timschochet's thread- Mods, please move this thread to the Politics Subforum, thank you (2 Viewers)

[Gawain]

Please update title to:

timschochet's thread- 100 People tim's heard of

 

[timschochet]

Please update title to: timschochet's thread- 100 People tim's heard of

lolBut suppose I HAVENT heard of some of them?

 

[Sweet J]

Obviously I have a lot of people ranked ahead of Marshall. I'm sure I'll be hearing more about this from you law school types.

Yankee, my original list included Ayn Rand, but I was forced to leave her off. Would that have made your head explode?

IK, Yankee, Rover, Tommygunz, and Tobias would all have simultaneous cross-partisan brain explosions.

 

[Sweet J]

81. Stonewall Jackson

Always mystify, mislead, and surprise the enemy if possible.

Thomas J. Jackson was only famous during the last year of his life: from March of 1862, when the Valley Campaign began, to May of 1863, when he was shot by friendly fire at the Battle of Chancellorsville. During those 14 months, Stonewall Jackson was the most popular man in the Confederacy, bigger than Jefferson Davis or Robert E. Lee. He was also regarded by the north as invincible. And he created a legacy as one of the greatest military minds in world history- and one of the strangest.

Jackson received the nickname "Stonewall" during First Manassas (Bull Run) when another General, Barnard Bee of South Carolina, cried, "look at Jackson, standing there like a stone wall!" Though this was regarded as a compliment, some historians believe it was actually a complaint because Jackson wasn't moving fast enough for Bee. The truth of this will never be known because Bee died almost immediately after making the statement. Jackson was a minor hero after that battle, and his troops became known as the Stonewall Brigade. But it was in the Shenandoah Valley that Jackson became world famous. During the Valley campaign he was outnumbered by federal troops 3 to 1, yet he fought 5 engagements, and each one Jackson had the majority at the point of attack. He accomplished this feat through speed and by taking advantage of the technology of trains for the first time in warfare. Jackson's strategy is still studied by military historians today.

In the Seven Days Campaign which followed, Jackson faltered- most historians blame this on exhaustion. But following that lapse, he continued to perform brilliantly until his death. Jackson was very secretive about his orders; he explained very little to his subordinates. Military experts believe that Stonewall had an implicit understanding with Lee and that Lee didn't have to give him direct orders; Jackson knew what to do. This theory is used to explain part of the reason why Lee lost at Gettysburg: **** Ewell, who took over Jackson's troops, didn't understand Lee's implicit commands and so failed to take the heights early on. (Other historians believe this justification was part of the "Lost Cause" movement which attempted to glorify Lee at the expense of all other officers.)

As I wrote, Jackson had strange habits, such as sucking on lemons all day during battle and standing straight without moving for hours because he believed that his blood circulated better. He was a deeply religious man, a Presbyterian, and he was said to have treated all blacks he met with equal respect. However, he also believed that God had ordained slavery. Like Lee he was a Virginian (my reference to the Virginia Military Institute is because Jackson taught there and is revered there), and he felt greater loyalty to the state than to the Union. Next to Lee, Stonewall Jackson remains the most famous military leader of the Confederacy.

Next up: The illustrator who became a doctor...

Apropos of nothing, but doesn't Stonewall Jackson's last year of life read like it was written by George RR Martin.

Reader: "What the f^ck! This kickass character comes out of nowhere, is incredibly interesting, battlefield genius, religious nut, and you go and kill him off before the war is even over? By his own guy? And you let that alcoholic jackhole Grant live? F-ck it, I'm done reading this civil war saga."

 

[timschochet]

Never thought of it but yeah, great analogy!

 

[Yankee23Fan]

Obviously I have a lot of people ranked ahead of Marshall. I'm sure I'll be hearing more about this from you law school types.

Yankee, my original list included Ayn Rand, but I was forced to leave her off. Would that have made your head explode?

She shouldn't be on a list of the top 100 people in the world named Ayn.

 

[Yankee23Fan]

81. Stonewall Jackson

Always mystify, mislead, and surprise the enemy if possible.

Thomas J. Jackson was only famous during the last year of his life: from March of 1862, when the Valley Campaign began, to May of 1863, when he was shot by friendly fire at the Battle of Chancellorsville. During those 14 months, Stonewall Jackson was the most popular man in the Confederacy, bigger than Jefferson Davis or Robert E. Lee. He was also regarded by the north as invincible. And he created a legacy as one of the greatest military minds in world history- and one of the strangest.

Jackson received the nickname "Stonewall" during First Manassas (Bull Run) when another General, Barnard Bee of South Carolina, cried, "look at Jackson, standing there like a stone wall!" Though this was regarded as a compliment, some historians believe it was actually a complaint because Jackson wasn't moving fast enough for Bee. The truth of this will never be known because Bee died almost immediately after making the statement. Jackson was a minor hero after that battle, and his troops became known as the Stonewall Brigade. But it was in the Shenandoah Valley that Jackson became world famous. During the Valley campaign he was outnumbered by federal troops 3 to 1, yet he fought 5 engagements, and each one Jackson had the majority at the point of attack. He accomplished this feat through speed and by taking advantage of the technology of trains for the first time in warfare. Jackson's strategy is still studied by military historians today.

In the Seven Days Campaign which followed, Jackson faltered- most historians blame this on exhaustion. But following that lapse, he continued to perform brilliantly until his death. Jackson was very secretive about his orders; he explained very little to his subordinates. Military experts believe that Stonewall had an implicit understanding with Lee and that Lee didn't have to give him direct orders; Jackson knew what to do. This theory is used to explain part of the reason why Lee lost at Gettysburg: **** Ewell, who took over Jackson's troops, didn't understand Lee's implicit commands and so failed to take the heights early on. (Other historians believe this justification was part of the "Lost Cause" movement which attempted to glorify Lee at the expense of all other officers.)

