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Tracking the 2013-2014 Peyton Manning collapse (1 Viewer)

shader said:
FreeBaGeL said:
When "choke" and "collapse" are defined as not winning the Super Bowl on a team that would probably be about 15th best in the NFL with an average QB it's pretty easy for anyone to fall into that category.

Congratulations on betting the field and being right, as if that's some kind of accomplishment.
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Manning played terrible. Again. In the playoffs.

Realistically, the choke thing is just a little jab at players we don't like that much. It's not necessarily a word that describes all his performances.

But the bottom line is that Peyton has had a very, very disappointing postseason career, and it tarnishes his legacy. The degree to which it tarnishes his legacy will be debated for the next 50 years. But I thjnk everyone can now agree that overall, he's been a disappointing post season player.
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I like to distinguish between things that are predictive and things that are descriptive. Honestly, I don't think there's anything magical about the playoffs that makes people perform worse. From a predictive standpoint, I think we'll have a better idea of how a guy will perform in any given week by using a large sample size that includes the regular season than by using a small sample size that limits itself to the postseason. I think any definition of "clutch" or "choker" is bound to be a curious one, because it's going to tell us Manning is a choker for wetting the bed today against Seattle while completely ignoring the fact that two weeks ago he put up a better performance against New England than any team has ever managed against a Bill Belichick-coached Patriots squad. I think it's a curious thing when one bad performance means you're a choker, one good and one bad performance means you're a choker, and two good and one bad performance also means you're a choker. I think the goalposts, the definition of what qualifies as success or failure, keep getting shifted for Peyton- Peyton sucks in big games, with "big games" getting defined as games where Peyton sucks. Peyton rules against the Pats in the AFCCG? Must not have been a big game. Peyton wets the bed in the Superbowl? Can't handle the pressure!

With that said, the NFL isn't all about predictive statistics. It's not all about saying what will happen tomorrow. In many ways, the NFL is the league that John Facenda built. In many ways, the NFL is about mythology and hagiography and narratives and larger-than-life events and fuzzily-remembered histories. And from a "descriptive statistics" standpoint, there's no arguing that Peyton Manning's postseason career has been a massive disappointment. It doesn't mean I don't think that he's the greatest ever (again, from a "predictive statistics" standpoint, I'd gladly take Peyton to quarterback my team in any game and let the rest of the league have whoever else they wanted), but it does mean that Peyton Manning has underachieved, and that given how good he is and how many chances he's had, we would have expected better results. In large part, random is random, and we're going to see career outliers crop up like Peyton's postseason winning percentage (or Schottenheimer's, for that matter). But while I can easily sit here and say that stuff happens and it's not necessarily a reflection of the people involved, I also bet you that Peyton would gladly trade a couple of his MVP trophies for one of Eli's SB rings.

 
The Peyton guys are just as bad as the Brady guys. The debate is fine by can we please stop cherry picking stats. Peyton has a better record since 06 and more Super Bowls. Since when did everything before 06 stop counting?

Or the Brady had a better defense so that is why they won, well Peyton had a better offense.

Or Peyton made his receivers. No he didn't.

Harrison was well on his way to a great career when Peyton came along. Did Peyton make him better sure, but so would have Brady, Rodgers, Farve and a hoard of other hall of fame quarterbacks.

Did Wayne fall off the face of the earth when Peyton left? Nope it was same old Wayne with another good quarterback.

Was Dallas Clark just some random scrub? Nope he was the best tight end in college the year he came into the NFL and the Colts picked him in the first if I recall correctly because they knew he was talented and wouldn't be there later in the draft.

Brady and Peyton are both great, all time greats but put some thoughts into your opinion on why one is better then the other, don't cherry pick stats, or because you own one guy in fantasy and he has won you lots of money.

 
Young 8 said:
msudaisy26 said:
Harrison was well on his way to a great career when Peyton came along.
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Really ?

