timschochet's thread- Mods, please move this thread to the Politics Subforum, thank you (2 Viewers)

[Yankee23Fan]

George W. Bush (2001-2009)

Public Acumen/Persuasion

The closest most turbulent election in our history and the perception of being a guy on vacation all the time born with a silver spoon in his mouth who benefited from a Supreme Court decision to steal an election from chad-counters was the story of Bush for about 9 months. Had that been the overall end to the story he gets a 2. But then the world stopped turning and in the aftermath and for months after, George W. Bush stood as a towering figure of power, strength, courage, and American exceptionalism that you are hard pressed to find in any President ever. If that had been the whole story, he would vault himself into a 10 here. His visit to the wreckage of the World Trade Center towers with a fireman by his side and bullhorn in his hand is a great moment. His first pitch in the 2001 World Series in game 3 in New York is one of the more iconic, cool and downright emotionally powerful moments in any presidential era. Each of those moments would get top scores as well if they told the whole story.

But it’s not the whole story. The whole story is so much more complicated than that. Two close elections, a seemingly never ending international war against a faceless enemy that brings out the worst in everyone, a seemingly failed foreign policy that destroyed his standing in his own country and led to some of the worst approval ratings in history, and the collapse of the American economy are all focal points for the eight years that George Bush was President. Growing political discontent with the opposition, never shaking the story that he was inept or being controlled by others, and the several verbal miscues that paint a picture more Dan Quayle than Franklin Roosevelt, all color the historical story of Bush as a leader. I struggled this is score here more than any other in the entirety of this exercise.

War & Crisis

9/11, Iraq, Afghanistan and the economic collapse are the stories here. And we know the stories and their effects and legacy are still being written. In the initial aftermath of the attacks on the United States by terrorists, Bush’s response and leadership to the American people when everyone was worried that another building was going to blow up was exceptional. Taking that power that saw approval ratings in the 90% range, he addressed the nation and declared war on terrorism and the states that sponsor it. The next steps of Congressional law writing and the attack on civil liberties began to chisel away at the tower. By the invasion of Iraq and the calamity that it was and has resulted in, the tower was in as much rubble as the towers. A better President would have used that power better if for nothing else to explain better to the American people what his plan was and what the steps were. Declaring a mission accomplished when it was anything but, even if an innocuous statement, was destructive of a historical legacy.

The invasion of Afghanistan was necessary. It was ultimately more necessary than the invasion of Iraq. And it has bogged America down almost no different than the Soviet Union was 30 years prior. Meanwhile, while the initial military action in Iraq was a success, the vacuum of power and the inability to understand the cultural differences in that region have lead to now over a decade of problems and more violence.

And the economic collapse of 2007-2008 doesn’t help and only makes it all worse. Focusing on terrorism as he should have, Bush ignored the calls for more work with Freddie Mac and Fannie Mae as they were slowly imploding. He should have led that fight more when he tasked his administration to fix that problem in 2003 but he didn’t. And his ignoring of the problem led to awful results. As the economy imploded there are those that would tell you that the entire world economy was going to collapse with it and there was a very real threat of something worse than the Great Depression destroying the economy of the planet. In response to the problem, Bush infused a fortune into the economy to try to stabilize the problem. The long term effects of that are both good in the sense that the world didn’t collapse and still unknown because we are still in the midst of those effects.

Bush faced these crisis all at relatively the same time, something that only FDR had to deal with. Bush will never rise to the historical level of legacy that FDR has.

Economy

When you enter office with Clinton’s economy and everything seemingly booming and you leave office shortly after the worst economic problem in the nation since 1929 you can’t get good grades here. History is going to have to further judge if Bush’s ultimate responses were good or bad, but the fact remains that Bush should have worked more on the problem that he saw in 2003.

Foreign Policy

Since terrorism, Iraq and Afghanistan dominate the topic for Bush, we can see the current status of those policies. There was not another attack on American the likes of which we all thought and feared was going to happen. Iraq is a mess and Afghanistan seems to be one of those places that will always be a mess. The international support that the world gave Bush in 2001 was all but gone by 2006. But Bush manages to defend himself against the criticism enough to win re-election. The invasion of Iraq and the ultimate result there will be the defining legacy of George Bush though. And right now it’s a mess.

Executive Skills/Congress

You can’t say that he didn’t accomplish a lot in eight years. You can certainly disagree with what he did policy wise though because there is a lot to deal with. Cutting taxes, No Child Left Behind, the PATRIOT Act, MediCare, numerous military engagements and so on, there is a ton of stuff that Bush got through Congress. The GOP seemed to have the need to support him more and more in the growing attacks by Democrats who hit him constantly and it created more and more problems politically, publically and with Congress. He wasn’t impeached. So that’s something.

Justice/Rights

The USAPATRIOT Act is in many ways not really that big of a deal. All it really is, is a codification of a ton of laws, policies and practices already on the books and an effort to merge a ton of actions being done by numerous actors. In practice though, it is a civil rights nightmare that has exploded into wire tapping issues, warrantless searches, database mining of biblical proportions and slew of governmental powers that would make even the most agnostic civil libertarian blush. Thomas Jefferson decried taxes on tobacco and alcohol and intrusive federal power. George Bush left us with drones. The times they are a changing.

Context

Perhaps more than any other President, the times will define Bush much more than Bush defining the times. And in the beginning of this the rankings would reward the President’s that could define their times. With that, Bush will not get a great overall score and probably never will. But on the heals of hell of earth, Bush was a great leader. For a time. In the midst of war, he seems to have stayed the course in the midst of growing resentment and attacks from all sides. In what you can certainly say is a new era of war and danger he stood up to it forcefully and attacked what he perceived as the problem. We’ll know in the decades to follow if his actions truly did anything ultimately good or bad.

Conclusion

Bush isn’t the worst President we’ve ever had. The people that would argue it are wrong. He certainly isn’t the best, though few if any would argue that. On persuasion he gets a 5, on crisis he gets a 7, on economy he gets a 2, foreign policy 4, congress 7, civil rights 3, context 6. 34 total points. But it’s open to interpretation and change for the better part of the next quarter century or more. The evil of terrorism in the world requires a completely new fundamental understanding of its origins and strengths, and it isn’t simply the old style grudges of a cold war or colonial wars. There is something far more deep rooted in the problem that Bush certainly didn’t solve, and Obama hasn’t either. We might do it someday. And maybe someday Bush will be seen as a President who started a global shift in how it dealt with stateless agents of war and their state supporters. Or not. Maybe the true nature of the reasons for the economic collapse will be seen as something out of his control, much like Hoover’s story seems to be written now, or not. Maybe the middle east gets so much worse in the future that historians years from now can connect future attacks and horrible to Bush’s invasion of Iraq. Or not. It’s still a story that hasn’t been fully written.

But you have to admit that no matter what, that was one hell of a pitch.

 

[Yankee23Fan]

My next pick for greatest American, as per my clue, is a guy born in China and who was arguably one of the 3-4 most influential Americans of the 20th century. I think that's a pretty good trivia question. Any guesses?

Jackie Chan?

Is he American?

He plays a kick butt cop in a few movies. That is more American than apple pie.

 

[Yankee23Fan]

Barack Obama (2009-present)

Public Acumen/Persuasion

You know, for all the talk about how we don’t have great President’s anymore, the fact is that from 1980, at least for this type of leadership, we had Reagan, Clinton, Bush for a few months and then Obama. The power of the office of the President has certainly changed over time and the guys in the office in today’s era of instant communication have a much harder job than the guys that served when horses delivered the mail. But these guys have also been pretty darn good at this part of the job.

And Obama is really no different. He gets exceptional grades here. Even the most bloody critic of our President has to admit that his ability to talk to the American people was the highest of highs for much of his time in office, and now, today, as we are nearing his end of service, if he has taken a hit, it doesn’t detract from his perfect score.