As I wrote, Jackson had strange habits, such as sucking on lemons all day during battle and standing straight without moving for hours because he believed that his blood circulated better. He was a deeply religious man, a Presbyterian, and he was said to have treated all blacks he met with equal respect. However, he also believed that God had ordained slavery. Like Lee he was a Virginian (my reference to the Virginia Military Institute is because Jackson taught there and is revered there), and he felt greater loyalty to the state than to the Union. Next to Lee, Stonewall Jackson remains the most famous military leader of the Confederacy.

Next up: The illustrator who became a doctor...

Apropos of nothing, but doesn't Stonewall Jackson's last year of life read like it was written by George RR Martin.

Reader: "What the f^ck! This kickass character comes out of nowhere, is incredibly interesting, battlefield genius, religious nut, and you go and kill him off before the war is even over? By his own guy? And you let that alcoholic jackhole Grant live? F-ck it, I'm done reading this civil war saga."

That is damn brilliant.

 

[Yankee23Fan]

Wait, I'm starting to just wrap my mind around this flustercuck.

You have Stonewall Jackson ahead of Andrew Carnegie? Are you mother ******* insane? Forget John Marshall for a second because I'm not a huge fan anyway, but ahead of Andrew Carnegie? That Andrew Carnegie. Not some some guy you bumped into on the street who was trying to buy a commercial building to sell pagers a few weeks ago.

This list can't be real. It just can't. I'm treating it like a fishing expedition from this point on. I can't wait until John Wilkes Boothe gets named in the mid teens.

 

[timschochet]

80. Dr. Seuss

Today you are you, that is truer than true. There is no one alive who is youer than you.

If I have offered that quote without mentioning who wrote it, I'm guessing 99% of you would be able to guess who wrote it. Not because anyone would necessarily know where it's from (Happy Birthday to You!) but because the writing style is so unique, so distinctive and instantly recognizable. Has there ever been a writer as universally recognizable, distinctive, and well-known as Dr. Seuss? Hard for me to think of one. Very few artistic creators of any kind exist in which nearly every American of a certain age is familiar with their creations- I can think only of a tiny number, and they all made this list, deservedly.

Theodore Seuss Geisel started using the pen name Dr. Seuss while still at Dartmouth. His distinctive drawing style, also instantly recognizable, was developed before his writing style, as he created cartoons for Vanity Fair and Life, and ads for Flit and Standard Oil. His first children's book, the classic And to Think That I Saw It on Mulberry Street, was published in 1937. During the war he produced animated films for the army.

According to Wiki, several of books had some political themes hidden in them. Some of these seem obvious; others never occurred to me. Here are some examples:

The Lorax- environmentalism and consumerism (that one's obvious- of all of Seuss's books, The Lorax is the most overstated IMO)

The Sneetches- racial equality (Actually I thought this was more about class equality, but OK)

The Butter Battle Book- arms race (no clue- I was already an adult when this one was written, and I read it to my kids, but I didn't get the message.)

Yertle the Turtle- Hitler (really? this is the one that stuns me. My mind made NO connection to this.)

How the Grinch Stole Christmas- the materialism and consumerism of the Christmas season (And again, I didn't quite get this argument- I thought it was simply about a grouchy dude)

Horton Hears A Who- Isolationism vs. Internationalism (This one I figured out.)

Regarding the last book mentioned- "A person's a person, no matter how small" is supposed to refer to countries in Africa and Asia who matter despite what we think of them. However, it was grabbed up by the pro-life movement. Since Geisel was a life long liberal and pro-choicer, his estate has consistently demanded that the pro-life movement stop using the phrase, though some of them still do.

In closing, I want to mention that there is one Seuss book I really dislike: Green Eggs and Ham, which seems to be everyone's favorite. I just don't get why. Sam I Am is pushy and rude. The guy said no, why can't he just leave it alone. Seriously, I don't think this sort of pushiness is a good thing to teach children. And what if it's not green eggs and ham (which sounds disgusting, BTW) but marijuana or heroin? How would you respond to some dude following your kid around and saying "try it try it try it!" It's an annoying, disturbing book. End of rant.

Next up: The "Grand Old Man of the Army" (though better known by another nickname...)

 

[Yankee23Fan]

Theodore Roosevelt (1901-1909)

Public Acumen/Persuasion

Everyone knows he gets a 10 here, right? Roosevelt was the first President to use the power of the media to speak directly to the American people. The media was changing to a more independent and less party run entity and Roosevelt’s personality was perfect for the times. And the people generally loved him. The media did as well with his bombastic personality and his presence that was clearly bigger than any room he was in. His bully pulpit drastically changed American politics and he may have used it about as well as any President has ever done.

War & Crisis

Roosevelt faced a changing country. More urban centers, millions of immigrants and changing economy created an unstable arena for the working man. His progressive policies attacked what he saw as injustice in the daily living of citizens. When Upton Sinclair wrote his famous book, Roosevelt took to used it to change policy and the people loved him for it. He went after monopolies that were making things worse for working people and became the great “trust buster.”

The manner in which he handled foreign affairs, addressed below, basically stopped anything from becoming a crisis and so his focus on emergent issues of the day were domestic. He used his skills to end a strike in Pennsylvania that could have had serious repercussions in the economy. The agreement he came up with, The Square Deal, ended up defining Roosevelt. It also allowed future President’s to give specific names to their legislative agenda and what followed was the New Deal, the Fair Deal and so on.

Economy

Roosevelt gets solid grades here as well. His determination to fight for progressive issues such as workers rights, environmental protection, and an economy where everyone had a chance to succeed by attacking monopolies and corruption kept the economy humming along. He worked with big business and against it when he had to and balanced the opposite sides of the issues massively well. Only towards the end of his second term did Roosevelt begin his quest that seemed like a war against big business, but during the meat of his administration he gets good grades here.

Foreign Policy

It was, put simply, exceptional. Roosevelt wanted the American military to be a world power and that is what he set out to do. Massively reforming the army and the navy. By the end of his term the navy was the third largest in the world. He also eased trade tariffs with several nations to get more goods in and out of the country.

