Use of the English language by Americans (1 Viewer)

[rockaction]

It’s getting worse. There’s really no doubt that vocabularies are shrinking and usage a little more tortured.

 

[Terminalxylem]

No offence, but this seems like a "get off my lawn" type thread. I remember when pwned became a thing and I thought it was the most ridiculous thing. Then I realized I was just getting old.

No, not really. I just don’t think speaking good English is as much of a priority as it used to be. If that is just an age thing, OK.

 Proper English. Not  good English.

I was thinking the same. Also, not a fan of the split infinitive in the OP.

 

[zamboni]

No offence, but this seems like a "get off my lawn" type thread. I remember when pwned became a thing and I thought it was the most ridiculous thing. Then I realized I was just getting old.

No, not really. I just don’t think speaking good English is as much of a priority as it used to be. If that is just an age thing, OK.

 Proper English. Not  good English.

I was thinking the same. Also, not a fan of the split infinitive in the OP.

Welp, there’s also the issue of a run-on sentence in the OP. But that’s not important right now.

 

[bigbottom]

No offence, but this seems like a "get off my lawn" type thread. I remember when pwned became a thing and I thought it was the most ridiculous thing. Then I realized I was just getting old.

No, not really. I just don’t think speaking good English is as much of a priority as it used to be. If that is just an age thing, OK.

 Proper English. Not  good English.

I was thinking the same. Also, not a fan of the split infinitive in the OP.

I blame Star Trek.

 

[Joe Bryant]

The amount of time people spend reading has declined significantly. Schools are still trying to teach reading and writing but it’s like pulling teeth to get many teens to read. Tough to compete with all the media options available. I’ve seen our districts testing. Our kids score very well until around grade 5-7 when a huge decline happens. My theory is that this correlates with the age most kids get their first cell phone.

This is super interesting to me.

As someone who publishes written information for consumption, it's something I think a lot about. I've definitely seen a push toward readers wanting a more concise and distilled form of content.

I think a good bit of that has to do with the sheer volume of available content. 30 years ago, one read the newspaper on the table as there wasn't a lot of other things to read within reach. Today, the choices within reach are seemingly limitless.

So if I'm offering an article that is one of a zillion choices for the reader, I probably want to get to the point.

We make fun of listicle type articles but they're attractive for a good reason.

I also find the spectrum interesting on this though. One would think short form video would soar. And it does. It's why TikTok is so popular. But Joe Rogan's podcast and Tim Ferris' shows are 3 hours long and incredibly popular.

Super interesting.

 

[Joe Bryant]

If I'm understanding the OP right though, what I'm saying above is different.

I also see a marked increase in sloppy writing and conversation. That has little to do with competing with lots of options.

 

[JohnnyU]

The amount of time people spend reading has declined significantly. Schools are still trying to teach reading and writing but it’s like pulling teeth to get many teens to read. Tough to compete with all the media options available. I’ve seen our districts testing. Our kids score very well until around grade 5-7 when a huge decline happens. My theory is that this correlates with the age most kids get their first cell phone.

This is super interesting to me.

As someone who publishes written information for consumption, it's something I think a lot about. I've definitely seen a push toward readers wanting a more concise and distilled form of content.

I think a good bit of that has to do with the sheer volume of available content. 30 years ago, one read the newspaper on the table as there wasn't a lot of other things to read within reach. Today, the choices within reach are seemingly limitless.

So if I'm offering an article that is one of a zillion choices for the reader, I probably want to get to the point.

We make fun of listicle type articles but they're attractive for a good reason.

I also find the spectrum interesting on this though. One would think short form video would soar. And it does. It's why TikTok is so popular. But Joe Rogan's podcast and Tim Ferris' shows are 3 hours long and incredibly popular.

Super interesting.

An article can be condensed and still know when to use the words "hear" / "here", "their" / "there" and "to" / "too". I suppose some of that is autocorrect, but not always. As far as podcasts go, speakers use the word "like" out of context too much. Defenders of that will tell you "like" is the new "uh", but I'm not buying it.

 

[Ilov80s]

In writing, I think the sloppiness is partially connected to the speed and volume at which writers are expected to produce and probably a lack of quality editors.

 

[rockaction]

I've definitely seen a push toward readers wanting a more concise and distilled form of content.

Not me. Please keep your content as long as anything needs explaining, Joe.

So if I'm offering an article that is one of a zillion choices for the reader, I probably want to get to the point.

