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US Men's National Team (16 Viewers)

My joint CONMEBOL/CONCACAF tiering...entirely subjective, not considering just current form, but overall estimate of quality.  YMMV

Argentina, Brazil

Chile, Colombia, Uruguay, Ecuador

USA, Mexico

Venezuela, Paraguay, Peru, Costa Rica

Panama, T&T, Honduras, Jamaica, Bolivia

 
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My joint CONMEBOL/CONCACAF tiering...entirely subjective, not considering just current form, but overall estimate of quality.  YMMV

Argentina, Brazil

Chile, Colombia, Uruguay, Ecuador

USA, Mexico

Venezuela, Paraguay, Peru, Costa Rica

Panama, T&T, Honduras, Jamaica, Bolivia
I like this mental exercise!  Here are my comments

1) Brazil is getting to be very interesting whether they should still be considered top as they always have been. 

In the 2015 Copa, Brazil lost to Paraguay in quarters.  Paraguay then themselves lost 6-1 in the semi finals.

Brazil is currently sitting in 6th position in World Cup Qualifying and would not even get a playoff spot if qualifying ended now

And they just flamed out of the Copa with an admittedly not a  full strength side.

They need to step things up quick else I don't think they should be considered the 1a/1b to Argie as they always have

2) I would remove the Mexico US layer for 2 reasons

a) Mexico's one bad game should not override that they were the hottest team in the world this past year.  The recent 22 game unbeaten streak is incredible.  To put that in perspective the best streak ever in history for the US was 16 games back in the mid 2000's (which included a lot of draws where Mexico's current streak has been almost all wins)..   Over that time period that Mexico did not lose, the US has lost 8 times.  I think Mexico more belongs with the group above than level with the US.

b) The difference between a Costa Rica and the US is remarkably thin.  Neither team can get points when playing away.  Until one of them can break this dead lock head to head, I think they should be considered relative equals.

 
The rut Brazil is finding itself in is pretty fascinating to me. Nations that are better organized at both the club and national levels are overcoming Brazil's historic advantage in producing homegrown talent. 

 
Saw this on reddit and figured I would post it here. It was on some soccer radio show that Jimmy Conrad was invited too.   Take all with a grain of salt since nothing is corroborated.

=================================================================

Host #1: I wanna just finish by..I don't know..I mean, I think that if we look at the middle three games of this tournament I would feel pretty good about where we are as a team..

Host #2: Because Klinsmann stayed out of the way

Jimmy: Yeah

Host #1: Do you think that's true?

Host #2: He just stayed, he left the right guys on the field and got out the way. Let them solve the problems on their own.

Jimmy: But I heard..this is a rumor..straight rumor..I've still yet to get this confirmed, but I heard that the older players had a meeting with him 'cause even the two lead up games to the tournament...

Host #2: Yes! This is what I said, Jimmy, I've been saying this for three weeks..

Jimmy: Yeah something happened, I think something happened with the older players they told Jurgen...

Host #2: This to me felt like Bradley said, "enough is enough" and he sat down with Jones, he sat down with maybe Beckerman, with maybe Howard and said, "Alright, this is how we're gonna play" cause it's not like Klinsmann tells them what to do.

Jimmy: Dude, there's just no way you go five years tinkering with your lineup almost every game for five years, then all of a sudden, before a big tournament, be like, "You know what? I'm gonna stick with the same lineup for three straight games". There's just no way that happens without something happening behind the scenes or some kind of force and I heard that the older players got together and said, "enough changing the lineup, just give us a chance to have the same lineup a couple of games in a row and see what happens". That's what I heard.

 
My joint CONMEBOL/CONCACAF tiering...entirely subjective, not considering just current form, but overall estimate of quality.  YMMV

Argentina, Brazil

Chile, Colombia, Uruguay, Ecuador

USA, Mexico

Venezuela, Paraguay, Peru, Costa Rica

Panama, T&T, Honduras, Jamaica, Bolivia
Chile isn't top tier after winning back to back?

 
I don't doubt that happening, but if so jk needs to go.  
It is not too different from what Philip Lahm said about JK when he coached at Bayern

================================

"The experiment with Klinsmann was a failure. We were only working on our fitness in training. He didn't care much for tactical stuff," he wrote. "It was up to the players to come together before a match and discuss how we were going to play. All the players knew after about eight weeks that it was not going to work out with Klinsmann. The remainder of that campaign was nothing but limiting the damage."

 
Now see, Andy, when I read message board exchanges like that, it just sounds like people way overthinking things. Like they way they do in tv show threads like Lost or Game of Thrones. Granted, that may be because I don't want to think very deeply about much of anything, least of all footy.

