The War in Gaza (1 Viewer)

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I figure if we drop enough weapons on both sides of the fence, the situation should resolve itself

I thought you didn't want to be involved.

That wouldn't involve much work/involvement and would certainly accelerate the process.

 

[pantherclub]

Wait, the US is sending money to Israel?

Why?

We guarantee loans to Israel.

And the answer is, so they will continue to buy our products, including large weapons and planes and stuff that keeps our aerospace industry afloat.

Oh God please tell me you dont actually believe this.

We give them money to buy our products to keep an entire industry "afloat". Holy crap that is rich

 

[timschochet]

We give about $400 million a year to the Palestinians, mostly to Fatah in the West Bank, but some to Hamas in Gaza. This is typically humanitarian aid: food and medicine

We give around $3.1 billion a year to Israel, mostly in the form of loan guarantees, almost all of it military aid- actually, we're subsidizing our own companies who are selling weapons to Israel.

We spend around $50 billion a year in total foreign aid to all countries.

 

[timschochet]

Wait, the US is sending money to Israel?

Why?

We guarantee loans to Israel.

And the answer is, so they will continue to buy our products, including large weapons and planes and stuff that keeps our aerospace industry afloat.

Oh God please tell me you dont actually believe this.

We give them money to buy our products to keep an entire industry "afloat". Holy crap that is rich

I'm telling you what the companies tell our congresspeople. Most of the AIPAC lobbyists are also lobbyists for the big aerospace companies. That's no coincidence.

 

[pantherclub]

We give about $400 million a year to the Palestinians, mostly to Fatah in the West Bank, but some to Hamas in Gaza. This is typically humanitarian aid: food and medicine

We give around $3.1 billion a year to Israel, mostly in the form of loan guarantees, almost all of it military aid- actually, we're subsidizing our own companies who are selling weapons to Israel.

We spend around $50 billion a year in total foreign aid to all countries.

So yeah, we should you know just keep the money ourselves.

 

[pantherclub]

Wait, the US is sending money to Israel?

Why?

We guarantee loans to Israel.

And the answer is, so they will continue to buy our products, including large weapons and planes and stuff that keeps our aerospace industry afloat.

Oh God please tell me you dont actually believe this.

We give them money to buy our products to keep an entire industry "afloat". Holy crap that is rich

I'm telling you what the companies tell our congresspeople. Most of the AIPAC lobbyists are also lobbyists for the big aerospace companies. That's no coincidence.

Why in the hell would they say otherwise?

 

[RCon]

At some point an Israeli leader is going to have to say, "Firing back isn't getting us anywhere; it's only making things worse; lets try something else."

I don't know when that point will be.

I haven't seen you post another viable solution.

I don't have one- yet. I wish I did. I only know that THIS solution falls under what Einstein calls the definition of insanity.

1. Your logic is incorrect here. Sometimes there is no "good" solution, only a "least bad" solution. Continuing to implement the "least bad" solution is not wrong unless there actually is a better solution.

2. The "definition of insanity" requires that one expect different results. Who is expecting different results? Perhaps the aim is simply to prevent the situation from getting worse.

That's if you believe it's a solution at all. Do you believe that bombing Gaza is a solution?

Fine, replace the word "solution" with "course of action". Happier?

 

[timschochet]

We give about $400 million a year to the Palestinians, mostly to Fatah in the West Bank, but some to Hamas in Gaza. This is typically humanitarian aid: food and medicine

We give around $3.1 billion a year to Israel, mostly in the form of loan guarantees, almost all of it military aid- actually, we're subsidizing our own companies who are selling weapons to Israel.

We spend around $50 billion a year in total foreign aid to all countries.

So yeah, we should you know just keep the money ourselves.

If you're asking me to defend this system, don't, because I can't.

But you need to realize that Israel is one small cog in our military-industrial complex. The Israelis just happen to be good customers because they use the weapons we sell them, guaranteeing that we will always be able to sell them more. But we also sell weapons to Poland, the Ukraine, Georgia, Saudi Arabia, India, Pakistan, and a lot of this is based on government guarantees. If you think there is a certain madness to us exporting death and destruction around the globe, I'm not going to disagree with you. But we have competitors who would love to jump in if we ever stop doing it.

 

[Politician Spock]

We give about $400 million a year to the Palestinians, mostly to Fatah in the West Bank, but some to Hamas in Gaza. This is typically humanitarian aid: food and medicine

We give around $3.1 billion a year to Israel, mostly in the form of loan guarantees, almost all of it military aid- actually, we're subsidizing our own companies who are selling weapons to Israel.

We spend around $50 billion a year in total foreign aid to all countries.

So yeah, we should you know just keep the money ourselves.

If you're asking me to defend this system, don't, because I can't. But you need to realize that Israel is one small cog in our military-industrial complex. The Israelis just happen to be good customers because they use the weapons we sell them, guaranteeing that we will always be able to sell them more. But we also sell weapons to Poland, the Ukraine, Georgia, Saudi Arabia, India, Pakistan, and a lot of this is based on government guarantees. If you think there is a certain madness to us exporting death and destruction around the globe, I'm not going to disagree with you. But we have competitors who would love to jump in if we ever stop doing it.