Also to do with content -- don't offer articles that are one of a zillion choices. That's the first step in obtaining readership.

I also find the spectrum interesting on this though. One would think short form video would soar. And it does. It's why TikTok is so popular. But Joe Rogan's podcast and Tim Ferris' shows are 3 hours long and incredibly popular.

It depends on the subject and the level of explanation needed for the subject to make sense to the listener. For example, Player Profiler, one of your competitors, puts out great TikTok videos that are generally no more than 30-60 seconds in length. They get into a point and get out of it. On the other hand, some of your longer articles need to be long to cover the ground they're covering. It all depends on the subject matter and whether condensing leaves the reader/watcher/listener with the same explanation as before the condensing. That's why Player Profiler is able to use TikTok to their advantage: A lot of it is in the framing of the issue and what is to be explored. And sometimes there is no condensing something without missing essential elements of the argument proffered by the author.

 

[zamboni]

In writing, I think the sloppiness is partially connected to the speed and volume at which writers are expected to produce and probably a lack of quality editors.

That's probably true with the advent of social media. Information needs to get out there quickly to have the desired effect. For certain other types of information, such as newspapers, novels, and textbooks, the language bar is still high to be fully credible for the intended audience.

 

[rockaction]

probably a lack of quality editors

I'm right here, bro. Nah, everybody is cutting corners these days in hiring an editor. They're often trusting an author to know the basic rules of the English language. If they do have an editor, chances are that he or she is so overworked and in charge of such vast amounts of information that it's impossible to edit effectively.

 

[Ilov80s]

probably a lack of quality editors

I'm right here, bro. Nah, everybody is cutting corners these days in hiring an editor. They're often trusting an author to know the basic rules of the English language. If they do have an editor, chances are that he or she is so overworked and in charge of such vast amounts of information that it's impossible to edit effectively.

Yes maybe I needed an editor for my statement. I didn’t mean the editors themselves were poor quality. Just as you say it’s all about cutting corners.

 

[rockaction]

Yes maybe I needed an editor for my statement.

Naw, I wasn't criticizing your statement. I was just saying that if you need an editor...I'm studying that right now. I couldn't find the emoji that raises his hand.

 

[Ilov80s]

Naw, I wasn't criticizing your statement. I was just saying that if you need an editor...I'm studying that right now. I couldn't find the emoji that raises his hand.

Yes I do remember you taking classes. How is it coming along?

 

[rockaction]

Yes I do remember you taking classes. How is it coming along?

Thank you for asking. It's good, but I'm a little stuck in the program requirements, which I won't go into here. Always something, right?

But I have learned a lot from the work that I've done so far.

 

[ignatiusjreilly]

Bill Bryson has written a bunch of interesting books about the evolution of the English language (the only one I've read was "Made in America", which was fascinating). One thing I hadn't realized: Up until a couple hundred years ago, spelling wasn't standardized. That's why in texts from the 1700s you see words like "chuse" instead of "choose". I believe it only happened because of folks like Noah Webster and the rise of dictionaries

 

[Ilov80s]

Bill Bryson has written a bunch of interesting books about the evolution of the English language (the only one I've read was "Made in America", which was fascinating). One thing I hadn't realized: Up until a couple hundred years ago, spelling wasn't standardized. That's why in texts from the 1700s you see words like "chuse" instead of "choose". I believe it only happened because of folks like Noah Webster and the rise of dictionaries

Interesting. I’m a bit of a free spirit when it comes to grammar or even using non-real words. If people read it/hear it and can understand exactly what it means, it’s properly used imo. It’s ok to be creative. For whatever reason, I’m not so forgiving about spelling.

I wonder what’s a bigger problem, people not knowing how to properly say/write their ideas or people not having real ideas to say/write in the first place? When teaching, the latter is always the far bigger problem.

 

[Zow]

I support the OP solely for the fact that "literally" now, apparently, means "figuratively" or "hyperbolically."

But, otherwise, every generation says this about the new or young generation.

 

[Captain Cranks]

I admit that my use of ebonics has increased over the last couple of years. I'll say things such as, "he be like..." on the regular. It's kinda fun.

 

[Zow]

Also, we should kind of acknowledge that most humans don't value or care about the intricacies of the English language. I mean, there's got to be a reason why DMX* and basically any popular country artist sell more records than Aesop Rock.

