Tracking the 2013-2014 Peyton Manning collapse (3 Viewers)

[BassNBrew]

I'm as big of a Manning apologist as there is, but there clearly is something wrong. 3 of 4 int's where clearly his fault last night, none more critical than the one with less than 4:00 that was returned for a TD. That one cost the game. That, IMO, was a function of throwing technique breaking down - he threw off of his back foot, while jumping. Very cutler-esque. For a QB of Manning's stature, I don't understand what happened here.

It's not arm strength, it's not decision making, it's fundamentals. If you could count on any QB to have solid fundamentals, I would have put my money on Peyton Manning.

Of course, arm strength makes up for flaws that all QB's have - I suppose that when the arm strength goes, it illuminates all of the underlying flaws.

For all of the (deserved) criticism, he did bring it in the third quarter: he was 12-16, 168 yards, 2 TD's (147.9 passer rating). He showed he can still execute at a high level, which makes the Q4 struggles even more perplexing.

Would Foxy focusing on the run and moving the team away from the passing attack caused Manning to become either rusty or out of sync with the receivers?

 

[shader]

I think the "something wrong" is that Peyton is getting old. This happens to everyone. There is no reason to expect Peyton to be different.

It's hard with Peyton because last year and in the early part of this year he put up yardage that would make you think he's in the prime of his career.

But he's not in the prime of his career. His balls float and flutter. He's getting by on his smarts.

I've rooted against Peyton Manning for 20 years. It's a built-in thing I do, ever since the Tennessee days.

But even so, you have to appreciate his career, and it's sad to me to see his skills declining. I can't believe I'm saying it, but I'll be rooting for him in the playoffs for the first time ever.

 

[thekidd2009]

It isn't the picks so much as it's the lack of zip on the ball. Everything Manning throws right now is a lob. He still has great touch but the fastball is nearly gone now.

Yea I agree, he's throwing floaters that take forever to get to the receivers. It seems like everything he does now is dependent on timing and if the timing is thrown off a little bit, he doesn't have the arm strength to zip it in there.

 

[The_Man]

I'm as big of a Manning apologist as there is, but there clearly is something wrong. 3 of 4 int's where clearly his fault last night, none more critical than the one with less than 4:00 that was returned for a TD. That one cost the game. That, IMO, was a function of throwing technique breaking down - he threw off of his back foot, while jumping. Very cutler-esque. For a QB of Manning's stature, I don't understand what happened here.

It's not arm strength, it's not decision making, it's fundamentals. If you could count on any QB to have solid fundamentals, I would have put my money on Peyton Manning.

Of course, arm strength makes up for flaws that all QB's have - I suppose that when the arm strength goes, it illuminates all of the underlying flaws.

Pressure on the QB is the great equalizer. Look at Brady on those rare games when he gets a lot of pressure - the Giants Super Bowls, various Ravens games, this week's Jets game. It's suddenly a lot tougher. Look at Mark Rypien the season he was sacked 9 times - he played like Peyton Manning. Manning got very jumpy by the end of the game - on the key interception, he saw Dunlap coming straight at him and he threw that horrible jump-pass.

LOL at Gruden blaming it on the WR for not being on the same page. He was exactly where he was supposed to be, but Manning had no prayer of getting the ball there.

 

[moleculo]

I'm as big of a Manning apologist as there is, but there clearly is something wrong. 3 of 4 int's where clearly his fault last night, none more critical than the one with less than 4:00 that was returned for a TD. That one cost the game. That, IMO, was a function of throwing technique breaking down - he threw off of his back foot, while jumping. Very cutler-esque. For a QB of Manning's stature, I don't understand what happened here.

It's not arm strength, it's not decision making, it's fundamentals. If you could count on any QB to have solid fundamentals, I would have put my money on Peyton Manning.

Of course, arm strength makes up for flaws that all QB's have - I suppose that when the arm strength goes, it illuminates all of the underlying flaws.

For all of the (deserved) criticism, he did bring it in the third quarter: he was 12-16, 168 yards, 2 TD's (147.9 passer rating). He showed he can still execute at a high level, which makes the Q4 struggles even more perplexing.

Would Foxy focusing on the run and moving the team away from the passing attack caused Manning to become either rusty or out of sync with the receivers?

The run-heavy bit isn't coming from Fox. I know your opinions of him from Carolina, but I don't think Fox has a preferred style. I think he is very pragmatic and tries to call games based on the strengths of his team. When your QB is Jake Delhomme or Rodney Peete, running the ball a lot is the way to go.

The run heavy offense comes from Elway. He asked Manning to "share the responsibilities", and directed Gase to "run the ball to win".

I don't believe the run heavy O has caused Manning or the WR's to get out of sync - they can turn it back on at will - see Q3 last night. The problem, IMO, is that Gase is terrible at blending the high-powered passing attack with the run-heavy Tebowesque offense. He has become very predictable in playcalling, and it puts Manning throwing out of bad situations.

 

[BassNBrew]

I'm as big of a Manning apologist as there is, but there clearly is something wrong. 3 of 4 int's where clearly his fault last night, none more critical than the one with less than 4:00 that was returned for a TD. That one cost the game. That, IMO, was a function of throwing technique breaking down - he threw off of his back foot, while jumping. Very cutler-esque. For a QB of Manning's stature, I don't understand what happened here.

It's not arm strength, it's not decision making, it's fundamentals. If you could count on any QB to have solid fundamentals, I would have put my money on Peyton Manning.

Of course, arm strength makes up for flaws that all QB's have - I suppose that when the arm strength goes, it illuminates all of the underlying flaws.

For all of the (deserved) criticism, he did bring it in the third quarter: he was 12-16, 168 yards, 2 TD's (147.9 passer rating). He showed he can still execute at a high level, which makes the Q4 struggles even more perplexing.

Would Foxy focusing on the run and moving the team away from the passing attack caused Manning to become either rusty or out of sync with the receivers?

The run-heavy bit isn't coming from Fox. I know your opinions of him from Carolina, but I don't think Fox has a preferred style. I think he is very pragmatic and tries to call games based on the strengths of his team. When your QB is Jake Delhomme or Rodney Peete, running the ball a lot is the way to go.

