timschochet's thread- Mods, please move this thread to the Politics Subforum, thank you (2 Viewers)

[General Malaise]

OK guys. I have decided, at least for the time being, to try out General Malaise's advice. I will change the title of this thread, and this will be the only thread I will post in. I will post on all sorts of topics that interest me, many of them serious though not all. I am hoping to get a lot of response and good discussion and debate. We'll see how it goes.

I won't promise this will be forever. A lot depends on whether on not something like this works and I honestly have no idea if it will. But we'll try it out for now.

Big mistake Tim and you will regret it. People who use a continual thread as a personal soapbox to discuss what specifically interests them is fine, but only draws people who want to take the time to go into the thread each day and see what is going on. The problem is that those type of threads are like walking into a middle of a conversation and then finding out the subject is something that is of no interest to you. I find it is not worth the effort to review two pages of a discussion that I wouldn't have clicked on in the first place if I had known the subject matter.

And you won't be happy seeing topics you want to discuss being vigorously debated elsewhere without you being a part of it (unless you assume the same people will duplicate their efforts and talk about those things here). Good luck, but I doubt this will work out for you.

Let's see how this goes before calling it a failure. At the very least, I think it will absolutely drive traffic. Hell, it's 8 pages already! Tim is a rock star!

 

[fantasycurse42]

OK guys. I have decided, at least for the time being, to try out General Malaise's advice. I will change the title of this thread, and this will be the only thread I will post in. I will post on all sorts of topics that interest me, many of them serious though not all. I am hoping to get a lot of response and good discussion and debate. We'll see how it goes.

I won't promise this will be forever. A lot depends on whether on not something like this works and I honestly have no idea if it will. But we'll try it out for now.

Big mistake Tim and you will regret it. People who use a continual thread as a personal soapbox to discuss what specifically interests them is fine, but only draws people who want to take the time to go into the thread each day and see what is going on. The problem is that those type of threads are like walking into a middle of a conversation and then finding out the subject is something that is of no interest to you. I find it is not worth the effort to review two pages of a discussion that I wouldn't have clicked on in the first place if I had known the subject matter.

And you won't be happy seeing topics you want to discuss being vigorously debated elsewhere without you being a part of it (unless you assume the same people will duplicate their efforts and talk about those things here). Good luck, but I doubt this will work out for you.

Let's see how this goes before calling it a failure. At the very least, I think it will absolutely drive traffic. Hell, it's 8 pages already! Tim is a rock star!

You just want it to be big bc it was your idea.

 

[Aaron Rudnicki]

How does one unstar a thread

delete all your posts in it

 

[Da Guru]

GMs thread about nothing, Tim's Thread about himself, what happened to MOPs thread?

 

[George Jefferson Airplane]

GMs thread about nothing, Tim's Thread about himself, what happened to MOPs thread?

Whatever happened to MOP? He get kicked out too?

 

[jon_mx]

GMs thread about nothing, Tim's Thread about himself, what happened to MOPs thread?

Whatever happened to MOP? He get kicked out too?

He just quit. I think he came back briefly, but not for long.

 

[fantasycurse42]

GMs thread about nothing, Tim's Thread about himself, what happened to MOPs thread?

Whatever happened to MOP? He get kicked out too?

He just quit. I think he came back briefly, but not for long.

He has been posting in the shark pool

 

[HellToupee]

GMs thread about nothing, Tim's Thread about himself, what happened to MOPs thread?

Whatever happened to MOP? He get kicked out too?

He just quit. I think he came back briefly, but not for long.

Good guy , hope he eventually comes back

 

[General Malaise]

OK guys. I have decided, at least for the time being, to try out General Malaise's advice. I will change the title of this thread, and this will be the only thread I will post in. I will post on all sorts of topics that interest me, many of them serious though not all. I am hoping to get a lot of response and good discussion and debate. We'll see how it goes.

I won't promise this will be forever. A lot depends on whether on not something like this works and I honestly have no idea if it will. But we'll try it out for now.

Big mistake Tim and you will regret it. People who use a continual thread as a personal soapbox to discuss what specifically interests them is fine, but only draws people who want to take the time to go into the thread each day and see what is going on. The problem is that those type of threads are like walking into a middle of a conversation and then finding out the subject is something that is of no interest to you. I find it is not worth the effort to review two pages of a discussion that I wouldn't have clicked on in the first place if I had known the subject matter.

And you won't be happy seeing topics you want to discuss being vigorously debated elsewhere without you being a part of it (unless you assume the same people will duplicate their efforts and talk about those things here). Good luck, but I doubt this will work out for you.

Let's see how this goes before calling it a failure. At the very least, I think it will absolutely drive traffic. Hell, it's 8 pages already! Tim is a rock star!

You just want it to be big bc it was your idea.

Damn right. And I plan on doing my damnedest to see it succeed.

 

[Ditkaless Wonders]

Any list of greatest Christmas movies that doesn't have Emmet Otter's Jug Band Christmas on it is not a complete list and worthy of scorn and derision.

Emmet Otter's Jug Band Christmas is 48 minutes long. Doesn't qualify as a movie IMO. TV Special.

I am aware, in the arena of movie entertainment, of a certain thematic grouping of movies, always geared towards adult gentlemen 18-still breathing that have average run times of 18-50 minutes, complete with "story", "soundtrack", "drama", "humor", sociopolitical themes and climactic conclusions. If they are movies, sir, then so is Emmet's gift to us this Christmas season.

Wait, if those are movies I need to change my favorite Christmas movies.

The traditional holiday themes of Miracle on 69th Street were compelling. The writers wanted to show us a world where magic could still happen even to adults during the holiday times, with the undercurrent of poverty and hopelessness running through to remind you that miracles are what you make of them. But then you have to measure your experience with your experience there against the similar themes of Santa Comes Twice from the 80's where the director let us get into the head of Santa himself and his experiences not unlike watching Empire Strikes Back from the point of view of Vader.

