US Men's National Team (22 Viewers)

[The Gator]

I've been to more European league games than the entire MLS thread combined. 

Benfica hasn't won anything since JFK was in office. 

####, Benfica is the only team in the league. 

You're right, it sucks

 

[Good Posting Judge]

 We're not Argentina, but sometimes #### happens and you win these games.

Agree, but that team JK picked didn't even give the US that small chance.

 

[SlimShady]

Skipped a bit so sorry if this has been addressed, but it amazes me that after watching Messi, people still think the problem is that the best "athletes" aren't playing soccer.  This isn't basketball or football(hehe), you can't over power soccer, and Americans can't understand this.  It's there or it isn't.  It can nurtured, but it can't be created, and Americans can't nurture it.

Our most skilled athletes are currently playing pro football, basketball or baseball. Next generation many of the most skilled will be playing soccer

 

[Doctor Detroit]

####, Benfica is the only team in the league. 

You're right, it sucks

Porto there too, amirite?  They've won so many UEFA cup and Champions League cups I can't count.  Braga almost one that one time too, correct? 

 

[The Gator]

Porto there too, amirite?  They've won so many UEFA cup and Champions League cups I can't count.  Braga almost one that one time too, correct? 

Yup, they constantly play in the best club tournament out there. 

Terrible league...MLS indeed

 

[Doctor Detroit]

Yup, they constantly play in the best club tournament out there. 

Terrible league...MLS indeed

I'm glad you agree that the MLS is terrible, now we're getting somewhere. 

 

[Sebowski]

Best part of this loss is that maybe we can close this thread. And I only looked back a half a page. 

 

[Sebowski]

Which of our many threads will it be safest to hide in from the expected trolls who will come out tonight to tell us that if we only had the better US athletes playing how much better we would be? 

 

[Sebowski]

Messi is one of the greatest athletes of my lifetime and most Americans never heard of him.

 

 

[CGRdrJoe]

Mls, nfl, Nba and mlb are 4 leagues that are just painful to watch 

 

[need2know]

Anyone else feel like they have been watching the same medicore usa team their entire life?  Talk about something that will never change 

 

[dparker713]

The game was out of control by the end there, but we looked SIGNIFICANTLY better in the 2nd half, IMO.  More possession, it seemed, and some actual purpose moving forward.  

Just might have had something to do with Argentina being up 3-0.

 

[dparker713]

 We're not Argentina, but sometimes #### happens and you win these games.

If you didn't like the US play in this tournament you should probably just quit watching.  The game against Ecuador, comfortably up 2-0 and up a man if Jones doesn't lose his mind, is about as good as we've ever played.  

I'm not sure how you can watch the effort against Argentina and not be disappointed.  We were not only outclassed, we were outworked.  

 

[dparker713]

You can't close the gap in 10-12 years.

Sure you can.  Development systems are nice and all, but at the end of the day its about individual athletes.  

 

[culdeus]

Maybe LeBron will retire for two years and play soccer, not baseball. 

 

[dparker713]

  I can blame JK for his stupid managerial decisions but in reality, tonight's game was lost 18 years ago when 10 year old Messi was getting world class coaching at La Masia and our guys were kicking it around a cow pasture biding time until post-game orange slices.

Sorry, but Messi wasn't made by La Masia.  First off, he didn't go to Spain until he was 13.  Second, if you could actually teach what he does, there'd be more players closer to his skill level.  La Masia helped, for sure.   But the raw material was staggering.  

 

[Ned]

It's pretty fricken' hilarious... We go from elated that the team is gelling and playing as a unit back to questioning the talent level of the team, questioning the MLS academies, etc etc.  What a fickle bunch.  

I think the biggest thing I took away from this game was just how important Bobby Wood is to this team.  His runs were freeing up Dempsey and Zardes which became a domino effectof creating chances.  Argentina didn't have to respect ANY runs last night which freed up their ridiculous midfield even more.  Go back and watch at how ####### wide the CBs played - essentially mocking our "attack".  Did JK really think Wondo was going to come even close to forcing them to respect??  The only time I saw any sort of pressure up the middle was from Bradley at the top of their 18 a couple of times.  WTF?  

I'm very curious how the 3rd place game will be approached.  I hope they come out to avenge an embarrassing loss, but they're going to have their hands full with Colombia or Chile (god I hope its not Chile).

My 7yr old was screaming at the TV last night when Messi scored on that free kick.  He's watched so many youtube highlights of Messi that he knew where that ball was going.  Yet they still couldn't stop it.  Unreal.

