What's new
Fantasy Football - Footballguys Forums

This is a sample guest message. Register a free account today to become a member! Once signed in, you'll be able to participate on this site by adding your own topics and posts, as well as connect with other members through your own private inbox!

The Wheel of Time on Amazon (1 Viewer)

Ok start so far.  Some necessary changes, some not.  It's a little above average so far.  However some things give me pause that it could go down legend of the seeker path.  Trying to progress quickly yet skipping vital things (like Min in Baerlon and her viewings) give me pause.  Elayne is not even in this season when Caemlyn is pretty important in the 1st book is hard to understand as well.  Guess we'll see.   

Also the Dragon being a man or woman narrative is completely stupid an unnecessary IMO though I get why it's done


I also get why they are keeping the mystery of the Dragon but find it unnecessary as well. It doesn't "bother" me, just didn't think it was needed (we'll see where/if it goes anywhere - and I do know it is causing non-book readers some issues figuring out who the dragon is, intentionally).

I am sad they haven't picked up Min yet, but I think they are trying to limit and space out character introductions (plus it allows them to eliminate an actor and location for season 1 which apparently they've needed to do for budget reasons, sadly).

While I would have liked them to visit Caemlyn as that's one of my favorite parts in book 1, I also don't think it's necessary to tell the story. It basically introduces a couple of characters that won't be important for a while, they did a few other parts of that story in Tar Valon.

As for ep.5, I thought they spent a bit too much time on the funerals and emotional impacts and not enough on moving Matt/Rand's portion forward, personally. But they seem to be setting up ep.6 to have some pretty epic moments if my guess is correct where it's going from here.

I do kinda like that, even as an avid book reader, I'm not 100% sure what's going to happen next.

 
Ya, ep. 5 is a huge miss for me.  Wasted a lot of time that could of been better used on the things they skipped over that actually center around the core characters instead.  Absolutely no reason to get into any tower stuff at all yet and Tar Valon (city holding the White Tower) is somewhere in the range of 800-1200 miles away from Caemlyn.  

Just ugh.   

 
Sinn Fein said:
Speaking of which, I am trying to keep up with the series, and the first book - but, man, do the characters in the book love talking to everyone, and anyone, about everything.

They live in a world, where they know nobody outside their village, they know they are in some serious ####, and can't trust anyone - yet, every time I turn around, they are telling their story to the first stranger they meet.

Do they ever get to the point where they think - maybe I should be wary of strangers?

(I am just now at the point when Perrin and Egwene are called out for lying to the wolf-talker.  SO, I suppose they at least tried ...)


Ya trust starts becoming an issue with a few of them as the books progress.  Honestly I never thought about how much they blab in the first book, probably because its a common/easy way to mash characters together early on in series. 

 
Ya, ep. 5 is a huge miss for me.  Wasted a lot of time that could of been better used on the things they skipped over that actually center around the core characters instead.  Absolutely no reason to get into any tower stuff at all yet and Tar Valon (city holding the


White


Tower) is somewhere in the range of 800-1200 miles away from Caemlyn.  

Just ugh.   
Interestingly, non-book readers seem to be giving ep. 5 high marks. So I wonder if this is a case of missed expectations over the episode itself. I haven't watched it a 2nd time yet (I've been watching twice, first one for initial reaction, book comparisons, etc.) and second I just try to shake all that off and just enjoy the episode for itself (and try to find all the little easter eggs they've been putting in, like Fain being seen twice in ep 5 and his creepy whistling at least one other time.

 
Not a book reader. Not sure if it’s the series or just where I’m at attention-wise right now in life in general, but my attention has been wandering all over the place while watching to the point I realize I missed a bunch of stuff. Probably won’t continue watching.

 
Is Perrin a wolfman and he doesn't know?

Someone please get rid of the red girl.

This show is losing me.

 
Not a book reader. Not sure if it’s the series or just where I’m at attention-wise right now in life in general, but my attention has been wandering all over the place while watching to the point I realize I missed a bunch of stuff. Probably won’t continue watching.
I am with you but I feel like I am paying attention. It just doesn't make any sense. I suspect it may come together in the future but I don't really care enough about the characters to continue. There was no real background to the relationship of the girl who died and the guy who killed himself. He tells a nice story about how she hired him but it was not enough to kill yourself over. Maybe I would have cared more if I actually saw them meet and all what happened to cause such emotion. 

