he refused to “break” - make up stories in order to get a “deal.” Such respect for a brave man!
Weebs210
Footballguy
Fair enough. There was no FEC violation so your so called "right result" will not be reached.
SaintsInDome2006
Footballguy
Personally I think Noonan's avenue about Trump having personal not political motivations is a better one. - I have a hard time getting around the fact that Cohen has already pleaded guilty to this, I don't think his lawyer has him pleading guilty to non-crimes.
SaintsInDome2006
Footballguy
And that. I can't remember the details but yeah I think that was a factor in favor of Edwards.
TobiasFunke
Footballguy
This is like saying that if someone is convicted of manslaughter for poisoning a water supply that there was no EPA violation so the so called "right result" will not be reached. Criminal convictions are far more serious than regulatory violations, and the two are not necessarily related.
Weebs210
Footballguy
He mainly plead guilty for the 6 actual crimes, the seventh can be argued and the eighth is purely political if you can look at this without being biased. I could see reduced time being given for allowing the eighth to be added on for theatrics. Unfortunately as the posters on this sub section, Peter from the FBI, and the media have shown....getting an unbiased veiw is pretty difficult.
SaintsInDome2006
Footballguy
Again - using terms like "rat", "turned", "break" for associates - this is how criminals talk.
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This is the president calling a convicted felon respectful and brave. Congress is shameful to start impeachment immediatelyDonald J. TrumpVerified account @realDonaldTrump 1m1 minute ago
I feel very badly for Paul Manafort and his wonderful family. “Justice” took a 12 year old tax case, among other things, applied tremendous pressure on him and, unlike Michael Cohen, he refused to “break” - make up stories in order to get a “deal.” Such respect for a brave man!
Don Quixote
Footballguy
I don't think it has been determined anywhere that there was no FEC violation. Last I read, a complaint was still open. The FEC has been understaffed and subject to partisan gridlock for years.
shader
Footballguy
Cohen pleading guilty is certainly the odd thing in this. I'd assume that time will clearly show why he pleaded guilty. It's difficult to reconcile from the "right" point of view. I'd assume their primary defense will be that this is political grandstanding and Cohen was pressured into this by the deep state.
Godsbrother
Footballguy
This "Law and Order" president sure seems to have a lot of sympathy for a man found guilty on eight counts of financial crimes including tax fraud.Donald J. TrumpVerified account @realDonaldTrump 1m1 minute ago
I feel very badly for Paul Manafort and his wonderful family. “Justice” took a 12 year old tax case, among other things, applied tremendous pressure on him and, unlike Michael Cohen, he refused to “break” - make up stories in order to get a “deal.” Such respect for a brave man!
Ignoramus
Footballguy
This is actually funny.
Too bad he didn't heed his own advice. Remember, this leg of the investigation all started because Cohen stupidly used his own name on the shell company he used for the Stormy Daniel's NDA.
randall146
Footballguy
Yesno.Matthias said:
A plea agreement is a contract between the prosecutor and defendant. Defendant agrees to plead guilty and in exchange prosecutor agrees to ________ . So the contract needs to include the all obligations and promises of both parties.
But a contract can still reference side agreements. For example, in trump’s hush payment non-disclosure agreements there were side agreements designating who the parties actually were
I’m this case Cohen’s plea agreement specifically references a controlling side agreement. (“Except as provided in any written proffer agreement that may have been entered into . . .”)
Second, 99% of cooperation “agreements” aren’t really agreements at all, because they are totally at the discretion of the prosecutor.
When they are included in a plea agreement they say something like “defendant understands that the Government at its discretion may file a motion for a sentence below the guideline range for substantial assistance. Defendant understands that the decision to file such a motion, and the extent of any reduction, is solely at the discretion of the government. Defendant further understands that whether such motion is granted, and to what extent, is solely at the discretion of the court”
So as you can see the defendant is actually promised nothing at all. So it is not part of the “consideration” for the defendant to enter into the plea agreement. So there’s not actually any reason to put it into a written plea agreement because it’s not a promise to the defendant.
sho nuff
Footballguy
Seems believing that narration by weebs (from what Saints has quoted) is showing that you have to believe a judge Trump interviewed is doing things for partisan reasons.
Of course...seems some believe everyone is "in on it".
Long Ball Larry
Footballguy
i don't think that he thinks it's funny. he thinks that the priorities of the justice system are out of whack because time is spent on the Cohen prosecution and not the other offenses.
rodg12
Footballguy
Cohen's lawyer was on CNN last night and says Cohen has direct knowledge of Trump knowing about the hacked emails before they were released.
Don Quixote
Footballguy
Going with the "he was only convicted on 8 counts" defense.
Donald J. Trump
@realDonaldTrump
A large number of counts, ten, could not even be decided in the Paul Manafort case. Witch Hunt!
9:34 AM - 22 Aug 2018
Donald J. Trump
@realDonaldTrump
A large number of counts, ten, could not even be decided in the Paul Manafort case. Witch Hunt!
9:34 AM - 22 Aug 2018
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SaintsInDome2006
Footballguy
Thanks, it's very cool having this kind of insight here.
Fwiw if any interested here is the charging document.