America is a finely oiled killing machine.

Pass me a pack of Twizzlers. I want to spend $8 more of US blood/oil money before I go in to the theater to watch the Edge of Tomorrow, a fake Hollywood production of the reality of living in Gaza, Iraq, Iran, Syria, and the Ukraine right now.

 

[Fennis]

How many Israeli casualties due to said Hamas rocket strikes?

None.

But try to imagine our national reaction if Mexico started lobbying missiles into this country, and their leaders shouted "Death to America!" What would we do?

Are we occupying Mexico?

Yes.

 

[Dippa]

When you say "get involved", are you talking about putting troops on the ground? Because if so, I agree.

But if "getting involved" means using our money, and diplomatic efforts, to help bring peace and stability then I say damn right we need to get involved and stay involved.

Tim, you just said on the last page that you support our money going to Israel, and now you're claiming that you can't defend that position.

Israel receives about half of our military aid, far more than those other countries you listed combined. They're far from a "small cog".

 

[Fennis]

When you say "get involved", are you talking about putting troops on the ground? Because if so, I agree.

But if "getting involved" means using our money, and diplomatic efforts, to help bring peace and stability then I say damn right we need to get involved and stay involved.

Tim, you just said on the last page that you support our money going to Israel, and now you're claiming that you can't defend that position.

Israel receives about half of our military aid, far more than those other countries you listed combined. They're far from a "small cog".

There's no way that Israel receives half of the total military aid that the US gives. Got a link?

ETA: No doubt its a large amount and its reasonable to say it is too much, but its not close to the aid provided to Afghanistan for example.

 

[jon_mx]

I think the answer is a beer summit.

 

[Fennis]

I am not sure if the bombings are helping or hurting Hams, but Obama's words are helping them.

In a war between Muslims and Jews you think Obama is helping ham?

 

[jon_mx]

I am not sure if the bombings are helping or hurting Hams, but Obama's words are helping them.

In a war between Muslims and Jews you think Obama is helping ham?

hamas.....kids, don't text and drive. Whether it is his intention or not, Obama call for a cease-fire from Israel is not helping the cause.

 

[BobbyLayne]

When you say "get involved", are you talking about putting troops on the ground? Because if so, I agree.

But if "getting involved" means using our money, and diplomatic efforts, to help bring peace and stability then I say damn right we need to get involved and stay involved.

Tim, you just said on the last page that you support our money going to Israel, and now you're claiming that you can't defend that position.

Israel receives about half of our military aid, far more than those other countries you listed combined. They're far from a "small cog".

There's no way that Israel receives half of the total military aid that the US gives. Got a link?

ETA: No doubt its a large amount and its reasonable to say it is too much, but its not close to the aid provided to Afghanistan for example.

$50B total Foreign Aid, $17B was military (to 150 different countries). Israel received $3.4B and $3.6B total aid in 2012 and 2013, not sure how much was military. Afghanistan received $9B in military aid a few year ago, not sure if that has slowed down.

 

[Dippa]

When you say "get involved", are you talking about putting troops on the ground? Because if so, I agree.

But if "getting involved" means using our money, and diplomatic efforts, to help bring peace and stability then I say damn right we need to get involved and stay involved.

Tim, you just said on the last page that you support our money going to Israel, and now you're claiming that you can't defend that position.

Israel receives about half of our military aid, far more than those other countries you listed combined. They're far from a "small cog".

There's no way that Israel receives half of the total military aid that the US gives. Got a link?

ETA: No doubt its a large amount and its reasonable to say it is too much, but its not close to the aid provided to Afghanistan for example.

Below is the data I'm looking at. They don't include Afghanistan, and I'm sure a lot more was spent there, but that is an active war zone in which we are directly involved.

http://www.state.gov/t/pm/ppa/sat/c14560.htm

 

[BobbyLayne]

When you say "get involved", are you talking about putting troops on the ground? Because if so, I agree.

But if "getting involved" means using our money, and diplomatic efforts, to help bring peace and stability then I say damn right we need to get involved and stay involved.

Tim, you just said on the last page that you support our money going to Israel, and now you're claiming that you can't defend that position.

Israel receives about half of our military aid, far more than those other countries you listed combined. They're far from a "small cog".

There's no way that Israel receives half of the total military aid that the US gives. Got a link?

ETA: No doubt its a large amount and its reasonable to say it is too much, but its not close to the aid provided to Afghanistan for example.

Below is the data I'm looking at. They don't include Afghanistan, and I'm sure a lot more was spent there, but that is an active war zone in which we are directly involved.

http://www.state.gov/t/pm/ppa/sat/c14560.htm

That Foreign Military Financing, which is a component of foreign military aid.

 

[Fennis]

When you say "get involved", are you talking about putting troops on the ground? Because if so, I agree.

But if "getting involved" means using our money, and diplomatic efforts, to help bring peace and stability then I say damn right we need to get involved and stay involved.

