War in Israel (1 Viewer)

[timschochet]

In Israel Netanyahu is under great scrutiny for having boosted Hamas in order to discredit the Palestinian Authority.

 

[Sand]

According to the latest reporting, Palestinians in Gaza were begging Egypt to open up the border between Gaza and Egypt. Before the Egyptians could respond, Israeli jets bombed the highway between Gaza and Egypt, effectively cutting off both escape for refugees and blocking all food and water for coming into Gaza.

I’m not condemning what Israel is doing here- but I’m not seeing a good outcome from (a) preventing Palestinians from fleeing and (b) cutting off food and water from 2 million people.

Meanwhile Hamas is bombing Israeli cities and some rockets are getting through. They promise to bomb Tel Aviv next.

Historically this has been a resounding "no" from Egypt. I don't think it's safe to think the response would have been any different now.

Now, if Egypt said yes to women and children that would be a good thing, even if they then shipped them off to a Shia friendly country, i.e. Iran. Maybe then that 6B could be put to good humanitarian use.

 

[timschochet]

I also think it is important to point out that Israel doesn't really kill innocent civilians. Almost all of the Palestinian non combatants are killed during bombing raids or targeted attacks of Hamas where Hamas has placed civilians in harms way.

That makes Hamas responsible for their death, not Israel.

Even international law makes it clear that the presence of innocent civilians(protected persons) does not prohibit military operations.

It is pretty obvious why such an exemption would exist.

Sorry but this is not completely true.

Gaza is a very condensed area and the people cannot leave. There is nowhere to go. Hamas hasn’t placed these people in harms way; they are in harms way by being in Gaza.

 

[timschochet]

According to the latest reporting, Palestinians in Gaza were begging Egypt to open up the border between Gaza and Egypt. Before the Egyptians could respond, Israeli jets bombed the highway between Gaza and Egypt, effectively cutting off both escape for refugees and blocking all food and water for coming into Gaza.

I’m not condemning what Israel is doing here- but I’m not seeing a good outcome from (a) preventing Palestinians from fleeing and (b) cutting off food and water from 2 million people.

Meanwhile Hamas is bombing Israeli cities and some rockets are getting through. They promise to bomb Tel Aviv next.

Historically this has been a resounding "no" from Egypt. I don't think it's safe to think the response would have been any different now.

Now, if Egypt said yes to women and children that would be a good thing, even if they then shipped them off to a Shia friendly country, i.e. Iran. Maybe then that 6B could be put to good humanitarian use.

You are correct about Egypt’s refusal to allow refugees in the past. But they do use that road to send food and supplies to Gaza (not arms.) Destroying the road is not a good look for the Israelis IMO. I get it, war is war. But I still don’t know what the goal is for Israel.

 

[timschochet]

MSNBC reporter is confirming that Hamas has beheaded some hostage children under the age of two.

JFC

ETA- We cannot expect the Israelis to behave rationally in such a situation. How would we react?

 

[IvanKaramazov]

According to the latest reporting, Palestinians in Gaza were begging Egypt to open up the border between Gaza and Egypt. Before the Egyptians could respond, Israeli jets bombed the highway between Gaza and Egypt, effectively cutting off both escape for refugees and blocking all food and water for coming into Gaza.

I’m not condemning what Israel is doing here- but I’m not seeing a good outcome from (a) preventing Palestinians from fleeing and (b) cutting off food and water from 2 million people.

Meanwhile Hamas is bombing Israeli cities and some rockets are getting through. They promise to bomb Tel Aviv next.

Historically this has been a resounding "no" from Egypt. I don't think it's safe to think the response would have been any different now.

Now, if Egypt said yes to women and children that would be a good thing, even if they then shipped them off to a Shia friendly country, i.e. Iran. Maybe then that 6B could be put to good humanitarian use.

If Egypt is willing to take the Palestinians, wonderful. By all means, let's talk We can definitely figure out a way to make that work, and it will save lots of bloodshed.

Of course, this is all hypothetical because Egypt is in charge of one of the walls of this open air prison. They know what these people are all about, and they want none of that either. So here we are.

 

[Todem]

According to the latest reporting, Palestinians in Gaza were begging Egypt to open up the border between Gaza and Egypt. Before the Egyptians could respond, Israeli jets bombed the highway between Gaza and Egypt, effectively cutting off both escape for refugees and blocking all food and water for coming into Gaza.