The run heavy offense comes from Elway. He asked Manning to "share the responsibilities", and directed Gase to "run the ball to win".

I don't believe the run heavy O has caused Manning or the WR's to get out of sync - they can turn it back on at will - see Q3 last night. The problem, IMO, is that Gase is terrible at blending the high-powered passing attack with the run-heavy Tebowesque offense. He has become very predictable in playcalling, and it puts Manning throwing out of bad situations.

So basically Fox is a figurehead.

Peyton's decline happen right around the time they became run focused. What happened to Welker? Where did JT go?

 

[NE_REVIVAL]

I'm as big of a Manning apologist as there is, but there clearly is something wrong. 3 of 4 int's where clearly his fault last night, none more critical than the one with less than 4:00 that was returned for a TD. That one cost the game. That, IMO, was a function of throwing technique breaking down - he threw off of his back foot, while jumping. Very cutler-esque. For a QB of Manning's stature, I don't understand what happened here.

It's not arm strength, it's not decision making, it's fundamentals. If you could count on any QB to have solid fundamentals, I would have put my money on Peyton Manning.

Of course, arm strength makes up for flaws that all QB's have - I suppose that when the arm strength goes, it illuminates all of the underlying flaws.

Pressure on the QB is the great equalizer. Look at Brady on those rare games when he gets a lot of pressure - the Giants Super Bowls, various Ravens games, this week's Jets game. It's suddenly a lot tougher. Look at Mark Rypien the season he was sacked 9 times - he played like Peyton Manning. Manning got very jumpy by the end of the game - on the key interception, he saw Dunlap coming straight at him and he threw that horrible jump-pass.

LOL at Gruden blaming it on the WR for not being on the same page. He was exactly where he was supposed to be, but Manning had no prayer of getting the ball there.

Agreed, the wr was well covered. I think Manning was trying to loft it over them and just didn't get anything on it. Brady tried similar on 2 occasions this year trying to get it to Gronk and got the same result (though neither were game killers iirc). Imo he has lost a lot of arm strength, but he can still be very effective against most teams on most nights, he just doesn't have the margin for error he used to.

 

[moleculo]

I'm as big of a Manning apologist as there is, but there clearly is something wrong. 3 of 4 int's where clearly his fault last night, none more critical than the one with less than 4:00 that was returned for a TD. That one cost the game. That, IMO, was a function of throwing technique breaking down - he threw off of his back foot, while jumping. Very cutler-esque. For a QB of Manning's stature, I don't understand what happened here.

It's not arm strength, it's not decision making, it's fundamentals. If you could count on any QB to have solid fundamentals, I would have put my money on Peyton Manning.

Of course, arm strength makes up for flaws that all QB's have - I suppose that when the arm strength goes, it illuminates all of the underlying flaws.

For all of the (deserved) criticism, he did bring it in the third quarter: he was 12-16, 168 yards, 2 TD's (147.9 passer rating). He showed he can still execute at a high level, which makes the Q4 struggles even more perplexing.

Would Foxy focusing on the run and moving the team away from the passing attack caused Manning to become either rusty or out of sync with the receivers?

The run-heavy bit isn't coming from Fox. I know your opinions of him from Carolina, but I don't think Fox has a preferred style. I think he is very pragmatic and tries to call games based on the strengths of his team. When your QB is Jake Delhomme or Rodney Peete, running the ball a lot is the way to go.

The run heavy offense comes from Elway. He asked Manning to "share the responsibilities", and directed Gase to "run the ball to win".

I don't believe the run heavy O has caused Manning or the WR's to get out of sync - they can turn it back on at will - see Q3 last night. The problem, IMO, is that Gase is terrible at blending the high-powered passing attack with the run-heavy Tebowesque offense. He has become very predictable in playcalling, and it puts Manning throwing out of bad situations.

So basically Fox is a figurehead.

Peyton's decline happen right around the time they became run focused. What happened to Welker? Where did JT go?

pretty much, yeah. From what I understand, he does lots of delegation and direction but isn't all that involved in the minutae. He still struggles with play-clock usage, challenges, etc.

Welker has been a non-factor since his pre-season concussion, I think age has caught up to him as well. JT has ankles made of glass, apparently. Bad ankles is what ruined his first two seasons, and has had ankle issues this year.

The Broncos have been trying to force the run since day one. When they struggled early in the season, the blame was on the OL (Clark at RT and Ramirez @ C specifically), and JT for being a terrible blocker (remember Shannon Sharpe calling him out?). They shuffled around the OK (as Gruden was harping on last night) to improve the run game, and they began playing Virgil Green a lot more. It still wasn't working well, so they started using a jumbo package as base with 6 OL and 2 TE. That got the running game kick-started, but the passing game suffered as a result.

Elway knows that this team has to be two dimensional to get where they want to go. Gase has been terrible at this - this team is not two dimensional, they are more like two one-dimensional teams. The run game and pass game have not been blended at all.

 

[Dizzy]

I think the "something wrong" is that Peyton is getting old. This happens to everyone. There is no reason to expect Peyton to be different.

Sign me up for this one. Reminds of that line from Moneyball:

“We’re all told at some point in time that we can no longer play the children’s game. Some of us are told at 18, some of us are told at 40. But we’re all told."

I honestly feel that the move towards run-heavy is Elway's influence. He knows exactly what enabled him to walk away with two rings on his fingers. Manning has had the best football IQ in the NFL for quite a while now, but last night looked a little like shades of Dan Marino during his final season. Old dogs have tendencies of their own and once DC's can recognize and flip their own safety blankets onto them, the end is near.

 

[lod01]

So basically Fox is a figurehead.

Peyton's decline happen right around the time they became run focused. What happened to Welker? Where did JT go?

pretty much, yeah. From what I understand, he does lots of delegation and direction but isn't all that involved in the minutae. He still struggles with play-clock usage, challenges, etc.