I will say I liked the dude screaming over his friends dead body. That is something I can support.

I am probably out but if I have nothing else to watch I may put it on.

 
Figured I would give my thoughts on Loial, I think he looks pretty bad.  I do understand there are limits on budget, etc. but they should have at least thrown in the ears.  Though believe the actor did a good job getting his voice and mannerism.  Guess it is a mixed bag on him so far as he is not at all how I thought he should look but think it isn't a total misfire mostly because of the actor.

Also, I personally don't care about not going to Caemlyn as seems like they are covering those parts elsewhere.

 
Wait, what?


When Fain is first introduced in episode 1, he is whistling (or it is heard at least) and it's been heard a few other times now, sometimes when Fain isn't on screen. It's heavily implied he was the cause of the shadow (from someone disappearing around a corner) that Matt followed to find the dagger, and whistling was heard then as well. Some of the whistling is pretty subtle and others have seen it due to close captions.

 
The actor nailed Loial even if he looked too cartoonish. I guess they went with goofy hair over expressive eyebrows and emotional, tufted ears. Whatever, I guess I'll get over the look. The actor is one of the cast who has been reading the books the most, and I think he must be listening on Audible to Michael Kramer because it just felt like Loial if I closed my eyes.

The biggest waste of time for the whole series thus far was Steppin. Seems like non-book readers didn't even like it. Just about everyone knows we need more time spent with the main cast rather than some side track with a despondent warder. The Frodo ring quest was way too obvious. I knew Lan was going to have an emotional scene, but I thought it would be because of someone dying in the Borderlands, at least.

BTW, I don't think we will see Camelyn next season either. I haven't seen anyone cast who I would think is Morgase, for example. Elayne has been cast, and I think the Peaky Blinders actress will be Elaida, although I get why people think she might be one of those feared, cut/combined characters now as well.

I assume we'll meet Min in the next episode.

They aren't following the books, but I now think they're mostly getting the Perrin storyline right. Amon Valda and the Whitecloaks are one of the better parts of the show right now too.

Padan Fain was in the episode twice, and 3 times if you count the whistling. Once when the boys entered the city (standing in the shadows behind a vendor in a red dress), whistling as the boys entered the inn, and most obviously shown when the boys were watching the procession from the balcony.

I'm super annoyed with them going to Tar Valon, and Nynaeve being in the White Tower after displaying so much power is the worst mistake. She should be in novice white already, preparing for the accepted test, and there's no way she would be allowed to leave any time soon.

 
Last edited by a moderator:
I also get why they are keeping the mystery of the Dragon but find it unnecessary as well. It doesn't "bother" me, just didn't think it was needed (we'll see where/if it goes anywhere - and I do know it is causing non-book readers some issues figuring out who the dragon is, intentionally).

I am sad they haven't picked up Min yet, but I think they are trying to limit and space out character introductions (plus it allows them to eliminate an actor and location for season 1 which apparently they've needed to do for budget reasons, sadly).

While I would have liked them to visit Caemlyn as that's one of my favorite parts in book 1, I also don't think it's necessary to tell the story. It basically introduces a couple of characters that won't be important for a while, they did a few other parts of that story in Tar Valon.

As for ep.5, I thought they spent a bit too much time on the funerals and emotional impacts and not enough on moving Matt/Rand's portion forward, personally. But they seem to be setting up ep.6 to have some pretty epic moments if my guess is correct where it's going from here.

I do kinda like that, even as an avid book reader, I'm not 100% sure what's going to happen next.
I would link Min is a definite. I don't think we see Elyias. 

 
2 questions for non-book readers:

Do you think Perrin is/was a blacksmith or was he just married to one?

Do you know who the Dragon Reborn is?

Yes/no is fine and probably better than going into detail on the last one.

 
2 questions for non-book readers:

Do you think Perrin is/was a blacksmith or was he just married to one?

Do you know who the Dragon Reborn is?

Yes/no is fine and probably better than going into detail on the last one.
Married to one.

Do to random shots of the characters and the brooding bad attitude my guess is Rand is the reluctant hero.