 
Now see, Andy, when I read message board exchanges like that, it just sounds like people way overthinking things. 
What are you referring to?  

The text above was from a radio show, not a message board (the text was posted on reddit but the source was a soccer radio/internet show).  Jimmy Conrad is as plugged in to the US scene as anyone in the US media is, he is far from someone like us just spouting nonsense on FFA most of the time :)  .

 
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What are you referring to?  The text above was from a radio show, not a message board (the text was posted on reddit but the source was a soccer radio show).  Jimmy Conrad is as plugged in to the US scene as anyone in the US media is.
Radio show, right, I missed that. But "something happened?" Maybe the dialogue doesn't translate well to the written word.

 
Radio show, right, I missed that. But "something happened?" Maybe the dialogue doesn't translate well to the written word.
He clearly can't get anyone to come on the record about it so that is why I said you need to take this with a grain of salt because he can't get it corroborated.  

Unscripted sports talk shows rarely sound correct when translated to text because no one lets anyone complete a thought.

 
It is not too different from what Philip Lahm said about JK when he coached at Bayern

================================

"The experiment with Klinsmann was a failure. We were only working on our fitness in training. He didn't care much for tactical stuff," he wrote. "It was up to the players to come together before a match and discuss how we were going to play. All the players knew after about eight weeks that it was not going to work out with Klinsmann. The remainder of that campaign was nothing but limiting the damage."


this smells like the problem with other great players turned coach. they assume that since they were great, other players should naturally have the same ability to understand the game, the same vision, the same knack to make the plays they did.

it's something i've heard said of insecure people/those who lack confidence. they don't think they're anything special, that they're worthless, that they are stupid so what they do should be easy for everyone else, too.  they don't feel the need to instruct/help people do things because doing so would 1) expose them as stupid or fraudulent when they demonstrate something  and/or 2) be a waste of time because anything they could teach is so basic and simple that only an idiot would need to be taught how to do it.

 
So we have one of two things going on

1) where there is smoke there is fire and some of these rumors over the years about JK are true

2) the guy has made so many enemies in the sport here in the US for various reasons that people are just making crap up

It might even be a mix of these two where something small in #1 is blown up to sound worse because of #2.

 
this smells like the problem with other great players turned coach. they assume that since they were great, other players should naturally have the same ability to understand the game, the same vision, the same knack to make the plays they did.

it's something i've heard said of insecure people/those who lack confidence. they don't think they're anything special, that they're worthless, that they are stupid so what they do should be easy for everyone else, too.  they don't feel the need to instruct/help people do things because doing so would 1) expose them as stupid or fraudulent when they demonstrate something  and/or 2) be a waste of time because anything they could teach is so basic and simple that only an idiot would need to be taught how to do it.
Can you imagine Ted Williams being a hitting coach? 

"See the ball and hit it, you jackasses" 

Who was the last great player to be a great coach? 

Popovic didn't play professionally, right?

Jose didn't

Rodgers didn't

Fergie was good, but he wasn't a great

Bellicheat, nope

 
Can you imagine Ted Williams being a hitting coach? 

"See the ball and hit it, you jackasses" 

Who was the last great player to be a great coach? 

Popovic didn't play professionally, right?

Jose didn't

Rodgers didn't

Fergie was good, but he wasn't a great

Bellicheat, nope
some site did a ranking of the 32 NFL coaches based on their sporting careers.  the best was Del Rio with, what, 1 pro bowl? couple guys had a few non-descript NFL seasons.. the rest either never played at all.. or peaked at very low level colleges.

 
Was Cruyff considered a great coach or did he just have great teams?

How about someone from your own club lineage?  Kenny Daldglish

Pep was probably not considered a great player
Simeone was a key player for very good Argentina teams.  Ancelloti was a very good player for those AC Milan powerhouses.  Jupp Heynckes was a very good CB before he was a manager. 

I think there is a type of player who thrives as a coach.  It's rarely the star creative player.  It's more often the piano mover types.

 
Can you imagine Ted Williams being a hitting coach? 

"See the ball and hit it, you jackasses" 
Williams was AL Manager of the year in 1969.  The Senators improved by 21 games vs. 1968.  Barry Bonds has been doing well as the Marlins hitting coach this season.

But skills <> tactics.  A national team manager doesn't have enough time with players to improve their skills and tactics are much more important in soccer than baseball.

 
Williams was AL Manager of the year in 1969.  The Senators improved by 21 games vs. 1968.  Barry Bonds has been doing well as the Marlins hitting coach this season.