*RIP

 

[rockaction]

Aesop Rocky

Just Aesop Rock.

A$AP Rocky is the other rapper, and he's not the one with the immense vocabulary.

eta* You get tons of credit for knowing that there is a rapper named Aesop Rock and that he has a huge vocabulary.

 

[Zow]

Aesop Rocky

Just Aesop Rock.

A$AP Rocky is the other rapper, and he's not the one with the immense vocabulary.

eta* You get tons of credit for knowing that there is a rapper named Aesop Rock and that he has a huge vocabulary.

Thanks. I meant Aesop Rock, obviously.

 

[Goldminer1]

I'm in education. Getting kids to read for class is difficult and it always has been. There are also still those kids, who love nothing more than to read-read-read. I think the biggest change is that "middle" group. Those kids who get A's & B's, they aren't the Valedictorian, but they'll still get into a 4-year university - those kids, in today's tech-world, almost never read anything they don't have to. There are all sorts of websites like SparkNotes and others that summarize a lot of the books that are required reading in high school. If those tools fail them, then there is YouTube which has a ton of content that kids can use to avoid doing their real work. Which brings up perhaps a bigger societal / education question - "What does it mean to 'know' something?" and/or "Does it matter -how- you know something?"

As far as writing goes, one interesting thing to me, is that many students simply "choose" to be less formal in their writing, but are absolutely capable of writing in a more formal manner if they are required to do so.

Texting, social media etc. can all be blamed for that, but I also think it is partly on the rest of society, thinking that kids & teens ONLY write in text speak. The young students just choose to, because it is faster, easier and the norm amongst their peer group. Their Great Uncle Lou doesn't ask them to write an essay on the Civil War, he only sees the family group text, or social media posts, and just assumes that is how the kid always communicates, and that they are incapable of producing more formal writing.

At the end of the day, I don't think our current situation is all that different than any other time, in terms of being "scared" that kids don't read or write as well as the previous generation did. The difference to me, is that question I posed above - "What does it mean to 'know' something?" If I can google something on my phone, in 2 seconds, does it really matter, if I have to google it in the first place? A huge part of school these days isn't necessarily knowing everything, it is knowing -where- to find the answer. That skill of "knowledge discovery" has become almost as valuable as having the knowledge to begin with. If I know what happened in a book, does it really matter if I actually read it, cover to cover? If I have to watch a 10 minute long YouTube video on how to write an essay, does that mean our society is failing, or is this just the new way we do things?

 

[Scoresman]

Fine, so long as we don't start using words like Telly, or Footie, or Petrol like they do across the pond. They've messed up the language more than we have.

 

[ignatiusjreilly]

I admit that my use of ebonics has increased over the last couple of years. I'll say things such as, "he be like..." on the regular. It's kinda fun.

FTFY

 

[FatMax]

First they came for cursive and I said nothing

You can add in long division as well.

I can get on board with most of what you're saying here, but not this one. I can't think of a single reason that cursive is needed anymore. Heck, I can't remember the last time I handwrote anything longer that a recipe, and even then, it surely wasn't cursive.

 

[FatMax]

I'm in education. Getting kids to read for class is difficult and it always has been. There are also still those kids, who love nothing more than to read-read-read. I think the biggest change is that "middle" group. Those kids who get A's & B's, they aren't the Valedictorian, but they'll still get into a 4-year university - those kids, in today's tech-world, almost never read anything they don't have to. There are all sorts of websites like SparkNotes and others that summarize a lot of the books that are required reading in high school. If those tools fail them, then there is YouTube which has a ton of content that kids can use to avoid doing their real work.

I was definitely that "middle group" you described when I was in high school. My area of expertise was knowing exactly how much I needed to do to get what I wanted. And more importantly, also knowing what I didn't need to do. I cannot imagine just how much lazier I would have been with all the tools that are available today.

 

[Runkle]

Like many other languages, such as Spanish with tu and usted, or French with tu and vous, English used to have a singular "you" and a plural "you": 'thou' was the singular and 'you' was for the plural only. Over time, people just stopped caring about the distinction, and we gave up on thou.

Nothing wrong with that, it just evolved out of usage and we get by just fine. We're also losing the distinction for the usage of 'whom' versus 'who', and we really don't care anymore if a sentence ends with a preposition.

We're getting by just fine without worrying about it, the meaning is still understood. I'd wager most people get by without knowing, for example, the difference between farther and further.