War & Crisis

Beyond the above though it’s close to impossible to grade Obama in any category. For all we know he could destroy his legacy in the coming months. And of course the story of the aftermath of his actions still has to be written. But, he got Osama. He got passed a massive economic package to continue to fight the economic collapse of the previous administration. Coming off of Bush’s final surge in Iraq, Obama was able to reduce American military involvement. He focused more attention on Afghanistan and has worked towards the end of combat troops there as well. With history still to be written, Obama has presided over a country that is trying to move forward from the events of 2001 and the wars of the previous administration. Time will tell.

Economy

The economy stabilized soon after his first massive injection into it and has been humming pretty smoothly since. It’s not perfect but it isn’t sky is falling. It’s certainly better now than it was when he took office so in that with the scoring system here he gets high marks.

Foreign Policy

Decreasing American combat troops in Iraq and Afghanistan, he also signed the 2010 nuclear arms reduction treaty with Russia. Once he gets out of office we will be able to look back on the entirety of his policies here with a clearer eye. But it has been many more positives than negatives.

Executive Skills/Congress

After a massive economic stimulus, Obama got the ACA passed – the most sweeping change to the medical insurance industry since the New Deal. He also signed the Dodd-Frank Act and has gotten budget deals with Congress that hard right GOPers see as a surrender by the Speaker of the House – who is probably crying because I didn’t type his name. Obama has been doing a good job in this field as well.

Justice/Civil Rights

Going back and forth for political reasons, Obama was president when gay marriage was legalized by the Supreme Court. He attempted to start a new discussion on race but you are hard pressed to say that race relations are in a good state at the moment. But the election of a black man to this office can not go unscored here. It will forever alter the nature of the office and the aspirations of generations.

Context

The review here is quick because, let’s face it, we all know his story. It’s going to get longer and history is going to judge it for decades if not centuries. The political fracture of the extremes of the parties will continue to fight each other over his legacy; the accusations of racism for people that don’t like him will never go away. But Obama ushered in a new era in America with his election. It helps the context of his service time that the GOP has basically imploded on itself and has no clear leader, direction or course for the nation besides objections to this President. And that isn’t leadership.

Conclusion

There is no conclusion. But for now, his score is very good. On persuasion he gets a 10, on crisis he gets a 6, on economy he gets a 8, foreign policy 7, congress 6, civil rights 6 and context 6. 49 total points. It’s not fair to him nor any other person this list to grade him because the story is still imcomplete. Heck, by the time I post this and all the others guys above him, something could happen that moves him up or down. For now, though, Barack Obama is an effective President and should be seen as such. He isn’t the greatest ever nor should he be. But he already above average for what we seek in presidents.

 

[Yankee23Fan]

The final raw rankings for the exercise started weeks ago are in:

Lincoln 67

Washington 64

T. Roosevelt 60

F. Roosevelt 60

Monroe 59

Eisenhower 57

Reagan 56

Polk 55

McKinley 52

Wilson 52

Jefferson 50

Clinton 50

Adams 49

Obama 49

L. Johnson 48

Truman 46

Kennedy 45

HW Bush 45

Jackson 44

Grant 44

Madison 39

Cleveland 37

Nixon 37

Coolidge 36

Taft 35

W Bush 34

Carter 33

B. Harrison 32

Van Buren 29

Tyler 29

Hayes 28

Harding 28

Q. Adams 27

Hoover 26

Ford 25

Arthur 20

Taylor 19

Garfield 19

Fillmore 18

WH Harrison 12

Buchanan 11

Pierce 10

A. Johnson 8

 

[Sweet J]

Friggen Yankee, man. Just such solid work. Kudos.

 

[Yankee23Fan]

President Tier 1 - The Lowest of the Low

The bottom tier of Presidents in the rankings are those with an initial raw score of 7-14. We have four such men:

WH Harrison 12

Buchanan 11

Pierce 10

A. Johnson 8

Andrew Johnson wasn't an evil man. He was simply politically inept and a failure in almost everything he did as President. The failures he faced led to the beginning of a bad reconstruction plan following the Civil War that future Presidents had a difficult time managing. Though you can say that it was going to be a difficult process anyway. So before I mark his place down for sure, a review of the other guys here is warranted. William Henry Harrison was not a "bad" President in the sense that he is in the bottom tier for it. He is simply here because he has literally no record. He died too soon to ever be given a review in a list like this. So he will remain in the bottom tier by default, and not by action.

Which leaves us James Buchanan and Franklin Pierce. The eight years that they held the office consecutively are the worst eight years of Presidential time in our history. They are together truly awful Presidents. Franklin Pierce started the civil war. His policies and actions while President ensured it was going to happen and there was almost no way to stop it. His lack of leadership and political ability were anchors that dragged the country into a bloody war. Buchanan on the other hand was simply ignorant to the realities of his time. He lacked any decisive quality that would benefit a President and hoped that the actions of other would stave off the inevitable. And when he left office he became a traitor that should have been treated as such.

Johnson Buchanan and Pierce and the trio of bad that we have had in the office. The two President before the "Civil War" and the one after that took office when we lost our greatest President. If not for Abraham Lincoln, the story of America is far, far different. So in the final ranking, taking into account the raw score and then balancing these men against each other, I believe the following is more appropriate:

43 - Franklin Pierce

42 - Andrew Johnson

41 - James Buchanan

40 - William Henry Harrison

There is very little separation from Buchanan to Pierce. Putting the three of them in any order is perfectly acceptable provided that they are the bottom three. No other President's were nearly as bad as these three during their time in office. They were more than just failures. And because of that, they sit at the bottom.

 

[Yankee23Fan]

President Tier 2 - Not Awful, Just Not Good

The next tier of the raw rankings are the Presidents who weren't successful in office in enough areas to vault them into the higher ranks, together with a few default guys as well. With raw scores of 15-21, we again have four men:

Arthur 20

Taylor 19

Garfield 19

Fillmore 18

General Zachary Taylor may have been able to be a good to very good President. He certainly had the leadership qualities and the initial public support given his status from the military. But he had no political acumen and was a default nominee placed on the ballot by a party that was just looking to win no matter the name on the list. With almost no platofrm to run on, it was solely his name and rank that was used to win the day. Though it worked, and worked hard during his time in office, it was a short time. He does enjoy a foreign policy success that matters a lot, but his death so soon after taking the office simply makes it hard to move him into the next tier.

Millard Fillmore wasn't a President. He was and would have continued to be a very good political lieutenant - more back room than front and center. And because he lacked that quality and ability he allowed others to dominate his time in office and the policies that would be born during it. You can't be scored as a good leader when you simply weren't one. And Fillmore's failures allowed the Democratic Party to take the next election and install Franklin Pierce in office. Fillmore's legacy deserves to be hit for that simple fact.

James Garfield and Chester Arthur are more interesting guys. Garfield's raw score fell this far because of his untimely death, and Arthur came up right next to him because in succeeding him and failing to truly make a lasting mark on the office. But that is also a little unfair to Garfield specifically, but even to Arthur as well. Garfield would have been a very good President. His career arc and political ability show a man who should have been able to fall in the 40's in raw score at least. I don't think though that it is fair to the tier above him to bump him into it based solely on the small amount of time we had him in the office. Garfield was a reformer who had the ability and personal power to change what he saw as broken, he was masterful in his sole action towards the economy, and he played the politicians against themselves and won the only battle he fought before his death. Arthur meanwhile was more inclined to worry about the trappings of the office than the office itself. However, you must be fair to Arthur and give him credit for continuing Garfield's reformist streak and his ultimate signing of true civil service reform. Unlike Fillmore or Taylor he changed the government in an effective and basic way that began a language all Presidents after would use.

