You can cherry pick stats all you want.
The main difference between Manning and Brady is this:
1. Super Bowl rings, and
2. Manning has had some epic choke jobs. And brady has absolutely ZERO of these.
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Tracking the 2013-2014 Peyton Manning collapse (1 Viewer)
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The main difference between Manning and Brady is this:
1. Super Bowl rings, and
2. Manning has had some epic choke jobs. And brady has absolutely ZERO of these.
Shanahanigans
Footballguy
What about last year when the Pats were blown out by the Ravens at home 28-13?
Or back in 2006 when he had a 21-3 lead over Manning, managed to find a way to lose?
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That's the definition of a team loss. No one play contributed.
Epic choke, for example, is throwing a pick six to Tracy Porter TO LOSE THE GAME.
You Manning fans just can't get your arms around the difference.
Shanahanigans
Footballguy
Oh I see, when Brady plays bad in big games, it's a team game, but when Manning does it's him having an 'epic choke job'. If only Manning would have hopped on that Saint onside kick.
And what about the 21-3 lead Brady blew against Manning in 2006? I am sure Brady can do no wrong in your eyes.
Andrew74
Footballguy
Lol.Oh I see, when Brady plays bad in big games, it's a team game, but when Manning does it's him having an 'epic choke job'. If only Manning would have hopped on that Saint onside kick.
And what about the 21-3 lead Brady blew against Manning in 2006? I am sure Brady can do no wrong in your eyes.
Does Brady play defense?
Again, you're missing the point.
We're talking about singular plays. Like the one I mentioned above. And the int he through last year against Baltimore.
The guy has been doing this since his days at TN.
Shanahanigans
Footballguy
Oh I get it. Plays like when you have a chance to lock up the Super Bowl by passing to a wide open Wes Welker and you throw it too high and behind him. Plays like that?Lol.Oh I see, when Brady plays bad in big games, it's a team game, but when Manning does it's him having an 'epic choke job'. If only Manning would have hopped on that Saint onside kick.
And what about the 21-3 lead Brady blew against Manning in 2006? I am sure Brady can do no wrong in your eyes.
Does Brady play defense?
Again, you're missing the point.
We're talking about singular plays. Like the one I mentioned above. And the int he through last year against Baltimore.
The guy has been doing this since his days at TN.
Andrew74
Footballguy
Didn't Brady have the ball to beat Manning in 2006 and toss an INT? Wasn't that the week after he tossed an INT against SD to lose the game, only to be bailed out by the CB fumbling the ball?Lol.Oh I see, when Brady plays bad in big games, it's a team game, but when Manning does it's him having an 'epic choke job'. If only Manning would have hopped on that Saint onside kick.
And what about the 21-3 lead Brady blew against Manning in 2006? I am sure Brady can do no wrong in your eyes.
Does Brady play defense?
Again, you're missing the point.
We're talking about singular plays. Like the one I mentioned above. And the int he through last year against Baltimore.
The guy has been doing this since his days at TN.
He did, the Pats had last possession and Marlin Jackson picked Brady to end the game.Didn't Brady have the ball to beat Manning in 2006 and toss an INT? Wasn't that the week after he tossed an INT against SD to lose the game, only to be bailed out by the CB fumbling the ball?Lol.Oh I see, when Brady plays bad in big games, it's a team game, but when Manning does it's him having an 'epic choke job'. If only Manning would have hopped on that Saint onside kick.
And what about the 21-3 lead Brady blew against Manning in 2006? I am sure Brady can do no wrong in your eyes.
Does Brady play defense?
Again, you're missing the point.
We're talking about singular plays. Like the one I mentioned above. And the int he through last year against Baltimore.
The guy has been doing this since his days at TN.
fantasy stud
Footballguy
Since the 2005 season manning is 7-6 in the playoffs with one ring. Brady is 9-7 with no rings . Manning is 1-0 head to head in the post season in that time. That's the last 9 years, not a small sample size. My point is people like to make Brady sound like a post season god and manning to be a complete bum. However, the facts are they have had very similar success and failures for a long time now.