If you're not including Frosty the Snow Ho, I don't know if I can take your list seriously.

Certainly not. Parody has it's own place, but not in the list we are discussing.

I favor the Divynals Christmas Movie "I Touch My Elf".

 

[timschochet]

Some thoughts on Cuba:

The main complaint, mostly made by Cuban-American politicians and a few hard line conservatives like Sean Hannity, seems to be that we are doing nothing to address the human rights violations that the Cuban government has committed, and we are in effect rewarding the dictatorship and we will help make them rich as they control virtually all of Cuba's land and industry. Both statements are largely true. But I think they are short sided.

The first thing that people have to realize (and sadly they never do) is that it is impossible to do justice to past crimes. We cannot give blacks back the time their ancestors suffered in slavery, we cannot stop the Holocaust from happening 70 years after it happened, we can't give back to the Palestinians the land they lost in 1948. History moves on. The Cuban people suffered greatly under Castro, but there's nothing we can do about that now. We can't undo the regime and create a democracy there. We've tried for 50 years and failed.

Instead, what we can do is focus, now, on 2 questions in this exact order of priority:

1. What is best for the United States?

2. What is best for the people of Cuba?

In terms of question #1 (which always has to be our FIRST and sometimes only consideration), I think it's pretty clear that by normalizing relations with Cuba, we improve ourselves in several areas. First we remove a long term security issue, and in so doing fulfill the Monroe Doctrine, which always made sense. (I stretch the original meaning of the Monroe Doctrine here, not just to include foreign intervention in the western hemisphere, but also to include that we should have no enemies in the western hemisphere.) Second, we're creating a new market for us to sell from and buy from, which long term will always improve our economy. (I get that not everyone believes this, but I am a HUGE believer in free trade.) Third, the hope is that thousands of Cuban-Americans might be reunited with loved ones at long last. In terms of the USA, I have trouble seeing any downside.

Point #2 is a bit more problematic, because we are allowing Cuba to retain it's dictatorship, which is not a benefit for the Cuban people. The hope is that increased trade will create more of a Cuban middle class, which will in turn improve their standard of living, which will in turn allow them to make a (hopefully) peaceful transition away from dictatorship. This is the exact same approach we have taken for decades with several nations around the world, including, of course, our former enemies in China, Vietnam, Cambodia, several African countries, etc. The result is mixed. We have yet to see real freedom in China or Vietnam. But on the other hand- what is the alternative? Certainly the standard of living in China has risen dramatically ever since we opened up trade with them. We had much to do with that and I think we can be proud of it. If we can improve the standard of living of the average Cuban through trade, that will also be an accomplishment while profiting us- win win.

(On a side note, I have moral qualms about the fact that we export tobacco to Vietnam and Asia in general, which earns us billions but poisons them and creates addicts. I wonder if we'll attempt this in Cuba as well. Probably.)

So I think this was a damn good decision.

 

[timschochet]

I also want to note that, just as with so many other political issues, The West Wing tackled the subject of Cuba nearly 10 years ago in an episode titled "Ninety Miles Away", toward the end of season 6. In that episode, they discussed and debated every aspect of this issue that is being talked about today. At the end of the show President Bartlett took the same action that Obama took yesterday.

 

[Da Guru]

This is like the opening of a new restaurant...

 

[mquinnjr]

This is like the opening of a new restaurant...

Amy's Baking Company?

 

[Thorn]

Some thoughts on Cuba:

The main complaint, mostly made by Cuban-American politicians and a few hard line conservatives like Sean Hannity, seems to be that we are doing nothing to address the human rights violations that the Cuban government has committed, and we are in effect rewarding the dictatorship and we will help make them rich as they control virtually all of Cuba's land and industry. Both statements are largely true. But I think they are short sided.

The first thing that people have to realize (and sadly they never do) is that it is impossible to do justice to past crimes. We cannot give blacks back the time their ancestors suffered in slavery, we cannot stop the Holocaust from happening 70 years after it happened, we can't give back to the Palestinians the land they lost in 1948. History moves on. The Cuban people suffered greatly under Castro, but there's nothing we can do about that now. We can't undo the regime and create a democracy there. We've tried for 50 years and failed.

Instead, what we can do is focus, now, on 2 questions in this exact order of priority:

1. What is best for the United States?

2. What is best for the people of Cuba?

In terms of question #1 (which always has to be our FIRST and sometimes only consideration), I think it's pretty clear that by normalizing relations with Cuba, we improve ourselves in several areas. First we remove a long term security issue, and in so doing fulfill the Monroe Doctrine, which always made sense. (I stretch the original meaning of the Monroe Doctrine here, not just to include foreign intervention in the western hemisphere, but also to include that we should have no enemies in the western hemisphere.) Second, we're creating a new market for us to sell from and buy from, which long term will always improve our economy. (I get that not everyone believes this, but I am a HUGE believer in free trade.) Third, the hope is that thousands of Cuban-Americans might be reunited with loved ones at long last. In terms of the USA, I have trouble seeing any downside.

Point #2 is a bit more problematic, because we are allowing Cuba to retain it's dictatorship, which is not a benefit for the Cuban people. The hope is that increased trade will create more of a Cuban middle class, which will in turn improve their standard of living, which will in turn allow them to make a (hopefully) peaceful transition away from dictatorship. This is the exact same approach we have taken for decades with several nations around the world, including, of course, our former enemies in China, Vietnam, Cambodia, several African countries, etc. The result is mixed. We have yet to see real freedom in China or Vietnam. But on the other hand- what is the alternative? Certainly the standard of living in China has risen dramatically ever since we opened up trade with them. We had much to do with that and I think we can be proud of it. If we can improve the standard of living of the average Cuban through trade, that will also be an accomplishment while profiting us- win win.

