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Tush Push - Do the rules apply for this play or not? Doesn't seem like it (2 Viewers)
- Thread starter trader jake
- Start date
Cowboysfan8
Footballguy
I find this weird. As far as injury risk goes, it's FAR more dangerous to add to the pile later, as those adding to the scrum have that little thing I mentioned earlier...MOMENTUM. Guys get hurt all the time when players come flying into a few bodies standing up out in the field (often friendly fire to boot!)
I'm not convinced that this could be run to anything close to the same level of success by the other 31 teams either. There aren't that many Kelce quality centers, nor that many QBs that can power lift like Hurts.
My biggest gripe with the gripe though is that we see this kind of pushing in the back scrum like stuff all over the field all the time...gang tackles everywhere. You'd have to outlaw it everywhere by both sides, and it would become a nightmare to officiate it
Amused to Death
Footballguy
If 31 other teams could run it, it would have been in their playbook by the end of last year.
Alex P Keaton
Footballguy
How would it be a nightmare to officiate, if the behavior is banned outright?
JohnnyU
Footballguy
I’m not so sure that is a good thing.
Amused to Death
Footballguy
So much more fun than punting, isn't it?
wgoldsph
Footballguy
Maybe not so much talent but strength. Center and qb need to both be able to get forward momentum before the rest of the team pushes, which involves being able to keep the legs churning.
FreeBaGeL
Footballguy
EXACTLY.
It took the whole league what, like 2 weeks to start running the wildcat after Miami did it effectively? And that was more complicated than this.
If it were so easy every team in the league would have been doing it by week 6 of last year.
pinkstapler
Footballguy
Maybe it's just the Joker in me, but considering the Eagles can pretty consistently get 3 yards on this play, I'd love them to do it an entire game. Every. Single. Down. Run it till the defense stops it. And win the game doing it. The salty tears would be fantastic. Especially because it involves the Eagles/Philadelphia.
And no, I'm not an Eagles fan. Just super amusing how upset some people get about this stuff. Like when they basically just let players start traveling in the NBA.
And no, I'm not an Eagles fan. Just super amusing how upset some people get about this stuff. Like when they basically just let players start traveling in the NBA.
Amused to Death
Footballguy
I'm really hoping this year they run some options out of it. Pop an RB or a TE outside for a quick pass.
pinkstapler
Footballguy
I would think Sirianna would design a few of those for sure. Other teams will become so obsessed with stopping the "unstoppable" play, it would make for a great cover for some trickery.
JohnnyU
Footballguy
If it is an unstoppable play you may see some dirty actions by the defense resulting in serious injury.
pinkstapler
Footballguy
I was being facetious hence the quotes, I actually am on the side that doesn't think it's unstoppable. At the same time, I do think not every team could do it successfully and that it really is a thing unique to the Eagles (at least at that high a rate of success) because of the personnel. Especially the o-line. Difficult to navigate the best of all time arguments in sports with how long it's been played and how much it's changed over the years/decades; but I think Jason Kelce is one of the best centers of all time and put a lot of it on his shoulders.
I could be insinuating an unintended thing from your reply so if that's the case, I apologize in advance; but I'm also wholeheartedly against any argument to change the rules against this play built on "it's so good it'll cause other teams to play dirty/cheat". To me, that's akin to a teacher giving a kid a bad grade that's questionable, and then defending the child when they rip up the test and throw a tantrum in the middle of the classroom. As though one somehow justifies the other. Or even implying one somehow "opens the door" for the other. You get your *** kicked on the field, suck it up and "git gud". Pulling a Burfict/Suh/Joe Greene is unacceptable and if I was the league, I'd go the opposite direction and start fining and suspending any player who reacted like that to getting their *** kicked by a legal play.
need2know
Footballguy
This would be funny but guys on both sides would be hurting if they did this.
pinkstapler
Footballguy
Realistically you'd think even the rate they were doing it last year will slow down. It's a perfect storm of one of the better o-lines in the league, a young athletic rushing QB who's also built well enough to run/absorb it, a solid OC who puts them in the position to have a lot of short yardage downs... soon as even one of those things drop off so will calling that play. Plus defenses to adapt. Seemed slow on the uptake last season, but I'd guarantee it was on coaches minds this offseason and they will have at least tried to make schemes against it.
trader jake
Footballguy
Just wait. 2023 will be the year of the push.