Shanahanigans
Footballguy
fantasy stud
Footballguy
Tom Brady's last playoff comeback was 2006
Lol at comparing career defensive DVOA when the years in question are Brady's SB years. When he, obviously, had a stud defense
And the argument that Manning has better weapons is misguided in this thread. Manning prefers continuity, but also makes it possible because he gets those guys so many stats.
Those guys are good, sure, but Manning seriously elevating/inflates their #s
And the argument that Manning has better weapons is misguided in this thread. Manning prefers continuity, but also makes it possible because he gets those guys so many stats.
Those guys are good, sure, but Manning seriously elevating/inflates their #s
fantasy stud
Footballguy
Well, no collapse today. Just a 400 yard error free performance to get to his 3rd super bowl
ghostguy123
Footballguy
So if they lose the super bowl is it a collapse?
fantasy stud
Footballguy
The haters will say yes, the supporters will say no.
Gandalf the Grey
Footballguy
SacramentoBob
Footballguy
630 yards and 4 TDs in 2 playoff games to lead his team to the Super Bowl.
32 Counter Pass
Footballguy
Does this mean Brady choked today?
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Andrew74
Footballguy
buck naked
Footballguy
I thoiught Brady looked pretty bad today, for Brady. He missed throws that BostonFred thinks makes him the best QB in history. Manning, on the other hand, was perfect.
bostonfred
Footballguy
Tip my cap, manning played a great game. Well played from beginning to end. That bomb to julius thomas was nails. Lots of missed opportunities for the patriots, and denver capitalized again and again. Wish that third down holding call hadn't happened - or that the patriots had tried the 57 yarder instead of punting - or that talib hadn't gotten hurt early - or that they hadn't gotten decimated by the pass rush on key plays, especially that 4th and 2. But it is what it is.
Brady missed some deep passes, and the receivers got almost zero yards after catch, while denvers receivers had room to spare on practically every play. The patriots used to have that, but the war of attrition finally caught up with them. I hope they can get brady some legit targets for the rest of his career, will be interesting to see if they make a play for decker in particular.
Brady missed some deep passes, and the receivers got almost zero yards after catch, while denvers receivers had room to spare on practically every play. The patriots used to have that, but the war of attrition finally caught up with them. I hope they can get brady some legit targets for the rest of his career, will be interesting to see if they make a play for decker in particular.
bostonfred
Footballguy
Wow, while I was posting that I see my name was brought up a few times. I stand by everything I posted - his past is his past and he had a great game today. I understand that people who disagree with me don't like me. I don't post what I post to be an internet villain, I just call it like I see it, but have at it. It was a fun day for a denver or manning fan.
ghostguy123
Footballguy
Gandalf the Grey
Footballguy
I agree. A superficial analysis might even suggest that Brady had difficulty with the pressure 2nd half of 4th quarter. Some might call that choking. Of course, any reasonable, intelligent, non homer fan would recognize that it's a team game and obviously Hall of Fame players still have ebb and flows in their game. The Maning as a playoff choker meme is so obviously flawed and has been rebutted on this forum pretty conclusively by guys like SSOG and others it's amazing some members continue to push that theme.
Brady is a great QB. As is Manning. Neither is a choker in any respect,there's just too many variables to evaluate. Any other conclusion is simple homerism.
fantasy stud
Footballguy
Very well said, 2 hall of the best ever.Gandalf the Grey said:
Larrywarren
Footballguy
Gandalf the Grey said:
dickey moe
Fingerpicker
LifeFail
lod01
Footballguy
:lmao; I'm piling on!. Guy is a post season bum. Where the hell was the Omaha?
What a choker
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FreeBaGeL
Footballguy
When "choke" and "collapse" are defined as not winning the Super Bowl on a team that would probably be about 15th best in the NFL with an average QB it's pretty easy for anyone to fall into that category.
Congratulations on betting the field and being right, as if that's some kind of accomplishment.
Congratulations on betting the field and being right, as if that's some kind of accomplishment.
bostonfred
Footballguy
Manning literally had his choice of teams in the nfl. Denver had just spent a first round pick on tebow and they begged him to come there. They had a defense, they had great receivers, and they added the best receiver from their biggest rival. But if they're 15th in the league without peyton, then peyton must be absolutely magical. I mean, that really puts his record setting performance in context - his records were individual accomplishments, because he had the best season ever with middle of the road talent around him.