I’m not condemning what Israel is doing here- but I’m not seeing a good outcome from (a) preventing Palestinians from fleeing and (b) cutting off food and water from 2 million people.

Meanwhile Hamas is bombing Israeli cities and some rockets are getting through. They promise to bomb Tel Aviv next.

Historically this has been a resounding "no" from Egypt. I don't think it's safe to think the response would have been any different now.

Now, if Egypt said yes to women and children that would be a good thing, even if they then shipped them off to a Shia friendly country, i.e. Iran. Maybe then that 6B could be put to good humanitarian use.

You are correct about Egypt’s refusal to allow refugees in the past. But they do use that road to send food and supplies to Gaza (not arms.) Destroying the road is not a good look for the Israelis IMO. I get it, war is war. But I still don’t know what the goal is for Israel.

Weed out and destroy all of Hamas’s military capabilities. That is the mission.

What will be left of Gaza is up for debate.

It’s not going to end well.

 

[Ministry of Pain]

I think, before this gets out of control, for those of you who are "pro-palestinian" here, we see you and we hear you. We disagree with your basic tenet that Israel is to blame here, mainly bc it flys in the face of facts, but lets agree that no one is blameless here other than the civilians in both cases. Even if you are a "river to the sea" palestinian if you are not actively taking part in this act of terrorism by Hamas, then you are simply another victim of this conflict.

If you are a liberal (meaning "more secular", less Hasidic) Jew, and you were a victim of the violence, and even if you do not support a two state solution, you are a victim of a terrorist attack.

With that said, a good portion of Israelis and Jews are happy to give up territory for peace. 1) Not the whole state of Israel, and 2) Unfortunately, Not all of us.

Bibi's need for the ultra right to be on his side to stay in power has a lot to do with this, and callously, I would not be surprised if this attack wasn't Bibi's "pearl harbor" to push him into a war with Gaza and Hamas when he was so weak politically.

With all that being said, the slaughter of innocents has no moral high ground to stand on. I am an exremely liberal democrat and an extremely liberal Jew, and if I was PM of Israel I would bulldoze Gaza down to the studs. I'd do everything I could to try and "sort" through civilians vs fighters, but a terrorist organization should not be allowed to continue to have a base of operations to attack with impunity. The fact that the border with Egypt to Gaza is closed even before this began should signal that it is not just the Israeli's that are concerned with Hamas, so is Egypt.

You want to argue history and whose land was it first, there are some Indian Tribes who are on line 2 waiting to speak to you.

Independent-
Standing Tall with you on this, went to a High School in Coral Springs/Boca with a large Jewish population
I play tennis with several of the Jewish faith and what hurts me and pulled me in was hearing that many of these people were celebrating at a music festival
The kind of festivals I like to attend and the kind I used to put together 25+ yrs ago and I cannot get the thought out of my head of people flying in on ultralights and causing a massacre.

It was a cowardly act IMHO, much like Pulse Nightclub in Orlando several years ago.
I don't want to fight with anyone about this on here.
I just want to offer my support, you had a lot of likes and approvals with this particular post
You did a terrific job of keeping your emotions in check and your description is how many feel around here.

Thank You @Gatorman

 

[timschochet]

Biden addressing the nation.

 

[IvanKaramazov]

BLM Chicago comes out in favor of Palestine. Note the imagery that they chose here. Hamas used paragliders to assault the music festival where all those kids were killed.

No comment. Just putting this here for documentation so we can have a record of this sort of thing.

(My TL is littered with student clubs and organizations also supporting Palestine/Hamas, but (a) I'm an outlier here and (b) those are plausibly just stupid college kids being stupid. BLM is an adult organization so I think we should give them the respect of taking their position seriously).

Edit: BLM Chicago deleted this tweet, but here's a story about it. We are less than one week out, and people are already trying to deny that this ever happened.

 

[skol asylum]

Sort of related to this topic. Didn't really want to start a new thread. Interesting discussion around social media, X, and Threads and coverage of news. And the possible future of Threads.

How the attacks in Israel are changing Threads

Twitter can’t handle the misinformation, so people are turning to Threads.

www.theverge.com

 

[gianmarco]

This is a hell of a story from someone who's village was attacked.