 

[TLEF316]

Sorry, but Messi wasn't made by La Masia.  First off, he didn't go to Spain until he was 13.  Second, if you could actually teach what he does, there'd be more players closer to his skill level.  La Masia helped, for sure.   But the raw material was staggering.  

For some reason  I thought he went earlier, but the point still stands. Yes, Messi is an extreme example,  but my point is that while Klinsmann is responsible for the lineup, he's not necessarily responsible for the current state of the player pool.

 

[[icon]]

I think most people had a reasonable expectation that the US would have at least one shot on goal in this game and that didn't even come close to happening. It was just a pathetic showing all around by even the lowest standard. 

Actually Pulisic had a decent look in traffic right in front of the net but dished it off instead of taking the shot. I was hardly a sure thing to score as his man was defending him pretty well.... But IMO he could have put that on net had he not passed. 

 

[dparker713]

The MLS is not the path for the US to develop a great soccer program.  It's not "bashing the MLS", it's the facts.  The players for Argentina are elite professionals.  Players that play in the MLS are not.

The two players I'm most excited about for the USA's future are Wood and Pulisic and both are playing in Germany.  You don't want them playing in the MLS because then they can't get better.  How can you ever expect to beat Argentina if all of your attacking players spend their careers playing in an extremely inferior league?  The answer is that you can't. 

The MLS is a poor league, that shouldn't even be a question or cause anyone to get upset.  

For the US to succeed, more players need to go to Europe and play, and the goal would eventually be to have zero players inthe USMNT starting lineup that play in the MLS.

Do you think it's a coincidence that the countries with the 4 best leagues are perennial top international teams as well?  And before you claim that there's no way the MLS could ever compete, realize that the EPL nearly doubles the revenue of the Bundesliga at a little over 5B USD - Just slightly more than the NBA.  Meanwhile, MLB nearly doubles that and the NFL is two and a half times that.  The money in US sports is staggering especially when you consider that the US TV deals for foreign soccer leagues are significant.  Unfortunately, the current model of the MLS only allows for slow growth and parity.  The league needs motivated ownership willing to invest in winning to build both their team and the league.

 

[dparker713]

For some reason  I thought he went earlier, but the point still stands. Yes, Messi is an extreme example,  but my point is that while Klinsmann is responsible for the lineup, he's not necessarily responsible for the current state of the player pool.

Well, not the current state.  But MLS academies or EPL academies or reforming college soccer isn't going to magically change things either.  Besides, people always seem to forget that often the best players on the planet don't develop in team academies - they just grew up with a ball stuck to their foot.  Either the talent with emerge, or it won't.  

 

[Dinsy Ejotuz]

I have to say that the amount of poor games Bradley puts in has to make JK question whether he should be an automatic choice any more.  It is hard for JK to move away from players he likes but you can't consistently have so many bad games as Bradley has had and still have your spot waiting for you.

He does some things really well, but those giveaways have really added up lately.  Not sure what you do with him.

 

[Ned]

I have to say that the amount of poor games Bradley puts in has to make JK question whether he should be an automatic choice any more.  It is hard for JK to move away from players he likes but you can't consistently have so many bad games as Bradley has had and still have your spot waiting for you.

He does some things really well, but those giveaways have really added up lately.  Not sure what you do with him.

I was thinking about this while I was out running this morning.  Is this a case of burnout?  Dude's been a workhorse for quite a while now.  Maybe all of these minutes are adding up?

 

[fatguyinalittlecoat]

Anyone else feel like they have been watching the same medicore usa team their entire life?  Talk about something that will never change 

No, I don't.  These guys are way better than the teams from when I was a kid.  

 

[CletiusMaximus]

From the US perspective, who do you want developing kids?  European giants that understand how to develop them and have been doing it for 100 years or the Columbus Crew???  It's a no-brainer.

For most parents, it is a no-brainer. Pulisic and Wood are extremely rare cases, where kids were able to move to Germany in their early teens. For the great great majority of American parents, if given the choice between sending their 13 year old to live as a trialist somewhere in Europe or train with an MLS academy, its a very easy decision. That's what makes the Lederman story so interesting, improbable and ultimately sad. His offer was to train at one of the most famous, successful and richest academies in the world - literally a one in a million (or more) opportunity. What if your 13 year old were offered a trial at Bolton or Zaragoza or Hoffenheim? The fact is that for US kids, the holy grail of soccer success is to get a college scholarship - a goal that is inconsistent with the goal of becoming a successful professional player. 

 

[Buzzbait]

I have to say that the amount of poor games Bradley puts in has to make JK question whether he should be an automatic choice any more.  It is hard for JK to move away from players he likes but you can't consistently have so many bad games as Bradley has had and still have your spot waiting for you.