His Roosevelt Corrollary to the Monroe Doctrine was a brilliant move. Following a problem with Germany in Venezuala, Roosevelt made it American policy to basically gurantee the debts of central American and Caribbean nations to European powers so that there was no need for Europe to play a role in the region. Germany backed down and accepted this position and it brought a significant amount of peace to the region.

He got the sides in the Russo-Japanese War to sit down at the table with him as the mediator and he effectively ended that war through his negotiations, earning himself the Nobel Peace Prize. He did support Japan’s military takeover of the Korean peninsula though. History is mixed on that. From America’s point of view it was a good deal because in return the Japanese government agreed to limit unskilled and uneducated Japanese immigration to the west coast which was causing problems in California. It ended up forming a good deal of good will between Japan and America that lasted until the early 1930’s.

Roosevelt also finally did what no other President could do the past 50 years and got the Panama Canal zone under American control. The canal was completed in 1914 and exploded trade in the region.

Germany and France also asked Roosevelt to work with them on rising tensions over Morrocco. War was certainly possible between the countries and with Roosevelt’s leadership at the conference in Spain, attended by the 13 most powerful nations in the world at the time, Roosevelt steered the parties to a compromise that saw a reduction in French power in the country and alleviated Germany’s fears about it. It was another solid success in his ledger.

Roosevelt put William Howard Taft in charge of the Phillipeans and wanted desperately for that nation to achieve its own independence, seeing them as a massive problem for American interests in how they had governed the islands in the past. Overall, while Roosevelt did believe in expanding America’s power globally, he used diplomacy about as well as you could. To show, however, the power of his resolve if tested he had his Great White Fleet of battleships sail the world to show the world that the American Navy was ready to protect and defend the interests of the American government.

Executive Skills/Congress

Roosevelt got the Elkins and Hepburn Acts passed to attack monopolies. He established the Departments of Commerce and Labor. He broke the Beef Trust that was controlling American food supplies. He got the Pure Food and Drug Act passed. He fought for and passed the Meat Inspection act after Upton Sinclair showed the horrors of that industry. He got the Newlands Reclemation Act and preserved millions of acres of land in the nation for conservation purposes. He established the Parks Service and opened 5 National Parks. There is little you can fault Roosevelt for when it comes to being an executive officer and working with Congress. When they didn’t go along with him he used the media against them and they would balk. Overall, he was about as successful as you could be. Save one area.

Justice/Rights

Roosevelt was a racist. You can say that about almost all of our President’s, but he was. He believed that blacks were in general inferior to whites, but that there were blacks that were better, individually, than whites. He did little to help black voting rights in the south. He appointed blacks to federal positions in the south but didn’t fight for the appointments with Congress either. And in 1906 when a small handful of black soldiers were accused of killing a white man in Texas, and then claimed their innocence, Roosevelt like much of the white community assumed them to be guilty and without trial or hearing he forced the dishonorable discharge of three companies numbering 160 men of black soldiers as punishment.

Context

Roosevelt was bigger than his times in almost every way. His enormous personality simply engulfed everything around it. He saw the change in the media and ran with it, using them against the Washington power structure when he wanted to and spoke directly to the American people. He saw the need for American power to grow around the world and through mostly peaceful diplomatic ways he pushed it even faster always making sure everyone also saw the power he was willing to use behind his words. As the country was massively changing at the turn of the century and urban areas were becoming the focus of domestic politics he energized a progressive movement for workers rights and government regulation designed to protect the American people from business interests that ran free for over a century. The 20th century opened with Roosevelt in the White House and he pushed America into the century with all his force and might, and ushered in the ultimate creation of American as a world power.

Conclusion

Teddy joined Washington, Jefferson and Lincoln on Mount Rushmore for good reason. Up to that time, there were no bigger men in American politics that occupied the White House. Unlike great men like Franklin, Adams, Madison, Hamilton and even William Jennings Bryan and Henry Clay, these four guys took greatest in the oval office to new heights. In turn, Roosevelt has dwarfed McKinley in history even though McKinley deserves the recognition he has been given here previously. On persuasion he gets a 10, on crisis he gets an 8, on economy 7, foreign policy 10, Congress 10, civil rights 5, and context 10. 60 total points for the guy that carried a big stick. The ultimate power of his personality comes in a true story from his time when he ran for a third term. On October 14, 1912, while getting ready to deliver a speech, Roosevelt was shot in the chest by a would be assassin. Instead of going to the hospital, Roosevelt demanded to give his planned 90 minute speech while the bullet was still there and he was still bleeding. His remarks sum up his administration perfectly,

“Friends, I shall ask you to be as quiet as possible as I speak. For I do not know whether you fully understand that I have just been shot. But it takes more than a bullet to stop a bull moose.” And he pulled out his prepared speech from his pocket – complete with the bullet hole and blood on the paper. His actual death hasn’t even killed him and his legacy.

 

[Yankee23Fan]

One Fish Two Fish Red Fish Blue fish is more important to American history than Marbury v. Madison and the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace.

I'm floored I am, floored I say, that someone can think something so ridiculous this day.

 

[timschochet]

One Fish Two Fish Red Fish Blue fish is more important to American history than Marbury v. Madison and the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace.

I'm floored I am, floored I say, that someone can think something so ridiculous this day.

I suggest you run a poll on this. See what the American people have to say.

 

[Yankee23Fan]

One Fish Two Fish Red Fish Blue fish is more important to American history than Marbury v. Madison and the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace.

I'm floored I am, floored I say, that someone can think something so ridiculous this day.

I suggest you run a poll on this. See what the American people have to say.

The people that made Kim Kardashian rich? I'll pass.

 

[Sweet J]

One Fish Two Fish Red Fish Blue fish is more important to American history than Marbury v. Madison and the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace.

I'm floored I am, floored I say, that someone can think something so ridiculous this day.

I suggest you run a poll on this. See what the American people have to say.

The people that made Kim Kardashian rich? I'll pass.