(On a side note, I have moral qualms about the fact that we export tobacco to Vietnam and Asia in general, which earns us billions but poisons them and creates addicts. I wonder if we'll attempt this in Cuba as well. Probably.)

So I think this was a damn good decision.

This is an interesting premise. Do you mean only in the context of foreign relations? Isn't it true that all crimes occurred in the past? Can there never be justice for them?

 

[timschochet]

Im saying that when things happen too long ago there is no way to achieve real justice. Sure you can punish a few criminals, but the Cubans who fled to Miami are never going to get their lives and land back that they lost.

 

[SaintsInDome2006]

Im saying that when things happen too long ago there is no way to achieve real justice. Sure you can punish a few criminals, but the Cubans who fled to Miami are never going to get their lives and land back that they lost.

Never? I wouldn't say never. It happened in Eastern and Central Europe, it can happen in Cuba. And once we get our paws on that place again we can restore the old order, with a dash of democracy, which will be nice.

 

[SaintsInDome2006]

Some thoughts on Cuba:

The main complaint, mostly made by Cuban-American politicians and a few hard line conservatives like Sean Hannity, seems to be that we are doing nothing to address the human rights violations that the Cuban government has committed, and we are in effect rewarding the dictatorship and we will help make them rich as they control virtually all of Cuba's land and industry. Both statements are largely true. But I think they are short sided.

The first thing that people have to realize (and sadly they never do) is that it is impossible to do justice to past crimes. We cannot give blacks back the time their ancestors suffered in slavery, we cannot stop the Holocaust from happening 70 years after it happened, we can't give back to the Palestinians the land they lost in 1948. History moves on. The Cuban people suffered greatly under Castro, but there's nothing we can do about that now. We can't undo the regime and create a democracy there. We've tried for 50 years and failed.

...

This is an interesting premise. Do you mean only in the context of foreign relations? Isn't it true that all crimes occurred in the past? Can there never be justice for them?

Cambodia has prosecuted the Khmer Rouge, Germany is still (like right now) prosecuting concentration camp guards, on and on, oh yes there can be justice.

 

[Henry Ford]

I think the issue is that when you take huge issues like "foreign policy with Cuba" or "slavery" you can't get justice. But the individuals impacted by those issues can get some measure of justice, whether it was 2 years ago, 200 years ago, or 2000 years ago.

We can't make the Holocaust not happen. But we can return property to a family whose priceless heirlooms and works of art were taken during the Holocaust and condemn to death the man who killed their patriarch and matriarch. It's not fair, but it's just.

 

[SaintsInDome2006]

I think the issue is that when you take huge issues like "foreign policy with Cuba" or "slavery" you can't get justice. But the individuals impacted by those issues can get some measure of justice, whether it was 2 years ago, 200 years ago, or 2000 years ago.

We can't make the Holocaust not happen. But we can return property to a family whose priceless heirlooms and works of art were taken during the Holocaust and condemn to death the man who killed their patriarch and matriarch. It's not fair, but it's just.

This is when it will happen - when the Cuban generals and apparatchiks cash in and try to convert their "state" properties to "personal" property like what happened in a good bit of China and Russia. The Cuban families with deeds will show up and be ready to plant their flags, hopefully the USA backs them up.

It would be nice to see the Fidelistas prosecuted for crimes against humanity but I'm far less expectant that will happen.

 

[Two Deep]

All right, now remember that I haven't seen Kirk Cameron's Saving Christmas yet, and that could change EVERYTHING. But, as for now, in no particular order:

Die Hard

A Christmas Carol (40's version)

Gremlins

Santa Claus Conquers the Martians

The Polar Express

Full Metal Jacket "Happy Birthday dear Jesus!"

Private Pyle I'm gonna give you three seconds; exactly three-#######-seconds to wipe that stupid looking grin off your face or I will gouge out your eyeballs and skull-#### you! ONE! TWO! THREE!

 

[Thorn]

Some thoughts on Cuba:

The main complaint, mostly made by Cuban-American politicians and a few hard line conservatives like Sean Hannity, seems to be that we are doing nothing to address the human rights violations that the Cuban government has committed, and we are in effect rewarding the dictatorship and we will help make them rich as they control virtually all of Cuba's land and industry. Both statements are largely true. But I think they are short sided.

The first thing that people have to realize (and sadly they never do) is that it is impossible to do justice to past crimes. We cannot give blacks back the time their ancestors suffered in slavery, we cannot stop the Holocaust from happening 70 years after it happened, we can't give back to the Palestinians the land they lost in 1948. History moves on. The Cuban people suffered greatly under Castro, but there's nothing we can do about that now. We can't undo the regime and create a democracy there. We've tried for 50 years and failed.

...

This is an interesting premise. Do you mean only in the context of foreign relations? Isn't it true that all crimes occurred in the past? Can there never be justice for them?

Cambodia has prosecuted the Khmer Rouge, Germany is still (like right now) prosecuting concentration camp guards, on and on, oh yes there can be justice.

It's also an odd logical leap. Tim's logic seems to be:

1. There was a crime

2. It's been a long time since that crime

3. There can never be justice for crimes that are "too old"

4. Therefore, we shouldn't try to punish the crime.

I think that's wrong.

I think it should be:

1. There was a crime

2. The punishment we've used has been ineffective as a deterrent for this crime, and has caused harm to those who are not criminal

3. We should stop this particular punishment because of #2

4. The crime is still ongoing, so we should investigate alternative punishments.

 

[Yankee23Fan]

Or, you know, we can just build a casino and enjoy a nice cigar by the pool.

 

[Henry Ford]

Or, you know, we can just build a casino and enjoy a nice cigar by the pool.

Mmmmm.... pool cigars.

 

[fatguyinalittlecoat]

How long does it take to type a post like that Cuba one on an iPhone?