Nahal Oz

 

[Dickies]

According to the latest reporting, Palestinians in Gaza were begging Egypt to open up the border between Gaza and Egypt. Before the Egyptians could respond, Israeli jets bombed the highway between Gaza and Egypt, effectively cutting off both escape for refugees and blocking all food and water for coming into Gaza.

I’m not condemning what Israel is doing here- but I’m not seeing a good outcome from (a) preventing Palestinians from fleeing and (b) cutting off food and water from 2 million people.

Meanwhile Hamas is bombing Israeli cities and some rockets are getting through. They promise to bomb Tel Aviv next.

I've always felt that Israel's responses to the Palestinians has been overly excessive. I don't pretend to have very much knowledge of this situation, and maybe there is a strategic reason for bombing that highway, but in this instance after what Hamas pulled I think it's given Israel the green light to be as heavy-handed as they'd like.

 

[timschochet]

BLM Chicago comes out in favor of Palestine. Note the imagery that they chose here. Hamas used paragliders to assault the music festival where all those kids were killed.

No comment. Just putting this here for documentation so we can have a record of this sort of thing.

(My TL is littered with student clubs and organizations also supporting Palestine/Hamas, but (a) I'm an outlier here and (b) those are plausibly just stupid college kids being stupid. BLM is an adult organization so I think we should give them the respect of taking their position seriously).

Credit to AOC for condemning antisemitism at a pro-Palestinian rally in Times Square:

AOC knocks 'bigotry and callousness' of Times Square rally for Palestinians

“It should not be hard to shut down hatred and antisemitism where we see it. That is a core tenet of solidarity,” Ocasio-Cortez said.

www.politico.com

 

[gianmarco]

A short video on how this unfolded Saturday

 

[parasaurolophus]

I also think it is important to point out that Israel doesn't really kill innocent civilians. Almost all of the Palestinian non combatants are killed during bombing raids or targeted attacks of Hamas where Hamas has placed civilians in harms way.

That makes Hamas responsible for their death, not Israel.

Even international law makes it clear that the presence of innocent civilians(protected persons) does not prohibit military operations.

It is pretty obvious why such an exemption would exist.

Sorry but this is not completely true.

Gaza is a very condensed area and the people cannot leave. There is nowhere to go. Hamas hasn’t placed these people in harms way; they are in harms way by being in Gaza.

The Israelis can target single buildings no problem. You make it sound like Gaza is the size of a thimble.

Hamas setting up shop in a school or a hospital isn't because they just ran out of room.

Also why won't Egypt let them in via their shared border? Why won't other countries give up land to let them have an area that is completely disconnected from Israel?

Because all of those lead to a two state solution remaining in effect.

 

[Joe Bryant]

BLM Chicago comes out in favor of Palestine. Note the imagery that they chose here. Hamas used paragliders to assault the music festival where all those kids were killed.

No comment. Just putting this here for documentation so we can have a record of this sort of thing.

(My TL is littered with student clubs and organizations also supporting Palestine/Hamas, but (a) I'm an outlier here and (b) those are plausibly just stupid college kids being stupid. BLM is an adult organization so I think we should give them the respect of taking their position seriously).

I had a friend tell me they were surprised by the Pro Palestine support they saw and I was surprised as I hadn't seen it. Then I started seeing stuff like this.

 

[Ministry of Pain]

One of the questions I will never get answered but it was the first thing I thought of when this unfolded and news started spreading...

-How on God's Green Earth did these people think they could get away with launching this attack and not putting 2Million people at risk behind them?
-Did they really have a plan for a war or just a quick punch in the mouth and then run and hide and use humans as shields? Is that a real battle plan?
AK-47s, ultralights and mopeds? That's how you are going to beat Israel?
That's just suicide all the way around, they won't win, all of them will end up dead IMHO, the Hamas fighters.

I'm confused what the end game is with this and how Israel is going to somehow be blamed after they launch a retaliation for Hamas doing this.
I get that it was a holiday and they sorta had their way on Saturday but things are going to end very badly for these Hamas fighters.

How did Mossad fail on this one? I would expect them to hunt down every one of these terrorists door to door if they have to until they can account for all the hostages and people kidnapped against their will. I assume they will have an American which will be a prized hostage

 

[fruity pebbles]

BLM Chicago comes out in favor of Palestine. Note the imagery that they chose here. Hamas used paragliders to assault the music festival where all those kids were killed.