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/H/HarrMa00.htm

1996: 836 yds, 8 td

1997: 866 yds, 6 td

1998: 776 yds, 7 td

1999: 1663 yds, 12 td

Not to mention his disappearing act in the playoffs: 16 games, 2 td, 883 yds

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/H/HarrMa00/gamelog//
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1996: 836 yds, 8 td rookie year. Very good numbers for a rookie. 1997: 866 yds, 6 td 2nd year in the league still good numbers with a team that was averaging about 3k yards a year passing and 20 passing touchdowns.

1998: 776 yds, 7 td Manning's first season. We all know he was bad that year.

1999: 1663 yds, 12 td

So ya it was pretty clear that Harrison was going to break out with any decent quarterback play.

I suppose next you will say DT and Decker were nothing before Manning got there.

 
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msudaisy26 said:
Did Wayne fall off the face of the earth when Peyton left? Nope it was same old Wayne with another good quarterback.
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Wayne averaged 92-1,264 in 8 in his last seven seasons with Peyton Manning.

In his first season without Manning, he put up a whopping 75-960-4.

 
msudaisy26 said:
Young 8 said:
msudaisy26 said:
Harrison was well on his way to a great career when Peyton came along.
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Really ?

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/H/HarrMa00.htm

1996: 836 yds, 8 td

1997: 866 yds, 6 td

1998: 776 yds, 7 td

1999: 1663 yds, 12 td

Not to mention his disappearing act in the playoffs: 16 games, 2 td, 883 yds

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/H/HarrMa00/gamelog//
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1996: 836 yds, 8 td rookie year. Very good numbers for a rookie.1997: 866 yds, 6 td 2nd year in the league still good numbers with a team that was averaging about 3k yards a year passing and 20 passing touchdowns.

1998: 776 yds, 7 td Manning's first season. We all know he was bad that year.

1999: 1663 yds, 12 td

So ya it was pretty clear that Harrison was going to break out with any decent quarterback play.

I suppose next you will say DT and Decker were nothing before Manning got there.
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That simply isnt true.

 
Random thoughts:

People seem pretty worried about Manning's legacy. So what, instead of being the greatest QB ever he is...................second? Always a pretty fruitless debate to talk about who is the best and why, and logic is rarely incorporated into the conversations. I mean, who argues against Manning by saying "he has the most post season losses ever". I mean, who says that without realizing they are arguing IN FAVOR of how good Manning is.

Seattle is going be in trouble when Wilson makes 20 million a year after his rookie contract. It's going to cause them to lose about 3 probowl caliber players. Right now he makes less than the punter. Not the kind of trouble where they won't still be good, but definitely not as dominating as now.

 
Wilson doesn't strike me as the kind of "me first" player who will demand 20 million a year and handicap the team. Granted, success can do funny things to a person, but I just don't see it.

 
msudaisy26 said:
Young 8 said:
msudaisy26 said:
Harrison was well on his way to a great career when Peyton came along.
Click to expand...
Really ?

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/H/HarrMa00.htm

1996: 836 yds, 8 td

1997: 866 yds, 6 td

1998: 776 yds, 7 td

1999: 1663 yds, 12 td

Not to mention his disappearing act in the playoffs: 16 games, 2 td, 883 yds

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/H/HarrMa00/gamelog//
Click to expand...
1996: 836 yds, 8 td rookie year. Very good numbers for a rookie.1997: 866 yds, 6 td 2nd year in the league still good numbers with a team that was averaging about 3k yards a year passing and 20 passing touchdowns.

1998: 776 yds, 7 td Manning's first season. We all know he was bad that year.

1999: 1663 yds, 12 td

So ya it was pretty clear that Harrison was going to break out with any decent quarterback play.

I suppose next you will say DT and Decker were nothing before Manning got there.
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Here are the WRs with at least 14 TDs in their first two seasons, and slightly more yardage than Harrison:

Kevin House

Mike Williams (Tampa)

Jeremy Maclin

Darrell Jackson

Gene Washington

Hakeem Nicks

Other than Gene Washington, none of them made a Pro Bowl.