Tim, you just said on the last page that you support our money going to Israel, and now you're claiming that you can't defend that position.

Israel receives about half of our military aid, far more than those other countries you listed combined. They're far from a "small cog".

There's no way that Israel receives half of the total military aid that the US gives. Got a link?

ETA: No doubt its a large amount and its reasonable to say it is too much, but its not close to the aid provided to Afghanistan for example.

Below is the data I'm looking at. They don't include Afghanistan, and I'm sure a lot more was spent there, but that is an active war zone in which we are directly involved.

http://www.state.gov/t/pm/ppa/sat/c14560.htm

I think what's also missing from those numbers is military bases (which is probably the difference between your $5B and the $17B BL stated above). We provide a tremendous amount of aid in form of bases to Europe, South Korea, etc. and other military presence.

 

[Dippa]

When you say "get involved", are you talking about putting troops on the ground? Because if so, I agree.

But if "getting involved" means using our money, and diplomatic efforts, to help bring peace and stability then I say damn right we need to get involved and stay involved.

Tim, you just said on the last page that you support our money going to Israel, and now you're claiming that you can't defend that position.

Israel receives about half of our military aid, far more than those other countries you listed combined. They're far from a "small cog".

There's no way that Israel receives half of the total military aid that the US gives. Got a link?

ETA: No doubt its a large amount and its reasonable to say it is too much, but its not close to the aid provided to Afghanistan for example.

Below is the data I'm looking at. They don't include Afghanistan, and I'm sure a lot more was spent there, but that is an active war zone in which we are directly involved.

http://www.state.gov/t/pm/ppa/sat/c14560.htm

That Foreign Military Financing, which is a component of foreign military aid.

Okay, fair enough. I guess it is 20%, per your numbers. I still stand by my overall point.

 

[Koya]

It almost seems as if Israel waits patiently for Hamas to overstep and then uses that brief period before the world clamour and pressure begins mount to prove a military equivalent of a stock market "correction" by taking out a bunch of primary targets.

As of now, those targets are largely toast and, as noted, the pressure is mounting. And Hamas is getting creamed. I think this specific cycle is to a point where both parties will want out.

Until next time, of course.

 

[timschochet]

When you say "get involved", are you talking about putting troops on the ground? Because if so, I agree.

But if "getting involved" means using our money, and diplomatic efforts, to help bring peace and stability then I say damn right we need to get involved and stay involved.

Tim, you just said on the last page that you support our money going to Israel, and now you're claiming that you can't defend that position.

Israel receives about half of our military aid, far more than those other countries you listed combined. They're far from a "small cog".

What I can't defend is the entire system of loaning money to countries so that they can buy our weapons. It's not specific to Israel. What I can defend is using our monies given to both Israel and the Palestinians to achieve diplomatic goals. And yes, Israel which receives around 6% of the entire foreign aid package is a small cog.

 

[Yankee23Fan]

Jack Ryan solved this in the span of like 6 months in office.

 

[SaintsInDome2006]

Didn't this all get started when Hamas kidnapped the 3 Israeli teens?

 

[Yankee23Fan]

Didn't this all get started when Hamas kidnapped the 3 Israeli teens?

I think you're off by about 3 thousand years.

 

[SaintsInDome2006]

Didn't this all get started when Hamas kidnapped the 3 Israeli teens?

I think you're off by about 3 thousand years.

Ha yeah, I meant most recently this particular go-round.

http://news.msn.com/world/israel-hamas-trade-violence-over-teen-killings

 

[Yankee23Fan]

Didn't this all get started when Hamas kidnapped the 3 Israeli teens?

I think you're off by about 3 thousand years.

Ha yeah, I meant most recently this particular go-round.

http://news.msn.com/world/israel-hamas-trade-violence-over-teen-killings

I know. But there are some really really long memories over there.

 

[Christo]

How many Israeli casualties due to said Hamas rocket strikes?

None.

But try to imagine our national reaction if Mexico started lobbying missiles into this country, and their leaders shouted "Death to America!" What would we do?

Are we occupying Mexico?

Depends how you define Mexico.

 

[BobbyLayne]

Jack Ryan solved this in the span of like 6 months in office.

Took Barlett six years on The West Wing. What was Ryan's plan?

 

[tri-man 47]

It almost seems as if Israel waits patiently for Hamas to overstep and then uses that brief period before the world clamour and pressure begins mount to prove a military equivalent of a stock market "correction" by taking out a bunch of primary targets.

As of now, those targets are largely toast and, as noted, the pressure is mounting. And Hamas is getting creamed. I think this specific cycle is to a point where both parties will want out.

Until next time, of course.

My sense is that Israel really isn't in the mood for yet another "next time," particularly with the longer reach of Hamas' bombs. They seem to view this opportunity as a two-fer ...eliminate the destructive threat and punish Hamas enough that they eliminate them as a political threat as well. This could be a message to ISIS as well - that you really don't want to mess around with Israel.

 

[Yankee23Fan]

Jack Ryan solved this in the span of like 6 months in office.

Took Barlett six years on The West Wing. What was Ryan's plan?