But skills <> tactics.  A national team manager doesn't have enough time with players to improve their skills and tactics are much more important in soccer than baseball.
there are exceptions to every rule :shrug:

 
The Gator said:
Can you imagine Ted Williams being a hitting coach? 

"See the ball and hit it, you jackasses" 

Who was the last great player to be a great coach? 

Popovic didn't play professionally, right?

Jose didn't

Rodgers didn't

Fergie was good, but he wasn't a great

Bellicheat, nope
Simeone

 
Iceland didn't even use its third sub to kill the game in the 93rd, as we all know is a crucial tactical maneuver indicative of euro management guile. This, with Eidur on the bench, the only sen in the squad. 

 
Ramsay Hunt Experience said:
Simeone was a key player for very good Argentina teams.  Ancelloti was a very good player for those AC Milan powerhouses.  Jupp Heynckes was a very good CB before he was a manager. 

I think there is a type of player who thrives as a coach.  It's rarely the star creative player.  It's more often the piano mover types.
hogwash

 
Betting odds for next England manager

Gareth Southgate – 6/4

Alan Pardew – 8/1

Eddie Howe – 10/1 

Gary Neville – 14/1

Brendan Rodgers – 14/1 

Jurgen Klinsmann – 16/1 

Harry Rednapp – 16/1 

Roberto Mancini – 25/1 

Read more: http://metro.co.uk/2016/06/27/gareth-southgate-clear-favourite-to-replace-roy-hodgson-as-england-manager-5970543/#ixzz4Csq6FkTh
Gareth Southgate makes me feel better about Klinsmann and any possible replacements.  

 
this article started out ok, but then turned into kind of a hatchet job (you would think the title would have clued me in :) .

 For those displeased with JK, these cherry picked stats from a tweet included in the article should fuel your fire 

https://twitter.com/MLSist/status/747152632502849536/photo/1?ref_src=twsrc^tfw

Here is the full article in spoiler since it is a little long but has some good parts

How I learned to stop worrying and hate Jurgen Klinsmann

The United States finished fourth in the Copa America Centenario, and even if the tournament may or may not have been a cash-swapping bribery extravaganza, that accomplishment is a very good one for a team that couldn't even muster a third-place finish at last year's Gold Cup. For many, that's the end of the story, just as an extra-time, nail-biting loss to Belgium in the Round of 16 was the end of the story. On the brightest stages, Jurgen Klinsmann delivered results that were at or even above the level expected of the United States. These guys were never going to be good enough to compete with Argentina or Colombia or Belgium anyway. The fact that a couple of those games were close is a minor miracle as it is, right? We can't expect to really challenge those teams until we have our own superstar players in Europe, obviously.

Yes. But also, no.

It took me a long time to realize I held hate in my body for Jurgen Klinsmann. It's probably not hate at all; it's somewhere between petty annoyance and righteous indignation, but the more he coaches the United States, the more I understand the confusion surrounding his reign at the helm with Germany and the ignominy of his Bayern Munich tenure. His teams aren't good in long stretches, and frequently drop results to teams that are far beneath them. In between those doldrums, though, Klinsmann gets some brilliant freakin' results. Even when the performance doesn't look great, his teams have proven capable of achieving results that seem beyond them when their previous form is taken into discussion. No one thought that '06 Germany team was actually capable of the semis. No one was expecting the U.S. team that lost to Jamaica, Panama, and Guatemala in competition to then go and beat Costa RicaParaguay, andEcuador in succession.

Jurgen Klinsmann gets unsustainable results. With the United States, they've been unsustainable because of his inability to articulate any sort of criteria for lineup selection that he can consistently follow or maintain a formation that allows the lineup to gel or form any sort of cohesion. And just when it seemed like we were just going to be getting non-stop lineup changes with no real meaningful core of players in defense or midfield, Klinsmann fed us four straight lineups with no changes outside of switches due to suspension. That was exciting, but only as exciting as a lineup that features only two to four (depending on who you ask) players outside of their best position can be. And when the crucial moment came, the moment when the U.S. needed to be at its absolute best from coach to player to equipment manager, Klinsmann trotted out Chris Wondolowski in a 4-4-2 and the U.S. took zero shots in a 4-0 comprehensive beatdown against Argentina.