 
Ghost Rider said:
Wilson doesn't strike me as the kind of "me first" player who will demand 20 million a year and handicap the team. Granted, success can do funny things to a person, but I just don't see it.
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Not that it matters, but he deserves AT LEAST Joe Flacco money, that being said, Joe Flacco doesn't deserve Joe Flacco money.

 
Ghost Rider said:
Wilson doesn't strike me as the kind of "me first" player who will demand 20 million a year and handicap the team. Granted, success can do funny things to a person, but I just don't see it.
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Wilson does not have any leverage for a couple of years. Watching Seattle's defense they could have won yesterday with Matt Flynn at QB.

 
Leroy Hoard said:
devouredbychaos said:
Brady is better then Peyton. /endthread
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Yes, let's just ignore what happened last time they played.
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It's funny you should mention that. When Manning went three and out on his first drive - and by first drive, I don't mean the safety - I was thinking how similar it looked to Brady's first drive in the AFCCG, which was also a three and out. And when he overthrew a couple receiver deep later in the game, I remember thinking, that looks a lot like Brady failing to connect with Edelman and Collie on those two deep passes. And when he ended up going to the well again and again to Demaryius Thomas, I remember thinking, that's exactly what Brady did with Edelman. When Manning failed to convert the first of two failed fourth downs - the one in the shadow of the goalposts - I remember thinking, that's exactly what Brady was roundly criticized for doing just two weeks ago. It's amazing what happens to a quarterback when the other team has defensive backs that are as good as, or better than, all of your receivers.But when Manning threw those two interceptions and fumbled the ball and gave up the safety and only led one scoring drive, that wasn't like the AFC Championship game at all. Both teams met with adversity. Both quarterbacks had bad games. But in Brady's bad game, down two scores, he led them to a touchdown that could have improbably cut it to a one score game. Once the ball started rolling against Manning, he never recovered.

Of course, it's hard to imagine a team facing as much adversity as Denver did. I mean, a safety, a fumble by one of his skill position players, a turnover returned for a touchdown, and a three score halftime deficit. Tom Brady could never have overcome all that against Manning. Except that he did, earlier this season, when he overcame an even bigger deficit, led one of the biggest comebacks in NFL history, while Manning had his worst game of the year. And while this wasn't the Superbowl, or the AFC Championship game, it was a critical game on both their schedules - the Broncos were still fighting for first in their own division, let alone home field advantage, and the Patriots were doing the same while also trying to get a first round bye and possibly pass the Broncos for the top seed.

Of course, the difference is that in a season where Brady had already lost most of his weapons, Gronkowski's ACL injury against Cleveland was devastating. But Manning had all of his weapons at his disposal against the Seahawks. So you're right, it's a good comparison. Thanks for bringing it up.

 
bostonfred said:
Leroy Hoard said:
devouredbychaos said:
Brady is better then Peyton. /endthread
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Yes, let's just ignore what happened last time they played.
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It's funny you should mention that. When Manning went three and out on his first drive - and by first drive, I don't mean the safety - I was thinking how similar it looked to Brady's first drive in the AFCCG, which was also a three and out. And when he overthrew a couple receiver deep later in the game, I remember thinking, that looks a lot like Brady failing to connect with Edelman and Collie on those two deep passes. And when he ended up going to the well again and again to Demaryius Thomas, I remember thinking, that's exactly what Brady did with Edelman. When Manning failed to convert the first of two failed fourth downs - the one in the shadow of the goalposts - I remember thinking, that's exactly what Brady was roundly criticized for doing just two weeks ago. It's amazing what happens to a quarterback when the other team has defensive backs that are as good as, or better than, all of your receivers.But when Manning threw those two interceptions and fumbled the ball and gave up the safety and only led one scoring drive, that wasn't like the AFC Championship game at all. Both teams met with adversity. Both quarterbacks had bad games. But in Brady's bad game, down two scores, he led them to a touchdown that could have improbably cut it to a one score game. Once the ball started rolling against Manning, he never recovered.