Killed a really bad guy on live TV then forced the Un to support a plan to make Jerusalem an international city policed and controlled by the un. and he was cool the whole time.

 

[timschochet]

Jack Ryan solved this in the span of like 6 months in office.

Took Barlett six years on The West Wing. What was Ryan's plan?

Killed a really bad guy on live TV then forced the Un to support a plan to make Jerusalem an international city policed and controlled by the un. and he was cool the whole time.

Hmm. That sounds a lot like Bartlett's plan.

 

[datonn]

Read this slowly. Really slowly.

It.is.not.any.of.our.concern.not.one.bit

We shouldnt get involved in regional affairs just because our precious gas prices may go up. Christ dude, how many wars/conflicts do we need to get in before you realize it never and I mean never works out in our favor.

Yet it was our, Great Britain's, and the Soviet Union's concern to displace thousands of Muslim tribal families who had occupied what is now the State of Israel for ~20-30+ previous generations...so that the State of Israel could be (re)formed?

I'm all-for supporting the Israelis as our allies. Truth be told, I am part-Jewish myself! But it became our fight the moment we told folks to G.T.F.O. so that we could solve one huge problem and at least partially try to right a horrible wrong that occurred in WWII. But in the process, we created another enormous problem. And committed another horrible wrong (displacing thousands upon thousands of individuals from the only home their families had known for centuries).

Can you imagine if China and Russia announced that they were going to move all the refugees from nations embroiled in civil war and genocide in Africa to Alabama...make that its own country, while telling all those Confederate flag-waving locals to G.T.F.O. of the State that their ancestors had called home since the 18th/19th Century? You don't think that a percentage of them wouldn't be kidnapping and killing folks who took "their" land? Fanning the verbal flames to a white-hot level that would make the Tea Party fringe (loons) look moderate/reasonable by comparison? Yelling "Death to China/Russia" into bullhorns? Firing rockets from directly across the border in MS, TN or GA?

But that's "different," right?! Because Israel is our ally. Just like what our nation did to tribe after tribe across most of our nation is "different" too?!

 

[msommer]

You are making a good point, Datonn, but again we end up against that hard question, 'so what do we do about it?'.

We've (I use we widely as in the larger part of the western world) been trying to mediate for many years and this is as far as we have got.

We can't realistically demilitarize the area, we can't defuse the situation as the US in particular is known as siding with Israel, we can't enter militarily without setting the region even further aflame (and alienating our suppliers of oil further).

So we sell weapons to Israel and pretend to be shocked when they use them, particularly when the tactics of the Palestinians generates lots of civilian casualties or when Israel retaliates indiscriminately (the difference between the latter two is probably more a matter of view point than a debatable line)

Do you see another realistic way forward?

 

[Christo]

There is no mediation when one side takes the position that the other side doesn't have the right to exist.

Excuse Me, But Israel Has No Right To ExistBy Sharmine Narwani - Thu, 2012-05-17 21:46- Sandbox
The phrase “right to exist” entered my consciousness in the 1990s just as the concept of the two-state solution became part of our collective lexicon. In any debate at university, when a Zionist was out of arguments, those three magic words were invoked to shut down the conversation with an outraged, “are you saying Israel doesn’t have the right to exist??”

Of course you couldn’t challenge Israel’s right to exist – that was like saying you were negating a fundamental Jewish right to have…rights, with all manner of Holocaust guilt thrown in for effect.

Except of course the Holocaust is not my fault – or that of Palestinians. The cold-blooded program of ethnically cleansing Europe of its Jewish population has been so callously and opportunistically utilized to justify the ethnic cleansing of the Palestinian Arab nation, that it leaves me utterly unmoved. I have even caught myself – shock - rolling my eyes when I hear Holocaust and Israel in the same sentence.

What moves me instead in this post-two-state era, is the sheer audacity of Israel even existing.

What a fantastical idea, this notion that a bunch of rank outsiders from another continent could appropriate an existing, populated nation for themselves – and convince the “global community” that it was the moral thing to do. I’d laugh at the chutzpah if this wasn’t so serious.

Even more brazen is the mass ethnic cleansing of the indigenous Palestinian population by persecuted Jews, newly arrived from their own experience of being ethnically cleansed.

But what is truly frightening is the psychological manipulation of the masses into believing that Palestinians are somehow dangerous – “terrorists” intent on “driving Jews into the sea.” As someone who makes a living through words, I find the use of language in creating perceptions to be intriguing. This practice – often termed “public diplomacy” has become an essential tool in the world of geopolitics. Words, after all, are the building blocks of our psychology.

Take, for example, the way we have come to view the Palestinian-Israeli “dispute” and any resolution of this enduring conflict. And here I borrow liberally from a previous article of mine…

The United States and Israel have created the global discourse on this issue, setting stringent parameters that grow increasingly narrow regarding the content and direction of this debate. Anything discussed outside the set parameters has, until recently, widely been viewed as unrealistic, unproductive and even subversive.