 

[msommer]

The theme of my daughter's high school Christmas pageant this year was that 100 years ago, on Christmas Eve in France, the Germans, French and English stopped fighting, got out of their trenches, sang Silent Night together and then shook hands, exchanged photos, even started a soccer game. It was supposed to be a great moment for peace.

What they neglected to mention was that there would be another 4 years of incredibly stupid, pointless and extremely bloody fighting, and eventually the U.S. would get involved, before the war ended in a stalemate which guaranteed another bloody conflict 20 years later. IMO, this makes that night of peace seem pretty pointless. But a century later it's still idealized.

There was an article about that on BBC last week, written by German, essentially going :whoosh: or in John Oliver speak 'Why is this still a Thing'.

He also mentioned that Germany won the soccer game 3-2

 

[SaintsInDome2006]

How long does it take to type a post like that Cuba one on an iPhone?

Hmmmmm....

 

[Plorfu]

I come to this board to read some words and sometimes post some words. Whenever I post some words it's usually not a lot of words. Very rarely are they serious words. I don't think they're mean words very often, either, but I used to drink a lot so it's possible. Anyway, I think trying to engage in serious political discussion on the internet is stupid 99% of the time, but bostonfred said it used to be ok here, and I believe him because he's the goods. Otherwise, it's just dumb. I'm not saying to stop. I'm just saying it's dumb, unless it's just updates. The red/blue/ideology "debates" make me cry real tears.

Chillax, brohan, and take a load off. Avoid work and vote on who's hottest, get some NBA gambling leans, look at some cat .gifs and torment @ashleywheeler25 about the Tournament of Hot Dogs and #beefsparade. These are the important things in life. Not stupid crap like abortion and our policy on Iran.

 

[Henry Ford]

How long does it take to type a post like that Cuba one on an iPhone?

Might as well ask how long it takes the rain to condense from a cloud. Or a frown to become a smile. You might as well ask how long it would take to empty the ocean, or to count the grains of sand in Chronos's hourglass.

It takes as long as it takes, fatguy. As long as it takes.

 

[Plorfu]

How long does it take to type a post like that Cuba one on an iPhone?

Or a frown to become a smile.

Just tried this. .00348 seconds.

 

[PlasmaDogPlasma]

I'm guessing Tim can do 120 wpm on that thing

 

[TheAristocrat]

All right, now remember that I haven't seen Kirk Cameron's Saving Christmas yet, and that could change EVERYTHING. But, as for now, in no particular order:

Die Hard

A Christmas Carol (40's version)

Gremlins

Santa Claus Conquers the Martians

The Polar Express

Full Metal Jacket "Happy Birthday dear Jesus!"

Good call.

 

[otello]

1. e4

 

[timschochet]

Or, you know, we can just build a casino and enjoy a nice cigar by the pool.

Johnny Ola told me about this great nightclub- you won't believe what happens there...

 

[timschochet]

1. e4

d5

 

[msommer]

Some thoughts on Cuba:

The main complaint, mostly made by Cuban-American politicians and a few hard line conservatives like Sean Hannity, seems to be that we are doing nothing to address the human rights violations that the Cuban government has committed, and we are in effect rewarding the dictatorship and we will help make them rich as they control virtually all of Cuba's land and industry. Both statements are largely true. But I think they are short sided.

The first thing that people have to realize (and sadly they never do) is that it is impossible to do justice to past crimes. We cannot give blacks back the time their ancestors suffered in slavery, we cannot stop the Holocaust from happening 70 years after it happened, we can't give back to the Palestinians the land they lost in 1948. History moves on. The Cuban people suffered greatly under Castro, but there's nothing we can do about that now. We can't undo the regime and create a democracy there. We've tried for 50 years and failed.

...

This is an interesting premise. Do you mean only in the context of foreign relations? Isn't it true that all crimes occurred in the past? Can there never be justice for them?

Cambodia has prosecuted the Khmer Rouge, Germany is still (like right now) prosecuting concentration camp guards, on and on, oh yes there can be justice.

Not really. They've prosecuted a few of the high ranking guys only. For instance Hun Sen was once fairly high in Khmer Rouge - not prosecuted. IIRC he is the prime minister (or life or so).

ETA: The examples you list are domestic court cases. What does American foreign policy have to do with German domestic court cases?

If you want to try the Castro brothers your best analogy would be that Spanish judge that went after Pinochet. He unfortunately having less success with going after Franco's boys

 

[SaintsInDome2006]

The Cuba Archive project (www.cub aarchive.org) has already begun the heavy lifting by attempting to document the loss of life attributable to revolutionary zealotry. The project, ba sed in Chatham, N.J., covers the period from May 1952 -- when the cons titutional government fell to Gen. Fulgencio Batista -- to the present. It has so far verifi ed the names of 9,240 victims of the Castro regime and the circumstances of their deaths. Archive researchers meticulously insist on c onfirming stories of official murder from two inde p endent sources. Cuba Archive President Maria Werlau says the tota l number of victims could be higher by a factor of 10. Project Vice President Armando Lago, a Harvard- trained economist, has spent years studying the cost of the revolution and he estimat es that almost 78,000 innocents may have died trying to flee the dictatorship. Another 5,300 are known to have lost their lives fighting communism in the Escambray Mountains (mostly peasant farmers and their children) and at the Bay of Pigs. An estimated 14,000 C ubans were killed in Fidel's re volutionary adventures abroad, most notably his dispatch of 50,000 soldiers to Angola in the 1980s to help the Soviet-backed regime fight off the Unita insurgency. The archive project can be li kened to the 1999 "Black Book of Communism," which documented the world-wide cost of communism, noting th at "wherever the millenarian ideology of Communism was establis hed it quickly led to crime, te rror and repression." The Castro methodology, Cuba Archive finds, was much like that used in Poland and East Germany, less lethal than Stalin's pur ges, but equally effective in suppressing opposition. In the earliest days of the re volution, summary executions establ ished a culture of fear that quickly eliminated most resist ance. In the decades that foll owed, inhumane prison conditions often leading to death, unspeakable torture a nd privation were enough to keep Cubans cowed. Cuba Archive finds that some 5,600 Cubans have died in front of firing squads and another 1,200 in "extrajudicial assassinations." Che Guevara was a gleeful executioner at the infamous La Cabaña Fortress in 1959 where, und er his orders, at least 151 C ubans were lined up and shot. Children have not been spared. Of the 94 minor s whose deaths have b een documented by Cuba Archive, 22 died by firing squad and 32 in extrajudicial assassinations.