No comment. Just putting this here for documentation so we can have a record of this sort of thing.

(My TL is littered with student clubs and organizations also supporting Palestine/Hamas, but (a) I'm an outlier here and (b) those are plausibly just stupid college kids being stupid. BLM is an adult organization so I think we should give them the respect of taking their position seriously).

One thing to be supportive of Palestine, another to use imagery supportive of mass murder. They are straight up trolling here.

 

[Yankee23Fan]

MSNBC reporter is confirming that Hamas has beheaded some hostage children under the age of two.

JFC

ETA- We cannot expect the Israelis to behave rationally in such a situation. How would we react?

I haven't commented on this simply because I would probably break a few rules and I've made my position on this well known.

But I just read this a well. It appears from multiple credible sources at the moment. I hope it's not true. But if it is I cannot fault Isreal for any retaliatory measure. At this point, peace is the complete obliteration of the enemy. Nothing else warrants discussion.

 

[gianmarco]

Video from last year on Hamas tunnels and how tensions have been brewing

 

[skol asylum]

I think there has to be some separation between supporting the Palestinian people and supporting Hamas. Hamas doesn't represent all Palestinians just as Jewish hardliners like Netanyahu don't represent all Israelis. My point is Im not that surprised that a group like BLM would come out and express support for another group of people who have been marginalized like the Palestinians.

 

[skol asylum]

Uggh. I just clicked on the BLM link with image. I now see what you are saying. That's horrific.

 

[Todem]

I think, before this gets out of control, for those of you who are "pro-palestinian" here, we see you and we hear you. We disagree with your basic tenet that Israel is to blame here, mainly bc it flys in the face of facts, but lets agree that no one is blameless here other than the civilians in both cases. Even if you are a "river to the sea" palestinian if you are not actively taking part in this act of terrorism by Hamas, then you are simply another victim of this conflict.

If you are a liberal (meaning "more secular", less Hasidic) Jew, and you were a victim of the violence, and even if you do not support a two state solution, you are a victim of a terrorist attack.

With that said, a good portion of Israelis and Jews are happy to give up territory for peace. 1) Not the whole state of Israel, and 2) Unfortunately, Not all of us.

Bibi's need for the ultra right to be on his side to stay in power has a lot to do with this, and callously, I would not be surprised if this attack wasn't Bibi's "pearl harbor" to push him into a war with Gaza and Hamas when he was so weak politically.

With all that being said, the slaughter of innocents has no moral high ground to stand on. I am an exremely liberal democrat and an extremely liberal Jew, and if I was PM of Israel I would bulldoze Gaza down to the studs. I'd do everything I could to try and "sort" through civilians vs fighters, but a terrorist organization should not be allowed to continue to have a base of operations to attack with impunity. The fact that the border with Egypt to Gaza is closed even before this began should signal that it is not just the Israeli's that are concerned with Hamas, so is Egypt.

You want to argue history and whose land was it first, there are some Indian Tribes who are on line 2 waiting to speak to you.

Moderate here. I was raised as a conservative Jew but have lived my life as a reformed Jew. Most importantly....all of us whether we are ultra right, orthodox, conservative, reformed......we are all the same brothers and sisters and me in particular the second generation of Holocaust survivors. Israel is my mothers homeland and we have family there.

This was a pre-meditated murder to the highest degree of terror and done with insidious malice.

I said Gaza would be a parking lot (metaphorically). But as I watch this unfold, and hear the stories and see the real videos of what took place.....yeah...Gaza is going to be bulldozed into the sea to weed out this deadly virus known as Hamas.

They are killers. And they will be dealt with now.

What is sad is hundreds of thousands of innocent Palestinians put their fate in these monsters hands. They never could over throw this sick, demented group? It is a tragedy.

 

[timschochet]

MSNBC reporter is confirming that Hamas has beheaded some hostage children under the age of two.

JFC

ETA- We cannot expect the Israelis to behave rationally in such a situation. How would we react?

I haven't commented on this simply because I would probably break a few rules and I've made my position on this well known.

But I just read this a well. It appears from multiple credible sources at the moment. I hope it's not true. But if it is I cannot fault Isreal for any retaliatory measure. At this point, peace is the complete obliteration of the enemy. Nothing else warrants discussion.