Participation in the debate is limited only to those who prescribe to its main tenets: the acceptance of Israel, its regional hegemony and its qualitative military edge; acceptance of the shaky logic upon which the Jewish state's claim to Palestine is based; and acceptance of the inclusion and exclusion of certain regional parties, movements and governments in any solution to the conflict.

Words like dove, hawk, militant, extremist, moderates, terrorists, Islamo-fascists, rejectionists, existential threat, holocaust-denier, mad mullah determine the participation of solution partners -- and are capable of instantly excluding others.

Then there is the language that preserves "Israel's Right To Exist" unquestioningly: anything that invokes the Holocaust, anti-Semitism and the myths about historic Jewish rights to the land bequeathed to them by the Almighty – as though God was in the real-estate business. This language seeks not only to ensure that a Jewish connection to Palestine remains unquestioned, but importantly, seeks to punish and marginalize those who tackle the legitimacy of this modern colonial-settler experiment.

But this group-think has led us nowhere. It has obfuscated, distracted, deflected, ducked, and diminished, and we are no closer to a satisfactory conclusion…because the premise is wrong.

There is no fixing this problem. This is the kind of crisis in which you cut your losses, realize the error of your ways and reverse course. Israel is the problem. It is the last modern-day colonial-settler experiment, conducted at a time when these projects were being unraveled globally.

There is no “Palestinian-Israeli conflict” – that suggests some sort of equality in power, suffering, and negotiable tangibles, and there is no symmetry whatsoever in this equation. Israel is the Occupier and Oppressor; Palestinians are the Occupied and Oppressed. What is there to negotiate? Israel holds all the chips. They can give back some land, property, rights, but even that is an absurdity – what about everything else? What about ALL the land, property and rights? Why do they get to keep anything – how is the appropriation of land and property prior to 1948 fundamentally different from the appropriation of land and property on this arbitrary 1967 date?

Why are the colonial-settlers prior to 1948 any different from those who colonized and settled after 1967?

Let me correct myself. Palestinians do hold one chip that Israel salivates over – the one big demand at the negotiating table that seems to hold up everything else. Israel craves recognition of its “right to exist.”

But you do exist - don’t you, Israel?

Israel fears “delegitimization” more than anything else. Behind the velvet curtain lies a state built on myths and narratives, protected only by a military behemoth, billions of dollars in US assistance and a lone UN Security Council veto. Nothing else stands between the state and its dismantlement. Without these three things, Israelis would not live in an entity that has come to be known as the “least safe place for Jews in the world.”

Strip away the spin and the gloss, and you quickly realize that Israel doesn’t even have the basics of a normal state. After 64 years, it doesn’t have borders. After six decades, it has never been more isolated. Over half a century later, and it needs a gargantuan military just to stop Palestinians from walking home.

Israel is a failed experiment. It is on life-support – pull those three plugs and it is a cadaver, living only in the minds of some seriously deluded foreigners who thought they could pull off the heist of the century.

The most important thing we can do as we hover on the horizon of One State is to shed the old language rapidly. None of it was real anyway – it was just the parlance of that particular “game.” Grow a new vocabulary of possibilities – the new state will be the dawn of humanity’s great reconciliation. Muslims, Christians and Jews living together in Palestine as they once did.

Naysayers can take a hike. Our patience is wearing thinner than the walls of the hovels that Palestinian refugees have called “home” for three generations in their purgatory camps.

These universally exploited refugees are entitled to the nice apartments – the ones that have pools downstairs and a grove of palm trees outside the lobby. Because the kind of compensation owed for this failed western experiment will never be enough.

And no, nobody hates Jews. That is the fallback argument screeched in our ears – the one “firewall” remaining to protect this Israeli Frankenstein. I don’t even care enough to insert the caveats that are supposed to prove I don’t hate Jews. It is not a provable point, and frankly, it is a straw man of an argument. If Jews who didn’t live through the Holocaust still feel the pain of it, then take that up with the Germans. Demand a sizeable plot of land in Germany – and good luck to you.

For anti-Semites salivating over an article that slams Israel, ply your trade elsewhere – you are part of the reason this problem exists.

Israelis who don’t want to share Palestine as equal citizens with the indigenous Palestinian population – the ones who don’t want to relinquish that which they demanded Palestinians relinquish 64 years ago - can take their second passports and go back home. Those remaining had better find a positive attitude – Palestinians have shown themselves to be a forgiving lot. The amount of carnage they have experienced at the hands of their oppressors – without proportional response – shows remarkable restraint and faith.

This is less the death of a Jewish state than it is the demise of the last remnants of modern-day colonialism. It is a rite of passage – we will get through it just fine. At this particular precipice in the 21st century, we are all, universally, Palestinian – undoing this wrong is a test of our collective humanity, and nobody has the right to sit this one out.

Israel has no right to exist. Break that mental barrier and just say it: “Israel has no right to exist.” Roll it around your tongue, tweet it, post it as your Facebook status update – do it before you think twice. Delegitimization is here – have no fear. Palestine will be less painful than Israel ever was.

http://english.al-akhbar.com/blogs/sandbox/excuse-me-israel-has-no-right-exist

 

[SaintsInDome2006]

Read this slowly. Really slowly.