Fox is definitely along for the ride and the ride is nearing the end. He's an incompetent boob of a HC. He took a powerhouse run team in Carolina with Williams and Stewart in 2008 and got cute with it in 2009 & 2010. It totally blew up in his face when he started substituting every play instead of every series. He was the HC so even if it was the OC's idea, he was dumb enough to agree to go away from what was working fantastically.

He lucked into getting Manning as his QB. Manning called all the shots. Right now Manning knows he has little left and the only way they win it all is with a strong running game. He will leave the NFL as a 1 time SB champ. Fox will be fired a year or 2 later.

 

[BassNBrew]

I think the "something wrong" is that Peyton is getting old. This happens to everyone. There is no reason to expect Peyton to be different.

Sign me up for this one. Reminds of that line from Moneyball:

“We’re all told at some point in time that we can no longer play the children’s game. Some of us are told at 18, some of us are told at 40. But we’re all told."

I honestly feel that the move towards run-heavy is Elway's influence. He knows exactly what enabled him to walk away with two rings on his fingers. Manning has had the best football IQ in the NFL for quite a while now, but last night looked a little like shades of Dan Marino during his final season. Old dogs have tendencies of their own and once DC's can recognize and flip their own safety blankets onto them, the end is near.

I don't think you just fall off the cliff mid-season unless you are injured.

 

[shader]

So basically Fox is a figurehead.

Peyton's decline happen right around the time they became run focused. What happened to Welker? Where did JT go?

pretty much, yeah. From what I understand, he does lots of delegation and direction but isn't all that involved in the minutae. He still struggles with play-clock usage, challenges, etc.

Fox is definitely along for the ride and the ride is nearing the end. He's an incompetent boob of a HC. He took a powerhouse run team in Carolina with Williams and Stewart in 2008 and got cute with it in 2009 & 2010. It totally blew up in his face when he started substituting every play instead of every series. He was the HC so even if it was the OC's idea, he was dumb enough to agree to go away from what was working fantastically.

He lucked into getting Manning as his QB. Manning called all the shots. Right now Manning knows he has little left and the only way they win it all is with a strong running game. He will leave the NFL as a 1 time SB champ. Fox will be fired a year or 2 later.

I agree that Fox is a horrible offensive mind. I'm not of the opinion that he's doing a lot of offensive scheming right now. Is this not the case?

 

[Kool-Aid Larry]

Manning looked like he was taking more heat than i would've expected.

I wonder if that kind of thing is throwing him off his game.

Anyway, wouldn't worry too much about it until he's back at his personal house of horrors

 

[Hu-Tang Clan]

His balls float and flutter.

 

[flapgreen]

His balls float and flutter.

It's been years since mine have done that.

 

[moleculo]

weird. looks like a misstep on his plant foot, causing the jump-pass which was intercepted and returned, putting the game away.

 

[Neofight]

weird. looks like a misstep on his plant foot, causing the jump-pass which was intercepted and returned, putting the game away.

That is strange looking. Could be the rain, but I'm thinking it had more to do with the thigh injury; his whole leg looked to be in an awkward position on that throw.

 

[Ghost Rider]

What's funny is, despite his recent struggles, Peyton still leads the league in TD passes, and is 5th in YPA, 4th in passer rating and 3rd in QBR. I guess it shows how awesome Peyton is when a season like that is being called by some to be not that great.

 

[General Tso]

weird. looks like a misstep on his plant foot, causing the jump-pass which was intercepted and returned, putting the game away.

That is strange looking. Could be the rain, but I'm thinking it had more to do with the thigh injury; his whole leg looked to be in an awkward position on that throw.

Agree. That looks like an injury.

 

[Dizzy]

What's funny is, despite his recent struggles, Peyton still leads the league in TD passes, and is 5th in YPA, 4th in passer rating and 3rd in QBR. I guess it shows how awesome Peyton is when a season like that is being called by some to be not that great.

That depends what you're gauging against. Sure, Jets fans would love to have these Peyton problems, but there is only one goal in Denver. And the question is not whether Peyton's stats are awesome, but whether they can win the Super Bowl.

If I were a Bronco's fan, I would rather see the less-than-average games earlier in the season (as opposed to now/lately)... now is when you would like to see them firing on all cylinders.

 

[Dizzy]

I think the "something wrong" is that Peyton is getting old. This happens to everyone. There is no reason to expect Peyton to be different.

Sign me up for this one. Reminds of that line from Moneyball:

“We’re all told at some point in time that we can no longer play the children’s game. Some of us are told at 18, some of us are told at 40. But we’re all told."

I honestly feel that the move towards run-heavy is Elway's influence. He knows exactly what enabled him to walk away with two rings on his fingers. Manning has had the best football IQ in the NFL for quite a while now, but last night looked a little like shades of Dan Marino during his final season. Old dogs have tendencies of their own and once DC's can recognize and flip their own safety blankets onto them, the end is near.

I don't think you just fall off the cliff mid-season unless you are injured.

He hasn't fallen off the cliff, he's just playing sub par lately by his own lofty standards.

He may be injured... we already know that he's old... bad combination when competition is about to ramp up in January.

 

[Niles Standish]

I think the "something wrong" is that Peyton is getting old. This happens to everyone. There is no reason to expect Peyton to be different.

Sign me up for this one. Reminds of that line from Moneyball:

“We’re all told at some point in time that we can no longer play the children’s game. Some of us are told at 18, some of us are told at 40. But we’re all told."

I honestly feel that the move towards run-heavy is Elway's influence. He knows exactly what enabled him to walk away with two rings on his fingers. Manning has had the best football IQ in the NFL for quite a while now, but last night looked a little like shades of Dan Marino during his final season. Old dogs have tendencies of their own and once DC's can recognize and flip their own safety blankets onto them, the end is near.

I don't think you just fall off the cliff mid-season unless you are injured.

He hasn't fallen off the cliff, he's just playing sub par lately by his own lofty standards.

He may be injured... we already know that he's old... bad combination when competition is about to ramp up in January.

Over the last 4 games he has averaged 225 yards 1.25 TDs and 1.5 INTs per game. That would be good for 3600 yds 20 TDs and 24 INTs over an entire season. Those are stats that could get a QB benched. Now that's obviously not the whole story, but you're downplaying his struggles quite a bit.