Of course, it's hard to imagine a team facing as much adversity as Denver did. I mean, a safety, a fumble by one of his skill position players, a turnover returned for a touchdown, and a three score halftime deficit. Tom Brady could never have overcome all that against Manning. Except that he did, earlier this season, when he overcame an even bigger deficit, led one of the biggest comebacks in NFL history, while Manning had his worst game of the year. And while this wasn't the Superbowl, or the AFC Championship game, it was a critical game on both their schedules - the Broncos were still fighting for first in their own division, let alone home field advantage, and the Patriots were doing the same while also trying to get a first round bye and possibly pass the Broncos for the top seed.

Of course, the difference is that in a season where Brady had already lost most of his weapons, Gronkowski's ACL injury against Cleveland was devastating. But Manning had all of his weapons at his disposal against the Seahawks. So you're right, it's a good comparison. Thanks for bringing it up.
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Ok, they both sucked.

 
LOL at comparing a comeback against the Broncos crappy and injury-ridden defense vs one against Seattle's historically great defense.

 
Ghost Rider said:
Wilson doesn't strike me as the kind of "me first" player who will demand 20 million a year and handicap the team. Granted, success can do funny things to a person, but I just don't see it.
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Is that a joke? You cant seriously think he will not demand at or very near market value when he resigns, especially given that he makes jack squat right now.

Of course he is a great guy and team player and not selfish, but he also isn't stupid.

 
ghostguy123 said:
Ghost Rider said:
Wilson doesn't strike me as the kind of "me first" player who will demand 20 million a year and handicap the team. Granted, success can do funny things to a person, but I just don't see it.
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Is that a joke? You cant seriously think he will not demand at or very near market value when he resigns, especially given that he makes jack squat right now.

Of course he is a great guy and team player and not selfish, but he also isn't stupid.
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Right. It doesn't matter how confident you are in your abilities, anyone's career can end at any moment. Only a sap would not demand top dollar.

If he played for far less than market value for a SB winning QB, 1. the players union would be all over his ####. 2. if he were to have a career ending injury playing for far less, no one would be saying, 'well he was a great team guy taking less $'. They would be saying 'what an idiot'.

 
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bostonfred said:
Leroy Hoard said:
devouredbychaos said:
Brady is better then Peyton. /endthread
Click to expand...
Yes, let's just ignore what happened last time they played.
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It's funny you should mention that. When Manning went three and out on his first drive - and by first drive, I don't mean the safety - I was thinking how similar it looked to Brady's first drive in the AFCCG, which was also a three and out. And when he overthrew a couple receiver deep later in the game, I remember thinking, that looks a lot like Brady failing to connect with Edelman and Collie on those two deep passes. And when he ended up going to the well again and again to Demaryius Thomas, I remember thinking, that's exactly what Brady did with Edelman. When Manning failed to convert the first of two failed fourth downs - the one in the shadow of the goalposts - I remember thinking, that's exactly what Brady was roundly criticized for doing just two weeks ago. It's amazing what happens to a quarterback when the other team has defensive backs that are as good as, or better than, all of your receivers.But when Manning threw those two interceptions and fumbled the ball and gave up the safety and only led one scoring drive, that wasn't like the AFC Championship game at all. Both teams met with adversity. Both quarterbacks had bad games. But in Brady's bad game, down two scores, he led them to a touchdown that could have improbably cut it to a one score game. Once the ball started rolling against Manning, he never recovered.

Of course, it's hard to imagine a team facing as much adversity as Denver did. I mean, a safety, a fumble by one of his skill position players, a turnover returned for a touchdown, and a three score halftime deficit. Tom Brady could never have overcome all that against Manning. Except that he did, earlier this season, when he overcame an even bigger deficit, led one of the biggest comebacks in NFL history, while Manning had his worst game of the year. And while this wasn't the Superbowl, or the AFC Championship game, it was a critical game on both their schedules - the Broncos were still fighting for first in their own division, let alone home field advantage, and the Patriots were doing the same while also trying to get a first round bye and possibly pass the Broncos for the top seed.