 
Last edited by a moderator:
2 questions for non-book readers:

Do you think Perrin is/was a blacksmith or was he just married to one?

Do you know who the Dragon Reborn is?

Yes/no is fine and probably better than going into detail on the last one.
maybe?

no

 
Ignoratio Elenchi said:
I would've guessed he was.  I assume from your question he's not?  Guess I wasn't paying very close attention to that first episode. 

No.  (Could make a guess but I wouldn't bet a lot of money on it.)
Being a blacksmith a pretty large part of his character in the books. It shouldn't be a spoiler, but I just wondered how close it is to one.

 
jplvr said:
2 questions for non-book readers:

Do you think Perrin is/was a blacksmith or was he just married to one?

Do you know who the Dragon Reborn is?

Yes/no is fine and probably better than going into detail on the last one.
1) Yah, I assumed he was, but if you told me he was just married to one, I'd just be like "oh". 

2) I have a pretty strong guess as to who it is.  Of the 4 that left, it seems Rand is the only who who seems to fit.  Perrin is a wolf guy.  Do werewolves exist in this universe, or is just able to talk/speak/summon the wolves?  I guess he's bonded to them some how.  Egwene is going to be an Aes Sedai.  And Mat is dealing with that cursed dagger he grabbed (I assume it's cursed from the ominous music played and his clearly degrading state).  (Also did he kill that family or was it the night creature thing? It was kind of implied that it might have been Mat, too).  So it seems like he's being set up to turn at some point.  So yah, I feel like it's going to be Rand.  

 
The Gator said:
Not at all, they overthought being sneaky and trying to hide it. Just make it easy to find. 
Tried Apple TV last night. No videos available through X-Ray.

Tried the Roku in the bedroom. No dice.

I guess Amazon was having a general issue this morning, but I finally got to them to start Episode 1 after 3 hours of trying on my desktop.

 
2) I have a pretty strong guess as to who it is.  Of the 4 that left, it seems Rand is the only who who seems to fit.  Perrin is a wolf guy.  Do werewolves exist in this universe, or is just able to talk/speak/summon the wolves?  I guess he's bonded to them some how.  Egwene is going to be an Aes Sedai.  And Mat is dealing with that cursed dagger he grabbed (I assume it's cursed from the ominous music played and his clearly degrading state).  (Also did he kill that family or was it the night creature thing? It was kind of implied that it might have been Mat, too).  So it seems like he's being set up to turn at some point.  So yah, I feel like it's going to be Rand.  
Is there a book thread similar to GOT?

 
Is there a book thread similar to GOT?
No clue, I've never read the books at all, strictly from what I've seen on the show, and I avoid spoilers as best I possibly can (don't read recaps or watch trailers, as I've enjoyed watching the show unfold).  If I've accidentally spoiled something it's just a guess based on what I've seen and picked up on and the story that has unfolded so far.

For example, I have no idea who this Fain character is that keeps being referenced and mentioned as hiding in the background.  I'm guessing a character who was introduced but I've then forgotten as he's not playing a large role yet.  But I'm not going to look him up, because trying to figure out wtf is going on has been kind of fun so far.

 
No clue, I've never read the books at all, strictly from what I've seen on the show, and I avoid spoilers as best I possibly can (don't read recaps or watch trailers, as I've enjoyed watching the show unfold).  If I've accidentally spoiled something it's just a guess based on what I've seen and picked up on and the story that has unfolded so far.

For example, I have no idea who this Fain character is that keeps being referenced and mentioned as hiding in the background.  I'm guessing a character who was introduced but I've then forgotten as he's not playing a large role yet.  But I'm not going to look him up, because trying to figure out wtf is going on has been kind of fun so far.
No worries man, I was asking more in general than directly at you. I'm just about done with book 1 and had some thoughts on your point but it would maybe kind of spoil it so don't want to discuss in this thread.

Glad you're enjoying it  :thumbup:  I said I was going to tap out when I started reading the books but I've watched the episodes. They have had to combine so much for the sake of time and changed storylines enough that reading the books and watching the show hasn't really been as difficult as I thought it would be. Also helps to be able to pronounce some of the cities and characters. I was kinda scared about starting the series given how large it is but I've enjoyed it so far. Book 2 starting this week.