This. Either change the rule to say a teammate can't push a ball carrier from behind at all <or> ban pushing a ball carrier from behind within a yard of the line of scrimmage (same area as o-lineman downfield blocking rule).
Exactly.
Amused to Death
Footballguy
Maybe.Just wait. 2023 will be the year of the push.
"It took the whole league what, like 2 weeks to start running the wildcat after Miami did it effectively? And that was more complicated than this." - FreeBaGeL
Terpman22
Footballguy
I could be wrong, but it wasn't a "high" rate at all, I think, including playoffs, they ran this less than 3x per game. I do expect defenses to adapt, which in turn, makes me believe the coaches know this, and therefore there will be some checks to more "trickery" off of this play.
Alex P Keaton
Footballguy
Or hey, they are capable of imagining all the injuries that could and will eventually happen from it.
Amused to Death
Footballguy
Injuries eventually happen on every type of plays in the NFL. Eagles ran that play what, 40 times last year? Not a single injury. But sure, I hope other teams are afraid of it.
Alex P Keaton
Footballguy
I’m sure the thought of likely injury is all just a mental mirage
Amused to Death
Footballguy
What play is immune from potential injury? RBs are hurt every week. So are QBs. So far, the Eagles have suffered no injuries after 40 times. I don't doubt an injury *may* happen on any play. And often do.
Amused to Death
Footballguy
MT5: The punt and the kickoff are the most dangerous plays in the game
Kickoffs represent only 6% of the overall plays, but 14% of the concussions. Also, 20% of concussions and ACL tears occur on punts and kickoffs. The issue with kicks is the speed and space of the plays that result in high-speedLink
trader jake
Footballguy
So, we agree that if a play is deemed "dangerous" by the NFL, they eventually change the rules regarding that play. That point will probably (sadly) be relevant soon enough.
At least a returned kickoff is a highly entertaining play. The rugby scrum push certainly isn't.
Amused to Death
Footballguy
I hear you. And if that play ever became the most dangerous in terms of the percentage of injuries - as the kickoff and punts were - then I'll be right there with you. But going into the '23 season, its literally the opposite. Its among the safest with nary an injury to be found. We can clutch pearls and yell at the screen that that looks soooo dangerous. But let me ask you this; what is more dangerous in your opinion, a QB under center pushing forward or a 220# RB with 8 yards of momentum slamming into the same wall of bodies? What about when a WR is half a yard from a first down and there's half a dozen large bodies pushing from both directions and one trying to rip the ball out - has a player been injured in that situation? Or is the issue really about being "boring"? Because I can't fathom how the "tush push" is any more boring than a typical QB sneak falling over the center. No one complains about that. How many times did we see Brady do that successfully, yet I didn't hear anyone complaining he might get hurt or that its boring.
If the Eagles had run that play 40 times last year and only converted on, say 35% instead of 95% would there still be this outcry to ban it? 25%? Or is it because they were so successful with it?
Mahomes missed two games because he hurt his knee on a typical QB sneak, yet no one is on the "ban the QB sneak" wagon.
Amused to Death
Footballguy
A few years ago the NFL made it a penalty for a defender to fall on a QB in an effort to help keep QBs safe and we all rolled our eyes. We see it flagged in games and we can't believe how much the NFL has changed. "Might as well put flags on the players!" we all say. But sure, let's ban play because a player MIGHT get hurt before one actually does.
Meanwhile, players get hurt every week just from a basic forward pass.
Meanwhile, players get hurt every week just from a basic forward pass.
trader jake
Footballguy
Agreed on many of the points made, but it's not any single item regarding this particular play - it's multiple issues.
1) The conversion rate is way too high.
I hear the crowd that says, "Well, stop the play then!" Sure, stop a player from getting a very small amount of yardage with multiple players pushing the ball cartier from behind when they know the snap count.
This isn't a traditional QB sneak, which has inherently poorer odds of conversion due to (typically) the least athletic skill player on the field attempting to convert without further aid from behind.