Right, it’s hard to fault Israel for anything they do.
But the fact remains that the future of Israel depend on them being cautious and thinking about long term ramifications.

 

[timschochet]

I think, before this gets out of control, for those of you who are "pro-palestinian" here, we see you and we hear you. We disagree with your basic tenet that Israel is to blame here, mainly bc it flys in the face of facts, but lets agree that no one is blameless here other than the civilians in both cases. Even if you are a "river to the sea" palestinian if you are not actively taking part in this act of terrorism by Hamas, then you are simply another victim of this conflict.

If you are a liberal (meaning "more secular", less Hasidic) Jew, and you were a victim of the violence, and even if you do not support a two state solution, you are a victim of a terrorist attack.

With that said, a good portion of Israelis and Jews are happy to give up territory for peace. 1) Not the whole state of Israel, and 2) Unfortunately, Not all of us.

Bibi's need for the ultra right to be on his side to stay in power has a lot to do with this, and callously, I would not be surprised if this attack wasn't Bibi's "pearl harbor" to push him into a war with Gaza and Hamas when he was so weak politically.

With all that being said, the slaughter of innocents has no moral high ground to stand on. I am an exremely liberal democrat and an extremely liberal Jew, and if I was PM of Israel I would bulldoze Gaza down to the studs. I'd do everything I could to try and "sort" through civilians vs fighters, but a terrorist organization should not be allowed to continue to have a base of operations to attack with impunity. The fact that the border with Egypt to Gaza is closed even before this began should signal that it is not just the Israeli's that are concerned with Hamas, so is Egypt.

You want to argue history and whose land was it first, there are some Indian Tribes who are on line 2 waiting to speak to you.

Moderate here. I was raised as a conservative Jew but have lived my life as a reformed Jew. Most importantly....all of us whether we are ultra right, orthodox, conservative, reformed......we are all the same brothers and sisters and me in particular the second generation of Holocaust survivors. Israel in my mothers homeland and we have family there.

This was a pre meditated murder to the highest degree of terror and done with insidious malice.

I said Gaza would be a parking lot (metaphorically). But as I watch this unfold, and hear the stories and see the real videos of what took place.....yeah...Gaza is going to be bulldozed into the sea to wee out this deadly virus known as Hamas.

They are killers. And they will be dealt with now.

What is sad is hundreds of thousands of innocent Palestinians put their fate in these monsters hands. They never could over throw this sick, demented group? It is a tragedy.

I just don’t know that you can weed out Hamas without creating much more Hamas. That’s the dilemma facing Israel.

 

[Ministry of Pain]

I think there has to be some separation between supporting the Palestinian people and supporting Hamas. Hamas doesn't represent all Palestinians just as Jewish hardliners like Netanyahu don't represent all Israelis. My point is Im not that surprised that a group like BLM would come out and express support for another group of people who have been marginalized like the Palestinians.

OK, but when we have groups here that are organizing terror, we deal with them from the inside out, you don't have to send in military or police to my neighborhood, the citizens would make it impossible for a miltant group to operate or work undercover. These groups train somewhere, folks see them and know who they are, they didn't all just appear and team up together.

What would happen if the US made things difficult for IRAN?
and I mean really difficult...

This is not the best time for America to look weak in their partnerships with their allies across the world.
-I read where some feel Putin is responsible, that guy his hands full at the moment, I doubt he signaled for an Israeli conflict right now, but that's just a citizen's opinion, means nothing.

 

[Gatorman]

I think they are content with the incremental ethnic cleansing. Committing genocide brings on a whole other set of problems

Fairly interesting dog whistle here, and let me nip it right in the bud: Israel is not interested in ethnic clensing on any level. There is a reason we have a rememberance day for the Holocaust. In fact, there was a story a few years back of some Palastinians being detained and the forces sharpied numbers on their arms and the whole country of Israel had an issue with that.

along with that is what was written above:

I think they are content with the incremental ethnic cleansing. Committing genocide brings on a whole other set of problems

From 1990 to 2022 the population of Palestine increased from 1.98 million to 5.04 million people

Navin, again, I agree with you to a certain extent. I also understand why BLM has themselves boxed into a position here with being pro-palestinian. As a Democrat (and a liberal one at that) I disagree with the rhetoric that this is the same thing. It is not.