In balancing these men against each, and taking into account the raw score, I believe the proper ultimate ranking them is as follows:

39 - Millard Fillmore

38 - Zachary Taylor

37 - Chester Arthur

36 - James Garfield

By putting Garfield above Arthur I am using assumption more than product. But when you simply look at the two men - Garfield was more presidential than Arthur in almost every measureable, and his death shouldn't diminish that. The tragedy of this group is that Garfield and Taylor could have been so much more.

 

[Yankee23Fan]

Presidential Tier 3 - Approaching Average

The next tier sees raw scores of 22-28. We have here five men - but that isn't the whole story, because with raw scores at 29, just making the next tier, we also have John Tyler and Martin Van Buren. They will be a part of this tier's ultimate resolution. But for now, the five we have are:

Hayes 28

Harding 28

Q. Adams 27

Hoover 26

Ford 25

Gerald Ford is/was a good man. Thrust into a situation he certainly didn't choose, he ascended to the office under the most difficult times the office had faced in its history. And societal media and imagery defined him more than it should have because at that very worst time for the office he managed to push forward with a dignity and class that should be, and has been since, honored by our political class. If more men that held the office were like Gerald Ford, we would have a much stronger base of respect and trust in the office as a whole. But he wasn't able to take these deserved accolaides and turn them into his own election.

Meanwhile, like Ford, Herbert Hoover was an exceptional political figure in our history. Looking back on the depression now we know that there were many forces at work and not nearly all of it was Hoover's fault. Though, like George W. Bush close to a century later, he saw a problem but didn't tackle it hard enough either not understanding it or being naive to its ultimate destructive nature. Members of his adminsitration and military leadership dishonored him by their actions but like a true leader he stood in front of the American people and took the fall for their actions. The tragedy of Hoover is that before he was President he saved a continent and generations of people, but as President he couldn't save his own people.

In continuing a theme, John Quincy Adams likewise was a great and towering presence in our history. His diplomatic life is unmatched by almost all and might only be bettered by his own father. But as President, his Adams bloodline betrayed him, and the growing change in electoral politics signaled a different way to handle the office than he was capable or willing to accept. But the picture of John Quincy Adams that we should remember is not of a failed President and a corrupt bargain, but of a man dying in Congress fighting for a cause he believed in and using the full measure of his power to make the argument that he believed was right.

Warran Harding was another version of Chester Arthur, enjoying the trappings of the office moreso than the office and the hard work itself. His misplaced loyalty or agnostic leadership style cost him a historical legacy. His untimely death was mourned untilt he American people felt betrayed. His greatest asset to the office was his choice of a few key cabinet members who did a great job in those offices under his banner.

Finally, Rutherford Hayes was likewise a good solid historical man in our political discourse. He sought a course for reforms in Washington but was plagued, like John Quincy, with an election result that was simply too garbled to find a mandate in. With James Garfield and eventually William McKinley ascending to the office, Hayes has a political tree of friendships and an inner circle that has left a lasting mark on the office. But it wasn't his personal mark. Hayes' raw score isn't wrong, but when you measure him against the men in this group he is lacking a great deal.

Which brings us to the two guys right on the cusp of this tier, Martin Van Buren and John Tyler. The best most lasting and important legacy of John Tyler is that he forcefully assumed the office after the death of William Henry Harrison and in doing so established the hierarchy of the office as measured against Congress and even the executive cabinet. By the action of John Tyler, the office of President was clearly the predominate position in our government as it should be. Van Buren meanwhile wasn't a leader himself but was a continuation of Jackson and was given the nomination as a reward for his political work for Jackson. Once he gained the office, in many ways, it was too big and important for him to the be the guy at the top. However his foreign policy was solid and his style of measured restraint with all issues should be rewarded. He wasn't an awful President in the end, he just wasn't Presidential enough, and his inability to stand above the times he tried to lead in allowed the Whig party to capture the office.

We're going to capture Van Buren and Tyler in this group as a result because in the end their raw score basically made them equal to this group. And with that, after balancing the men here against each other, the final ranking is most fairly seen as follows:

35 - Warren G. Harding

34 - Rutherford B. Hayes

33 - Herbert Hoover

32 - Martin Van Buren

31 - John Tyler

30 - John Quincy Adams

29 - Gerald Ford

The first tier to really take the raw score and turn it on its head, in the end, to me, for a measure of the times he held the office, Gerald Ford doesn't get enough credit for what he did as President. Moreso than policy, he stood in the face of a discontent with the office that shattered the public trust and in a single act he really did allow the nation to start on the path to healing itself and moving forward. And this group overall for the most part is not unimportant. Many of these guys were solid contributors to our nation during their lives, many of them wholly honorable, and in Hoover, someone who can literally say saved people the likes of which very few President's ever have. But he didn't do it while President. And the historical legacy of these men, in the end, likely focuses on things that don't give you a great rating in this exercise.

 

[Leeroy Jenkins]

Can somebody please put all of Yankees write ups of the presidents, the rankings, the electoral college stuff and what he is about to do with the tiers in one place so that I can print them and read them and even give to my father to review? He's a major history and political buff.

Tia.

 

[Leeroy Jenkins]

This is fantastic Yankee. Did you need to review any materials for this or has it all been off the top of your head with internal reflection?

 

[Yankee23Fan]

At this point we have dealt with what can be considered the bottom third of the historical rankings of Presidents. That ranking is:

43 - Franklin Pierce

42 - Andrew Johnson

41 - James Buchanan

40 - William Henry Harrison

39 - Millard Fillmore

38 - Zachary Taylor

37 - Chester Arthur

36 - James Garfield

35 - Warren G. Harding

34 - Rutherford B. Hayes

33 - Herbert Hoover

32 - Martin Van Buren

31 - John Tyler

30 - John Quincy Adams

29 - Gerald Ford

The names that stand out to me here for the most part are James Garfield, John Quincy Adams and Herbert Hoover. In Garfield what might have been is sadly a reminder of lost potential towards greatness. In John Quincy Adams we see the end of the Adams' family power in government and truly Shakesperean political tragedy in how the legacies of this son and his father could not use their enormous diplomatic power and raw unmatched passion for the causes they fought for and turn that into a Presidential legacy. And in Herbert Hoover we have a great man whose work for the entire world gets unfairly ignored in the face of the Great Depression and the ascendency to office of one of our formost political legends.

The stories of the men in this grouping overall are ones of failure, unrealized potential and tragedy for the most part. Few if any of them were truly bad men. Pierce's ultimate deciding mental state for when he took office was shattered by the death of his son. A broken man who couldn't rise to be a leader, you are hard pressed to call him evil. But he was a failure. And the death of several of these men far too soon in their time in office cuts short the stories their administration could have told.

The next third of Presidents sees more success than failure, more legacy than ignorance, and more troubling times for the nation they led, and the world that that nation had to navigate through.

 

[timschochet]

Great work Yankee but I still think you heavily overestimate both George W. Bush and Jimmy Carter, two of our very worst Presidents, both of whom deserve a lower ranking than Franklin Pierce.

 

[Yankee23Fan]

Great work Yankee but I still think you heavily overestimate both George W. Bush and Jimmy Carter, two of our very worst Presidents, both of whom deserve a lower ranking than Franklin Pierce.

I obviously disagree strongly.

 

[Yankee23Fan]

Tier 4 - The Middle of the Pack

The next tier, from 29-35 (but excluding the two guys that actually scored 29) (my rules) is an interesting collection of leaders. They are:

Taft 35

W. Bush 34

Carter 33

B. Harrison 32

Benjamin Harrison is usually forgotten by history but he was a solid albeit unspectacular President. He failed to understand the political realities of his election and his time in office and that arrogance or naivete, whichever it was, doomed him for the most part. But he was a champion of civil rights and he was a reformer. He deserves to be in this tier even though many lists would have him near the bottom.