It.is.not.any.of.our.concern.not.one.bit

We shouldnt get involved in regional affairs just because our precious gas prices may go up. Christ dude, how many wars/conflicts do we need to get in before you realize it never and I mean never works out in our favor.

Yet it was our, Great Britain's, and the Soviet Union's concern to displace thousands of Muslim tribal families who had occupied what is now the State of Israel for ~20-30+ previous generations...so that the State of Israel could be (re)formed?

I'm all-for supporting the Israelis as our allies. Truth be told, I am part-Jewish myself! But it became our fight the moment we told folks to G.T.F.O. so that we could solve one huge problem and at least partially try to right a horrible wrong that occurred in WWII. But in the process, we created another enormous problem. And committed another horrible wrong (displacing thousands upon thousands of individuals from the only home their families had known for centuries).

Can you imagine if China and Russia announced that they were going to move all the refugees from nations embroiled in civil war and genocide in Africa to Alabama...make that its own country, while telling all those Confederate flag-waving locals to G.T.F.O. of the State that their ancestors had called home since the 18th/19th Century? You don't think that a percentage of them wouldn't be kidnapping and killing folks who took "their" land? Fanning the verbal flames to a white-hot level that would make the Tea Party fringe (loons) look moderate/reasonable by comparison? Yelling "Death to China/Russia" into bullhorns? Firing rockets from directly across the border in MS, TN or GA?

But that's "different," right?! Because Israel is our ally. Just like what our nation did to tribe after tribe across most of our nation is "different" too?!

Sorry I don't think these are good points at all.

Israel has just as much right to exist and has just as much historical legitimacy (or lack thereof) as any of the other nations cobbled together after WW1 - including Iraq, Syria (as formed), Lebanon, Kuwait, Saudi Arabia, UAE.

It's not you of course, total respect, but there are some very ugly people using just this very false argument to promote and propose some very ugly genocidal things. And when they say "Israel", they means "Jews."

I will add that the leaders of some of these other pseudo-nations have far less legitimacy than a democratically elected legislature.

As for the Alabama comparison - that is America. That's what we did. We were refugees who left other nations to create a new home that quite frankly had not been ours. Kudos and cheers for the Israelis who have fought so hard to create a nation, which is frankly the best one in the region.

By the way if you support Pres. Obama he has actively said he would defend Israel if they were attacked by Iran or in a similar situation. If you have a problem with this policy maybe you voted for the wrong guy.

 

[urbanhack]

well,

Israel is the main ally in the region, but if you do not want to go there, Israel is a center for tech innovation and democracy.

In any case, this is not about equal partners, this is about one group wanting to destroy the other and not even willing to recognize Israel's right to exist. When the palestinians murder 3 innocent jews, the muslim world rejoices. When I read that some jews lit a palestinian boy on fire, I was sickened that those that share my religion would do such a thing. Therein lies the problem. I have no doubt that those who are not jews or muslims will prefer to not take a side or worse, consider both to be equal, but the truth is that if everyone in Hamas and Fatah threw their guns into the ocean, there would be peace. If the Israeli's threw their guns into the ocean they would be killed.

http://www.vox.com/2014/7/14/5898581/chart-israel-palestine-conflict-deaths

 

[RCon]

well,

Israel is the main ally in the region, but if you do not want to go there, Israel is a center for tech innovation and democracy.

In any case, this is not about equal partners, this is about one group wanting to destroy the other and not even willing to recognize Israel's right to exist. When the palestinians murder 3 innocent jews, the muslim world rejoices. When I read that some jews lit a palestinian boy on fire, I was sickened that those that share my religion would do such a thing. Therein lies the problem. I have no doubt that those who are not jews or muslims will prefer to not take a side or worse, consider both to be equal, but the truth is that if everyone in Hamas and Fatah threw their guns into the ocean, there would be peace. If the Israeli's threw their guns into the ocean they would be killed.

http://www.vox.com/2014/7/14/5898581/chart-israel-palestine-conflict-deaths

That's not really responsive to the point I bolded above. That disparity (assuming your link is accurate, something I'm not at all sure about) is due to competence, not intent.

 

[timschochet]

So most Palestinians don't recognize Israel's right to exist, So well meaning people like Datonn get their history completely wrong (neither we not the UN imposed Israel upon the Palestinians; the Jews were already there of their own accord; all we did was grant them legal recognition).

While we repeat these age old arguments, Israeli bombs continue to kill Palestinian children. The children are not being targeted of course, but theyre still dying. That's what's happening NOW. This isn't working.

 

[RCon]

So most Palestinians don't recognize Israel's right to exist, So well meaning people like Datonn get their history completely wrong (neither we not the UN imposed Israel upon the Palestinians; the Jews were already there of their own accord; all we did was grant them legal recognition).

While we repeat these age old arguments, Israeli bombs continue to kill Palestinian children. The children are not being targeted of course, but theyre still dying. That's what's happening NOW. This isn't working.

So propose a different, realistic course of action.

You seem to imply that the Palestinian deaths are to be blamed on Israel, which is just wrong. No attacks on Israel = no Palestinian deaths.