 

[moleculo]

I think the "something wrong" is that Peyton is getting old. This happens to everyone. There is no reason to expect Peyton to be different.

Sign me up for this one. Reminds of that line from Moneyball:

Were all told at some point in time that we can no longer play the childrens game. Some of us are told at 18, some of us are told at 40. But were all told."

I honestly feel that the move towards run-heavy is Elway's influence. He knows exactly what enabled him to walk away with two rings on his fingers. Manning has had the best football IQ in the NFL for quite a while now, but last night looked a little like shades of Dan Marino during his final season. Old dogs have tendencies of their own and once DC's can recognize and flip their own safety blankets onto them, the end is near.

I don't think you just fall off the cliff mid-season unless you are injured.

He hasn't fallen off the cliff, he's just playing sub par lately by his own lofty standards.

He may be injured... we already know that he's old... bad combination when competition is about to ramp up in January.

Over the last 4 games he has averaged 225 yards 1.25 TDs and 1.5 INTs per game. That would be good for 3600 yds 20 TDs and 24 INTs over an entire season. Those are stats that could get a QB benched. Now that's obviously not the whole story, but you're downplaying his struggles quite a bit.

But, his team was 3-1 over that stretch, against 4 teams fighting for their playoff lives, including 3 of the top 6 pass D's in the league.Just sayin'... The statistical downturn is overplayed. It's a poor stretch of play that,unfortunately fits all too well with a predefined narrative. Everyone wants to see the collapse... and when we see a tough stretch, we confirm what our bias suspects already.

 

[Slapdash]

I think the "something wrong" is that Peyton is getting old. This happens to everyone. There is no reason to expect Peyton to be different.

Peyton's late/post season collapses have been happening for a long time.

 

[FreeBaGeL]

I think the "something wrong" is that Peyton is getting old. This happens to everyone. There is no reason to expect Peyton to be different.

Peyton's late/post season collapses have been happening for a long time.

2013's last 4 games:

3-1, 10td, 1int

2012's last 4 games

4-0, 8td, 2int

2011's last 4 games

4-0, 9td, 2int

And so on...

But don't worry, I get it. For the people that don't like Manning, any game or stretch where he plays poorly is now a "big game" or "clutch" or a "collapse". He can throw for 400 yards and 3 TDs in the AFC Championship game against New England like he did last year, but all of the sudden the "big games" are the regular season games against New England that he lost. The same regular season games that the anti-Manning crowd used to deem "worthless" when he played well in them.

And now we've stretched it out to the end of the regular season. Which is suddenly super important because, for the first time in a long time, Peyton isn't playing awesome in those games. So now those games are big games where you either rise up to the occasion or choke and collapse. But prior to this year those games weren't important because Manning was playing well in them, so they don't count as playing well in important games. Neither does playing well in any playoff game except the one that he doesn't play well in, of course. The other ones weren't important.

I swear if Peyton sucked in week 5 two years in a row you guys would suddenly decide that week 5 is the most important game of the season and he choked or collapsed in those "big games".

 

[Niles Standish]

I think the "something wrong" is that Peyton is getting old. This happens to everyone. There is no reason to expect Peyton to be different.

Sign me up for this one. Reminds of that line from Moneyball:Were all told at some point in time that we can no longer play the childrens game. Some of us are told at 18, some of us are told at 40. But were all told."

I honestly feel that the move towards run-heavy is Elway's influence. He knows exactly what enabled him to walk away with two rings on his fingers. Manning has had the best football IQ in the NFL for quite a while now, but last night looked a little like shades of Dan Marino during his final season. Old dogs have tendencies of their own and once DC's can recognize and flip their own safety blankets onto them, the end is near.

I don't think you just fall off the cliff mid-season unless you are injured.

He hasn't fallen off the cliff, he's just playing sub par lately by his own lofty standards.

He may be injured... we already know that he's old... bad combination when competition is about to ramp up in January.

Over the last 4 games he has averaged 225 yards 1.25 TDs and 1.5 INTs per game. That would be good for 3600 yds 20 TDs and 24 INTs over an entire season. Those are stats that could get a QB benched. Now that's obviously not the whole story, but you're downplaying his struggles quite a bit.

But, his team was 3-1 over that stretch, against 4 teams fighting for their playoff lives, including 3 of the top 6 pass D's in the league.Just sayin'... The statistical downturn is overplayed. It's a poor stretch of play that,unfortunately fits all too well with a predefined narrative. Everyone wants to see the collapse... and when we see a tough stretch, we confirm what our bias suspects already.

Great D and a great running game helped in those 3 wins. I'm not saying he should be benched, that would be absurd. But he's playing badly now. I think he's hurt, and think he still has another 2 or 3 years as one of the best QBs in the league. That being said his play the last 4 weeks is bad. Not bad by his standards. Just bad.

 

[Ghost Rider]

I think the "something wrong" is that Peyton is getting old. This happens to everyone. There is no reason to expect Peyton to be different.

Peyton's late/post season collapses have been happening for a long time.

2013's last 4 games:

3-1, 10td, 1int

2012's last 4 games

4-0, 8td, 2int

2011's last 4 games

4-0, 9td, 2int

And so on...

But don't worry, I get it. For the people that don't like Manning, any game or stretch where he plays poorly is now a "big game" or "clutch" or a "collapse". He can throw for 400 yards and 3 TDs in the AFC Championship game against New England like he did last year, but all of the sudden the "big games" are the regular season games against New England that he lost. The same regular season games that the anti-Manning crowd used to deem "worthless" when he played well in them.

And now we've stretched it out to the end of the regular season. Which is suddenly super important because, for the first time in a long time, Peyton isn't playing awesome in those games. So now those games are big games where you either rise up to the occasion or choke and collapse. But prior to this year those games weren't important because Manning was playing well in them, so they don't count as playing well in important games. Neither does playing well in any playoff game except the one that he doesn't play well in, of course. The other ones weren't important.