[SIZE=15pt]http://www.cubaarchive.org/downloads/CA22.pdf[/SIZE]

 

[SWC]

How does one unstar a thread

delete all your posts in it

how can a user get more stars i am asking for a friend who was just wondering take that to the bank bromigo

 

[SaintsInDome2006]

Some thoughts on Cuba:

The main complaint, mostly made by Cuban-American politicians and a few hard line conservatives like Sean Hannity, seems to be that we are doing nothing to address the human rights violations that the Cuban government has committed, and we are in effect rewarding the dictatorship and we will help make them rich as they control virtually all of Cuba's land and industry. Both statements are largely true. But I think they are short sided.

The first thing that people have to realize (and sadly they never do) is that it is impossible to do justice to past crimes. We cannot give blacks back the time their ancestors suffered in slavery, we cannot stop the Holocaust from happening 70 years after it happened, we can't give back to the Palestinians the land they lost in 1948. History moves on. The Cuban people suffered greatly under Castro, but there's nothing we can do about that now. We can't undo the regime and create a democracy there. We've tried for 50 years and failed.

...

This is an interesting premise. Do you mean only in the context of foreign relations? Isn't it true that all crimes occurred in the past? Can there never be justice for them?

Cambodia has prosecuted the Khmer Rouge, Germany is still (like right now) prosecuting concentration camp guards, on and on, oh yes there can be justice.

Not really. They've prosecuted a few of the high ranking guys only. For instance Hun Sen was once fairly high in Khmer Rouge - not prosecuted. IIRC he is the prime minister (or life or so).

ETA: The examples you list are domestic court cases. What does American foreign policy have to do with German domestic court cases?

If you want to try the Castro brothers your best analogy would be that Spanish judge that went after Pinochet. He unfortunately having less success with going after Franco's boys

Well my thought is that if all goes well we restore democracy and property owners get their property back and those who committed atrocities are brought to justice. If the USA can do what it can to help promote an environment where that can happen - by pushing our culture, demanding freedom and human rights, by getting our corporations and business in there, by getting Cuban and American travel freed there, by demanding free elections - then that would be great. Restoring normal relations could help with that process, but I would hope we actually do that once we get our foot in the door.

 

[timschochet]

The Cuba Archive project (www.cub aarchive.org) has already begun the heavy lifting by attempting to document the loss of life attributable to revolutionary zealotry. The project, ba sed in Chatham, N.J., covers the period from May 1952 -- when the cons titutional government fell to Gen. Fulgencio Batista -- to the present. It has so far verifi ed the names of 9,240 victims of the Castro regime and the circumstances of their deaths. Archive researchers meticulously insist on c onfirming stories of official murder from two inde p endent sources. Cuba Archive President Maria Werlau says the tota l number of victims could be higher by a factor of 10. Project Vice President Armando Lago, a Harvard- trained economist, has spent years studying the cost of the revolution and he estimat es that almost 78,000 innocents may have died trying to flee the dictatorship. Another 5,300 are known to have lost their lives fighting communism in the Escambray Mountains (mostly peasant farmers and their children) and at the Bay of Pigs. An estimated 14,000 C ubans were killed in Fidel's re volutionary adventures abroad, most notably his dispatch of 50,000 soldiers to Angola in the 1980s to help the Soviet-backed regime fight off the Unita insurgency. The archive project can be li kened to the 1999 "Black Book of Communism," which documented the world-wide cost of communism, noting th at "wherever the millenarian ideology of Communism was establis hed it quickly led to crime, te rror and repression." The Castro methodology, Cuba Archive finds, was much like that used in Poland and East Germany, less lethal than Stalin's pur ges, but equally effective in suppressing opposition. In the earliest days of the re volution, summary executions establ ished a culture of fear that quickly eliminated most resist ance. In the decades that foll owed, inhumane prison conditions often leading to death, unspeakable torture a nd privation were enough to keep Cubans cowed. Cuba Archive finds that some 5,600 Cubans have died in front of firing squads and another 1,200 in "extrajudicial assassinations." Che Guevara was a gleeful executioner at the infamous La Cabaña Fortress in 1959 where, und er his orders, at least 151 C ubans were lined up and shot. Children have not been spared. Of the 94 minor s whose deaths have b een documented by Cuba Archive, 22 died by firing squad and 32 in extrajudicial assassinations.

[SIZE=15pt]http://www.cubaarchive.org/downloads/CA22.pdf[/SIZE]

I don't understand your point in posting this. We know that the Cuban government has done some very bad things. Does that mean, in your opinion, that we should never have relations with them?

 

[Da Guru]

Tim are you "quarantined" to this thread only now?

 

[timschochet]

Some thoughts on Cuba:

The main complaint, mostly made by Cuban-American politicians and a few hard line conservatives like Sean Hannity, seems to be that we are doing nothing to address the human rights violations that the Cuban government has committed, and we are in effect rewarding the dictatorship and we will help make them rich as they control virtually all of Cuba's land and industry. Both statements are largely true. But I think they are short sided.