 
No worries man, I was asking more in general than directly at you. I'm just about done with book 1 and had some thoughts on your point but it would maybe kind of spoil it so don't want to discuss in this thread.

Glad you're enjoying it  :thumbup:  I said I was going to tap out when I started reading the books but I've watched the episodes. They have had to combine so much for the sake of time and changed storylines enough that reading the books and watching the show hasn't really been as difficult as I thought it would be. Also helps to be able to pronounce some of the cities and characters. I was kinda scared about starting the series given how large it is but I've enjoyed it so far. Book 2 starting this week.


I wish they had fixed the spoiler tags, but as a show only fan, it really doesn't bother me if you guys wanna discuss book stuff in this thread, too.  Maybe if everyone wants to add a ***BOOK STUFF*** type flag that makes it easier to skip, it might be the best of both worlds, but that's just my opinion. 

It can certainly be helpful to have people that are really familiar with the story to answer questions about stuff I may have missed when watching.  Book readers just have a much better attention to detail during a lot of these scenes as they're already familiar with what is going to happen, and can instead focus on the details of how the show displays it, and pick up on more subtle details.  I can always just skip posts that seem to head in spoilery direction. 

 
Last edited by a moderator:
I wish they had fixed the spoiler tags, but as a show only fan, it really doesn't both me if you guys wanna discuss book stuff in this thread, too.  Maybe if everyone wants to add a ***BOOK STUFF*** type flag that makes it easier to skip, it might be the best of both worlds, but that's just my opinion. 

It can certainly be helpful to have people that are really familiar with the story to answer questions about stuff I may have missed when watching.  Book readers just have a much better attention to detail during a lot of these scenes as they're already familiar with what is going to happen, and can instead focus on the details of how the show displays it, and pick up on more subtle details.  I can always just skip posts that seem to head in that direction. 
Yea that's why I asked, no need to muck this thread up. That was the problem we started having with the GOT threads. Separating the two (TV v Books) seemed to make it work. I'll start one if there isn't already one out there.

 
Last edited by a moderator:
For example, I have no idea who this Fain character is that keeps being referenced and mentioned as hiding in the background.  I'm guessing a character who was introduced but I've then forgotten as he's not playing a large role yet.  But I'm not going to look him up, because trying to figure out wtf is going on has been kind of fun so far.


Tall skinny black merchant with the trinket cart that bought the stolen bracelet from Mat ( He's the long haired hippie looking stoner guy with the two twin sisters and the messed up parents)

Right during the attack the first episode, the merchant is seen smiling and then disappears around the corner. Obviously he had no fear for his own safety and knew the attack was coming and might have been the advanced scout to signal the attack.

This show desperately needs a voice over narrator. The tell for that is Rosamund Pike is doing three things right now. She's using all kinds of magic as kind of an escape hatch for everyone. Then she's unloading backstory exposition in large dumps while on horseback. Finally she keeps pushing the group to move and says Trust Me and refuses to explain anything. The show could eliminate the problem of the last two and fill in all kinds of backstory with a true full time narrator.

I suspect show runner hesitate with this because the rule is always show and not tell. But if the main character is reduced to exposition dumps anyway, you might as well make it functional.

Adhering to canon is really limiting most of the time for storytelling. A more compact way to tell this beginning section would be for the entire countryside to know 4-5 people are going to be picked for some prophecy and then have mid level cameo actors with slight brand names play the ones thought to be the chosen ones, then have them killed. Have five unknowns then emerge.  That's a bit of The Last Kingdom and Desperate Housewives in form, but efficient storytelling is efficient storytelling.

The opening teaser after the pilot should give a 10 minute primer scene for the next 5 episodes on each main "candidate" character.

I recognize the show and the network wanted a splash scene in the pilot to draw in the audience and get the story moving at a faster pace, but I question if the way it was done was going to help the general audience understand any of the major characters.

Generally you have a problem when the narrative is controlled by people who might know the story too well. They take for granted that a brand new audience needs to be guided in a little better.

 
Tall skinny black merchant with the trinket cart that bought the stolen bracelet from Mat ( He's the long haired hippie looking stoner guy with the two twin sisters and the messed up parents)

Right during the attack the first episode, the merchant is seen smiling and then disappears around the corner. Obviously he had no fear for his own safety and knew the attack was coming and might have been the advanced scout to signal the attack.