2) Difficulty officiating the play
A run typically ends when a player is pushed out of bounds or a ball carrier's knee hits the ground. Neither of those occurs in a majority of push the pile plays. So, we're left with some arbitrary "forward progress" determination on very important conversion attempts.
Which inherently leads to the scrum of very aggressive athletes pushing and shoving (and other things) for an extended period of time. Even well after the whistles eventually do blow. The exact type of on-field situations that lead to 15 yard penalties and video clips the NFL typically doesn't want replayed.
3) Injury Risk
Due to the high conversion rate and the difficulty officiating the play ...defenses are now being incentivized to do things that run afoul of player safety. Yes, the game of football in general runs against the overall health of athletes.
However, this play is especially ripe for thin tail results at the end of the distribution curve. That's what happens when it goes largely from a collision with car v car (ball cartier vs tackler) to the entire road full of vehicles (push the pile play). Add in defenders being incentivized to do things they normally wouldn't do on a play where the end of it is unclear ...and we can't be surprised when a player's leg snaps underneath the momentum & sheer weight, a valuable QB is yanked at an odd angle and suffers a horrific injury, or some other on-field incident breaks out. It's inevitable due to the situations this specific play creates.
4) Lack of strategy
What's the strategy in bowling? "Hey, I'm going to try and knock down them pins!" That's how it felt watching teams (yes, the Eagles ran it the most) when they lined up on 3rd/4th & 1 situations. Will defenses come up with ideas to stop the play? Sure. Will offenses come up with counters? Sure.
If this play spins off into a bunch of strategic elements where real decisions have to be made as a result I'd be shocked. Short conversions will just have coaches blindly sending their offense out and calling this play. That's not the highest level of sports IMO. The NFL had a similar play with extra points conversions and eventually they changed the play. Same will happen here eventually (I hope).
5) Lack of entertainment
As a result of the high conversion rate and lack of strategy we have one boring play. It's like football before the forward pass, but worse. The only less entertaining play in the NFL is a kneel down to set up a field goal.
I could go on, but those are the biggest reason why this play sucks, and why the rulebook should be amended to get rid of it. Instead we'll only see more of it in the 2023 season.
Anarchy99
Footballguy
Back when I used to coach, we had a team that was stacked on both side of the ball. Scored a ton of points, didn't give up many points, and went undefeated on our regular schedule. We ended up winning a couple of playoff games and then went up against a team that ran this exact wedge play. We had scouted them, and they ran it on occasion to get a must have first down, but it was only once or twice a game. Our strategy was to bring in two extra D-linemen, play more LBers, and have only a single safety. Essentially 6 DL, 4 LB, and a S. (Mind you, you only have so many options of kids that could play in different spots.)
In the playoff game, they literally only ran that one play. That's it. Over and over and over and over again. We couldn't stop it, so they kept running it. They didn't get many yards, but they kept getting first down after first down, they kept our offense off the field, and by the second half our defense was exhausted so we REALLY couldn't stop it. They got a TD on every possession while we didn't. Once we got behind, there literally was no way for us to win the game.
The other coaches got furious over this strategy, and I said we should tip our caps. The goal was to win the game, and we couldn't stop that play. If we could, we likely would have won the game.
Amused to Death
Footballguy
According to this article written in January of 2019, the rate of conversion on a QB sneak was 88%. The Eagles last year converted on 37 of 41 attempts for 90.2% rate (yes, I was wrong upthread when I used 95%). Does that extra 2% make it ban-worthy or should all QB sneaks be banned? BTW, the article I linked was advocating for more QB sneaks in the NFL.
Regarding 2 through 5, how is it any different if you substitute the QB for a RB or any other player? What about the two-cheek sneak increases those situations? Any short yardage situation results in a high rate of conversion.
I'm onboard if you want to eliminate ALL QB sneaks and/or pushing ANY player from behind any place on the field.
ETA: again I'll note that no one had a problem with Brady running the sneak. In fact, I remember him being praised for his success rate and him being unstoppable.
FreeBaGeL
Footballguy
This is conjecture though. Until other teams run the play, we don't really know if this is the case, or if the Eagles are just a good short yardage team.