Of course, the difference is that in a season where Brady had already lost most of his weapons, Gronkowski's ACL injury against Cleveland was devastating. But Manning had all of his weapons at his disposal against the Seahawks. So you're right, it's a good comparison. Thanks for bringing it up.
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Yeah, I mean it's not like Peyton Manning has ever fought back against early adversity to get his team back into a big game or anything. I mean, it's not like he holds the record for leading the largest comeback in a conference championship game. And even if he did, it's not like it would have been against Tom Brady's own Patriots or anything, so you probably wouldn't even remember it. Oh...wait.

But something like that isn't really overcoming adversity. It was just the post season. I mean Brady, he did it in the regular season, and if you've repeatedly harped on any point over the last several years it's that the regular season is much more important than the postseason. Errr....wait, no you haven't.

But don't fear! You brought up the strong point that Brady did it in the conference championship game too! I mean, it's not like he came back to win or anything, but he almost turned a 2-score game into a 1-score game late in the 4th quarter! Yeah, that's what I call overcoming adversity!

You occasionally make some good points. But this alongside bringing up things playoff losses as an indication of bad quarterbacking, these last couple days have not been your best work.

 
Cut bostonfred some slack. Brady doesn't get it done anymore in the postseason, so bashing Peyton is all he's got. Him regurgitating the "Peyton's turnovers led to 26 points for the Seahawks" line, which is factually incorrect, will be quite humorous for years to come.

 
ghostguy123 said:
Ghost Rider said:
msudaisy26 said:
Did Wayne fall off the face of the earth when Peyton left? Nope it was same old Wayne with another good quarterback.
Click to expand...
Wayne averaged 92-1,264 in 8 in his last seven seasons with Peyton Manning.

In his first season without Manning, he put up a whopping 75-960-4.
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Those are pretty good numbers with the QBs the team had at that time.
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Absolutely! He basically had my grandmother and her bridge partners throwing to him that year. His year with Luck is much more indicative and that year was great. Last year was much better than average also up until the injury.

 
Ghost Rider said:
Cut bostonfred some slack. Brady doesn't get it done anymore in the postseason, so bashing Peyton is all he's got. Him regurgitating the "Peyton's turnovers led to 26 points for the Seahawks" line, which is factually incorrect, will be quite humorous for years to come.
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I never understood the anti-Manning movement from Patriot fans. Hate him? Sure. Try to discredit him? Foolish. For a long period of time, Brady owned Manning Even now he has a better record against him. So why try so hard to say Manning plays poorly in the playoffs? That only discredits his opponents i.e. the Patriots and Brady.

 
MoveToSkypager said:
Ghost Rider said:
Cut bostonfred some slack. Brady doesn't get it done anymore in the postseason, so bashing Peyton is all he's got. Him regurgitating the "Peyton's turnovers led to 26 points for the Seahawks" line, which is factually incorrect, will be quite humorous for years to come.
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I never understood the anti-Manning movement from Patriot fans. Hate him? Sure. Try to discredit him? Foolish. For a long period of time, Brady owned Manning Even now he has a better record against him. So why try so hard to say Manning plays poorly in the playoffs? That only discredits his opponents i.e. the Patriots and Brady.
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You don't have to try too hard when an 11-12 record is right in front of your face.

 
Ghost Rider said:
msudaisy26 said:
Did Wayne fall off the face of the earth when Peyton left? Nope it was same old Wayne with another good quarterback.
Click to expand...
Wayne averaged 92-1,264 in 8 in his last seven seasons with Peyton Manning.

In his first season without Manning, he put up a whopping 75-960-4.
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Did you see his quarterbacks that year. No one is quarterback proof ask Fitzgerald, Moss, and I am sure there are others. It is nice you left out what he did the next year after they got a good quarterback.