William Howard Taft was likewise a solid President that also hurt himself with political realities of the day. Looking back at Taft's legacy the clear result is that he was never suited to be President. He much more suited, and served much better being on the Supreme Court. That was his calling in life. And the manner in which he handled his time as President, more as a judge than a political executive, resulted in his party fracturing the alienation of Teddy Roosevelt who got him elected and his failure to win a second term.

And then there is Jimmy Carter and George W. Bush. This community is full of opinions on Bush so there isn't any great need to go in depth on him again. His real negatives are bad, but his positives are (and yes there are positives) are good. He becomes a hard one to judge and the first on the list that was part of the final group whose history is not quite fully written yet. History will still be his ultimate judge but I am comfortable with him in this group for now. The much harder President is Jimmy Carter.

I said it in the rankings and I am married to it more and more - Jimmy Carter is to Ronald Reagan the way John Adams was to Thomas Jefferson. The manner in which the administrations were handled, fought each other and then moved on from history are almost identical. Ronald Reagan enjoyed an economic boom in his administration thanks in no small part to the policies of Jimmy Carter that Carter himself was unable to articulate well to the American people and which were hard to handle in the time he was in office. And the actions of Carter after leaving office are not graded here. So the negatives or positives one sees there must be removed from the equation. Jimmy Carter stands as a President who made the politically unpopular decision to fix what was broken the hard way. Standing up and continuing on the path you've chosen in the face of loud opposition is a calling of a leader. Bush himself can be defined similarly in some ways. I truly believe the longer we have passed from Carter's administration the more historians should be able to come to a better conclusion on his work. The jury is still out on Bush but there is certainly no shortage of opinions.

For this group, the raw score has been taken in to account and the final ranking is:

28 - William Howard Taft

27 - George W. Bush

26 - Benjamin Harrison

25 - Jimmy Carter

The raw scores only differed by a point in between each and in looking at this final group, to me you can probably move the four of them around here in almost any combination. Bush will rise and fall over time. I'm not convinced that Jimmy Carter won't be higher in future lists.

 

[Yankee23Fan]

Tier 5 - It's Starting to Get Better

The tier with raw scores between 36-42 we are starting to approach the guys that were very good to better. But we still have this tier to deal with and another group of four names:

Madison 39

Cleveland 37

Nixon 37

Coolidge 36

A founder, the only President to resign in disgrace, the guy that controlled the roaring 20's and the only guy to be elected to two non-consecutive terms. An interesting group to say the least. Madison is here because his greatness to our history is better left to the time before he was President. As President, he had his share of mistakes including not handling the War of 1812 very well at all. Cleveland is here because there is no shining moment, no legacy creating policy, program or speech, and no great mistep of any kind for the most part. If this tier is the bottom of the guys that were good, he fits in perfectly. He was neither very good nor very bad. He was solid but better described as the definition of mediocre in the office.

And then there is Richard Nixon. His own worst enemy. The personal demons this man had destroyed what could have been a pretty stellar legacy. That later in life he was once again an elder statesman only proves that more. He has some large legacy building accomplishments. He has some truly awful to downright terrible mistakes and, frankly, outright crimes. His true haters would vilify me for having him this high. But he should be. As I said in his ranking if you, for mental gymnastic purposes, remove Watergate from the story, which you obviously can't, this was a pretty successful President. But man was Watergate a blunder of epic proportions. The fact that at the end of the day it wasn't necessary ( in the sense that he didn't need the political acts that he thought he needed by doing it) just makes the whole thing that much more mind boggling.

Balancing these guys against each other you can't place Richard Nixon on the list ahead of James Madison, that's for sure. Coolidge was a fine President in his own right so he shouldn't be tainted by Nixon, and then there is Cleveland. I keep saying that. The final standings of this group are:

24 - Richard Nixon

23 - Grover Cleveland

22 - James Madison

21 - Calvin Coolidge

Fracking Nixon. If he could just accept that he had overcome the weaknesses of his younger years. If only.

 

[Yankee23Fan]

Tier 6 - The Final Middle of the Pack Guys Who Had Moments of Greatness

The tier that sees raw scores of 43-49, it's the biggest collection in the rankings. 8 men scored in this group for their time in office. They are:

Adams 49

Obama 49

L. Johnson 48

Truman 46

Kennedy 45

HW Bush 45

Jackson 44

Grant 44

Another massively interesting collection of Presidents that includes our current one whose story isn't even done yet. It might be the group where my personal biases comes out the most in the final tally.

John Adams is the only man in our entire history as a nation who entire life's work measures up to the greatest Americans that we usually say we had (Washington, Lincoln, Franklin, and even King). There was no greater diplomat in our history, no better leader for the revolution, no better mind on the new ideal of American government and no better man to follow Washington. But all that greatness just didn't quite get into the White House that he was the first to live in. Still though, history has proven him right on his actions as President with the only black mark the Alien and Sedition Acts which can be tolerated given the times enough to not drop him to the bottom of the list. There just should have been so much more.

Barack Obama has the next century to be defined and it is going to take that long. But the impact he has had on the office and the nation is really unquestioned. The only thing that remains is what are the ultimate results. Lyndon Johnson was a very good President but had his problems and his policy opponents like me question the policies that he left us with that we are still dealing with. Harry Truman was one of our greatest Presidents whose raw score ended up being too low when you measure him against the group he finds himself in. John Kennedy continues to be, for me, the most overrated President in our history, routinely getting into the top 10 in these types of exercises when he simply doesn't deserve it. I could be pressed to find more fault than success in his office, but he represented something powerful and the 10 he got in persuasion dwarfs the lower scores in other areas. George H.W. Bush was a very good, solid and honorable President who was simply unable to keep up with the changing times and the new way to handle politics entering the 90's. Andrew Jackson is usually considered a legend but he doesn't get enough blame for his games with the economy and the Bank of the United States. And Ulysses S. Grant can find himself anywhere from the bottom of these rankings to this level and I chose to ultimately have him here because he was a good President whose scandal ridden administration was never effected at the top in his office.

These are all good Presidents or men that defined a time or became the definition of the time. Men who lead this country well or fundamentally altered the nature of their office and how it interacts with the American people and the world. There weren't all successes and there were, in fact, some pretty bad miscalculations. But the positives outway for the most part the negatives here. The final ranking of this group and the end of this middle third of Presidents is:

20 - Ulysses S. Grant

19 - John F. Kennedy

18 - George Herbert Walker Bush

17 - Andrew Jackson

16 - Lyndon Johnson

15 - Barack Obama

14 - John Adams

And I'm going to hold off on Harry Truman because he belongs in the next tier of Presidents. So from the original 8 here we stop at 7, as Truman is going to move up in the rankings as you measure his work in office against the next 3 guys in the next tier.

 

[Yankee23Fan]

Before we get to the final third of Presidents and the upper eschelon of leaders we have had (is having a top 13 good or bad?) the list as it stands now from worst to just outside the begginings of greatness are:

43 - Franklin Pierce

42 - Andrew Johnson

41 - James Buchanan

40 - William Henry Harrison

39 - Millard Fillmore

38 - Zachary Taylor

37 - Chester Arthur

36 - James Garfield

35 - Warren G. Harding

34 - Rutherford B. Hayes

33 - Herbert Hoover

32 - Martin Van Buren

31 - John Tyler

30 - John Quincy Adams

29 - Gerald Ford

28 - William Howard Taft

27 - George W. Bush

26 - Benjamin Harrison

25 - Jimmy Carter

24 - Richard Nixon

23 - Grover Cleveland

22 - James Madison

21 - Calvin Coolidge

20 - Ulysses S. Grant

19 - John F. Kennedy

18 - George Herbert Walker Bush

17 - Andrew Jackson

16 - Lyndon Johnson

15 - Barack Obama

14 - John Adams

There is certainly no shame missing the final 13 and the next tiers and groups. We are going to start dealing with really good legacies to towering figures whose work built, defined, saved and lead this nation and captured the imagination of generations.