Because while your last statement about traditional short yardage plays having a poorer conversion rate is true for the league as a whole, it's not necessarily true on a PER TEAM basis.
It's hard to find data on short yardage conversions. I could only find 2021 and 2017. But while it's true that the league percentage is much lower, coming in around 70%, every year there are a few teams that way exceed that even without the push the pile play. In 2017 and 2021 there were 3 teams that had conversion rates at right around 90%. So this isn't some crazy historical outlier where everyone is converting around 70% and the Eagles are in the 90's. Every year there are teams in or near the 90's even using traditional short yardage plays.
So given the Eagles strength at interior line, what are the chances here that the Eagles would have been one of those teams in the 90's this year even if they were running traditional plays? I would guess it's pretty likely. So then is push the pile just getting them from 90 to 95%? If it were Tua instead of Hurts running it would it give that little boost? Is that little boost even worth the risk of injury to your QB?
Again, the overlying point here is if it were an easy, auto, risk-free conversion every team in the league would have been running it by week 6. The fact that no one else bothered implies that the other 31 teams in the league either felt it wasn't any better than their traditional short yardage plays, or that the advantage they would get out of it relative to their typical short yardage plays was small enough that it wasn't worth throwing their QB into the pile.
There is no reasonable scenario where every team thought "wow this play is unstoppable, it's an auto first down! But in fairness to our opponent, we're not going to use it.".
trader jake
Footballguy
Those two plays are apples vs oranges.
Similar to in basketball when a shooter has a wide open look vs. being guarded. Yes, in both a player shoots the ball, but they are very different. Here a QB takes the snap and attempts to gain a yard, but a traditional QB sneak vs the push the pile play are very different.
In a traditional sneak the QB approaches the line and will typically run the sneak only when an A gap is open (ie, against a very favorable defense to convert the play - similar to other offensive plays like passing underneath against a cover 4 shell, etc) or as a hurry up play to take advantage of the defense not being set correctly.
There's also something strategically a defense can do to defend against a traditional attempt by putting multiple defensive tackles across from the center to plug the A gaps and dissuade the QB from even running the sneak. The QB could still take the snap and attempt to veer away from the center toward the B gap, or audible to something else to take advantage of the interior build up of defenders, etc, but hey "no risk it, no biscuit."
None of that really exists when the push the pile play is called. The offense doesn't care how the defense aligns or worries about anything but getting the snap cleanly, not fumbling, and timing the snap. The push itself is all that is needed to convert. The coach doesn't face any real dilemma in calling it because if the attempt fails it was because somebody on offense screwed up royaly. It's a biscuit play ...but without the risk it.
If it eliminates this play, sounds good to me.
trader jake
Footballguy
I'll guess we'll see in 2023. My suspicion is we'll see it a lot, by many teams.
Terpman22
Footballguy
The most debated boring play in all of sports!
FreeBaGeL
Footballguy
0 for 2 today so far with other teams trying to run it.
Amused to Death
Footballguy
Who tried to run it and did anyone see any other attempts?
Insein
Footballguy
Colts tried which makes sense since it's Steichen. Richardson not nearly as effective as hurts at it though. Or maybe Kelly not as good as Kelce.
Amused to Death
Footballguy
They do have a new RG, Cam Jergens. I think he's smaller than Seumalu, the former RG.
need2know
Footballguy
I can't think of any. Their offensive playcalling was odd though. Felt like they barely had the ball in the first half and had a bunch of punts in the second
Anarchy99
Footballguy
One of the 4th quarter drives was 4th and 2 and they kicked a 51-yard field goal. They were up 8 points at the time, and with another first down, they could have taken a few more minutes off the clock and worse case still kicked a FG. They would have still been up 11 points, but they could have run the clock down another two minutes.
There was another 4th and 2 right before the 2:00 minute warning that they passed and didn't convert. Last year, I think they would have run the wedge play. This week, it didn't even seem like they thought much about it. That gave NE the ball back with just under two minutes left almost at midfield with a chance for the Pats to win.
Amused to Death
Footballguy
Two yards may be a bit far for a QB sneak, especially on 4th down. Get it within a yard and I think you'll see it.