 

[timschochet]

So most Palestinians don't recognize Israel's right to exist, So well meaning people like Datonn get their history completely wrong (neither we not the UN imposed Israel upon the Palestinians; the Jews were already there of their own accord; all we did was grant them legal recognition).

While we repeat these age old arguments, Israeli bombs continue to kill Palestinian children. The children are not being targeted of course, but theyre still dying. That's what's happening NOW. This isn't working.

So propose a different, realistic course of action.

You seem to imply that the Palestinian deaths are to be blamed on Israel, which is just wrong. No attacks on Israel = no Palestinian deaths.

Quite the contrary. I am not blaming Israel. But the result is the same, and it's awful. For now the best course of action would be a cease fire.

 

[SaintsInDome2006]

So most Palestinians don't recognize Israel's right to exist, So well meaning people like Datonn get their history completely wrong (neither we not the UN imposed Israel upon the Palestinians; the Jews were already there of their own accord; all we did was grant them legal recognition).

While we repeat these age old arguments, Israeli bombs continue to kill Palestinian children. The children are not being targeted of course, but theyre still dying. That's what's happening NOW. This isn't working.

So propose a different, realistic course of action.

You seem to imply that the Palestinian deaths are to be blamed on Israel, which is just wrong. No attacks on Israel = no Palestinian deaths.

Quite the contrary. I am not blaming Israel. But the result is the same, and it's awful.For now the best course of action would be a cease fire.

Let's see:

• Hamas kidnaps three Israeli boys
• They kill those boys
• Israel demands Hamas investigate and turn over the perpetrators
• Hamas refuses
• Israel says they will take matters into their own hands
• Hamas starts lobbing missiles randomly into cities, towns, populations

Gaza cannot be bigger than probably the parish/county we live in, but it looks as crowded as Bed-Stuy and 100x more poor and dangerous, it's crazy.

What is the cease-fire going to say if it doesn't say Hamas will try to investigate the murders or let Israel do so?

 

[RCon]

So most Palestinians don't recognize Israel's right to exist, So well meaning people like Datonn get their history completely wrong (neither we not the UN imposed Israel upon the Palestinians; the Jews were already there of their own accord; all we did was grant them legal recognition).

While we repeat these age old arguments, Israeli bombs continue to kill Palestinian children. The children are not being targeted of course, but theyre still dying. That's what's happening NOW. This isn't working.

So propose a different, realistic course of action.

You seem to imply that the Palestinian deaths are to be blamed on Israel, which is just wrong. No attacks on Israel = no Palestinian deaths.

Quite the contrary. I am not blaming Israel. But the result is the same, and it's awful.For now the best course of action would be a cease fire.

Cease fire would be great. Let's make it permanent. Now, what should Israel's course of action be the next time Hamas ignores the cease fire?

 

[timschochet]

So most Palestinians don't recognize Israel's right to exist, So well meaning people like Datonn get their history completely wrong (neither we not the UN imposed Israel upon the Palestinians; the Jews were already there of their own accord; all we did was grant them legal recognition).

While we repeat these age old arguments, Israeli bombs continue to kill Palestinian children. The children are not being targeted of course, but theyre still dying. That's what's happening NOW. This isn't working.

So propose a different, realistic course of action.

You seem to imply that the Palestinian deaths are to be blamed on Israel, which is just wrong. No attacks on Israel = no Palestinian deaths.

Quite the contrary. I am not blaming Israel. But the result is the same, and it's awful.For now the best course of action would be a cease fire.

Let's see:

• Hamas kidnaps three Israeli boys
• They kill those boys
• Israel demands Hamas investigate and turn over the perpetrators
• Hamas refuses
• Israel says they will take matters into their own hands
• Hamas starts lobbing missiles randomly into cities, towns, populations

Gaza cannot be bigger than probably the parish/county we live in, but it looks as crowded as Bed-Stuy and 100x more poor and dangerous, it's crazy.What is the cease-fire going to say if it doesn't say Hamas will try to investigate the murders or let Israel do so?

Who cares what it says?

 

[SaintsInDome2006]

Nigerian President Goodluck Jonathan has revealed that Israelis have joined an international team, that includes American, British and French personnel, in the mission to rescue the 220 girls abducted by Islamist terror group Boko Haram, last April.

Jonathan made the comments during a meeting with Pakistani rights campaigner Malala Yousafzai in Abuja on Monday.

...

http://www.ibtimes.co.uk/boko-haram-mass-abduction-israel-joins-hunt-girls-reveals-nigerias-goodluck-jonathan-1456661

Any Arabs helping with this?

 

[SaintsInDome2006]

So most Palestinians don't recognize Israel's right to exist, So well meaning people like Datonn get their history completely wrong (neither we not the UN imposed Israel upon the Palestinians; the Jews were already there of their own accord; all we did was grant them legal recognition).

While we repeat these age old arguments, Israeli bombs continue to kill Palestinian children. The children are not being targeted of course, but theyre still dying. That's what's happening NOW. This isn't working.

So propose a different, realistic course of action.