Maybe I'm foolish or just a whiner for complaining like this. I'm splitting hairs, right? I want a consistent lineup and then when I get it I'm still not satisfied? I want positive results but I'm somehow mad about a fourth place finish in the Copa America?! Yep. I'm upset Chris Wondolowski is still playing in any U.S. games. I'm upset that Klinsmann seems completely unable to trust Darlington Nagbe, his best midfielder on the ball, in the name of "bringing him along slowly" and making sure he's adjusted to the "pace" of the game (the same game he's starting Chris Wondolowski and Gyasi Zardes in, well known for their measure of the "pace" of top international talent), while watching him come into games and not struggle with the pace of the game nearly as much as some of his midfield counterparts. I'm upset at how he continues to experiment with players mid-game, and I'm upset that somehow subbing in Steve Birnbaum at 3-0 down was a correct choice to make. I'm upset about many other things involving Jurgen Klinsmann as well, but here's a nice itemized list instead:

All of these things are true. But again, he's managed some good results, and there were genuine positives from the Copa as well. That lineup really showed signs of cohesion against Ecuador and then again against Colombia in the third-place game. A definite backline and centerback pairing were formed. There was some tactical understanding of when to move from a 4-3-3 to a 4-5-1 to a 4-4-2 against Ecuador, and it resulted in a pretty dominant performance for 60 minutes or so. So there's no way I can just point at all the bad of Klinsmann's job performance without looking at the good; I can't simply point at the bleak disparity in shots and expected goals between Klinsmann's U.S. and all of their opponents over the last couple years and deny a fourth place finish at the Copa America and surviving a very talented group at the 2014 World Cup to advance ahead ofGhana and Portugal. So any performance or player gripes I have with Klinsmann aren't totally backed up purely by statistics or numbers, and I'm ok with recognizing that.

Because the man is either insufferably arrogant or just plain vapid, and I'm really not sure which.

Klinsmann's public repertoire is full of cliché, bland soccer talk, and a condescension for any person that might criticize him. He continually avoids any sort of responsibility for losses while preaching accountability for players and leagues, and the closest he comes to tactical analysis is frequently comments like how the U.S. didn't "step on Argentina'stoes." He is on record saying formations don't really matter. And he just keeps on smiling, talking about how the public needs to be educated in soccer more.

Here's something the public doesn't need to be educated on: 4-0 losses in which your team takes no shots is a complete and utter failure from play on the field to coaching, and no amount of empty platitudes or coaching clichés changes that.

If Klinsmann showed any amount of responsibility for owning up to some mistakes he made, or took more responsibility in educating us poor Americans in this sport with something other than vague nonalysis, I might be more forgiving here. But he just doesn't. He keeps explaining all about how none of us understand while never really proving that he understands, either. Because he doesn't understand, at least not the soccer public that is questioning him and growing louder and louder. He doesn't understand that we're not as angry with him because of this team's play as we are with just him and how he chooses to condescend rather than dialogue.

Klinsmann has had carte blanche from USSF from day one, and he will continue to have that until 2018 at the earliest. Why? Because even if USSF secretly agreed with everything I believe about Jurgen Klinsmann, firing him before Russia 2018 (provided the U.S. qualifies) would be a public admission of wrongdoing, and coming from the federation so willing to suffer public embarrassment instead of paying their women's team a bit more in order to prove through legislation that they are in the right, that's just not going to happen.

So buckle up for the rest of qualifying. It's sure to be interesting with Klinsmann at the helm, and should the U.S. qualify for Russia, there's really no telling what the USMNT's fortunes could look like two years from now. I pretend to be cynically aloof to the almost-inevitably poor performances to come, but in reality I probably care too much. What I have stopped worrying about is our coaching situation. I'm not going to like it. I know I won't like it, no matter what he does in the next two years. Because I hate Jurgen Klinsmann.
 
Scooby asked a while back who the new coach should be once the WC cycle ends.

There was some talk about maybe it is time for us to not look local and not look to Europe but instead to look to South America.

Argentine coaches are doing quite well at this period of time in soccer.

I was thinking of how someone like Guillermo Barros Schelotto would fit in?  He is currently the manager at Boca Juniors after being hired by Palermo this past winter but having to leave the position because he could not acquire a coaching badge from UEFA.

By 2018, he will have been coaching club soccer for 7 seasons which should give him plenty of experience with player management and tactics and he comes with the unique feature of having played in MLS so he will be more likely to understand the issues associated with the domestic league.  He also owns a soccer academy in Ohio.

He would also come at a significantly cheaper price than some of the bigger names will command.

 
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I think you're overestimating the Euros relative to the World Cup.
I was not estimating anything.  I was just making a comparison.

And to your point, I could easily argue what is happening in Iceland in terms of broad based recognition in their country is as big as any recognition the US has generated here stateside during the WC's.

 

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