Finally, and I say this again: "people" without power can only do so much in the face of force. Those of you asking "well, why do the Palestinians allow Hamas to do this" I have a story told to me by a patient today (Israeli retired defense force): Before Israel gave Gaza back he had plenty of "citizens" of Gaza who asked him (a Jew) to get them out of there bc Hamas basically was telling hte family "have your kid strap on a suicide belt" for 25K or we will shoot you, your wife, and him if he says no. If you are a peaceful person, there is only so much you can do in the face of violence whether that is from people outside the area you live in or within the area you live in.

The world is full of people who prey on those less fortunate. No one is "blameless" here but for this particular moment Hamas is predominantly and assuredly the guilty party.

 

[dkp993]

All right. Any further response on my part is likely to lead to the sort of contentious debate that the moderators don’t want here. But I strongly disagree with your position. We’ll leave it at that.

Tim- fantastic response here. I’m not speaking to yours or @tonysmiles points but how you deescalated it and didn’t let your discussion get this thread locked down. Thank you, and let it be a lesson for us all.

@Joe Bryant thank you for having some patience and allowing this fantastic thread some room to breathe. I’ve learned a lot via this thread and I hope you continue to exercise the same patience going forward as I believe its an important topic that many are learning from.

 

[Gatorman]

I think, before this gets out of control, for those of you who are "pro-palestinian" here, we see you and we hear you. We disagree with your basic tenet that Israel is to blame here, mainly bc it flys in the face of facts, but lets agree that no one is blameless here other than the civilians in both cases. Even if you are a "river to the sea" palestinian if you are not actively taking part in this act of terrorism by Hamas, then you are simply another victim of this conflict.

If you are a liberal (meaning "more secular", less Hasidic) Jew, and you were a victim of the violence, and even if you do not support a two state solution, you are a victim of a terrorist attack.

With that said, a good portion of Israelis and Jews are happy to give up territory for peace. 1) Not the whole state of Israel, and 2) Unfortunately, Not all of us.

Bibi's need for the ultra right to be on his side to stay in power has a lot to do with this, and callously, I would not be surprised if this attack wasn't Bibi's "pearl harbor" to push him into a war with Gaza and Hamas when he was so weak politically.

With all that being said, the slaughter of innocents has no moral high ground to stand on. I am an exremely liberal democrat and an extremely liberal Jew, and if I was PM of Israel I would bulldoze Gaza down to the studs. I'd do everything I could to try and "sort" through civilians vs fighters, but a terrorist organization should not be allowed to continue to have a base of operations to attack with impunity. The fact that the border with Egypt to Gaza is closed even before this began should signal that it is not just the Israeli's that are concerned with Hamas, so is Egypt.

You want to argue history and whose land was it first, there are some Indian Tribes who are on line 2 waiting to speak to you.

Moderate here. I was raised as a conservative Jew but have lived my life as a reformed Jew. Most importantly....all of us whether we are ultra right, orthodox, conservative, reformed......we are all the same brothers and sisters and me in particular the second generation of Holocaust survivors. Israel in my mothers homeland and we have family there.

This was a pre meditated murder to the highest degree of terror and done with insidious malice.

I said Gaza would be a parking lot (metaphorically). But as I watch this unfold, and hear the stories and see the real videos of what took place.....yeah...Gaza is going to be bulldozed into the sea to wee out this deadly virus known as Hamas.

They are killers. And they will be dealt with now.

What is sad is hundreds of thousands of innocent Palestinians put their fate in these monsters hands. They never could over throw this sick, demented group? It is a tragedy.

I just don’t know that you can weed out Hamas without creating much more Hamas. That’s the dilemma facing Israel.

I think this is part of what they are banking on. Israel becomeing peaceful with the Arab world is bad for Business in Gaza and Tehran.

 

[Yankee23Fan]

MSNBC reporter is confirming that Hamas has beheaded some hostage children under the age of two.

JFC

ETA- We cannot expect the Israelis to behave rationally in such a situation. How would we react?

I haven't commented on this simply because I would probably break a few rules and I've made my position on this well known.

But I just read this a well. It appears from multiple credible sources at the moment. I hope it's not true. But if it is I cannot fault Isreal for any retaliatory measure. At this point, peace is the complete obliteration of the enemy. Nothing else warrants discussion.

Right, it’s hard to fault Israel for anything they do.
But the fact remains that the future of Israel depend on them being cautious and thinking about long term ramifications.