 

[Yankee23Fan]

Tier 7 - Just Below Greatness

This next to last tier has seven men plus Harry Truman and are some of the better leaders that ever held the office. They all served two terms, except Polk who is a category unto himself in many respects, and Harry Truman who served almost the entire 4th term of FDR - and McKinley would have if not assassinated. Eisenhowers 57 is put in this group so that, simply for form sake, the final tier has a top 5, and for the fact that with my top 5 he belongs just slightly under those guys and in this list. They are:

Eisenhower 57

Reagan 56

Polk 55

McKinley 52

Wilson 52

Jefferson 50

Clinton 50

Truman *46

In going through this exercise I expected Eisenhower to be in my top 5. He usually is when I'm asked. But when you break down this group against the next, there is a just a little more with the next group and he falls just outside it. Reagan was in my top 5 for much of my adult life. But as you begin to understand the Carter administration and then couple with the mistakes and long term results of Reagan's policies, I'm still hard pressed to say he was anything but very good, but he isn't a top 5 President. Polk should be this high as the singular President who only served one term and didn't stand for re-election because he fully finished the work he set out to do. Woodrow Wilson and Thomas Jefferson are two towering figures in the office who should be this high, and I surprised myself by getting Clinton this high as well. But by the time you get this high one thing is clear - the best Presidents, in the end, are going to score 10 or close to it in political acumen and persuasion and those that can take that power and ability usuaully are able to use it in other areas to come up with a pretty solid legacy.

And Truman gets lumped in with this group because my raw score was just slightly unfair to the hard work and lasting legacy he truly has - but he isn't a top 5 guy. He simply doesn't get above the final 5. But he is above the 14 guys below him for sure. There really isn't anything to be said that hasn't already been said, and in balancing these guys against each other you find yourself beginning to pick at "little things" to differentiate. This is the Marino/Elway/Montana group in that sense. You would have been happy for most part with any of them. The final rankings here are:

13 - Thomas Jefferson

12 - William McKinley

11 - William Jefferson Clinton

10 - James K. Polk

9 - Harry Truman

8 - Woodrow Wilson

7 - Ronald Reagan

6 - Dwight Eisenhower

tim isn't a huge fan of Woodrow Wilson, but I don't care. I'm comfortable with this group and this ranking about as much as you can be when you start splitting hairs. Jefferson is still overrated but I'm fihgting the better nature of myself and giving him credit for the context of his times. The final group of Presidents, out top 5, are legends for the most part. Harry Truman becomes the guy that moved the most in my overall list going from low teens to top 10. Everything else being equal it really isn't that much of a jump. On to the top 5 and finally the end of this thing.

 

[FUBAR]

13 - Thomas Jefferson

12 - William McKinley

11 - William Jefferson Clinton

10 - James K. Polk

9 - Harry Truman

8 - Woodrow Wilson

7 - Ronald Reagan

6 - Dwight Eisenhower

hard to argue too much but it seems very odd that TJ would be ranked below Clinton, Polk... really anyone here other than Ike.

or did I miss where you're not including their legacy outside of their POTUS time?

 

[Yankee23Fan]

Tier 8 - the Great Top Five of American Presidents

In this final group we have three of the four faces on Mount Rushmore, the final Founding Father to serve in the office, and the President who served the longest in the office and dealt with World War II. Their raw rankings for me end up being accurate and so they remain in the order the originally finished.

5 - James Monroe

Monroe will forever be remembered as the only President accept Washington run "unopposed" for the office. Washington didn't really run in that sense and it wasn't an election for him so much as a fulfillment of the revolution. Monroe had to deal with opposition partys and elections and in his first term he destroyed the opposition leaving none to stand against him for his second election. The final Founding Father to hold the office, Monroe's administration is the final cornerstone of the monument of American government. The generation that followed him was tasked to continue the great work that the founders began. A new nation was born. It suffered through initial hiccups, another war or two, and entry onto the world stage with a level of respect necessary for building a state that could stand the test of time. The Era of Good Feelings was just that, and in 1825 when James Monroe stepped down in the honorable tradition of George Washington, he left the American people at the grown up table of world politics. How they handled that new found responsibility would be up to them. But like Donald Trump, they were given a pretty good head start thanks to men that challenged a world empire and fought for a simple ideal made more complicated by the true nature of men. James Monroe deserves this spot and gets overlooked too much if that is even possible.

4 - Franklin D. Roosevelt

My personal preference has Teddy over his distant cousin, but you could move the Roosevelts around each other and not be wrong. Coming into office at the bottom of the Great Depression, Roosevelt changed the fundamnetal nature of the government, worked on the problem at hand in front of him and then when the world descended into anarchy and America was attacked, he rose up a great nation to fight the battle against Naziism that was a battle for the very soul of mankind in many ways. The world is not hard pressed to list bad regimes, evil empires, and bloody rulers who kill anything that they want to or that stands in their way, but Adolf Hitler's personal brand of lunacy and madness might just be the most evil. But that isn't the debate here. When America was at it lowest, when the country didn't have a functioning economy, and when it was attacked and made to feel weak, unprepared and scared of a world war coming to its shores, Roosevelt lead the nation and ultimately the world to victory. His New Deal changed American politics. His leadership during the war cemented America as a dominate world power. And his legacy will stand for all time in our history as one of our truly greatest leaders in a time when great leaders were most certainly needed.

3 - Theodore Roosevelt

Let's be honest - any guy on this list that can get shot in the chest, wipe it off like a Matrix movie and then still give a speech is going to be a titan. And Teddy was a titan. Beyond his policies and practices, his own personal space, his presence in a room and in the government was just bigger and more powerful than anything near it. There are so few human beings in recorded history that had such a presence that weren't religious leaders that you have to be is awe of him as you read and learn about him. Remarkable might just be an understatement. When we complain about political leaders and question their stances on issues, their leadership ability and their power of communication, what we are really truly saying in the end is that we want another Theodore Roosevelt. We want the big powerful alpha male in a position of leadership who charges a course and fights for it while at the same time communicating to the people directly and through the media a message of strength, leadership and courage, mixed with a little humor. The current crop of people running for President combined don't have half the gravitas that Roosevelt had. And that is why we already feel like we have to choose between the lesser of evils.

2 - George Washington

What can you say about this man that hasn't already been said? He led a ragtag group of non-soldiers to defeat an empire. His presence was Roosevelt's in 18th century terms in any room he was in. He assumed the mantle of ultimate power with respect, dignity, humility and grace. He stepped down from ultimate power when he could have crowned himself like so many ultimate despots have in human history. He called for American greatness and independence from the European world. He marked in his final address to the nation the course his country should set to be a world leader and hit almost to the exact moment when his country would be ready to be a true world player. In the end, at the very bottom of the book that will be written about this American nation in the coming centuries, the story will be a simple one. In George Washington, we had the perfect leader to help forge a new nation and then allowed that nation to be the very thing he fought for it to be and didn't get hindered by his own lust for personal power. Without George Washington there is no America for future Presidents. And there is only one man who can claim a higher place for his job was to ultimately save what Washington built and to do so in such a way that it could reach the potential that Washington saw a century before.