 

[Sweet J]

Wait, I'm starting to just wrap my mind around this flustercuck.

You have Stonewall Jackson ahead of Andrew Carnegie? Are you mother ******* insane? Forget John Marshall for a second because I'm not a huge fan anyway, but ahead of Andrew Carnegie? That Andrew Carnegie. Not some some guy you bumped into on the street who was trying to buy a commercial building to sell pagers a few weeks ago.

This list can't be real. It just can't. I'm treating it like a fishing expedition from this point on. I can't wait until John Wilkes Boothe gets named in the mid teens.

You will be ok. He'll name Ronald Reagan at 64 and all will be forgiven.

. . . . . Until he names William Jefferson Clinton at 58, and we find pieces of YankeeFan brain scattered across the Jersey Turnpike.

 

[Yankee23Fan]

tim I figured it out. You're a sly dog. I give you credit. Using us here as a sounding board to slowly introduce what you are really doing. I admire your courage and the long con feel that it has now.

Let me guess, you were showing a building to someone about a month ago who happened to tell you that he is an aspiring director. You guys got to talking and realized that between you you both thought that a great idea for a movie would be a prequel to Idiocracy. And this list is your outline for the ultimate script. I admire it. Showing how people truly began ignoring important issues and forgetting history and focusing on whatever TV told them. It's truly remarkable.

Who are you leaning towards on casting? I'm thinking the lead is a real estate developer in California that mourns the loss of important discussions as he sees his country changing, but he's recently divorced and dating a 20-something airhead that thinks Facebook is the new Encyclopedia Britanica. Ben Affleck and Anna Farris? Did I let the cat out of the bag?

 

[jwb]

This reminds me of history class where the teacher is talking about the Missouri Compromise and the football team is all "when are we gonna get to some battles?"

I like Stonewall there, fwiw. Fascinating guy, and very important to a large part of the country.

 

[Yankee23Fan]

William Howard Taft (1909-1913)

Public Acumen/Persuasion

How do you follow a legend? John Adams couldn’t. Andrew Johnson couldn’t. Could Taft? It continues to be an interesting question. To start though, you have to accept that Taft didn’t get himself elected. Roosevelt did. The most important person in Taft’s election was Teddy, not Taft himself. He didn’t use the media the way Teddy did and could and almost immediately upon taking office it was assumed that he was nothing more than Roosevelt’s puppet. Which he was. For awhile. And then he fractured the party, broke with Roosevelt, and ultimately lost the White House to Woodrow Wilson and the democrats which was pretty remarkably bad from a political sense. In the end, Taft was more concerned with law than politics and truly only ever really wanted to be the Chief Justice of the Supreme Court.

War & Crisis

Taft brought more antitrust cases while President in 4 years than Roosevelt did in 8. He focused his foreign policy on trade and commerce, not military strength and backed down the only time he ever really threatened to use the military. All in all in the only true crisis Taft faced was with his own party. The alliance he had with Roosevelt soured over Taft’s dismissal of one of Roosevelt’s closest friends, Taft’s growing support of big business even though he was pressing more antitrust legislation, and eventually it came to a head and Roosevelt broke from Taft for good. It splintered the republican party and the Democrats took the House in the midterms for the first time in almost 20 years.

The fracture got worse as the 1913 election was coming due. Roosevelt made it clear he was going to run for President again and fought Taft for the nomination. By then Teddy was too progressive for the entirety of his party and the fight broke the party in half. Taft got the nomination but Roosevelt and his supporters broke and ran for office themselves. The split gave Woodrow Wilson the White House and Taft suffered one of the worst defeats of a sitting president in electoral history.

Economy

Taft did more trust busting than Teddy. He formed the American Chamber of Commerce to work with the new economy that the 20th century was creating. On federal spending Taft is the President that changed the office of President. Before Taft, federal offices would simply submit their budgets to the Treasury and Congress would eventually sign off. Taft demanded that all departments submit their budgets to the cabinet first, and then the cabinet introduced them, with him at the lead. The result was a shift in presidential budget power that we still have today, and it reduced federal spending drastically cutting out a lot of waste.

He also proposed and got passed the first true corporate income tax in the country. On the heels of that change to the national economy, Taft supported a constitutional amendment to change the taxing power of the federal government. He fought for, and eventually got passed, the 16th Amendment to the Constitution creating the national income tax. (I’m allowed to give him a 1 for that, right? Right!?! Meh, wait until I get to Congress and the next Amendment).

Foreign Policy

Taft is known for his “Dollar Diplomacy” in foreign affairs. Focused on increasing trade everywhere, he used foreign loans to developing countries in order to invade their markets for American benefit. His primary focus was latin America and his plans ultimately resulted in a growing hatred for American economic invasion of those countries.

Executive Skills/Congress

Taft got most of his legislative plans through congress, but he fractured his party two years into office. He was more judge than executive as well. Still, his change to the budget is imminently important for the power of the office. He gets a fair grade here but losing the House in the midterms made it difficult for him to get much else done. His glaring mistake that I can’t hit him too hard for because history isn’t with me yet is that he championed the 17th Amendment. Colossal awful problem there. To me. And it should be to most. But it’s not.

Justice/Rights

Taft wasn’t much different than Roosevelt in civil rights for blacks. His labor policies were similar as well. He ultimate did little for blacks, publically speaking on the topic rarely and when he did he tried to focus them on ignoring politics and focusing on education so that they could rise to the level of the white society. Not exactly Cosby Show worthy support there.

Context

Taft probably would win a second term if he kept close to Roosevelt but in that the only reason he was President was because of Roosevelt. And when he tried to do what he thought was right while President, he fractured his party. But he kept on the progressive reforms of Roosevelt and fought for laws and bills that opened up commerce to more people. Not being a good politician by trade he wasn’t able to build on Roosevelt’s harmony with the press and as a result, he couldn’t do it with the American public as well.