You seem to imply that the Palestinian deaths are to be blamed on Israel, which is just wrong. No attacks on Israel = no Palestinian deaths.

Quite the contrary. I am not blaming Israel. But the result is the same, and it's awful.For now the best course of action would be a cease fire.

Let's see:

• Hamas kidnaps three Israeli boys
• They kill those boys
• Israel demands Hamas investigate and turn over the perpetrators
• Hamas refuses
• Israel says they will take matters into their own hands
• Hamas starts lobbing missiles randomly into cities, towns, populations

Gaza cannot be bigger than probably the parish/county we live in, but it looks as crowded as Bed-Stuy and 100x more poor and dangerous, it's crazy.What is the cease-fire going to say if it doesn't say Hamas will try to investigate the murders or let Israel do so?

Who cares what it says?

Probably Israelis who would like to know if Hamas considers it open hunting season on their youth.

 

[timschochet]

So most Palestinians don't recognize Israel's right to exist, So well meaning people like Datonn get their history completely wrong (neither we not the UN imposed Israel upon the Palestinians; the Jews were already there of their own accord; all we did was grant them legal recognition).

While we repeat these age old arguments, Israeli bombs continue to kill Palestinian children. The children are not being targeted of course, but theyre still dying. That's what's happening NOW. This isn't working.

So propose a different, realistic course of action.

You seem to imply that the Palestinian deaths are to be blamed on Israel, which is just wrong. No attacks on Israel = no Palestinian deaths.

Quite the contrary. I am not blaming Israel. But the result is the same, and it's awful.For now the best course of action would be a cease fire.

Cease fire would be great. Let's make it permanent. Now, what should Israel's course of action be the next time Hamas ignores the cease fire?

Before that happens, Israel needs to withdraw completely from Gaza and the West Bank. Not just part of it; completely. That means removing all settlements established after 1967.

 

[RCon]

Cease fire would be great. Let's make it permanent. Now, what should Israel's course of action be the next time Hamas ignores the cease fire?

Before that happens, Israel needs to withdraw completely from Gaza and the West Bank. Not just part of it; completely. That means removing all settlements established after 1967.

Why? To make it easier for Hamas to launch rockets? To make it more likely that the rockets will kill innocent Israelis?

 

[SaintsInDome2006]

So most Palestinians don't recognize Israel's right to exist, So well meaning people like Datonn get their history completely wrong (neither we not the UN imposed Israel upon the Palestinians; the Jews were already there of their own accord; all we did was grant them legal recognition).

While we repeat these age old arguments, Israeli bombs continue to kill Palestinian children. The children are not being targeted of course, but theyre still dying. That's what's happening NOW. This isn't working.

So propose a different, realistic course of action.

You seem to imply that the Palestinian deaths are to be blamed on Israel, which is just wrong. No attacks on Israel = no Palestinian deaths.

Quite the contrary. I am not blaming Israel. But the result is the same, and it's awful.For now the best course of action would be a cease fire.

Cease fire would be great. Let's make it permanent. Now, what should Israel's course of action be the next time Hamas ignores the cease fire?

Before that happens, Israel needs to withdraw completely from Gaza and the West Bank. Not just part of it; completely. That means removing all settlements established after 1967.

So if it was you and your nation had been attacked at least 6-7 times - not mention the scores of rocket attacks and incursions like this one - from Egypt, from Syria, from Lebanon, you would recommend just withdrawing troops and surrendering buffers on both sides in addition to the high ground of the Golan Heights without any guarantee of recognition and a promise to end all future hostilities.

If you were Israeli PM, that would be your call?

 

[timschochet]

So most Palestinians don't recognize Israel's right to exist, So well meaning people like Datonn get their history completely wrong (neither we not the UN imposed Israel upon the Palestinians; the Jews were already there of their own accord; all we did was grant them legal recognition).

While we repeat these age old arguments, Israeli bombs continue to kill Palestinian children. The children are not being targeted of course, but theyre still dying. That's what's happening NOW. This isn't working.

So propose a different, realistic course of action.

You seem to imply that the Palestinian deaths are to be blamed on Israel, which is just wrong. No attacks on Israel = no Palestinian deaths.

Quite the contrary. I am not blaming Israel. But the result is the same, and it's awful.For now the best course of action would be a cease fire.

Cease fire would be great. Let's make it permanent. Now, what should Israel's course of action be the next time Hamas ignores the cease fire?

Before that happens, Israel needs to withdraw completely from Gaza and the West Bank. Not just part of it; completely. That means removing all settlements established after 1967.

So if it was you and your nation had been attacked at least 6-7 times - not mention the scores of rocket attacks and incursions like this one - from Egypt, from Syria, from Lebanon, you would recommend just withdrawing troops and surrendering buffers on both sides in addition to the high ground of the Golan Heights without any guarantee of recognition and a promise to end all future hostilities.

If you were Israeli PM, that would be your call?

I didn't mention the Golan Heights deliberately. I would not give that up. As to Gaza and the West Bank- yes. These guarantees and promises are meaningless anyhow. Israel would be more secure without these settlements.