 

[zamboni]

Aesop Rocky

Just Aesop Rock.

A$AP Rocky is the other rapper, and he's not the one with the immense vocabulary.

eta* You get tons of credit for knowing that there is a rapper named Aesop Rock and that he has a huge vocabulary.

Thanks. I meant Aesop Rock, obviously.

Just a fable.

 

[ignatiusjreilly]

Nothing wrong with that, it just evolved out of usage and we get by just fine. We're also losing the distinction for the usage of 'whom' versus 'who', and we really don't care anymore if a sentence ends with a preposition.

This is a situation up with which I will not put!

 

[nirad3]

I'm in education. Getting kids to read for class is difficult and it always has been. There are also still those kids, who love nothing more than to read-read-read. I think the biggest change is that "middle" group. Those kids who get A's & B's, they aren't the Valedictorian, but they'll still get into a 4-year university - those kids, in today's tech-world, almost never read anything they don't have to. There are all sorts of websites like SparkNotes and others that summarize a lot of the books that are required reading in high school. If those tools fail them, then there is YouTube which has a ton of content that kids can use to avoid doing their real work.

I was definitely that "middle group" you described when I was in high school. My area of expertise was knowing exactly how much I needed to do to get what I wanted. And more importantly, also knowing what I didn't need to do. I cannot imagine just how much lazier I would have been with all the tools that are available today.

Same. I was a solid B+ student across all disciplines. Well, the occasional C in math (cuz I suck at it) or A in history. And I used my available resources (AKA super-smart friends) to my advantage in many classes (like chemistry for example). I won't say I cheated but I remember using his notes to study from sometimes.

 

[IvanKaramazov]

You guys are all hand-waving away minor stuff like split infinitives.

In the meantime, people in the business world keep turning nouns into verbs without being met with violence. We need to violence this more often.

 

[Ilov80s]

I can get on board with most of what you're saying here, but not this one. I can't think of a single reason that cursive is needed anymore. Heck, I can't remember the last time I handwrote anything longer that a recipe, and even then, it surely wasn't cursive.

I get that but also

1. Most other countries write in cursive so it's a good skill to have just in general
2. Kids learn all kinds of things that are limited use later in life, what's wrong with cursive being one of them?
3. Cursive is faster, nothing wrong with being able to write faster. I know typing and texting is the dominant but there are still times where writing by hand is useful.
4. I may be behind on my research but I think studies have shown people remember things better written by hand than typed
5. It's probably good for fine motor skill development.

 

[rockaction]

We need to violence this more often.

That's a big ask

 

[hagmania]

First they came for cursive and I said nothing

Cursive can shove it!

my link

 

[nirad3]

I can get on board with most of what you're saying here, but not this one. I can't think of a single reason that cursive is needed anymore. Heck, I can't remember the last time I handwrote anything longer that a recipe, and even then, it surely wasn't cursive.

I get that but also

1. Most other countries write in cursive so it's a good skill to have just in general
2. Kids learn all kinds of things that are limited use later in life, what's wrong with cursive being one of them?
3. Cursive is faster, nothing wrong with being able to write faster. I know typing and texting is the dominant but there are still times where writing by hand is useful.
4. I may be behind on my research but I think studies have shown people remember things better written by hand than typed
5. It's probably good for fine motor skill development.

I can't remember the last time I wrote anything in cursive. Hell, my signature was once letter-by-letter cursive but has been shortened quite a bit over the years.

 

[Snoopy]

Nothing wrong with that, it just evolved out of usage and we get by just fine. We're also losing the distinction for the usage of 'whom' versus 'who', and we really don't care anymore if a sentence ends with a preposition.

This is a situation up with which I will not put!

If you can't end a sentence with a preposition, what are you supposed to end it with?

 

[Ilov80s]

I can't remember the last time I wrote anything in cursive. Hell, my signature was once letter-by-letter cursive but has been shortened quite a bit over the years.

My signature is a mess but it’s funny seeing many kids these days sign something by printing their name like a 1st grader.

My writing isn’t pure cursive. It’s a blend of cursive and printing, basically what I’ve found to be fastest for me. This is usually when I am writing only for myself.

Also when was the last time you solved multi step equations, determined the congruence of 2 triangles, balanced a chemical equation, created a Venn diagram, diagramed a sentence, played floor hockey?