I swear if Peyton sucked in week 5 two years in a row you guys would suddenly decide that week 5 is the most important game of the season and he choked or collapsed in those "big games".

I think the "something wrong" is that Peyton is getting old. This happens to everyone. There is no reason to expect Peyton to be different.

Sign me up for this one. Reminds of that line from Moneyball:Were all told at some point in time that we can no longer play the childrens game. Some of us are told at 18, some of us are told at 40. But were all told."

I honestly feel that the move towards run-heavy is Elway's influence. He knows exactly what enabled him to walk away with two rings on his fingers. Manning has had the best football IQ in the NFL for quite a while now, but last night looked a little like shades of Dan Marino during his final season. Old dogs have tendencies of their own and once DC's can recognize and flip their own safety blankets onto them, the end is near.

I don't think you just fall off the cliff mid-season unless you are injured.

He hasn't fallen off the cliff, he's just playing sub par lately by his own lofty standards.

He may be injured... we already know that he's old... bad combination when competition is about to ramp up in January.

Over the last 4 games he has averaged 225 yards 1.25 TDs and 1.5 INTs per game. That would be good for 3600 yds 20 TDs and 24 INTs over an entire season. Those are stats that could get a QB benched. Now that's obviously not the whole story, but you're downplaying his struggles quite a bit.

But, his team was 3-1 over that stretch, against 4 teams fighting for their playoff lives, including 3 of the top 6 pass D's in the league.Just sayin'... The statistical downturn is overplayed. It's a poor stretch of play that,unfortunately fits all too well with a predefined narrative. Everyone wants to see the collapse... and when we see a tough stretch, we confirm what our bias suspects already.

Great D and a great running game helped in those 3 wins. I'm not saying he should be benched, that would be absurd. But he's playing badly now. I think he's hurt, and think he still has another 2 or 3 years as one of the best QBs in the league. That being said his play the last 4 weeks is bad. Not bad by his standards. Just bad.

In Week 15 against the Chargers, Peyton Manning had the highest QBR for the week.

Yet his play the last four weeks is "bad"? Okay.

 

[moleculo]

I think the "something wrong" is that Peyton is getting old. This happens to everyone. There is no reason to expect Peyton to be different.

Sign me up for this one. Reminds of that line from Moneyball:Were all told at some point in time that we can no longer play the childrens game. Some of us are told at 18, some of us are told at 40. But were all told."

I honestly feel that the move towards run-heavy is Elway's influence. He knows exactly what enabled him to walk away with two rings on his fingers. Manning has had the best football IQ in the NFL for quite a while now, but last night looked a little like shades of Dan Marino during his final season. Old dogs have tendencies of their own and once DC's can recognize and flip their own safety blankets onto them, the end is near.

I don't think you just fall off the cliff mid-season unless you are injured.

He hasn't fallen off the cliff, he's just playing sub par lately by his own lofty standards.

He may be injured... we already know that he's old... bad combination when competition is about to ramp up in January.

Over the last 4 games he has averaged 225 yards 1.25 TDs and 1.5 INTs per game. That would be good for 3600 yds 20 TDs and 24 INTs over an entire season. Those are stats that could get a QB benched. Now that's obviously not the whole story, but you're downplaying his struggles quite a bit.

But, his team was 3-1 over that stretch, against 4 teams fighting for their playoff lives, including 3 of the top 6 pass D's in the league.Just sayin'... The statistical downturn is overplayed. It's a poor stretch of play that,unfortunately fits all too well with a predefined narrative. Everyone wants to see the collapse... and when we see a tough stretch, we confirm what our bias suspects already.

Great D and a great running game helped in those 3 wins. I'm not saying he should be benched, that would be absurd. But he's playing badly now. I think he's hurt, and think he still has another 2 or 3 years as one of the best QBs in the league. That being said his play the last 4 weeks is bad. Not bad by his standards. Just bad.

no, his play has not been bad for 4 games. His play has been bad for one quarter - a quarter played on the road, in frozen rain, against a team fighting for a playoff spot.

in Q4 vs Cincy, Manning was 7-14, 55 yards, 0 TD, 3 int (QB rating = 20.5). Prior to entering Q4, his stats for the Cincy game was 14-37,256 yard, 2 td, 0 int (QB rating = 80.5). Not great, not terrible.

His composite 4 game total excluding Q4 is 111-59, 811 yards, 5 TD, 3 int (QB rating = 81.7) pro-rated over 16 games = 252-474, 3588, 21 TD, 13 int. These numbers are good for a QB in a run first system, but not to Manning's lofty expectations.

Now, I believe the decline in numbers evident here is a result of playcalling (read my earlier rant about Gase in this thread). Within the new offense, Manning is mostly asked to throw on third and long, or when the team is trailing. The D knows when he will be throwing, this would hurt any QB's numbers.

[SIZE=14.3999996185303px]My point is that when you are looking at small sample sizes, individual samples can have a large effect on what you are looking at. His terrible Q4 on Monday really hurts any numbers including that stretch. outside of Q4, his numbers haven't been all that bad, especially when you consider the Broncos were 3-1 over the 4 game stretch you are examining.[/SIZE]

 

[massraider]

One four interception game definitely makes a four game stretch look bad on average. How about from week 12 to 15? Are his numbers still the numbers of a QB that gets benched?

One game. Bad game, nationally televised. Still only one game.

 

[Niles Standish]

I think the "something wrong" is that Peyton is getting old. This happens to everyone. There is no reason to expect Peyton to be different.

Sign me up for this one. Reminds of that line from Moneyball:Were all told at some point in time that we can no longer play the childrens game. Some of us are told at 18, some of us are told at 40. But were all told."

I honestly feel that the move towards run-heavy is Elway's influence. He knows exactly what enabled him to walk away with two rings on his fingers. Manning has had the best football IQ in the NFL for quite a while now, but last night looked a little like shades of Dan Marino during his final season. Old dogs have tendencies of their own and once DC's can recognize and flip their own safety blankets onto them, the end is near.

I don't think you just fall off the cliff mid-season unless you are injured.

He hasn't fallen off the cliff, he's just playing sub par lately by his own lofty standards.