Again, assuming it's true:

There is no future for a country or people who would sit idly by and talk with the people that decapitated babies.

War is awful. Very little good is ever done. The good side and the bad side almost always blur at times and overall throughout the war. Mistakes are always made. The extremes of either side do terrible things. Humans have that propensity and no one in war is ever really wearing a halo of truth and grace. It's evil in every sense.

But this isn't an attack on a military target where there is collateral damage. This isn't a small fraction of a small piece of the enemy attacking Isreal. This wasn't a missed target, drone gone haywire or basic mistake in judgment.

This was a human hand with a knife, standing over a child, and using that hand and knife to destroy any line that creates a tension between good and evil. Hamas is an enemy of mankind. All mankind. Their obliteration is necessary, warranted and now without question, deserved.

 

[Gatorman]

MSNBC reporter is confirming that Hamas has beheaded some hostage children under the age of two.

JFC

ETA- We cannot expect the Israelis to behave rationally in such a situation. How would we react?

I haven't commented on this simply because I would probably break a few rules and I've made my position on this well known.

But I just read this a well. It appears from multiple credible sources at the moment. I hope it's not true. But if it is I cannot fault Isreal for any retaliatory measure. At this point, peace is the complete obliteration of the enemy. Nothing else warrants discussion.

Right, it’s hard to fault Israel for anything they do.
But the fact remains that the future of Israel depend on them being cautious and thinking about long term ramifications.

Again, assuming it's true:

There is no future for a country or people who would sit idly by and talk with the people that decapitated babies.

War is awful. Very little good is ever done. The good side and the bad side almost always blur at times and overall throughout the war. Mistakes are always made. The extremes of either side do terrible things. Humans have that propensity and no one in war is ever really wearing a halo of truth and grace. It's evil in every sense.

But this isn't an attack on a military target where there is collateral damage. This isn't a small fraction of a small piece of the enemy attacking Isreal. This wasn't a missed target, drone gone haywire or basic mistake in judgment.

This was a human hand with a knife, standing over a child, and using that hand and knife to destroy any line that creates a tension between good and evil. Hamas is an enemy of mankind. All mankind. Their obliteration is necessary, warranted and now without question, deserved.

Me an Yankee are agreeing on something. Wow.

 

[Snotbubbles]

MSNBC reporter is confirming that Hamas has beheaded some hostage children under the age of two.

JFC

ETA- We cannot expect the Israelis to behave rationally in such a situation. How would we react?

I haven't commented on this simply because I would probably break a few rules and I've made my position on this well known.

But I just read this a well. It appears from multiple credible sources at the moment. I hope it's not true. But if it is I cannot fault Isreal for any retaliatory measure. At this point, peace is the complete obliteration of the enemy. Nothing else warrants discussion.

I feel like Israel is looking to raze Gaza. As horrible as these terrorists are, I am not comfortable watching genocide unfold. If the US sits back and allows that to happen, we're no better than Hamas.

 

[IvanKaramazov]

MSNBC reporter is confirming that Hamas has beheaded some hostage children under the age of two.

JFC

ETA- We cannot expect the Israelis to behave rationally in such a situation. How would we react?

I haven't commented on this simply because I would probably break a few rules and I've made my position on this well known.

But I just read this a well. It appears from multiple credible sources at the moment. I hope it's not true. But if it is I cannot fault Isreal for any retaliatory measure. At this point, peace is the complete obliteration of the enemy. Nothing else warrants discussion.

I feel like Israel is looking to raze Gaza. As horrible as these terrorists are, I am not comfortable watching genocide unfold. If the US sits back and allows that to happen, we're no better than Hamas.

Razing Gaza isn't genocide any more than razing Berlin was genocide. They're trying to root out a violent faction from a very densely-populated area. There will be a lots of destruction and civilian deaths, but those are incidental.

This is why Israel (and Egypt) were okay treating Gaza as an open-air prison. Its either that, or clear everybody out. Up until a few days ago, "open air prison" was the best course of action, but Hamas has now taken that off the table. So now they're going to bulldoze Gaza (most likely) and we'll have a refugee crisis to sort out. That sucks, but it's a normal part of war, and it is not genocide.

 

[caustic]

I think there has to be some separation between supporting the Palestinian people and supporting Hamas. Hamas doesn't represent all Palestinians just as Jewish hardliners like Netanyahu don't represent all Israelis.