 

[zamboni]

Nothing wrong with that, it just evolved out of usage and we get by just fine. We're also losing the distinction for the usage of 'whom' versus 'who', and we really don't care anymore if a sentence ends with a preposition.

This is a situation up with which I will not put!

If you can't end a sentence with a preposition, what are you supposed to end it with?

That’s why it’s called a preposition and not a postposition.

 

[ignatiusjreilly]

You guys are all hand-waving away minor stuff like split infinitives.

In the meantime, people in the business world keep turning nouns into verbs without being met with violence. We need to violence this more often.

I for one am in favor of robust punishments for anyone using business jargon

 

[nirad3]

I can't remember the last time I wrote anything in cursive. Hell, my signature was once letter-by-letter cursive but has been shortened quite a bit over the years.

My signature is a mess but it’s funny seeing many kids these days sign something by printing their name like a 1st grader.

My writing isn’t pure cursive. It’s a blend of cursive and printing, basically what I’ve found to be fastest for me. This is usually when I am writing only for myself.

Also when was the last time you solved multi step equations, determined the congruence of 2 triangles, balanced a chemical equation, created a Venn diagram, diagramed a sentence, played floor hockey?

Yeah my handwriting can be the half-cursive-ish style or straight-up all caps like an architect or engineer.

My son is learning long division (4th grade) and I had to really rack my brain as to how to do that.

 

[ignatiusjreilly]

Literally the only thing I can write in cursive anymore is my signature, and even that is mostly a scribble at this point. I can't even fake someone else's signature

 

[Van Dyman]

Yes maybe I needed an editor for my statement.

Naw, I wasn't criticizing your statement. I was just saying that if you need an editor...I'm studying that right now. I couldn't find the emoji that raises his hand.

If you mean this one, it's :hey :

 

[Atomic Punk]

I can take the errors in writing but for all that is holy, please stop using the work “like” or “kinda” every third word in every sentence.

 

[Sand]

It’s getting worse. There’s really no doubt that vocabularies are shrinking and usage a little more tortured.

Which is a shame. The English language is one of our blessings. We have 600,000 words or so - outstripping classical languages (French, Italian, etc.) by a decent bit and other common languages like Spanish by many multiples.

 

[Mister CIA]

I cracked a "pluperfect" joke, but what was I thinking.

 

[Mister CIA]

The amount of time people spend reading has declined significantly. Schools are still trying to teach reading and writing but it’s like pulling teeth to get many teens to read. Tough to compete with all the media options available. I’ve seen our districts testing. Our kids score very well until around grade 5-7 when a huge decline happens. My theory is that this correlates with the age most kids get their first cell phone.

This is super interesting to me.

As someone who publishes written information for consumption, it's something I think a lot about. I've definitely seen a push toward readers wanting a more concise and distilled form of content.

I think a good bit of that has to do with the sheer volume of available content. 30 years ago, one read the newspaper on the table as there wasn't a lot of other things to read within reach. Today, the choices within reach are seemingly limitless.

So if I'm offering an article that is one of a zillion choices for the reader, I probably want to get to the point.

We make fun of listicle type articles but they're attractive for a good reason.

I also find the spectrum interesting on this though. One would think short form video would soar. And it does. It's why TikTok is so popular. But Joe Rogan's podcast and Tim Ferris' shows are 3 hours long and incredibly popular.

Super interesting.

Do you have any thoughts regarding paragraphs? They're dead, aren't they?

 

[Joe Bryant]

Do you have any thoughts regarding paragraphs? They're dead, aren't they?

I hope they're not dead.

Paragraphs are a service to the reader presenting your thoughts and message in a form that's hopefully easier to take in.

 

[Willy]

When I was a kid I don't recall widespread misuse of the word myself. My recollection is people always struggled with when to use me or I.

I'm was on a meeting with executives at my company and one of them kept saying "myself and my team". I've noticed this one happens a lot recently. It's like people couldn't figure out when to use me or I, so they just say myself instead.

 

[mr. furley]

When I was a kid I don't recall widespread misuse of the word myself. My recollection is people always struggled with when to use me or I.

I'm was on a meeting with executives at my company and one of them kept saying "myself and my team". I've noticed this one happens a lot recently. It's like people couldn't figure out when to use me or I, so they just say myself instead.

started noticing this about 10 years ago when a couple college grads started at the office.

heavy, heavy use of "myself" by both of them. there's a use for the word, but they were throwing it around recklessly.