He may be injured... we already know that he's old... bad combination when competition is about to ramp up in January.

Over the last 4 games he has averaged 225 yards 1.25 TDs and 1.5 INTs per game. That would be good for 3600 yds 20 TDs and 24 INTs over an entire season. Those are stats that could get a QB benched. Now that's obviously not the whole story, but you're downplaying his struggles quite a bit.

But, his team was 3-1 over that stretch, against 4 teams fighting for their playoff lives, including 3 of the top 6 pass D's in the league.Just sayin'... The statistical downturn is overplayed. It's a poor stretch of play that,unfortunately fits all too well with a predefined narrative. Everyone wants to see the collapse... and when we see a tough stretch, we confirm what our bias suspects already.

Great D and a great running game helped in those 3 wins. I'm not saying he should be benched, that would be absurd. But he's playing badly now. I think he's hurt, and think he still has another 2 or 3 years as one of the best QBs in the league. That being said his play the last 4 weeks is bad. Not bad by his standards. Just bad.

no, his play has not been bad for 4 games. His play has been bad for one quarter - a quarter played on the road, in frozen rain, against a team fighting for a playoff spot.

in Q4 vs Cincy, Manning was 7-14, 55 yards, 0 TD, 3 int (QB rating = 20.5). Prior to entering Q4, his stats for the Cincy game was 14-37,256 yard, 2 td, 0 int (QB rating = 80.5). Not great, not terrible.

His composite 4 game total excluding Q4 is 111-59, 811 yards, 5 TD, 3 int (QB rating = 81.7) pro-rated over 16 games = 252-474, 3588, 21 TD, 13 int. These numbers are good for a QB in a run first system, but not to Manning's lofty expectations.

Now, I believe the decline in numbers evident here is a result of playcalling (read my earlier rant about Gase in this thread). Within the new offense, Manning is mostly asked to throw on third and long, or when the team is trailing. The D knows when he will be throwing, this would hurt any QB's numbers.

[SIZE=14.39px]My point is that when you are looking at small sample sizes, individual samples can have a large effect on what you are looking at. His terrible Q4 on Monday really hurts any numbers including that stretch. outside of Q4, his numbers haven't been all that bad, especially when you consider the Broncos were 3-1 over the 4 game stretch you are examining.[/SIZE]

So we're going to ignore his bad quarter but not ignore the whole game? That's really stretching hard to make his numbers look alright.

If you want to ignore his bad game fine. Then over a 3 game stretch Peyton has 585 yards 3 tds 2 ints. That over a 16 game season would be 3120 yds, 16 TDs, 11 INTs. Those are bad numbers. And that is ignoring his bad game. I'm not doubting his ability, but he's playing bad right now. Tom Brady played bad games 1-4.

 

[moleculo]

I think the "something wrong" is that Peyton is getting old. This happens to everyone. There is no reason to expect Peyton to be different.

Sign me up for this one. Reminds of that line from Moneyball:Were all told at some point in time that we can no longer play the childrens game. Some of us are told at 18, some of us are told at 40. But were all told."

I honestly feel that the move towards run-heavy is Elway's influence. He knows exactly what enabled him to walk away with two rings on his fingers. Manning has had the best football IQ in the NFL for quite a while now, but last night looked a little like shades of Dan Marino during his final season. Old dogs have tendencies of their own and once DC's can recognize and flip their own safety blankets onto them, the end is near.

I don't think you just fall off the cliff mid-season unless you are injured.

He hasn't fallen off the cliff, he's just playing sub par lately by his own lofty standards.

He may be injured... we already know that he's old... bad combination when competition is about to ramp up in January.

Over the last 4 games he has averaged 225 yards 1.25 TDs and 1.5 INTs per game. That would be good for 3600 yds 20 TDs and 24 INTs over an entire season. Those are stats that could get a QB benched. Now that's obviously not the whole story, but you're downplaying his struggles quite a bit.

But, his team was 3-1 over that stretch, against 4 teams fighting for their playoff lives, including 3 of the top 6 pass D's in the league.Just sayin'... The statistical downturn is overplayed. It's a poor stretch of play that,unfortunately fits all too well with a predefined narrative. Everyone wants to see the collapse... and when we see a tough stretch, we confirm what our bias suspects already.

Great D and a great running game helped in those 3 wins. I'm not saying he should be benched, that would be absurd. But he's playing badly now. I think he's hurt, and think he still has another 2 or 3 years as one of the best QBs in the league. That being said his play the last 4 weeks is bad. Not bad by his standards. Just bad.

no, his play has not been bad for 4 games. His play has been bad for one quarter - a quarter played on the road, in frozen rain, against a team fighting for a playoff spot.

in Q4 vs Cincy, Manning was 7-14, 55 yards, 0 TD, 3 int (QB rating = 20.5). Prior to entering Q4, his stats for the Cincy game was 14-37,256 yard, 2 td, 0 int (QB rating = 80.5). Not great, not terrible.

His composite 4 game total excluding Q4 is 111-59, 811 yards, 5 TD, 3 int (QB rating = 81.7) pro-rated over 16 games = 252-474, 3588, 21 TD, 13 int. These numbers are good for a QB in a run first system, but not to Manning's lofty expectations.

Now, I believe the decline in numbers evident here is a result of playcalling (read my earlier rant about Gase in this thread). Within the new offense, Manning is mostly asked to throw on third and long, or when the team is trailing. The D knows when he will be throwing, this would hurt any QB's numbers.

[SIZE=14.39px]My point is that when you are looking at small sample sizes, individual samples can have a large effect on what you are looking at. His terrible Q4 on Monday really hurts any numbers including that stretch. outside of Q4, his numbers haven't been all that bad, especially when you consider the Broncos were 3-1 over the 4 game stretch you are examining.[/SIZE]

So we're going to ignore his bad quarter but not ignore the whole game? That's really stretching hard to make his numbers look alright.