He also was the President that gave us the 16th and 17th Amendments to the Constitution. Both are massively important changes to the very nature of the federal government and the overall polity in general. The change in power that the 16th gave Washington is still felt today. The lack of federalism in the 17th is as well. But at the time they were seen as progressive fixes to a system that would ultimately result in more democrat policies and principles. Being sandwiched between Theodore Roosevelt and Woodrow Wilson, however, usually results in Taft’s presidency being just an afterthought. He was a solid guy – just more built for the Supreme Court (which he ultimate got) then the office of President.

Conclusion

Taft was solid if unspectacular. On persuasion he gets a 4, on crisis he gets a 4, economy 6, foreign policy 6, Congress 6, civil rights 4, and context 5. 35 total points. Taft’s ultimate lasting legacy apart from my personal hatred of his two amendments, lies in nothing he did as President. Years later, while on the bench, he finally convinced Congress that the Supreme Court should have its own building. It still stands today. A testament to the man that was better served being a judge than a president.

 

[larch]

Must be John Wayne then.

I'm impressed. Did you look it up or did you already know?Care to guess who the other famous Trojan is?

George Lucus

Good guess! But no.

If you picked Sam Donaldson over George Lucas, you need to be beaten.

Guarantee you won't have a problem with the person I chose. But you'll have to wait a while.

Stormin Norman in that case. A bit surprise by the pick, but can't argue with him as a great American.

No that's not it. I think my question to you was unfair, because the person I'm thinking of attended USC graduate school. He attended Purdue as an undergraduate.And that's the last clue I'm giving. If you know who it is, please don't reveal it here.

Neil Armstrong

 

[timschochet]

Nice. What part of don't reveal did you misunderstand?

 

[larch]

Nice. What part of don't reveal did you misunderstand?

I am not jon_mx.

 

[timschochet]

Nice. What part of don't reveal did you misunderstand?

I am not jon_mx.

I see. So you thought when I wrote that, I was only referring to him, but that anyone else could reveal it? Makes sense.

 

[larch]

Nice. What part of don't reveal did you misunderstand?

I am not jon_mx.

I see. So you thought when I wrote that, I was only referring to him, but that anyone else could reveal it? Makes sense.

That was a conversation between you two.

 

[Don Quixote]

Is revealing that the first person to walk on the moon will be on a list of the 100 Greatest Americans that big of a deal?

 

[larch]

Is revealing that the first person to walk on the moon will be on a list of the 100 Greatest Americans that big of a deal?

Apparently to tim it is.

 

[timschochet]

Is revealing that the first person to walk on the moon will be on a list of the 100 Greatest Americans that big of a deal?

Nah. I was just trying to see how many people knew the Purdue/USC thing without having to look it up.

 

[Don Quixote]

Is revealing that the first person to walk on the moon will be on a list of the 100 Greatest Americans that big of a deal?

Nah. I was just trying to see how many people knew the Purdue/USC thing without having to look it up.

Ok, gotcha. Thought you were concerned about list spoilers.

 

[timschochet]

79. Winfield Scott

The enemy say that Americans are good at the long shot, but cannot stand cold iron. I call upon you to give lie to this slander. Charge!!

Wow. Just as an aside, if I'm one of those soldiers, that doesn't exactly inspire me. In fact, I'm running the other way. But then, I'm a coward.

"Old Fuss and Feathers" is largely forgotten- when Americans speak reverently about their military heroes, others will come to mind, a few of which will make this list. But historians largely consider Scott to be a military genius, and perhaps the greatest of the entire lot. He served a long time, commanding forces in the War of 1812, the Black Hawk War, and the Second Seminole War, as well as the American Civil War, which we'll get to shortly.

But it was his performance in the Mexican-American War that receives the most outstanding praise from the experts. He won 6 major engagements, all against larger forces in a commanding defensive position: the seizure of Veracruz, the battles of Cerro Gordo, Contreras, Churubusco, Molina Del Rey, and the capture of the fortress at Chapultepac, after which Mexico City surrendered to American forces. Scott did this while dealing with difficult terrain and bad weather conditions. After Mexico City fell, the Duke of Wellington proclaimed Scott to be the "greatest general alive."

Scott, famous after Mexico, aspired to be President, but to his chagrin the nation elected one of his subordinates, Zachary Taylor. Scott stayed in charge of the army. In 1861, when his home state of Virginia seceded from the Union, Scott elected to stay in Washington and support Lincoln's government. It was this decision that has allowed certain anti-Confederacy types to condemn Robert E. Lee, Stonewall Jackson, and other Virginians as traitors. However, Scott never believed so.

Old, greatly overweight and corpulent, Scott was immediately despised by the young dashing George McClellan, and the latter managed to get him removed from decision-making. Yet it was Scott's "Anaconda Plan" which eventually won the war for the Union, more than all of the battles on the field: Scott believed, correctly, that the fastest way to Union victory would be to starve the South into submission. Though at the time people believed that Scott was trying to be humane towards the South and avoid unnecessary death, the plan was actually quite cold-blooded. as whole sections of the southern states suffered tremendous famines. But it worked.

Scott served under 14 Presidents from Jefferson to Lincoln- a total of 53 years as a US officer.! Something I did not know until today: Judge Sandra Day O' Connor is a direct descendant.

Up next: She wrote 30 books over her lifetime, one of which changed American history...

 

[Yankee23Fan]

Woodrow Wilson (1913-1921)

Public Acumen/Persuasion

With McKinley beginning the 20th century, Roosevelt exploded the country into the new ear and Taft kept it moving forward. The Office of President of the United States was going through a fundamental change at the same time. When Andrew Johnson destroyed the office’s power with Congress, future President’s tried to gain some of that power back. McKinley did, Roosevelt towered over them and Taft maintained a rough status quo until his break with his own party. Woodrow Wilson took the lessons of those men, and completely and fundamentally altered the office and with it the power structure he created continues to this day.