Agree. He was untouchable not too long ago and an automatic mainstay (with good reason) in the lineup. Now...not so much. He's been pretty inconsistent now for an extended period and if their are better options then they should be considered.

 

[roadkill1292]

We need to get more inner city kids playing. Our best athletes, by and large, aren't in upper middle class suburbs. 

We are missing the world's greatest pool of young athletes to the lure of football and basketball. 

 

[Dinsy Ejotuz]

I'm not sure how you can watch the effort against Argentina and not be disappointed.  We were not only outclassed, we were outworked.  

Of course I'm disappointed, but they're the same team they were a week ago.  They were down two key starters and had a terrible night against a team that's made the finals of three straight major tournaments and that has, arguably, the GOAT.  It happens.  Doesn't really change anything though.

 

[shader]

Sure you can.  Development systems are nice and all, but at the end of the day its about individual athletes.  

As someone said earlier in the thread, even if you magically could insert a PERFECT academy system into the US, RIGHT NOW, it would take 20 years for the US to truly close the gap.  

This isn't like American football where you can grab an unskilled athlete, show him how to run a few routes and allow his athleticism to take over...it's a technical game that requires training from a very young age.

 

[shader]

For most parents, it is a no-brainer. Pulisic and Wood are extremely rare cases, where kids were able to move to Germany in their early teens. For the great great majority of American parents, if given the choice between sending their 13 year old to live as a trialist somewhere in Europe or train with an MLS academy, its a very easy decision. That's what makes the Lederman story so interesting, improbable and ultimately sad. His offer was to train at one of the most famous, successful and richest academies in the world - literally a one in a million (or more) opportunity. What if your 13 year old were offered a trial at Bolton or Zaragoza or Hoffenheim? The fact is that for US kids, the holy grail of soccer success is to get a college scholarship - a goal that is inconsistent with the goal of becoming a successful professional player. 

That's true and I totally get that.  I wouldn't want my kid to move to Germany.  Which is why the article I linked earlier is the way that things need to happen.  Bring the academies to the US.  Liverpool, Arsenal, Bayern Munich and Barcelona seem to be the four European teams that have begun doing that, and it will pay dividends.

 

[Dinsy Ejotuz]

I was thinking about this while I was out running this morning.  Is this a case of burnout?  Dude's been a workhorse for quite a while now.  Maybe all of these minutes are adding up?

JMO, but I think his touch isn't good enough and when we play elite teams that are willing to pressure immediately he has trouble handling it.  But that's been true for a long time -- nothing new.  Until/unless we have better options he's still going to be an autostart.

 

[Sinn Fein]

That's true and I totally get that.  I wouldn't want my kid to move to Germany.  Which is why the article I linked earlier is the way that things need to happen.  Bring the academies to the US.  Liverpool, Arsenal, Bayern Munich and Barcelona seem to be the four European teams that have begun doing that, and it will pay dividends.

Man City have already established an academy in the States - I think its called NYCFC

 

[Poke_4_Life]

Wow, this thread is a cluster####.  Lets get back to happier topics.

Before the Copa started someone asked who the must starts are for the USMNT.  Lets do that again, now that the meaningful games are over.  I'll go first.

Must starts - Zardes, Wood, Yedlin, Cameron (possibly at 6 in the future), Brooks, Fab.  Probably Germany Jones also, but I'm not sure for how much longer.

I'm really pleased to add Zardes, Wood, and Brooks to the list since prior to the tourney.  Very positive step.

 

[Poke_4_Life]

whatever Portugal calls their league, or whatever the Brazilians and Argentines call theirs then it's a fail.

Do you know anything?  Most players in the Argentina and Brazilian leagues would love to play in the MLS and double or triple their salaries.  Many current MLS players have come from South American leagues (including the Columbian and Chilean league).

 

[Ned]

Wow, this thread is a cluster####.  Lets get back to happier topics.

Before the Copa started someone asked who the must starts are for the USMNT.  Lets do that again, now that the meaningful games are over.  I'll go first.

Must starts - Zardes, Wood, Yedlin, Cameron (possibly at 6 in the future), Brooks, Fab.  Probably Germany Jones also, but I'm not sure for how much longer.

I'm really pleased to add Zardes, Wood, and Brooks to the list since prior to the tourney.  Very positive step.

Must starts in the near future needs to include Dempsey still.

 

[blend]

That's true and I totally get that.  I wouldn't want my kid to move to Germany.  Which is why the article I linked earlier is the way that things need to happen.  Bring the academies to the US.  Liverpool, Arsenal, Bayern Munich and Barcelona seem to be the four European teams that have begun doing that, and it will pay dividends.