If you want to ignore his bad game fine. Then over a 3 game stretch Peyton has 585 yards 3 tds 2 ints. That over a 16 game season would be 3120 yds, 16 TDs, 11 INTs. Those are bad numbers. And that is ignoring his bad game. I'm not doubting his ability, but he's playing bad right now. Tom Brady played bad games 1-4.

you bolded my point, yet still missed it.

I'm not ignoring his bad game. One bad quarter made his 4 game aggregate numbers look bad. This is the folly of trying to extrapolate small sample sizes.

[SIZE=14.3999996185303px]Don't make too much of the numbers being down. This isn't fantasy football, we are talking about here. The Broncos are winning (CIN game excluded), they are still scoring high on a per-drive basis, and Mannings numbers are still good on a per-pass basis. [/SIZE]

So you want to look at a three game stretch...those 3 games were against KC, BUF, and SD...the #2, #3, and #6 pass defenses in the league, which the Broncos all won (convincingly, I might add, holding a double digit lead in the 4th quarter), and one of which Manning was sick to the point of needing 4 IV's the night before the game.

 

[Niles Standish]

I think the "something wrong" is that Peyton is getting old. This happens to everyone. There is no reason to expect Peyton to be different.

Sign me up for this one. Reminds of that line from Moneyball:Were all told at some point in time that we can no longer play the childrens game. Some of us are told at 18, some of us are told at 40. But were all told."

I honestly feel that the move towards run-heavy is Elway's influence. He knows exactly what enabled him to walk away with two rings on his fingers. Manning has had the best football IQ in the NFL for quite a while now, but last night looked a little like shades of Dan Marino during his final season. Old dogs have tendencies of their own and once DC's can recognize and flip their own safety blankets onto them, the end is near.

I don't think you just fall off the cliff mid-season unless you are injured.

He hasn't fallen off the cliff, he's just playing sub par lately by his own lofty standards.

He may be injured... we already know that he's old... bad combination when competition is about to ramp up in January.

Over the last 4 games he has averaged 225 yards 1.25 TDs and 1.5 INTs per game. That would be good for 3600 yds 20 TDs and 24 INTs over an entire season. Those are stats that could get a QB benched. Now that's obviously not the whole story, but you're downplaying his struggles quite a bit.

But, his team was 3-1 over that stretch, against 4 teams fighting for their playoff lives, including 3 of the top 6 pass D's in the league.Just sayin'... The statistical downturn is overplayed. It's a poor stretch of play that,unfortunately fits all too well with a predefined narrative. Everyone wants to see the collapse... and when we see a tough stretch, we confirm what our bias suspects already.

Great D and a great running game helped in those 3 wins. I'm not saying he should be benched, that would be absurd. But he's playing badly now. I think he's hurt, and think he still has another 2 or 3 years as one of the best QBs in the league. That being said his play the last 4 weeks is bad. Not bad by his standards. Just bad.

no, his play has not been bad for 4 games. His play has been bad for one quarter - a quarter played on the road, in frozen rain, against a team fighting for a playoff spot.

in Q4 vs Cincy, Manning was 7-14, 55 yards, 0 TD, 3 int (QB rating = 20.5). Prior to entering Q4, his stats for the Cincy game was 14-37,256 yard, 2 td, 0 int (QB rating = 80.5). Not great, not terrible.

His composite 4 game total excluding Q4 is 111-59, 811 yards, 5 TD, 3 int (QB rating = 81.7) pro-rated over 16 games = 252-474, 3588, 21 TD, 13 int. These numbers are good for a QB in a run first system, but not to Manning's lofty expectations.

Now, I believe the decline in numbers evident here is a result of playcalling (read my earlier rant about Gase in this thread). Within the new offense, Manning is mostly asked to throw on third and long, or when the team is trailing. The D knows when he will be throwing, this would hurt any QB's numbers.

[SIZE=14.39px]My point is that when you are looking at small sample sizes, individual samples can have a large effect on what you are looking at. His terrible Q4 on Monday really hurts any numbers including that stretch. outside of Q4, his numbers haven't been all that bad, especially when you consider the Broncos were 3-1 over the 4 game stretch you are examining.[/SIZE]

So we're going to ignore his bad quarter but not ignore the whole game? That's really stretching hard to make his numbers look alright.

If you want to ignore his bad game fine. Then over a 3 game stretch Peyton has 585 yards 3 tds 2 ints. That over a 16 game season would be 3120 yds, 16 TDs, 11 INTs. Those are bad numbers. And that is ignoring his bad game. I'm not doubting his ability, but he's playing bad right now. Tom Brady played bad games 1-4.

you bolded my point, yet still missed it.

I'm not ignoring his bad game. One bad quarter made his 4 game aggregate numbers look bad. This is the folly of trying to extrapolate small sample sizes.

[SIZE=14.39px]Don't make too much of the numbers being down. This isn't fantasy football, we are talking about here. The Broncos are winning (CIN game excluded), they are still scoring high on a per-drive basis, and Mannings numbers are still good on a per-pass basis. [/SIZE]

So you want to look at a three game stretch...those 3 games were against KC, BUF, and SD...the #2, #3, and #6 pass defenses in the league, which the Broncos all won (convincingly, I might add, holding a double digit lead in the 4th quarter), and one of which Manning was sick to the point of needing 4 IV's the night before the game.

You bolded your point, I did not. I copied/pasted and did not format your text at all.

Look, you probably know the Broncos a lot better than me. I am not a fan, but I live in the city am a season ticket holder and watch more often than not. I'm not a fan, I'm a transplant. So I don't follow them that closely when it gets right down to it. But I'm not just watching nationally televised games either.

That being said Peyton hasn't looked good for a quarter of a season. And yes they won 3 in a row without him looking great. But his team allowed 45 total points in those 3 games. In today's NFL that's impressive. Really impressive. And if your team is shutting down the other team and your running back is having a nice stretch you should be winning games.

 

[moleculo]

You bolded your point, I did not. I copied/pasted and did not format your text at all.

Look, you probably know the Broncos a lot better than me. I am not a fan, but I live in the city am a season ticket holder and watch more often than not. I'm not a fan, I'm a transplant. So I don't follow them that closely when it gets right down to it. But I'm not just watching nationally televised games either.