1 - Abraham Lincoln

And Lincoln was that man. I said it in his rankings. In the history of American political speech, when you want to come up with a top 5 list of the most important and powerful speeches every delivered on our soil, Lincoln has four of them. And he clearly has the top spot as well with the brilliant Gettyburgh Address. Lincoln had a skill that few leaders have. He just got it, and he could articulate it so that every corner of the nation understood the message, the goal and the man delivering that message. Cooper Union, House Divided, Second Inaugural and Gettyburgh should be required reading by every school child in this nation for all time. They are remarkable in every way. And so was Lincoln. The Civil War that could have destroyed this nation failed because of his leadership and vision. The government of the people, by the people and for the people was going to endure because of his strength. His house was not going to stay divided and he was going to use the last full measure of himself to make sure that was the case.

It's entirely possible that his death has clouded, just a little, his standing in history. He was taken from us before he had to deal with the hard work of rebuilding the nation. It's certainly possible that he could have come away from reconstruction battered and bruised the way future presidents were. But he was better than all of them and in that we have to believe that our nation would have better for it as well. The tragedy of his assassination is operatic. It is so powerful and saddening that it also has the ability to uplift and inspire. He was an American martyr. He died fighting for his cause; for his nation. John Wilkes Booth took more from us that night in Ford's Theatre than just a President. He took a part of the very soul that makes America the nation it is. But in the aftermath, after years and years of struggle to rebuild we eventually did. And the nation that Lincoln fought for now stands as the most powerful empire the world has ever known and even through its largest mistakes it still is a different world power than others before it. Not perfect and not angelic. But not conquering nor despotic. We might get things wrong, but we do it as a people that control our destiny in a nation that allows us to do so. What Washington started, Lincoln finished. A nation so conceived by the founders to be run by the people of that nation can endure because it can have men like Abraham Lincoln at its healm, steering through the worst of times and never losing sight of the ultimate goal. This all might be far too romantic, but he deserves it. Abraham Lincoln was the greatest President this country has had in its 239 odd years of existence. And it has had the last 150 years because of him.

 

[Yankee23Fan]

13 - Thomas Jefferson

12 - William McKinley

11 - William Jefferson Clinton

10 - James K. Polk

9 - Harry Truman

8 - Woodrow Wilson

7 - Ronald Reagan

6 - Dwight Eisenhower

hard to argue too much but it seems very odd that TJ would be ranked below Clinton, Polk... really anyone here other than Ike.

or did I miss where you're not including their legacy outside of their POTUS time?

Correct - just time as POTUS.

 

[Yankee23Fan]

This is fantastic Yankee. Did you need to review any materials for this or has it all been off the top of your head with internal reflection?

No it was more work than I intended it to be but I had fun with it. I enjoy the topic of the Presidency about as much as Joh Gruden enjoys quaterbacks. I have a lot of it at my fingertips from what I've read, I stole some from various webites I've visited over the years - I think for one President I pretty much copied and pasted a large section simply because I couldn't summarize it any better than it already was. I cheated a little on the Vice Presidents because really, it's the Vice Presidents. How many dates can you get when you tell a chick you have them all memorized?

 

[timschochet]

Excellent job, Yankee. I fail to understand your high regard for Woodrow Wilson, but that's quibbling. I'm glad my own amateurish efforts inspired you to do this.

 

[larch]

Excellent job, Yankee. I fail to understand your high regard for Woodrow Wilson, but that's quibbling. I'm glad my own amateurish efforts inspired you to do this.

And his was 1000 times better.

 

[Leeroy Jenkins]

This is fantastic Yankee. Did you need to review any materials for this or has it all been off the top of your head with internal reflection?

No it was more work than I intended it to be but I had fun with it. I enjoy the topic of the Presidency about as much as Joh Gruden enjoys quaterbacks. I have a lot of it at my fingertips from what I've read, I stole some from various webites I've visited over the years - I think for one President I pretty much copied and pasted a large section simply because I couldn't summarize it any better than it already was. I cheated a little on the Vice Presidents because really, it's the Vice Presidents. How many dates can you get when you tell a chick you have them all memorized?

If you've typed all this out before posting in a word document, I'd love to see it.

 

[Yankee23Fan]

This is fantastic Yankee. Did you need to review any materials for this or has it all been off the top of your head with internal reflection?

No it was more work than I intended it to be but I had fun with it. I enjoy the topic of the Presidency about as much as Joh Gruden enjoys quaterbacks. I have a lot of it at my fingertips from what I've read, I stole some from various webites I've visited over the years - I think for one President I pretty much copied and pasted a large section simply because I couldn't summarize it any better than it already was. I cheated a little on the Vice Presidents because really, it's the Vice Presidents. How many dates can you get when you tell a chick you have them all memorized?

If you've typed all this out before posting in a word document, I'd love to see it.

It depends. How nerdy is it if I admit I did the presidents all typed out on one document that is 102 pages long?

 

[timschochet]

51. Henry Luce

Show me a man who claims he is objective and I'll show you a man with illusions.

Nobody solved my hint. Oh well. Henry Luce was born in Tenghow, China, to American missionary parents. Luce was the founder and publisher of four incredibly influential magazines, Time, Life, Fortune, and Sports Illustrated. These magazines changed American society in a variety of important ways, in terms of politics, culture, leisure, and economics. It would not be too much to argue that, in the years before television dominated America's impression of itself, and even in the first couple of decades of that change, no private citizen in the United States was more powerful than Henry Luce, and perhaps no public official at times, either.

Luce did not wield his influence forcefully and specifically the way that a few other media titans did (including one or two which I will get to in a little while in this list); he saved his power for bigger things. A believer in the greatness of the USA, he declared the 20th century "the American century", and much of our thinking in the Cold War can be traced back to him. It was Luce who was the impetus behind the "China Lobby", arguing that we had "lost China to the Communists". It is no coincidence that the US did not formally recognize the People's Republic of China until a few years after Luce's death. (Ironically, the man who decided upon that recognition, Richard Nixon, was in part the creation of Henry Luce.)

It was Henry Luce who decided to reject the candidacy of Robert Taft for President and turned instead to Dwight Eisenhower; in this, his influence had more effect than any politician in the GOP. It was Luce's tacit endorsement of Joseph McCarthy and positive write-ups of the Senator in Time and Life that transformed McCarthy into a political superstar. And it was Luce's efforts, in the waning years of his life, to keep the "domino theory" alive, thus ensuring the United States' eventual entry into the Vietnam War.

However, it would be wrong and simplistic to paint Luce merely, in terms of politics, as a conservative force. He was far more complex than that. In the 1930's Luce exposed America to Keynesian ideas through Fortune magazine, making several of FDR's New Deal efforts easier. And Luce, always an internationalist, fought against isolationism and did much to expose Americans to the evils of Nazism and Adolf Hitler.

His contributions to culture and leisure are nearly as important. Sports Illustrated transformed American sport, which had previously been mostly regional (all of the professional teams, for example, were located on the east coast. Luce deliberately made national heroes of sports stars in order to compete with the celebrity of Hollywood. (The most famous example of this stardom is somebody I will get to later in this list.) Life altered societal norms by offering photographs of previously "taboo" subjects (such as the famous "Birth of the Baby" in 1938.) And it's incredible photography of war changed American perceptions of 3 wars: World War II, Korea, and Vietnam.

Next up: A King from Gary, Indiana...

 

[larch]

This is fantastic Yankee. Did you need to review any materials for this or has it all been off the top of your head with internal reflection?

No it was more work than I intended it to be but I had fun with it. I enjoy the topic of the Presidency about as much as Joh Gruden enjoys quaterbacks. I have a lot of it at my fingertips from what I've read, I stole some from various webites I've visited over the years - I think for one President I pretty much copied and pasted a large section simply because I couldn't summarize it any better than it already was. I cheated a little on the Vice Presidents because really, it's the Vice Presidents. How many dates can you get when you tell a chick you have them all memorized?

If you've typed all this out before posting in a word document, I'd love to see it.

It depends. How nerdy is it if I admit I did the presidents all typed out on one document that is 102 pages long?