Immediately upon entering office, Woodrow Wilson called a joint session of Congress on tariff reform and became the first President since John Adams to address Congress directly. The act made the public see the President as the leader of the government, something Wilson was hellbent on doing. He was the first President to hold regular press conferences and began again to deliver the State of Union in person, something not done since Thomas Jefferson. I don’t think you can give Wilson a perfect 10 here (and we haven’t even gotten to the World War) but he certainly gets high grades.

War & Crisis

Wilson entered office with a massive legislative agenda with reforms all over the place. He was successful for most of his first term. But the growing war in Europe eventually was what took over his time.

Before World War though he had to deal with the Mexican Revolution. When the government fell Wilson pulled all American support from the nation. Foreign nations supported his efforts, to only see him backtrack and allow arms shipments into the nation that supported the dictatorial regime. Wilson’s international standing took a massive hit that he needed to recover.

Germany’s constant attacks on ships in the Atlantic and their growing submarine power resulted in the loss of American citizens. The cry at home was for war. Wilson worked tirelessly to keep America out of the war – at least in public. There are books a-thousand that say he knew exactly what he was doing and did everything possible to get America into the war with his relations with England, Germany and shipping supplies to the allies. Whatever the truth is there, the end result of Germany continuing to kill American citizens reached a boiling point. The German ambassador informed Wilson’s cabinet that Germany would be using unrestricted submarine warfare knowing that it would force America to go to war. Wilson’s initial reaction was not war however. But days later, communications from Germany were intercepted that showed Germany was trying to get Mexico to join them and if they did Germany was promising to help Mexico get Texas and the southwestern United States back. It was all too much. Teddy Roosevelt threatened to kill Woodrow Wilson if he didn’t declare war, which Wilson asked Congress to do days later.

Within a year of America entering the war and sending almost a million soldiers to the western front, Germany was unable to continue the war. Peace negotiations began and Wilson strongly pushed once again for his League of Nations and the unconditional surrender of Germany. His work in finally getting the ultimate Treaty of Versailles that ended the war resolute in him being awarded the Nobel Peace Prize. The Treaty ended the war but all it really did in the end was start World War II. Meanwhile, Wilson got his League of Nations in that treat and fought for it at home. Congress was having none of it.

Towards the end of his second term during the fights over the League Wilson suffered a stroke and his personal power was gone, unable to fight for what he wanted. Americans and Congress did not support the treaty or the League of Nations. Wilson’s tireless work for some kind of international peace would not be ratified by his own country.

Economy

Wilson entered office with a sweeping new economic agenda. He forced tariff changes through Congress and a massive overhaul to the national banking system that became the Federal Reserve. Instead of using the courts to reform business practices he pushed for a got the formation of the Federal Trade Commission. He managed to mobilize the economy for war and then when the war was over he demobilized it. With it all happening the span of two years, the economy fell flat by the end of his second term. Democrats lost Congress in those midterms and republicans weren’t about let Wilson do anything else to the economy that the disagreed with.

Foreign Policy

World War gives him a solid grade. His work in Mexico does not. His imperialist actions in latin America are mixed at best. And while in Europe he was seen as a peacemaker, at home he failed to get the support for his ultimate foreign policy.

Executive Skills/Congress

Wilson is the father of the Office of President that we have now. His work with Congress made the President the leader of the nation and all future president’s work within the sphere of power that he ultimately created. He pushed a massive legislative agenda through Congress. But he ultimately lost the Congress and failed in his greatest work at home with the Treaty of Versailles and League of Nations. He can’t get a perfect score here but he’s close.

Justice/Rights

Wilson allowed the segregation of federal offices. A southerner by birth, he was as much a racist as you would expect. In an effort to make sure the public backed World War I he created the Committee on Public Information which was, at best, used to discredit anyone that stood against the war. Anti German sentiment in the country grew as well. He sponsored the Espionage and Sedition Acts to imprison people who got in the way of the war effort, severely targeting civil liberties. The Post Office was empowered to censor the mail. And Union leaders were attacked by federal agents. The quick paragraph here doesn’t do this justice though. It was a true black mark on American civil liberties.

Finally, he supported woman’s suffrage on the state level, but not the federal level. He worked with moderate woman’s leaders as best as possible until he was sure that the Democratic Party supported the measure. When he finally was convinced they did he personally spoke to the House of Representatives to support the measure. It ultimately passed and women were given the right to vote. It’s unclear if this amendment is worse than the 16th or 17th. Everyone knows the 18th was stupid, and it was a cause led by women – their reward was the 19th. We did something wrong. I digress.

Context

Wilson changed the office forever. He used the passions of the people against them with World War I. He fought diligently for world peace in Europe knowing that if there was a good peace that another war wasn’t far behind. He weakened civil liberties during a war and did nothing for the civil rights of blacks. Still, his legacy is a strong one and he led the nation well in difficult times, reformed the government and the office and mobilized the nation for all out war for the first time since the Civil War.

Conclusion

Wilson is going to get a 9 for persuasion, an 8 for crisis, a 8 for economy, 8 for foreign affairs, 8 for Congress, 3 for civil rights and 8 for context. 52 total points. Wilson has a strong legacy for the office and the nation. His civil rights record is questionable at best, but you can at least give it some credence in a time of war and his ultimate support of women’s voting rights. His change to the office cannot be underestimated though. All President’s since can see the power in their office in how Wilson changed it. A guy named Franklin Roosevelt took Wilson’s lessons to heart and lead the world.

 

[timschochet]

8 for Congress???

OK, that's total BS. Woodrow Wilson had total contempt for Congress, which is why the Treaty of Versailles was not ratified and we failed to join the League of Nations. The only guy who comes close to Wilson's hubris is our current occupant, but Obama has figured a way to get his deal through by sneakily not calling it a treaty, thus avoiding having to obtain 2/3rds. Wilson wasn't that smart. He was arrogant beyond belief, and the nation suffered for it.