 
CalBear said:
msudaisy26 said:
Young 8 said:
msudaisy26 said:
Harrison was well on his way to a great career when Peyton came along.
Click to expand...
Really ?

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/H/HarrMa00.htm

1996: 836 yds, 8 td

1997: 866 yds, 6 td

1998: 776 yds, 7 td

1999: 1663 yds, 12 td

Not to mention his disappearing act in the playoffs: 16 games, 2 td, 883 yds

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/H/HarrMa00/gamelog//
Click to expand...
1996: 836 yds, 8 td rookie year. Very good numbers for a rookie.1997: 866 yds, 6 td 2nd year in the league still good numbers with a team that was averaging about 3k yards a year passing and 20 passing touchdowns.

1998: 776 yds, 7 td Manning's first season. We all know he was bad that year.

1999: 1663 yds, 12 td

So ya it was pretty clear that Harrison was going to break out with any decent quarterback play.

I suppose next you will say DT and Decker were nothing before Manning got there.
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Here are the WRs with at least 14 TDs in their first two seasons, and slightly more yardage than Harrison:

Kevin House

Mike Williams (Tampa)

Jeremy Maclin

Darrell Jackson

Gene Washington

Hakeem Nicks

Other than Gene Washington, none of them made a Pro Bowl.
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Here is a list of guys with less yards and catches and touchdowns then Harrison their first 2 seasons.

Cris Carter

Terrell Owens

Michael Irvin

Andre Reed

Tim Brown

All are hall of fame worthy.

 
Adam Harstad said:
I like to distinguish between things that are predictive and things that are descriptive. Honestly, I don't think there's anything magical about the playoffs that makes people perform worse. From a predictive standpoint, I think we'll have a better idea of how a guy will perform in any given week by using a large sample size that includes the regular season than by using a small sample size that limits itself to the postseason. I think any definition of "clutch" or "choker" is bound to be a curious one, because it's going to tell us Manning is a choker for wetting the bed today against Seattle while completely ignoring the fact that two weeks ago he put up a better performance against New England than any team has ever managed against a Bill Belichick-coached Patriots squad. I think it's a curious thing when one bad performance means you're a choker, one good and one bad performance means you're a choker, and two good and one bad performance also means you're a choker. I think the goalposts, the definition of what qualifies as success or failure, keep getting shifted for Peyton- Peyton sucks in big games, with "big games" getting defined as games where Peyton sucks. Peyton rules against the Pats in the AFCCG? Must not have been a big game. Peyton wets the bed in the Superbowl? Can't handle the pressure!
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Speak for yourself. You don't think its predictive because you don't think its predictive. I think its predictive and have made good money on those predictions. Early in his career, manning played badly in the playoffs, period. After a few years in the league, he started beating up on the weak sisters of the poor, with huge games against kc and denver, but still looked horrid against good defenses. In his 2006 superbowl run, he looked terrible in every single game, including the patriots game, until 3/4 of their starting secondary had been knocked out of the game and he mounted a great comeback. He had good games against san diego in two of the following years, but wasn't quite good enough to win. He bucked the trend in the superbowl run leading to the saints, but threw a game ending pick six, and did so again last year in the first round against the ravens. He beat up on the chargers and wounded duck patriots this year, but again struggled against a top defense.If you bet on manning to have a bad game every time he faced a good d in the playoffs, you wouldn't do too bad. And that's pretty much the definition of predictive value.

 
msudaisy26 said:
Here is a list of guys with less yards and catches and touchdowns then Harrison their first 2 seasons.

Cris Carter

Terrell Owens

Michael Irvin

Andre Reed

Tim Brown

All are hall of fame worthy.
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Therefore everyone who doesn't do much in their first two seasons is on their way to the Hall of Fame?

Harrison's first two seasons were decent. He regressed in the second year. Anyone who suggested at that point that he was poised to be a Hall of Famer would have been ridiculed.

 
Saying that Marvin Harrison was poised to be a Hall of Famer after two seasons is about like saying Jeremy Maclin or Lee Evans were poised to be hall of famers after two seasons. Their numbers at that point are pretty similar.