But losing is still a team failure. I mean, obviously, it wasn't mannings fault. It was his mediocre, 15th best team that manning singlehandedly dragged to the playoffs.
But if that's the case, then mannings inability to control a bad snap on the safety, his two interceptions, his lost fumble, and his two fourth and twos that he failed to convert - those were all team mistakes? Or did manning actually have a bad individual game too?
Its not about whether he won or lost the game. He has losses where he played well and he has wins where he played terribly. Its about his consistent pattern of poor individual performances in the postseason that cost his team the game. He's thrown game ending interceptions in two of his last five postseasons. He had yet another pick six tonight. He's lost more games than anyone in postseason history.
You're setting up a straw man by jumping ahead of the criticism and saying that losing is not the same as choking. But nobody said he choked because he lost. Some people would say he lost because he choked. I don't like that word, but there's no question he had a bad individual game that led directly to his teams loss. And that has happened again and again throughout his otherwise brilliant career.
DropKick
Footballguy
I don't think Manning deserves the piling on but let's not say Denver is a middle of the pack team without him...
bostonfred
Footballguy
They won a playoff game with Tim Tebow, and they've added offensive talent since then while the young receivers (including Demaryius who was hurt for Tebow) now have a few years under their belt. Only 12 teams make it to the playoffs, only 8 make it to the second round, and Tebow is so far below average that he literally isn't playing anywhere now. Saying that they'd be 15th in the league with an average QB is a bit of a stretch.
Ghost Rider
Footballguy
The 2011 Broncos were not a top 8, or even top 12, team. They were an 8-8 team that only made the playoffs because the division was crappy that year, and then had an improbable wild card win before getting ##### slapped in the divisional round.
ghostguy123
Footballguy
Losing the most games in post season history isn't a bad thing. It means you have made the playoffs more than anyone else ever.
You can only lose one playoff game oer year ya know.
You can only lose one playoff game oer year ya know.
ghostguy123
Footballguy
Manning was bad today. The gameplan was stupid. Fumbles were terrible. Just one of those days.
Not one bronco played well.
Not one bronco played well.
shader
Footballguy
Manning played terrible. Again. In the playoffs.
Realistically, the choke thing is just a little jab at players we don't like that much. It's not necessarily a word that describes all his performances.
But the bottom line is that Peyton has had a very, very disappointing postseason career, and it tarnishes his legacy. The degree to which it tarnishes his legacy will be debated for the next 50 years. But I thjnk everyone can now agree that overall, he's been a disappointing post season player.
FreeBaGeL
Footballguy
Ah yes, how could I forget about that defense? The one that had just finished 26th in points allowed, had set the NFL record for most games giving up 40+ points, and gave up 6 TD passes in their last game before Peyton arrived.
Still, I won't argue with you that Denver was a poor choice by Peyton in free agency, and I said as much at the time. Another team molded similarly to the Colts, with a bad defense and a lack of players and especially coaches that could consistently pick the team up on days where Peyton wasn't playing great football.
I think if he'd chosen San Francisco we'd all be looking at him very differently right now. He would almost certainly be without the single season passing records he has, but I don't think it's a stretch to think he'd have a much easier time of picking up an extra ring or two there.
I'm not sure what the records have anything to do with it. Obviously if the goal is to set records then Peyton is in the perfect spot. Great receivers around him with bad running backs and a bad defense that means they have to keep scoring. Add an elite QB to that recipe and you get someone contending for NFL records whether that elite QB is Peyton, Brady, Brees, Rodgers, etc.
But that's not what we're talking about here, we're talking about winning and losing, and on that front the Broncos are very mediocre. A good group of receivers, which outside of Peyton is virtually the only place where the Broncos aren't below average, does not make an elite team on its own. If it did, then the Bears would have been 13-3 this year.
Obviously Manning had a bad game too, and I don't think I ever disputed that. Against a defense that many are now claiming is among the best ever, I don't think that's entirely unexpected or a huge crime. Who exactly has had a good game against them in the past few months?