That being said Peyton hasn't looked good for a quarter of a season. And yes they won 3 in a row without him looking great. But his team allowed 45 total points in those 3 games. In today's NFL that's impressive. Really impressive. And if your team is shutting down the other team and your running back is having a nice stretch you should be winning games.

Broncos have switched up their offensive philosophy after the Rams game. It's been a concerted effort to focus on the run game...Manning isn't having the attempts he previously had. When he does throw, it's in predictable situations, allowing defenses to tee off.

I'm not here to say he's been playing lights out, because that certainly is not the case. He's had some really, really questionable throws over that stretch. I do think he's suffering from some decreased strength, I do think he's been battling injury in addition to flu, and I do think he's getting happy feet because the line isn't holding up. And, when you look at the numbers, he look average, which is pretty poor by his standards.

I also think he can turn the star-wars offense back on in a moments notice - I've seen it for stretches over the past few games. Look at Q3 vs Cincy. Look at the last drive of the 1H vs Buffalo. The ability to produce like he did last year is still there, the Broncos are simply keeping it under wraps.

 

[moleculo]

You bolded your point, I did not. I copied/pasted and did not format your text at all.

Look, you probably know the Broncos a lot better than me. I am not a fan, but I live in the city am a season ticket holder and watch more often than not. I'm not a fan, I'm a transplant. So I don't follow them that closely when it gets right down to it. But I'm not just watching nationally televised games either.

That being said Peyton hasn't looked good for a quarter of a season. And yes they won 3 in a row without him looking great. But his team allowed 45 total points in those 3 games. In today's NFL that's impressive. Really impressive. And if your team is shutting down the other team and your running back is having a nice stretch you should be winning games.

also, how did you get season tickets? Isn't the wait list over 10 years?

I'm kind of the opposite - big fan, season ticket holder, but from out of state. I manage to go to one game a year (or more, depending on how schedules and playoffs line up), and sell the rest on Stub Hub/Ticketexchange.

 

[jon_mx]

I have had Manning two times. Once I had Manning/Harrison in 2005 where they both had huge years only to play partial games late in the season. Then this year I had Manning/Demaryius Thomas, again both had huge years only to decide to emphasis the running game late in the season. Both years breezed into the playoffs. Both years destroyed in the playoffs.

 

[cjv123]

People who start their analysis with "it's not arm strength" should get back with us after watching some more games of his.

Peyton's problem, first and foremost, is lack of arm strength, arising in lack of core strength. If he is flustered and moving lateral or backwards he can't put anything on his passes. I can see the Broncos trading Montee Ball and a pick for a QB.

 

[Niles Standish]

You bolded your point, I did not. I copied/pasted and did not format your text at all.

Look, you probably know the Broncos a lot better than me. I am not a fan, but I live in the city am a season ticket holder and watch more often than not. I'm not a fan, I'm a transplant. So I don't follow them that closely when it gets right down to it. But I'm not just watching nationally televised games either.

That being said Peyton hasn't looked good for a quarter of a season. And yes they won 3 in a row without him looking great. But his team allowed 45 total points in those 3 games. In today's NFL that's impressive. Really impressive. And if your team is shutting down the other team and your running back is having a nice stretch you should be winning games.

also, how did you get season tickets? Isn't the wait list over 10 years?

I'm kind of the opposite - big fan, season ticket holder, but from out of state. I manage to go to one game a year (or more, depending on how schedules and playoffs line up), and sell the rest on Stub Hub/Ticketexchange.

Signed up late in 06 when I moved here, got my tickets before the Tebow year. So it was 4 or 5 years waiting at the time since the Broncos weren't good for a while. Nowadays I'm sure it's 10-15 years. I just got lucky with timing.

 

[Dizzy]

We'll find out very shortly. If the Broncos can't light up the Raiders and Manning is still in there in the 4th QTR trying to win/seal the game... then they are cooked (as far as Super Bowl aspirations are concerned).

I also believe that there is a strong possibility this is Manning's last season.

 

[Slapdash]

I think the "something wrong" is that Peyton is getting old. This happens to everyone. There is no reason to expect Peyton to be different.

Peyton's late/post season collapses have been happening for a long time.

2013's last 4 games:

3-1, 10td, 1int

2012's last 4 games

4-0, 8td, 2int

2011's last 4 games

4-0, 9td, 2int

And so on...

But don't worry, I get it. For the people that don't like Manning, any game or stretch where he plays poorly is now a "big game" or "clutch" or a "collapse". He can throw for 400 yards and 3 TDs in the AFC Championship game against New England like he did last year, but all of the sudden the "big games" are the regular season games against New England that he lost. The same regular season games that the anti-Manning crowd used to deem "worthless" when he played well in them.

And now we've stretched it out to the end of the regular season. Which is suddenly super important because, for the first time in a long time, Peyton isn't playing awesome in those games. So now those games are big games where you either rise up to the occasion or choke and collapse. But prior to this year those games weren't important because Manning was playing well in them, so they don't count as playing well in important games. Neither does playing well in any playoff game except the one that he doesn't play well in, of course. The other ones weren't important.

I swear if Peyton sucked in week 5 two years in a row you guys would suddenly decide that week 5 is the most important game of the season and he choked or collapsed in those "big games".

Not sure why I'm put in the "anti-Manning" crowd for that statement. Of course quarterbacks are generally judged harshly for the playoff game they don't play well in. That is usually the one they lose and ends the season. His awful performance in the Super Bowl last year is always going to be remembered more than the AFC championship game.

 

[shader]

In fairness, this game is due to his old age and his lack of arm strength, but it won't help his reputation.

 

[shader]

It was a great career that will always carry a bit of an Asterisk. Not as much as Marino, because Marino never had one.

But Peyton lost a lot of playoff games despite have the better regular season team.

In the end it's gonna be tough for Peyton to claim the "best ever" mantle, especially if Brady can close one more out, or if Rodgers gets another one and continues his career in a way similar to how it's played out so far.

 

[flapgreen]

In fairness, this game is due to his old age and his lack of arm strength, but it won't help his reputation.

Reputation?