You give him a 3 for Civil Rights and claim his record was "questionable". It wasn't questionable at all. It was putrid. Beyond his shameful treatment of African-Americans (worst in American history post the Civil War, and perhaps for all time), you failed to mention his completely illegal imprisonment of Eugene Debs and other pacifist leaders.

9 for foreign affairs??? This may be the worst of all. Wilson was completely incompetent here, both in his dealings with Latin America, (particularly Mexico which has cost us over the years), his naive push for democracy around the world (which ultimately served to destroy the British Empire, our biggest ally, and creating the mess that is today's Middle East), and his allowing Lloyd George and Clemenceau to walk all over him and demand punitive terms against Germany, which basically created Adolf Hitler. As far as I am concerned, we have never had a more disastrous foreign policy President, and that includes the dreadful Jimmy Carter and George W. Bush. A 9?? And you think some of my rankings are absurd. Un####ingbelievable.

 

[Yankee23Fan]

 

[Sweet J]

Is revealing that the first person to walk on the moon will be on a list of the 100 Greatest Americans that big of a deal?

Apparently to tim it is.

For the record, his inclusion surprises me. I sure hope he did something other than have that one event.

 

[Yankee23Fan]

You aren't going to believe me but I was literally typing those numbers trying to figure out which ones would annoy you the most.

 

[timschochet]

You aren't going to believe me but I was literally typing those numbers trying to figure out which ones would annoy you the most.

 

[timschochet]

Is revealing that the first person to walk on the moon will be on a list of the 100 Greatest Americans that big of a deal?

Apparently to tim it is.

For the record, his inclusion surprises me. I sure hope he did something other than have that one event.

Really? We'll get to him later (MUCH LATER) but that one event is one pretty damn big event IMO- if it really happened, that is.

 

[Yankee23Fan]

8 for Congress???

OK, that's total BS. Woodrow Wilson had total contempt for Congress, which is why the Treaty of Versailles was not ratified and we failed to join the League of Nations. The only guy who comes close to Wilson's hubris is our current occupant, but Obama has figured a way to get his deal through by sneakily not calling it a treaty, thus avoiding having to obtain 2/3rds. Wilson wasn't that smart. He was arrogant beyond belief, and the nation suffered for it.

You give him a 3 for Civil Rights and claim his record was "questionable". It wasn't questionable at all. It was putrid. Beyond his shameful treatment of African-Americans (worst in American history post the Civil War, and perhaps for all time), you failed to mention his completely illegal imprisonment of Eugene Debs and other pacifist leaders.

9 for foreign affairs??? This may be the worst of all. Wilson was completely incompetent here, both in his dealings with Latin America, (particularly Mexico which has cost us over the years), his naive push for democracy around the world (which ultimately served to destroy the British Empire, our biggest ally, and creating the mess that is today's Middle East), and his allowing Lloyd George and Clemenceau to walk all over him and demand punitive terms against Germany, which basically created Adolf Hitler. As far as I am concerned, we have never had a more disastrous foreign policy President, and that includes the dreadful Jimmy Carter and George W. Bush. A 9?? And you think some of my rankings are absurd. Un####ingbelievable.

The Congress category includes skill as the Executive. Wilson gets a 10 if you remove Congress from the equation completely.

I gave him a 3 for civil rights mainly because giving him a 1 was too unfair. Women's lib counts for something.

His foreign policy was fine. And it was 8, not 9. He handled World War I about as well as anyone could, but he does get a hit for Mexico. And if you want to be fair to him, while he didn't want the Treaty of Versaillles to be as punitive as it ultimately was, he hoped that the League of Nations would stall whatever its ill effects were. Calling his foreign policy the worst in history is simply wrong.

 

[Coeur de Lion]

Tim's assessment on Wilson is FAR more outrageous than Yankee's. Pretty much every academic list has Wilson as a solid 2nd tier President. He's much closer to the greats than the guys at the bottom of the list by any measure.

 

[timschochet]

Tim's assessment on Wilson is FAR more outrageous than Yankee's. Pretty much every academic list has Wilson as a solid 2nd tier President. He's much closer to the greats than the guys at the bottom of the list by any measure.

Well, they're all wrong, and I'm right. This guy is by far our most overrated President, and a true embarrassment to this country.

 

[Sweet J]

Is revealing that the first person to walk on the moon will be on a list of the 100 Greatest Americans that big of a deal?

Apparently to tim it is.

For the record, his inclusion surprises me. I sure hope he did something other than have that one event.

Really? We'll get to him later (MUCH LATER) but that one event is one pretty damn big event IMO- if it really happened, that is.

Think of this like MVP voting, Tim. Someone can't be THE MOST IMPORTANT AMERICAN (or the MVP of whatever), if you can swap that person for a random guy in that person's chosen profession and that random guy does an adequately similar job that the MVP/Most important person did.

You switch out George Washington for one of the other random generals or military leaders of his time. Would the have gone on to be the president and leader that he was, and make the decisions he made?

Would a random preacher/pastor have been able to galvanize a country like MLK?

Who else would have had the balls, the brains and the intestinal fortitude to do what Lincoln did, what Teddy Roosevelt did? Jefferson?

How many other random inventors had a body of work like Edison. Hell, even Ben Franklin in the inventor category was close to irreplaceable (you add in the Statesman, diplomacy, political work he did, and he was peerless).

Contrast that with whether or not one of a DOZEN other random astronauts could have done the same thing at Armstrong? What did HE do SPECIFICALLY that sets him apart from his peers? I dunno, maybe there was something special about him. Maybe you will tell us. But no, just being "Part of some historic event," alone, should not qualify him. Was he the guy who made moon travel possible? (Put THAT guy on the list). Or was he just a guy with above-average courage and training who was given a job a whole bunch of other people could have done just as well?

 

[Sweet J]

Besides, everyone damn well knows he was an Allah-loving Muslim after he moved to Lebanon to be with his fellow Commie-Muslims. That alone should disqualify him.

 

[Arodin]

Well, they're all wrong, and I'm right. This guy is by far our most overrated President, and a true embarrassment to this country.