At least here in SW Florida - where one of the Bayern linked academies are.. they (Bayern) are no more than a marketing name for GPS.  The director at my kids' club left last year to head up the GPS program and got the tie-in to Bayern (this director also had coached in the Bayern youth academy).   These Euro academy systems aren't what I was expecting.  I though there would have been a lot more involvement from them outside of their name.   My kids moved along with their coach to GPS and are back at our original club this year when their coach left.  Around here, players follow coaches, not the name associated to a club.    My understanding is that 2 other clubs in the area have affiliations now with european clubs - West Ham and someone in La Liga

I originally thought that the Euro backed clubs would be different in some way... Maybe have less cost associated with them as they'd have lots of $$ from Bayern or West Hams, but that isn't the case.  Just that their kits have the team logo on it.  

 

[Poke_4_Life]

Must starts in the near future needs to include Dempsey still.

True.  So Germany and Deuce for now, but not sure how much longer.

 

[NewlyRetired]

JMO, but I think his touch isn't good enough and when we play elite teams that are willing to pressure immediately he has trouble handling it.  But that's been true for a long time -- nothing new.  Until/unless we have better options he's still going to be an autostart.

This post makes me think. 

While only 10 or so teams around the world have the ability to out possess us 75-25 during a game, I am now starting to wonder why any half way good team we played does not press us very hard in the midfield.

With JK preferring players who are hard workers over players who are more technical, it really shows up how poor we are on the ball when pressured.

My dad told me the US reminds him of an NFL quarterback.  When they are not pressured, they can string together passes just fine just as almost any pro quarterback can complete passes at a high rate when given time, but the way you separate an average NFL quarterback from a very good one is how they perform under pressure from the defense.

The lineup we started last night was high on work rate but very low over all on technique.  We might be stuck with this since it is what JK prefers (and he has to have that ability to make that decision as head coach, he knows his alternatives).

 

[dparker713]

As someone said earlier in the thread, even if you magically could insert a PERFECT academy system into the US, RIGHT NOW, it would take 20 years for the US to truly close the gap.  

This isn't like American football where you can grab an unskilled athlete, show him how to run a few routes and allow his athleticism to take over...it's a technical game that requires training from a very young age.

No it doesn't.  Pele grew up playing with a grapefruit.  

The gap isn't caused by some mythical training regimen of European clubs.  We could have had the PERFECT academy system in the US 40 years ago and we'd still have a gap.  It might be somewhat smaller, but it wouldn't magically make the US team a top contender.  

 

[[icon]]

Wow, this thread is a cluster####.  Lets get back to happier topics.

Before the Copa started someone asked who the must starts are for the USMNT.  Lets do that again, now that the meaningful games are over.  I'll go first.

Must starts - Zardes, Wood, Yedlin, Cameron (possibly at 6 in the future), Brooks, Fab.  Probably Germany Jones also, but I'm not sure for how much longer.

I'm really pleased to add Zardes, Wood, and Brooks to the list since prior to the tourney.  Very positive step.

Again.. I'm a soccer dummy here... 

However, Is there any reason to NOT give our young guys a lot of work? Pulisic, for example, looks quite good already with extremely limited experience. If I'm to assume skill/experience is cumulative, why wouldn't we want to be giving our best youth minutes to improve our long term program health.  I think a young emerging superstar getting widespread attention with possibility to become an upper tier athlete COULD be a tipping point for young athletes to latch on to and begin targeting soccer.... the Tiger Woods effect if you will. 

Or am I under false assumptions here... which is very possible.  

 

[dparker713]

Man City have already established an academy in the States - I think its called NYCFC

That's an old folks home.

 

[The Z Machine]

He does some things really well, but those giveaways have really added up lately.  Not sure what you do with him.

Absolutely.  We need to find some more players that can play in the center of the park.  MB was an absolute rock before 2014, but has seriously regressed IMO.  I think he's simply become accustomed to a style of player / training / player that won't hound him and force quicker distribution.  His passes seem to go awry when he passed longer diagonal balls.  He used to be a bit more conservative in his passing and seemed to have better field vision.  Also, he seems to have slowed down his box to box running.  He always had a high motor, but he's not putting in the miles like he used to.  Perhaps that's by JK's design, and have Jones and Bedoya putting in the miles, but in the ARG game, I think that was a tactical error not asking him to be high tempo.  Maybe he has lost that ability, which would certainly be a downgrade in his overall skills.

 

[NewlyRetired]

I find it interesting that people are hoping that US players will join English academies.