The first thing that people have to realize (and sadly they never do) is that it is impossible to do justice to past crimes. We cannot give blacks back the time their ancestors suffered in slavery, we cannot stop the Holocaust from happening 70 years after it happened, we can't give back to the Palestinians the land they lost in 1948. History moves on. The Cuban people suffered greatly under Castro, but there's nothing we can do about that now. We can't undo the regime and create a democracy there. We've tried for 50 years and failed.

...

This is an interesting premise. Do you mean only in the context of foreign relations? Isn't it true that all crimes occurred in the past? Can there never be justice for them?

Cambodia has prosecuted the Khmer Rouge, Germany is still (like right now) prosecuting concentration camp guards, on and on, oh yes there can be justice.

Not really. They've prosecuted a few of the high ranking guys only. For instance Hun Sen was once fairly high in Khmer Rouge - not prosecuted. IIRC he is the prime minister (or life or so).

ETA: The examples you list are domestic court cases. What does American foreign policy have to do with German domestic court cases?

If you want to try the Castro brothers your best analogy would be that Spanish judge that went after Pinochet. He unfortunately having less success with going after Franco's boys

Well my thought is that if all goes well we restore democracy and property owners get their property back and those who committed atrocities are brought to justice. If the USA can do what it can to help promote an environment where that can happen - by pushing our culture, demanding freedom and human rights, by getting our corporations and business in there, by getting Cuban and American travel freed there, by demanding free elections - then would be great. Restoring normal relations could help with that process, but I would hope we actually do that once we get our foot in the door.

Very little of this is going to happen. We're not going to "restore democracy" (I don't think they had democracy in the first place). We're not going to bring people to justice. We're not going to "demand freedom and human rights". We're going to have, hopefully, freer trade. That will have to be enough. I wouldn't expect any of the rest.

 

[SaintsInDome2006]

The Cuba Archive project (www.cub aarchive.org) has already begun the heavy lifting by attempting to document the loss of life attributable to revolutionary zealotry. The project, ba sed in Chatham, N.J., covers the period from May 1952 -- when the cons titutional government fell to Gen. Fulgencio Batista -- to the present. It has so far verifi ed the names of 9,240 victims of the Castro regime and the circumstances of their deaths. Archive researchers meticulously insist on c onfirming stories of official murder from two inde p endent sources. Cuba Archive President Maria Werlau says the tota l number of victims could be higher by a factor of 10. Project Vice President Armando Lago, a Harvard- trained economist, has spent years studying the cost of the revolution and he estimat es that almost 78,000 innocents may have died trying to flee the dictatorship. Another 5,300 are known to have lost their lives fighting communism in the Escambray Mountains (mostly peasant farmers and their children) and at the Bay of Pigs. An estimated 14,000 C ubans were killed in Fidel's re volutionary adventures abroad, most notably his dispatch of 50,000 soldiers to Angola in the 1980s to help the Soviet-backed regime fight off the Unita insurgency. The archive project can be li kened to the 1999 "Black Book of Communism," which documented the world-wide cost of communism, noting th at "wherever the millenarian ideology of Communism was establis hed it quickly led to crime, te rror and repression." The Castro methodology, Cuba Archive finds, was much like that used in Poland and East Germany, less lethal than Stalin's pur ges, but equally effective in suppressing opposition. In the earliest days of the re volution, summary executions establ ished a culture of fear that quickly eliminated most resist ance. In the decades that foll owed, inhumane prison conditions often leading to death, unspeakable torture a nd privation were enough to keep Cubans cowed. Cuba Archive finds that some 5,600 Cubans have died in front of firing squads and another 1,200 in "extrajudicial assassinations." Che Guevara was a gleeful executioner at the infamous La Cabaña Fortress in 1959 where, und er his orders, at least 151 C ubans were lined up and shot. Children have not been spared. Of the 94 minor s whose deaths have b een documented by Cuba Archive, 22 died by firing squad and 32 in extrajudicial assassinations.

[SIZE=15pt]http://www.cubaarchive.org/downloads/CA22.pdf[/SIZE]

I don't understand your point in posting this. We know that the Cuban government has done some very bad things. Does that mean, in your opinion, that we should never have relations with them?

No, it was a follow-up on the responses further up about atrocities and the sort of things that would require reconciliation or justice.

As I've stated the US has a wonderful way of worming itself into a nation so I can only hope our involvement in their economy and government will help bring the Castro regime down.

 

[SaintsInDome2006]

Some thoughts on Cuba:

The main complaint, mostly made by Cuban-American politicians and a few hard line conservatives like Sean Hannity, seems to be that we are doing nothing to address the human rights violations that the Cuban government has committed, and we are in effect rewarding the dictatorship and we will help make them rich as they control virtually all of Cuba's land and industry. Both statements are largely true. But I think they are short sided.

The first thing that people have to realize (and sadly they never do) is that it is impossible to do justice to past crimes. We cannot give blacks back the time their ancestors suffered in slavery, we cannot stop the Holocaust from happening 70 years after it happened, we can't give back to the Palestinians the land they lost in 1948. History moves on. The Cuban people suffered greatly under Castro, but there's nothing we can do about that now. We can't undo the regime and create a democracy there. We've tried for 50 years and failed.

...

This is an interesting premise. Do you mean only in the context of foreign relations? Isn't it true that all crimes occurred in the past? Can there never be justice for them?

Cambodia has prosecuted the Khmer Rouge, Germany is still (like right now) prosecuting concentration camp guards, on and on, oh yes there can be justice.

Not really. They've prosecuted a few of the high ranking guys only. For instance Hun Sen was once fairly high in Khmer Rouge - not prosecuted. IIRC he is the prime minister (or life or so).

ETA: The examples you list are domestic court cases. What does American foreign policy have to do with German domestic court cases?