That's a bold statement when John F. Kennedy is still treated as royalty by a majority of Americans.

I can see a debate between which (Wilson or Kennedy) was the better President, but Kennedy's idolization pretty much crushes the overrated category.

(Washington by rights should score high in an "overrated" category...except that he was such a remarkable President it may not be possible to overrate him. Even if we admit the cherry tree.)

 

[Arodin]

Think of this like MVP voting, Tim. Someone can't be THE MOST IMPORTANT AMERICAN (or the MVP of whatever), if you can swap that person for a random guy in that person's chosen profession and that random guy does an adequately similar job that the MVP/Most important person did.

You switch out George Washington for one of the other random generals or military leaders of his time. Would the have gone on to be the president and leader that he was, and make the decisions he made?

Would a random preacher/pastor have been able to galvanize a country like MLK?

Who else would have had the balls, the brains and the intestinal fortitude to do what Lincoln did, what Teddy Roosevelt did? Jefferson?

How many other random inventors had a body of work like Edison. Hell, even Ben Franklin in the inventor category was close to irreplaceable (you add in the Statesman, diplomacy, political work he did, and he was peerless).

Contrast that with whether or not one of a DOZEN other random astronauts could have done the same thing at Armstrong? What did HE do SPECIFICALLY that sets him apart from his peers? I dunno, maybe there was something special about him. Maybe you will tell us. But no, just being "Part of some historic event," alone, should not qualify him. Was he the guy who made moon travel possible? (Put THAT guy on the list). Or was he just a guy with above-average courage and training who was given a job a whole bunch of other people could have done just as well?

I like your take on "greatest." You've pretty well nailed what makes someone remarkable for their place in history.

"Landing a man on the moon" should do extremely well in the "Top 100 Human Achievements" list. But it was an accomplishment that resulted from hundreds (thousands?) of remarkable people contributing in a wide range of ways. Of which the "spam in a can" might be amongst the lesser, if clearly most visible elements.

A similar critique can be leveled against about half of the people on Tim's list thus far. What we're learning (again) is that Tim's idea of greatness is far from mainstream. "Top 100 People That Tim Considers Interesting?"

 

[Bottomfeeder Sports]

I can see a debate between which (Wilson or Kennedy) was the better President, but Kennedy's idolization pretty much crushes the overrated category.

Maybe, if not for that 666 guy in the '80s. Ronnie something or the other.

 

[jon_mx]

I can see a debate between which (Wilson or Kennedy) was the better President, but Kennedy's idolization pretty much crushes the overrated category.

Maybe, if not for that 666 guy in the '80s. Ronnie something or the other.

Why do you hate charismatic presidents who cut obscenely high tax rates, fought communism, gave historically great speeches, jump started faultering economies, and made Americans feel great about themselves?

 

[Bottomfeeder Sports]

I can see a debate between which (Wilson or Kennedy) was the better President, but Kennedy's idolization pretty much crushes the overrated category.

Maybe, if not for that 666 guy in the '80s. Ronnie something or the other.

Why do you hate charismatic presidents who cut obscenely high tax rates, fought communism, gave historically great speeches, jump started faultering economies, and made Americans feel great about themselves?

Hate?

ETA: Who hates nonsensical mythology?

 

[jon_mx]

I can see a debate between which (Wilson or Kennedy) was the better President, but Kennedy's idolization pretty much crushes the overrated category.

Maybe, if not for that 666 guy in the '80s. Ronnie something or the other.

Why do you hate charismatic presidents who cut obscenely high tax rates, fought communism, gave historically great speeches, jump started faultering economies, and made Americans feel great about themselves?

Hate?

The hate part was the ole 'why do you hate America' shtick, but there seems to be something in common about those two that makes you lack appreciation for them.

 

[Bottomfeeder Sports]

I can see a debate between which (Wilson or Kennedy) was the better President, but Kennedy's idolization pretty much crushes the overrated category.

Maybe, if not for that 666 guy in the '80s. Ronnie something or the other.

Why do you hate charismatic presidents who cut obscenely high tax rates, fought communism, gave historically great speeches, jump started faultering economies, and made Americans feel great about themselves?

Hate?

The hate part was the ole 'why do you hate America' shtick, but there seems to be something in common about those two that makes you lack appreciation for them.

Those "two"?

 

[Arodin]

I can see a debate between which (Wilson or Kennedy) was the better President, but Kennedy's idolization pretty much crushes the overrated category.

Maybe, if not for that 666 guy in the '80s. Ronnie something or the other.

You make my point with the "666" crack. Reagan's idolization by half the electorate is mirrored by his villainization by the other half.

I don't see a lot of people vilifying Kennedy.

 

[Bottomfeeder Sports]

I can see a debate between which (Wilson or Kennedy) was the better President, but Kennedy's idolization pretty much crushes the overrated category.

Maybe, if not for that 666 guy in the '80s. Ronnie something or the other.

You make my point with the "666" crack. Reagan's idolization by half the electorate is mirrored by his villainization by the other half.

I don't see a lot of people vilifying Kennedy.

Villainization?

 

[Arodin]

I can see a debate between which (Wilson or Kennedy) was the better President, but Kennedy's idolization pretty much crushes the overrated category.

Maybe, if not for that 666 guy in the '80s. Ronnie something or the other.

You make my point with the "666" crack. Reagan's idolization by half the electorate is mirrored by his villainization by the other half.

I don't see a lot of people vilifying Kennedy.

Villainization?

Nounvillainization ‎(countable and uncountable, plural villainizations)

1. The process of making somebody into a villain.

Yes, I think there's been a tendency on the part of many to try to vilify Reagan and diminish his accomplishments. For one thing, it's still "too close" for levelheaded historical judgment, and he's still the most recent "successful" Republican, so he draws more partisan rhetoric than Kennedy, who has Clinton and now Obama to buffer him.

But fact remains, you can find as many Reagan detractors who want to play up the scandals and mock his policies as you can find people idolizing him as an elite President.