This show desperately needs a voice over narrator. The tell for that is Rosamund Pike is doing three things right now. She's using all kinds of magic as kind of an escape hatch for everyone. Then she's unloading backstory exposition in large dumps while on horseback. Finally she keeps pushing the group to move and says Trust Me and refuses to explain anything. The show could eliminate the problem of the last two and fill in all kinds of backstory with a true full time narrator.

I suspect show runner hesitate with this because the rule is always show and not tell. But if the main character is reduced to exposition dumps anyway, you might as well make it functional.

Adhering to canon is really limiting most of the time for storytelling. A more compact way to tell this beginning section would be for the entire countryside to know 4-5 people are going to be picked for some prophecy and then have mid level cameo actors with slight brand names play the ones thought to be the chosen ones, then have them killed. Have five unknowns then emerge.  That's a bit of The Last Kingdom and Desperate Housewives in form, but efficient storytelling is efficient storytelling.

The opening teaser after the pilot should give a 10 minute primer scene for the next 5 episodes on each main "candidate" character.

I recognize the show and the network wanted a splash scene in the pilot to draw in the audience and get the story moving at a faster pace, but I question if the way it was done was going to help the general audience understand any of the major characters.

Generally you have a problem when the narrative is controlled by people who might know the story too well. They take for granted that a brand new audience needs to be guided in a little better.


That is a very interesting idea. I mean, they've established that multiple Aes Sedai were looking for the Dragon Reborn. Would it have made sense to open with that Aes Sedai that ended up being burnt alive, talking to those 5 random nobodies, and explaining a bit to them about the prophecy, only to have their camp ambushed by those white cloak guys killing them all and then further expand on the prophecy during the scene before he lights her on fire. Or would that have been totally out of character for the White Cloaks? They clearly have no qualms killing or torturing if they think Magic is involved. 

Overall though, I havnt really minded the pacing, I felt like episode 5 was the slowest with the funeral and warder suicide stuff, but I just shrugged it off as them wanting to clearly drive home the bond between warder and Aes Sedai. 

 
That is a very interesting idea. I mean, they've established that multiple Aes Sedai were looking for the Dragon Reborn. Would it have made sense to open with that Aes Sedai that ended up being burnt alive, talking to those 5 random nobodies, and explaining a bit to them about the prophecy, only to have their camp ambushed by those white cloak guys killing them all and then further expand on the prophecy during the scene before he lights her on fire. Or would that have been totally out of character for the White Cloaks? They clearly have no qualms killing or torturing if they think Magic is involved.


The way I would have set up the "hook" would be to have the village know that some will be chosen out of many ( I recognize this starts to shift from canon, but there are some things you need to do for TV) so the characters know and some are preparing for a higher station in their world. Have five cameo actors who are somewhat names. Like a Kal Penn or a Thora Birch type. Just enough of name where you think they will be a cast regular.

Have the bodyguard character, Lan Mandragon ( Daniel Henney as the quasi samurai) do something to trigger a repair mission far from town. And then the town's leader could send Perrin ( blacksmith), Rand, Mat and the two quasi young witches as they are the most expendable and least likely to be chosen. Just make them mediocre and losers and not focus on them too much. Make it a point that in the town's hierarchy, that they are losers.

Have Rosamund Pikes character show up as if she's going to take careful scrutiny to pick out the candidates and spend some times with the cameo characters. Have her play it up to the merchant, Fain, that she sees great potential in the Five most considerd by the village itself to be their best and brightest.

Once the attack is triggered, show all five of the cameo characters die and Pike and Mandragon fighting as shown to try to save them. Have them flee. Have the five outcasts watch from a mountaintop or some distance reach that their entire village was slaughtered. Then have Pike reveal that they are the real candidates and their village was sacrificed to make all their enemies believe that they had succeeded in killing the potentials. And now they have to run before it's all figured out.

To me, that's a much more condensed pilot. There's some slight misdirection, but you are attuned immediately that Pike's character will sacrifice anyone, she's a zealot. And now you have natural conflict as the surviving candidates know she used their families and loved ones as bait and set them up to die. But since they are being hunted, they don't have a choice but to keep following her. You want a relationship where the candidates are clear that Pike is on their side and not on their side at the same time.