If you want to try the Castro brothers your best analogy would be that Spanish judge that went after Pinochet. He unfortunately having less success with going after Franco's boys

Well my thought is that if all goes well we restore democracy and property owners get their property back and those who committed atrocities are brought to justice. If the USA can do what it can to help promote an environment where that can happen - by pushing our culture, demanding freedom and human rights, by getting our corporations and business in there, by getting Cuban and American travel freed there, by demanding free elections - then would be great. Restoring normal relations could help with that process, but I would hope we actually do that once we get our foot in the door.

Very little of this is going to happen. We're not going to "restore democracy" (I don't think they had democracy in the first place). We're not going to bring people to justice. We're not going to "demand freedom and human rights". We're going to have, hopefully, freer trade. That will have to be enough. I wouldn't expect any of the rest.

Well not out of this administration that's for sure, I'm thinking past 2016.

 

[Notorious T.R.E.]

Some thoughts on Cuba:

The main complaint, mostly made by Cuban-American politicians and a few hard line conservatives like Sean Hannity, seems to be that we are doing nothing to address the human rights violations that the Cuban government has committed, and we are in effect rewarding the dictatorship and we will help make them rich as they control virtually all of Cuba's land and industry. Both statements are largely true. But I think they are short sided.

The first thing that people have to realize (and sadly they never do) is that it is impossible to do justice to past crimes. We cannot give blacks back the time their ancestors suffered in slavery, we cannot stop the Holocaust from happening 70 years after it happened, we can't give back to the Palestinians the land they lost in 1948. History moves on. The Cuban people suffered greatly under Castro, but there's nothing we can do about that now. We can't undo the regime and create a democracy there. We've tried for 50 years and failed.

...

This is an interesting premise. Do you mean only in the context of foreign relations? Isn't it true that all crimes occurred in the past? Can there never be justice for them?

Cambodia has prosecuted the Khmer Rouge, Germany is still (like right now) prosecuting concentration camp guards, on and on, oh yes there can be justice.

Not really. They've prosecuted a few of the high ranking guys only. For instance Hun Sen was once fairly high in Khmer Rouge - not prosecuted. IIRC he is the prime minister (or life or so).

ETA: The examples you list are domestic court cases. What does American foreign policy have to do with German domestic court cases?

If you want to try the Castro brothers your best analogy would be that Spanish judge that went after Pinochet. He unfortunately having less success with going after Franco's boys

Well my thought is that if all goes well we restore democracy and property owners get their property back and those who committed atrocities are brought to justice. If the USA can do what it can to help promote an environment where that can happen - by pushing our culture, demanding freedom and human rights, by getting our corporations and business in there, by getting Cuban and American travel freed there, by demanding free elections - then would be great. Restoring normal relations could help with that process, but I would hope we actually do that once we get our foot in the door.

Very little of this is going to happen. We're not going to "restore democracy" (I don't think they had democracy in the first place). We're not going to bring people to justice. We're not going to "demand freedom and human rights". We're going to have, hopefully, freer trade. That will have to be enough. I wouldn't expect any of the rest.

Well not out of this administration that's for sure, I'm thinking past 2016.

When Jeb Bush rides in on his mighty steed?

 

[SaintsInDome2006]

Some thoughts on Cuba:

The main complaint, mostly made by Cuban-American politicians and a few hard line conservatives like Sean Hannity, seems to be that we are doing nothing to address the human rights violations that the Cuban government has committed, and we are in effect rewarding the dictatorship and we will help make them rich as they control virtually all of Cuba's land and industry. Both statements are largely true. But I think they are short sided.

The first thing that people have to realize (and sadly they never do) is that it is impossible to do justice to past crimes. We cannot give blacks back the time their ancestors suffered in slavery, we cannot stop the Holocaust from happening 70 years after it happened, we can't give back to the Palestinians the land they lost in 1948. History moves on. The Cuban people suffered greatly under Castro, but there's nothing we can do about that now. We can't undo the regime and create a democracy there. We've tried for 50 years and failed.

...

This is an interesting premise. Do you mean only in the context of foreign relations? Isn't it true that all crimes occurred in the past? Can there never be justice for them?

Cambodia has prosecuted the Khmer Rouge, Germany is still (like right now) prosecuting concentration camp guards, on and on, oh yes there can be justice.

Not really. They've prosecuted a few of the high ranking guys only. For instance Hun Sen was once fairly high in Khmer Rouge - not prosecuted. IIRC he is the prime minister (or life or so).

ETA: The examples you list are domestic court cases. What does American foreign policy have to do with German domestic court cases?

If you want to try the Castro brothers your best analogy would be that Spanish judge that went after Pinochet. He unfortunately having less success with going after Franco's boys

Well my thought is that if all goes well we restore democracy and property owners get their property back and those who committed atrocities are brought to justice. If the USA can do what it can to help promote an environment where that can happen - by pushing our culture, demanding freedom and human rights, by getting our corporations and business in there, by getting Cuban and American travel freed there, by demanding free elections - then would be great. Restoring normal relations could help with that process, but I would hope we actually do that once we get our foot in the door.

Very little of this is going to happen. We're not going to "restore democracy" (I don't think they had democracy in the first place). We're not going to bring people to justice. We're not going to "demand freedom and human rights". We're going to have, hopefully, freer trade. That will have to be enough. I wouldn't expect any of the rest.

Well not out of this administration that's for sure, I'm thinking past 2016.

When Jeb Bush rides in on his mighty steed?

For cryin' out loud let's hope not.

 

[timschochet]

Tim are you "quarantined" to this thread only now?

Quarantined is not the word I would use.

I'm going to try to stick in this thread. The only exceptions would be if some thread starts about a dominant, breaking news story, I might comment in that. I will likely post in the college football and other sports threads about a game going on. I will continue to post in any draft threads or other games I might be involved with (like the college football pool and the chess tournaments we sometimes run). And there are some music threads that I will still be a part of, like the Blues thread I started.

But for now, I will try to address all political and cultural issues in this thread. We'll see how it goes.