I think all would agree on the surface of the following:

*England has a wider and deeper pool of top level teenagers than the US does

*England has better facilities for these players to train at

*Since England has been doing this much longer than the US has, they should be much better at developing players

*England's top league (where the top of the top developmental players graduate to) is significantly better than the American version, which should give their best prospects a much better environment in which to grwo.

So if we agree, from a 5000 foot level that England has all of these significant advantages, why is their international record in major tournaments (World Cups, Copa's and Euros) not significantly better than the US's?  And this with the US just really getting started on the development process.

 

[The Z Machine]

Again.. soccer dummy here... 

Is there any reason to NOT give our young guys a lot of work? Pulisic, for example, looks quite good already with extremely limited experience. If I'm to assume skill/experience is cumulative, why wouldn't we want to be giving our best youth minutes to improve our long term program health. 

Or am I under false assumptions here... which is very possible.  

I think you're right for this 3rd place game, but the reality is that in WC qualifying, you want to put the best team out on the field that can get you points.  I'm not sure Pulisic is that guy yet.  His development won't come from the USMNT, it will come from his time in Dortmund.

 

[Doctor Detroit]

 

 I love butthurt fans.  

 

[roadkill1292]

I find it interesting that people are hoping that US players will join English academies.

I think all would agree on the surface of the following:

*England has a wider and deeper pool of top level teenagers than the US does

*England has better facilities for these players to train at

*Since England has been doing this much longer than the US has, they should be much better at developing players

*England's top league (where the top of the top developmental players graduate to) is significantly better than the American version, which should give their best prospects a much better environment in which to grwo.

So if we agree, from a 5000 foot level that England has all of these significant advantages, why is their international record in major tournaments (World Cups, Copa's and Euros) not significantly better than the US's?  And this with the US just really getting started on the development process.

Every team I've seen England play at the Euros has had equal or better technical skills. They have their own issues, for sure.

 

[[icon]]

I think you're right for this 3rd place game, but the reality is that in WC qualifying, you want to put the best team out on the field that can get you points.  I'm not sure Pulisic is that guy yet.  His development won't come from the USMNT, it will come from his time in Dortmund.

Good point regarding best development coming during club play abroad. I guess I wonder about cohesiveness as well. How important is team chemistry and time on the pitch together? Argentina, for example... I have to think many/most of those guys have played together intermittently for many years. Are our guys at a disadvantage there as well? Or am I overvaluing/misunderstanding that as well? 

thanks for the response. 

 

[The Z Machine]

I find it interesting that people are hoping that US players will join English academies.

I think all would agree on the surface of the following:

*England has a wider and deeper pool of top level teenagers than the US does

*England has better facilities for these players to train at

*Since England has been doing this much longer than the US has, they should be much better at developing players

*England's top league (where the top of the top developmental players graduate to) is significantly better than the American version, which should give their best prospects a much better environment in which to grwo.

So if we agree, from a 5000 foot level that England has all of these significant advantages, why is their international record in major tournaments (World Cups, Copa's and Euros) not significantly better than the US's?  And this with the US just really getting started on the development process.

Their record is better, maybe not significantly better, but better.  Also, they simply play better in those games.  They would have probably managed more than a dozen touches in the ARG box last night, and *gasp* maybe even a shot on goal.

However, ENG suffers from not having enough top level talent to compete with GER, ARG, SPA, FRA, BRA.  Simply put their best aren't the best.

 

[NewlyRetired]

I think you're right for this 3rd place game, but the reality is that in WC qualifying, you want to put the best team out on the field that can get you points.  I'm not sure Pulisic is that guy yet.  His development won't come from the USMNT, it will come from his time in Dortmund.

I am unsure that Pulisic is going to get as much time next year at Dortmund as he did this past year.  I know that sounds counter intuitive but he was in such a unqiue situation last year between the injuries and Dortmund stuck in a spot they were unlikely to change in the table up or down which allowed them to experiment more.

That makes me wonder what things will be like once the season starts fresh, players are healthy and gaining points are at a premium again.

I would love to see him remain in the regular sub roll, spot starter but it would not shock me if he also spent some time with the U19's again.

Pulisic, Wood and Emmy are three players to really watch closely as the new season starts to see how they deal with their club situations.

 

[The Z Machine]

Good point regarding best development coming during club play abroad. I guess I wonder about cohesiveness as well. How important is team chemistry and time on the pitch together? Argentina, for example... I have to think many/most of those guys have played together intermittently for many years. Are our guys at a disadvantage there as well? Or am I overvaluing/misunderstanding that as well? 

thanks for the response. 

The Argentina team probably plays just as few minutes as a team as the USA.  Their starting lineup has (I think, without looking) effectively zero players at the same club.  Maybe there's a pair with Romero and Rojo?  But that's no field players.