It's nonsensical to have people on the run because a wave of enemies will attack and kill everyone in their village because that's already happened. That's what the show right now is trying to sell. You can't sell a threat that's been fulfilled.

The next five episodes could operate with the intro teaser scene to cover a candidate's backstory in the village and their individual conflicts, one character per episode. The audience knows their families are dead so that heightens the tension in what the survivors cannot say nor do for their families to save them. Their families died because they might have a gift, but only one of them has that gift. So each wonders if all their friends suffered because of them.

It's just more compact and it keeps the major battle scene.

Adding in the witches too soon in the pilot is just too much narrative all at once. So you don't know enough about each candidate to truly feel their loss, but you can tie the audience into their confused guilt. The candidates only know they are the reason their families are all dead. And now they blame Pike but need Pike and thus you have the kind of conflict that you can write around.

My take on it.

 
Being a blacksmith a pretty large part of his character in the books. It shouldn't be a spoiler, but I just wondered how close it is to one.


This part of the pilot was just bad storytelling structure.

A major character feels a loss that he inflicted but not by real malice nor real intent towards any kind of malice. But the audience knows nothing about their relationship. It's fine if the showrunners want to eliminate a minor character early, but you have to establish the loss to protect the main character in question thus you can only give a backstory in a flashback format.

Good storytelling needs good structure. Once you choose certain paths, like the all out attack in the 2nd half of the pilot, it literally forces you in a specific direction if you want to hold onto any kind of narrative structure. In this case, it looks like the show runners just plain failed at it.

The best actor on the show is Rosamund Pike by a long shot. Maria Doyle Kennedy ( the leader of the traveling gypsies) is competent. Peter Franzen (the bodyguard with the two axes) is from Vikings and he's a more than passable actor. But the "potentials" are all pretty raw. Which is fine since you want unknowns and you want budgetary control, but if you get weak actors, you need to keep driving the pace. I'm not such a huge fan of Netflix's Lost In Space, but one thing they did right was they forced the children in high paced sequences. None of the kids were good actors, so the show runners didn't try to sell the audience on scenes that wouldn't work. LIS is an example of relatively good structure but poor understanding of "tone" in the storytelling. The showrunners there had some kind of giant hard on to try to forcefeed some kind of pro- polyamory type narrative. There was just something outright creepy about the way Taylor Russell aka Judy Robinson, who looks all of 14 years old, is framed and leered at by everyone else in the adult cast.

Thematically, WOT doesn't handle the push/pull of light and dark very well. Lighting plays a huge role in setting the tone and enforcing a limited budget in grand scope kind of story like this.

In terms of world building, you just have to trim down not just the temptation to bomb the audience with exposition, but any elements that operate almost exactly like overkill in exposition without actual dialogue.

The GOT pilot was extremely compact. But part of that was GRRM made it compact naturally. The heart and soul of WOT needs to be these potential candidates. You can anchor a no name cast with a brand name actor as the main villain. The show shouldn't have danced around the mystery of "The Big Bad"  Basic Joss Whedon showed why it's always a good idea to put your evil upfront to your audience.

All the ingredients are here on the table, but it's not a whole cake. I kind of feel for WOT fans, they wait a long time and this situation is shaky at best for real longevity for the series.

 
Not a book reader. Not sure if it’s the series or just where I’m at attention-wise right now in life in general, but my attention has been wandering all over the place while watching to the point I realize I missed a bunch of stuff. Probably won’t continue watching.
I’m mildly intrigued so far, enough to keep watching. But it has been a slow burn and I usually am on my phone for at least part of each episode. 

 
An introduction to pillow friends: fine, whatever.

The scene with Moiraine and Mat: thumbs up.

Everything else: two thumbs down with fart noises.

 
question about previous episode, where they're all circling or in the city with the White Tower.

the white coat anti-magic "the light" sadists who btk the magic capable people... I assume the white tower city and people aren't fans? if so- how is there a giant band of them running around within eyeshot of the city, just throat punching hippies and torturing wizards in elaborate tents? 

 
and it's going to take me LONG time to learn the names in this thing. I think I've got Matt down. the rest... all kind of sound the same- and when you guys write them out in here, look and sound even less familiar.

 

Users who are viewing this thread

Back
Top