 

[timschochet]

The Cuba Archive project (www.cub aarchive.org) has already begun the heavy lifting by attempting to document the loss of life attributable to revolutionary zealotry. The project, ba sed in Chatham, N.J., covers the period from May 1952 -- when the cons titutional government fell to Gen. Fulgencio Batista -- to the present. It has so far verifi ed the names of 9,240 victims of the Castro regime and the circumstances of their deaths. Archive researchers meticulously insist on c onfirming stories of official murder from two inde p endent sources. Cuba Archive President Maria Werlau says the tota l number of victims could be higher by a factor of 10. Project Vice President Armando Lago, a Harvard- trained economist, has spent years studying the cost of the revolution and he estimat es that almost 78,000 innocents may have died trying to flee the dictatorship. Another 5,300 are known to have lost their lives fighting communism in the Escambray Mountains (mostly peasant farmers and their children) and at the Bay of Pigs. An estimated 14,000 C ubans were killed in Fidel's re volutionary adventures abroad, most notably his dispatch of 50,000 soldiers to Angola in the 1980s to help the Soviet-backed regime fight off the Unita insurgency. The archive project can be li kened to the 1999 "Black Book of Communism," which documented the world-wide cost of communism, noting th at "wherever the millenarian ideology of Communism was establis hed it quickly led to crime, te rror and repression." The Castro methodology, Cuba Archive finds, was much like that used in Poland and East Germany, less lethal than Stalin's pur ges, but equally effective in suppressing opposition. In the earliest days of the re volution, summary executions establ ished a culture of fear that quickly eliminated most resist ance. In the decades that foll owed, inhumane prison conditions often leading to death, unspeakable torture a nd privation were enough to keep Cubans cowed. Cuba Archive finds that some 5,600 Cubans have died in front of firing squads and another 1,200 in "extrajudicial assassinations." Che Guevara was a gleeful executioner at the infamous La Cabaña Fortress in 1959 where, und er his orders, at least 151 C ubans were lined up and shot. Children have not been spared. Of the 94 minor s whose deaths have b een documented by Cuba Archive, 22 died by firing squad and 32 in extrajudicial assassinations.

[SIZE=15pt]http://www.cubaarchive.org/downloads/CA22.pdf[/SIZE]

I don't understand your point in posting this. We know that the Cuban government has done some very bad things. Does that mean, in your opinion, that we should never have relations with them?

No, it was a follow-up on the responses further up about atrocities and the sort of things that would require reconciliation or justice.

As I've stated the US has a wonderful way of worming itself into a nation so I can only hope our involvement in their economy and government will help bring the Castro regime down.

Reconciliation is an interesting word. Are you familiar with Nelson Mandela's Truth and Reconciliation Commission? It was an interesting and novel way to handle this sort of issue, and it seems to me that South Africa is better off as a result. Indeed, it might be Mandela's single greatest achievement.

 

[SaintsInDome2006]

The Cuba Archive project (www.cub aarchive.org) has already begun the heavy lifting by attempting to document the loss of life attributable to revolutionary zealotry. The project, ba sed in Chatham, N.J., covers the period from May 1952 -- when the cons titutional government fell to Gen. Fulgencio Batista -- to the present. It has so far verifi ed the names of 9,240 victims of the Castro regime and the circumstances of their deaths. Archive researchers meticulously insist on c onfirming stories of official murder from two inde p endent sources. Cuba Archive President Maria Werlau says the tota l number of victims could be higher by a factor of 10. Project Vice President Armando Lago, a Harvard- trained economist, has spent years studying the cost of the revolution and he estimat es that almost 78,000 innocents may have died trying to flee the dictatorship. Another 5,300 are known to have lost their lives fighting communism in the Escambray Mountains (mostly peasant farmers and their children) and at the Bay of Pigs. An estimated 14,000 C ubans were killed in Fidel's re volutionary adventures abroad, most notably his dispatch of 50,000 soldiers to Angola in the 1980s to help the Soviet-backed regime fight off the Unita insurgency. The archive project can be li kened to the 1999 "Black Book of Communism," which documented the world-wide cost of communism, noting th at "wherever the millenarian ideology of Communism was establis hed it quickly led to crime, te rror and repression." The Castro methodology, Cuba Archive finds, was much like that used in Poland and East Germany, less lethal than Stalin's pur ges, but equally effective in suppressing opposition. In the earliest days of the re volution, summary executions establ ished a culture of fear that quickly eliminated most resist ance. In the decades that foll owed, inhumane prison conditions often leading to death, unspeakable torture a nd privation were enough to keep Cubans cowed. Cuba Archive finds that some 5,600 Cubans have died in front of firing squads and another 1,200 in "extrajudicial assassinations." Che Guevara was a gleeful executioner at the infamous La Cabaña Fortress in 1959 where, und er his orders, at least 151 C ubans were lined up and shot. Children have not been spared. Of the 94 minor s whose deaths have b een documented by Cuba Archive, 22 died by firing squad and 32 in extrajudicial assassinations.

[SIZE=15pt]http://www.cubaarchive.org/downloads/CA22.pdf[/SIZE]

I don't understand your point in posting this. We know that the Cuban government has done some very bad things. Does that mean, in your opinion, that we should never have relations with them?

No, it was a follow-up on the responses further up about atrocities and the sort of things that would require reconciliation or justice.

As I've stated the US has a wonderful way of worming itself into a nation so I can only hope our involvement in their economy and government will help bring the Castro regime down.

Reconciliation is an interesting word. Are you familiar with Nelson Mandela's Truth and Reconciliation Commission? It was an interesting and novel way to handle this sort of issue, and it seems to me that South Africa is better off as a result. Indeed, it might be Mandela's single greatest achievement.

Yes, right, that could happen too. But either way there has to be a transition. In East Germany they opened all the Stassi files. That would be good too.

 

[McGarnicle]

Cuban? No, Dutch Irish. My father was from Wales.