The Broncos didn't get blown out to the extent they did because Peyton had a bad game. They got blown out because Peyton's bad game was about as good as anyone outside of maybe Demaryius Thomas (who had a fumble and a couple of bone headed runs of his own) on the team played. The tackles couldn't hold up the pass rush at all. Receivers couldn't get separation (Julius Thomas couldn't even get off the bump on the LoS all night). The defense was so bad it was actually more comical than any of the Super Bowl commercials at times. It was just a horrible, horrible effort all the way around. There's no quarterback that could have made that game competitive with the way they were getting outplayed at literally every single position on the field.
I do think it shows pretty plainly where your biases lie when you make statements like Peyton's "inability to control a bad snap" as if he had any prayer of even touching that football, much less the fumble on the 3-step drop on a play late when the DE's just completely T'd off on the tackles without ever giving Peyton a chance.
Ah yes, if only he had the wherewithall to throw his back breaking interceptions with three or four minutes left like Brady did in both the AFC championship and Super Bowl two years ago.
This is an absolutely horrid stat. He has a long career and has the ability to get almost any team into the postseason. He could literally have 7 Super Bowl rings and he'd still be among the all-time leaders in post season losses.
That's not even to mention that the list of quarterbacks with the most postseason losses is a proverbial who's who of all-time great quarterbacks. Young, Montanta, Marino, Brady, Favre, Manning. Winning it all once you've reached the playoffs is a low percentage play, especially on a team without a good defense. Good quarterbacks who get their teams into the playoffs often are going to naturally end up at the top of this list, especially when those quarterbacks consistently get in with no help from the other side of the football.
I'm not sure how I'm jumping ahead of anything when I was specifically responding to a post that was calling him a choker.
Regardless, I would in no way say that Peyton "cost his team the game". It's not like they give up 13 points and ran the ball well but Peyton couldn't do anything to capitalize on it. He didn't put the team on his back and win them a game where they were obviously overmatched at every position, but most seasons end like that for every QB except one. Whether Peyton played bad or mediocre or good has little to do with whether or not Denver won this game. It's not like this was a Anything less than "super hero" out of the QB was going to be a dominating loss in this one. There is no one in the league that would have completed the following sentence: "If only Denver had XXXXX playing QB tonight then they would have won this game".
His season ended on a bad game and a loss, something that happens multiple times in EVERY QBs career that consistently gets into the playoffs. It's not like he's the first QB to take a record setting offense into the postseason and eventually get overmatched. At least in this case it came against a defense that is considered probably the best of the most recent generation.
FreeBaGeL
Footballguy
I don't think there's any question that it has tarnished his legacy. The question is should it, at least to the overwhelming extent that it has?
I would be interested to see what other QB's post-season records are in seasons where they were playing with a defense ranked in the bottom half of the league, a stipulation that Peyton has had to play with virtually every year.
Run It Up
Footballguy
FreeBaGeL
Footballguy
Perhaps you guys can answer a few questions for me, given the theory that Peyton plays worse in the playoffs strictly because it's the playoffs.
1) If Denver played Seattle in week 14 of the regular season instead of in the Super Bowl, would Denver have won?
2) If Denver were to play Philadelphia (whom they beat in the regular season) in the Super Bowl, would they have lost?
3) Given that Peyton is awesome in the regular season and chokes in the playoffs, how did Denver beat San Diego in the playoffs, but lose to them in the regular season?
4) Given the same, how did Peyton play poorly and lose to New England in the regular season, but play great and beat them in the AFC championship?
1) If Denver played Seattle in week 14 of the regular season instead of in the Super Bowl, would Denver have won?
2) If Denver were to play Philadelphia (whom they beat in the regular season) in the Super Bowl, would they have lost?
3) Given that Peyton is awesome in the regular season and chokes in the playoffs, how did Denver beat San Diego in the playoffs, but lose to them in the regular season?
4) Given the same, how did Peyton play poorly and lose to New England in the regular season, but play great and beat them in the AFC championship?
The 2011 Broncos weren't just an 8-8 team. They scored 81 fewer points than they allowed, which ranked them 25th in the NFL. They had the second worst scoring differential of any playoff team in history, behind only (ironically enough) the 2010 Seattle Seahawks who snuck in with a 7-9 record. Those Seahawks also won a playoff game. Doesn't mean they weren't a crappy team.
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