It would be a lot easier to read it all in one place without having to see all of tim's posts.

 

[skol asylum]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scott_L._King

 

[timschochet]

I have now completed half my list.

51. Henry Luce

52. Frank Sinatra

53. Steven Spielberg

54. Lucky Luciano

55. Louis Armstrong

56. Sitting Bull

57. George Washington Carver

58. Robert E. Lee

59. Malcolm X

60. Joseph Smith

61. John Dewey

62. Daniel; Webster

63. William T. Sherman

64. John Wooden

65. Helen Keller

66. Cesar Chavez

67. Walter Cronkite

68. George C. Patton

69. John Muir

70. John D. Rockefeller

71. Henry Clay

72. Stephen King

73. Henry Kaiser

74. Earl Warren

75. Frank Lloyd Wright

76. Gregory Pincus

77. Oprah Winfrey

78. Harreit Beecher Stowe

79. Winfield Scott

80. Dr. Seuss

81. Stonewall Jackson

82. John Wayne

83. Jim Thorpe

84. Andrew Carnegie

85. Clarence Darrow

86. Howard Hughes

87. John Marshall

88. Brigham Young

89. Ray Croc

90. Marilyn Monroe

91. Rachel Carson

92. John L. Lewis

93. Madonna

94. Billy Graham

95. George Gershwin

96. Huey Long

97. Eli Whitney

98. Joseph R. McCarthy

99. John Brown

100. Billie Jean King

I'd love some feedback. Any gross errors here? (Please don't mention anybody who you think has been left out until the list is done, because they may be in the upper 50.) TIA

 

[timschochet]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scott_L._King

Nice guess. I am thinking of somebody else, though.

 

[timschochet]

This is fantastic Yankee. Did you need to review any materials for this or has it all been off the top of your head with internal reflection?

No it was more work than I intended it to be but I had fun with it. I enjoy the topic of the Presidency about as much as Joh Gruden enjoys quaterbacks. I have a lot of it at my fingertips from what I've read, I stole some from various webites I've visited over the years - I think for one President I pretty much copied and pasted a large section simply because I couldn't summarize it any better than it already was. I cheated a little on the Vice Presidents because really, it's the Vice Presidents. How many dates can you get when you tell a chick you have them all memorized?

If you've typed all this out before posting in a word document, I'd love to see it.

It depends. How nerdy is it if I admit I did the presidents all typed out on one document that is 102 pages long?

It would be a lot easier to read it all in one place without having to see all of tim's posts.

Why don't you start your own thread and paste all of Yankee's posts in it, rather than continue to fill up this one with your meaningless tripe?

 

[larch]

This is fantastic Yankee. Did you need to review any materials for this or has it all been off the top of your head with internal reflection?

No it was more work than I intended it to be but I had fun with it. I enjoy the topic of the Presidency about as much as Joh Gruden enjoys quaterbacks. I have a lot of it at my fingertips from what I've read, I stole some from various webites I've visited over the years - I think for one President I pretty much copied and pasted a large section simply because I couldn't summarize it any better than it already was. I cheated a little on the Vice Presidents because really, it's the Vice Presidents. How many dates can you get when you tell a chick you have them all memorized?

If you've typed all this out before posting in a word document, I'd love to see it.

It depends. How nerdy is it if I admit I did the presidents all typed out on one document that is 102 pages long?

It would be a lot easier to read it all in one place without having to see all of tim's posts.

Why don't you start your own thread and paste all of Yankee's posts in it, rather than continue to fill up this one with your meaningless tripe?

Kind of like your posts, right?

 

[Yankee23Fan]

I'd love some feedback. Any gross errors here? (Please don't mention anybody who you think has been left out until the list is done, because they may be in the upper 50.) TIA

You serious Clark?

 

[Yankee23Fan]

tim did you post a final rundown of your president list? I genuinly curious how different they are because I gave you a lot of grief, more for the fun of it than anything, but I'd be curious to see who is massively different.

 

[skol asylum]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scott_L._King

Nice guess. I am thinking of somebody else, though.

We're thrilled to read your take right here in black and white.

 

[timschochet]

tim did you post a final rundown of your president list? I genuinly curious how different they are because I gave you a lot of grief, more for the fun of it than anything, but I'd be curious to see who is massively different.

I did but I have to go back and look. I'll see if I can find it.

 

[timschochet]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scott_L._King

Nice guess. I am thinking of somebody else, though.

We're thrilled to read your take right here in black and white.

Too obvious, eh? Oh well. At least nobody got Henry Luce.

 

[Yankee23Fan]

And Bender - - - - - -where's the rest of the fruit?

 

[Don Quixote]

Kind of hard to critique Tim's list without knowing who has been left off (besides for picks such as Helen Keller). No Presidents and not many Secretaries of State or founding fathers yet. I understand the greats will be near the top of the list, but lots of second-tier people that would probably be properly placed in the back half of the Top 100.

 

[Leeroy Jenkins]

This is fantastic Yankee. Did you need to review any materials for this or has it all been off the top of your head with internal reflection?

No it was more work than I intended it to be but I had fun with it. I enjoy the topic of the Presidency about as much as Joh Gruden enjoys quaterbacks. I have a lot of it at my fingertips from what I've read, I stole some from various webites I've visited over the years - I think for one President I pretty much copied and pasted a large section simply because I couldn't summarize it any better than it already was. I cheated a little on the Vice Presidents because really, it's the Vice Presidents. How many dates can you get when you tell a chick you have them all memorized?

If you've typed all this out before posting in a word document, I'd love to see it.

It depends. How nerdy is it if I admit I did the presidents all typed out on one document that is 102 pages long?

On a scale from 1-10, I'd say 44 (depending on Grover Cleveland)

 

[timschochet]

Here you go Yankee:

43 - William Henry Harrison

42 - James Buchanan

41 - Jimmy Carter

40 - George W. Bush

39 - Martin Van Buren

38 - Franklin Pierce

37. Warren G. Harding

36. Andrew Johnson

35. James A. Garfield

34. Herbert Hoover

33. John Tyler

32. Benjamin Harrison

31. Millard Fillmore

30. Woodrow Wilson

29. Andrew Jackson

28. John Quincy Adams

27. Zachary Taylor

26. Gerald Ford

25. George H. W. Bush

24. Calvin Coolidge

23. John F. Kennedy

22. Rutherford B. Hayes

21. Chester Arthur

20. Lyndon B. Johnson

19. William Howard Taft

18. Ulysses S. Grant

17. Grover Cleveland

16. Bill Clinton

15. William McKinley

14. Barack Obama

13. James Madison

12. Richard M. Nixon

11. Thomas Jefferson

10. Franklin Delano Roosevelt

9. James Monroe

8. Ronald Reagan

7. John Adams

6. Dwight Eisenhower

5. James Polk

4. Teddy Roosevelt

3. Harry Truman

2. George Washington

1. Abraham Lincoln

 

[timschochet]

Kind of hard to critique Tim's list without knowing who has been left off (besides for picks such as Helen Keller). No Presidents and not many Secretaries of State or founding fathers yet. I understand the greats will be near the top of the list, but lots of second-tier people that would probably be properly placed in the back half of the Top 100.

Brigham Young was President of Deseret. (The Great Salt Lake).

Sinatra was better than President; he was Chairman of the Board!

 

[timschochet]

Oh, you meant President of the US. There are 10 of those in my top 50. (But don't go looking at my Presidents list for help, because in this case I am looking at overall achievements as Americans, so the ranking will be quite different.)

 

[larch]

Still at Obama being the 14th best President in tim's list.