 
CalBear said:
msudaisy26 said:
Here is a list of guys with less yards and catches and touchdowns then Harrison their first 2 seasons.

Cris Carter

Terrell Owens

Michael Irvin

Andre Reed

Tim Brown

All are hall of fame worthy.
Click to expand...
Therefore everyone who doesn't do much in their first two seasons is on their way to the Hall of Fame?

Harrison's first two seasons were decent. He regressed in the second year. Anyone who suggested at that point that he was poised to be a Hall of Famer would have been ridiculed.
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I think it's more than fair to say that Manning made Harrison better.

But what drives me crazy is that Manning fans make it seem like all of his cast of WR characters were bottom of the barrel players and that it was all Manning. This continues to be one of the most pathetic and unfounded arguments.

I watched Harrison play live in the Carrier Dome. He was a stud, was drafted #19 overall, and many thought he was the best WR in the draft.

Dallas Clark was a first round pick. He was the best TE in the draft and actually left a year early.

R. Wayne was drafted in the first round at pick 30.

E. James, B. Stokley, Addai.

These are not scrubs.

Meanwhile Brady was dealing with the likes of David Patton, David Givens, and Reche Caldwell.

 
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CalBear said:
msudaisy26 said:
Here is a list of guys with less yards and catches and touchdowns then Harrison their first 2 seasons.

Cris Carter

Terrell Owens

Michael Irvin

Andre Reed

Tim Brown

All are hall of fame worthy.
Click to expand...
Therefore everyone who doesn't do much in their first two seasons is on their way to the Hall of Fame?

Harrison's first two seasons were decent. He regressed in the second year. Anyone who suggested at that point that he was poised to be a Hall of Famer would have been ridiculed.
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My fault for not quoting the guy talking about Maclin and other receivers. He was suggesting that with out Manning Harrison would have ended up like his list.

I never said he would have been hall of famer if Manning doesn't show up, but you could tell he was going to be a very good receiver in the league. I think my exact words were he was going to breakout.

You guys make it sound like all these receivers would have been out of the league if Manning didn't save them. I say these guys were all talented and would have had good careers with any average quarterback and the same career with guys similar to Manning. Guys like Brady, Brees, Farve, Young, Rodgers etc.

Edit: I take back my apology, I scrolled up and I did quote his list you just cut out to troll me.

 
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It isn't the picks so much as it's the lack of zip on the ball. Everything Manning throws right now is a lob. He still has great touch but the fastball is nearly gone now.

 
Not sure what is up with Manning but the thing I am really noticing is his eyes/face...he has a look on his face that I have never really seen before...not sure if it's because he's hurt or suddenly unable to do stuff he has always been able to do but something is definitely off right now and he knows it...

 
Boston said:
Not sure what is up with Manning but the thing I am really noticing is his eyes/face...he has a look on his face that I have never really seen before...not sure if it's because he's hurt or suddenly unable to do stuff he has always been able to do but something is definitely off right now and he knows it...
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Something tells me John Fox is at the root of this.

 
I'm as big of a Manning apologist as there is, but there clearly is something wrong. 3 of 4 int's where clearly his fault last night, none more critical than the one with less than 4:00 that was returned for a TD. That one cost the game. That, IMO, was a function of throwing technique breaking down - he threw off of his back foot, while jumping. Very cutler-esque. For a QB of Manning's stature, I don't understand what happened here.

It's not arm strength, it's not decision making, it's fundamentals. If you could count on any QB to have solid fundamentals, I would have put my money on Peyton Manning.

Of course, arm strength makes up for flaws that all QB's have - I suppose that when the arm strength goes, it illuminates all of the underlying flaws.

For all of the (deserved) criticism, he did bring it in the third quarter: he was 12-16, 168 yards, 2 TD's (147.9 passer rating). He showed he can still execute at a high level, which makes the Q4 struggles even more perplexing.

 
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