 

[dparker713]

I'd love some feedback. Any gross errors here? (Please don't mention anybody who you think has been left out until the list is done, because they may be in the upper 50.) TIA

17 of your picks thus far are pop culture related. Artists, publishers, sportsmen, etc. That's pretty staggering. Also, you've got the lawyers/judges either wrong or massively out of place.

 

[Don Quixote]

Oh, you meant President of the US. There are 10 of those in my top 50. (But don't go looking at my Presidents list for help, because in this case I am looking at overall achievements as Americans, so the ranking will be quite different.)

That's a fine number, but my point would just be that Presidents 11-15/20 probably deserve a spot in the back half of the 100 too. For example, I think you mentioned that Nixon did not make the Top 100. Given your definition of "greatest," I have trouble buying him as a less significant person in American history than Billie Jean King, Helen Keller, Dr. Seuss, Stonewall Jackson, etc.

 

[jwb]

Still at Obama being the 14th best President in tim's list.

He's 15th best on Yankees list. Apparently they both think, in the larger rhetoric-less context, that he's a decent president. I agree.

 

[larch]

Still at Obama being the 14th best President in tim's list.

He's 15th best on Yankees list. Apparently they both think, in the larger rhetoric-less context, that he's a decent president. I agree.

Cool, a double

 

[Yankee23Fan]

Interesting Comparisons

George Washington (EV)

tim and I both have him at 2. He should always be either 1 or 2 so this isn't a surprise.

John Adams (yank -7)

I'm the biggest supporter of John Adams that I know, so I would assume I rank him higher. But tim has him at 7 and I have him at 14. I am pleased with tim's ranking of him that high because he deserves more credit in history then he gets, but to me it feels too high when you balance out the differences he had with the guys around him in the 7-14 area of the lists. And it really gets hard to list a one termer who lost re-election in the top 10 unless their administration was just exceptional. And as much as I like the guy, his wasn't.

Thomas Jefferson (yank -2)

I have him at 13, tim has him at 11. That's basically a push to me as that would put them in basically the same tier.

James Madison (yank -9)

I have him at 22 and tim has him at 13. I think tim's rating is clouded by non-President work in his history because he just feels like a guy that should be ranked higher.

James Monroe (yank +5)

I have him at 5 while tim has him at 9. A slight difference to be sure, but an important one.

John Quincy Adams (yank -2)

I have him at 30, tim 28. Basically a push.

Andrew Jackson (yank +12)

I have him at 17, tim 29. I think tim is hitting him way too hard for Indian policy while not hitting him hard enough for economic policy which he seems to get away with in these lists. Most historical lists will have him around where I have or higher making tims ranking an extreme outlier.

Martin Van Buren (yank +7)

tim has him at 39 I have him at 32. I would argue tim's bottom 10 is a mess anyway so this doesn't surprise me. Van Buren deserves more credit then he gets in history, but not a lot more. Low 30's is his rightful place.

William Henry Harrison (yank +3)

tim has hit 43 I gave him some credit for his specific plans that we know of and put him at 40 because the guys I have below him don't deserve the cushion of having WHH below them.

John Tyler (yank +2)

I have him at 31, tim 33. Basically a push.

James Polk (yank -5)

I have him at 10, tim has him at 5. He deserves to be in that area. I think 5 is just too high given the titanic names that usually sit there.

Zachary Taylor (yank -11)

I have him at 38 tim put him at 27. That is just way too high to me for what you can comfortably give Taylor credit for.

Millard Fillmore (yank -8)

I have him at 39, tim at 31. tim didn't hit the Fillmore to Buchanan presidents enough in my opinion.

Franklin Pierce (yank -5)

I have Pierce at 43 but tim put him at 38 which to me is exponentially too high for the man that caused the Civil War.

James Buchanan (yank -1)

I have him at 41, tim 42. Push.

Abraham Lincoln (EV)

We both have him at 1.

Andrew Johnson (yank -6)

I have him at 42 and I was being kind while tim has him at 36 and I think that is just way too high because it gives him credit for something when he deserves it for nothing.

Ulysses Grant (yank -2)

I have him at 20, tim 18. Push.

Rutherford Hayes (yank -12)

I have him at 34, tim at 22. I have no idea how he ranked him that high.

James Garfield (yank -1)

I have him at 36, tim 35. Push.

Chester Arthur (yank -16)

I have him at 37, tim 21. Again, no idea how you rank him in the top half of Presidents.

Grover Cleveland (yank -6)

I have him at 23, tim 17. Eh.

Benjamin Harrison (yank +6)

I have him at 26, tim 32. Another guy that doesn't get enough credit for being solid.

William McKinley (yank +3)

I have him at 12, tim 15. Close enough.

Theodore Roosevelt (yank +1)

I have him at 3, tim at 4. Push.

William Howard Taft (yank -9)

I have him at 28 tim got him into the top 20 at 19. Way too high to me.

Woodrow Wilson (yank +22)

I have Wilson at 8 but tim dropped him at 30. History is more on my side there. I still don't understand how tim can justify that one.

Warren Harding (yank +2)

I have 35 and tim has 37. Basically a push.

Calvin Coolidge (yank +3)

I have him at 21, tim 24. Another close one.

Herbert Hoover (yank +1)

I have him at 33 tim 34. Push.

Franklin Roosevelt (yank +6)

I have him at 4 and tim had him at 10. That might be the lowest I've ever seen him on any such list.

Harry Truman (yank -6)

I slotted him into 9 but tim put him at 3. He is a top 10 guy but I don't think top 3 is his true place.

Dwight Eisenhower (EV)

We both have him at 6.

John Kennedy (yank +4)

I have him at 19 while tim has him at 23. I prefer tim's number to be honest because always feels so overrated to me.

Lyndon Johnson (yank +4)

I have him at 16, tim 20. Yeah, he is under the top 10 guys.

Richard Nixon (yank -12)

I put him at 24 but tim made him 12. That's too nice to him because his failures were massive.

Gerald Ford (yank -3)

I put him at 29 and tim put him at 26. I stretched to get him as high as 29 so to me the difference while small numericaly is huge.

Jimmy Carter (yank +16)

Probably one of our top 3 largest disagreements. I have him at 25, tim has him at 41 below Franklin Pierce which is a travishamockery.

Ronald Reagan (yank +1)

I have him at 7, tim 8. Push

George HW Bush (yank +7)

I have him at 18, tim at 25. He was a solid guy.

Bill Clinton (yank +5)

I have him at 11 surprising even myself, tim has him at 16. He is under top 10 so we are close.

George W. Bush (yank +13)

I slotted him into 27 while tim put him at 40. tims ranking is comical and put a damper on his entire exercise. It just did.

Barack Obama (yank -1)

I have him at 15 tim at 14 after he gave him credit for something that wasn't his actual action, but no matter. His place right now is pretty solid whether you agree with his policy or not. Time will tell is he stays there.

So, in total deviation from agreement, my total rankings were +8 showing me to be a little more positive overall on our Presidents in general from tim. We agreed on Lincoln, Washington, and Eisenhower. We disagreed the most on:

1. Woodrow Wilson by 22 points with me ranking him much higher

2. Jimmy Carter by 16 points withe me ranking him much higher

3. Chester Arthur by 16 points with me ranking him much lower.

4. George W. Bush by 13 points with me ranking him higher.

5. Andrew Jackson - 12 points with me higher

Rutherford Hayes - 12 points with me lower

Richard Nixon - 12 points with me lower

In these disagreements I was generally much more positive of this group (+23) than tim was. Which is what Woodrow Wilson represents for the most part. It's also interesting that in the recent era of guys that aren't done being grading yet (Reagan to Obama by my definition) we only disagreed a great deal on one guy, George W. Bush. Which was probably inevitable.

And the Bush ranking by tim that started this decision by me to do my own makes sense, while the Wilson grading by me was the only one that resulted in more than casual comments during the process.

Interesting comparisons.