I agree. It should be very easy for these ostensible social justice groups to say something along the lines of, "We sympathize with marginalized Palestinian civilians but condemn Hamas and all its atrocities." The fact that so many can't/won't make this distinction is pretty disgraceful.

 

[Snotbubbles]

I think there has to be some separation between supporting the Palestinian people and supporting Hamas. Hamas doesn't represent all Palestinians just as Jewish hardliners like Netanyahu don't represent all Israelis. My point is Im not that surprised that a group like BLM would come out and express support for another group of people who have been marginalized like the Palestinians.

OK, but when we have groups here that are organizing terror, we deal with them from the inside out, you don't have to send in military or police to my neighborhood, the citizens would make it impossible for a miltant group to operate or work undercover. These groups train somewhere, folks see them and know who they are, they didn't all just appear and team up together.

What would happen if the US made things difficult for IRAN?
and I mean really difficult...

This is not the best time for America to look weak in their partnerships with their allies across the world.
-I read where some feel Putin is responsible, that guy his hands full at the moment, I doubt he signaled for an Israeli conflict right now, but that's just a citizen's opinion, means nothing.

Kind of like what Americans do when gang members and drug dealers take root in their communities. They root them out with the help of police and their neighborhood is cleaned up rather quickly.

 

[timschochet]

MSNBC reporter is confirming that Hamas has beheaded some hostage children under the age of two.

JFC

ETA- We cannot expect the Israelis to behave rationally in such a situation. How would we react?

I haven't commented on this simply because I would probably break a few rules and I've made my position on this well known.

But I just read this a well. It appears from multiple credible sources at the moment. I hope it's not true. But if it is I cannot fault Isreal for any retaliatory measure. At this point, peace is the complete obliteration of the enemy. Nothing else warrants discussion.

I feel like Israel is looking to raze Gaza. As horrible as these terrorists are, I am not comfortable watching genocide unfold. If the US sits back and allows that to happen, we're no better than Hamas.

Razing Gaza isn't genocide any more than razing Berlin was genocide. They're trying to root out a violent faction from a very densely-populated area. There will be a lots of destruction and civilian deaths, but those are incidental.

This is why Israel (and Egypt) were okay treating Gaza as an open-air prison. Its either that, or clear everybody out. Up until a few days ago, "open air prison" was the best course of action, but Hamas has now taken that off the table. So now they're going to bulldoze Gaza (most likely) and we'll have a refugee crisis to sort out. That sucks, but it's a normal part of war, and it is not genocide.

Well first off let’s not forget that we didn’t raze Berlin. We bombed Berlin, but it was the Russians who went in there and razed them to the ground. And yes they behaved like savages; and who can blame them after the way the Nazis treated the Russians? But we didn’t behave that way, we fed the people we conquered, and the subsequent history of Europe hinges on the difference between our behavior and that of the Soviet Union.

And that is the difference between the West and the rest of the world- how we conduct ourselves. So far, despite all of their errors and wrong decisions over the years, Israel has been, since its birth, part of the West, part of the civilized world. This current event threatens that. Let’s hope they stay part of the West.

 

[Snotbubbles]

MSNBC reporter is confirming that Hamas has beheaded some hostage children under the age of two.

JFC

ETA- We cannot expect the Israelis to behave rationally in such a situation. How would we react?

I haven't commented on this simply because I would probably break a few rules and I've made my position on this well known.

But I just read this a well. It appears from multiple credible sources at the moment. I hope it's not true. But if it is I cannot fault Isreal for any retaliatory measure. At this point, peace is the complete obliteration of the enemy. Nothing else warrants discussion.

I feel like Israel is looking to raze Gaza. As horrible as these terrorists are, I am not comfortable watching genocide unfold. If the US sits back and allows that to happen, we're no better than Hamas.

Razing Gaza isn't genocide any more than razing Berlin was genocide. They're trying to root out a violent faction from a very densely-populated area. There will be a lots of destruction and civilian deaths, but those are incidental.

This is why Israel (and Egypt) were okay treating Gaza as an open-air prison. Its either that, or clear everybody out. Up until a few days ago, "open air prison" was the best course of action, but Hamas has now taken that off the table. So now they're going to bulldoze Gaza (most likely) and we'll have a refugee crisis to sort out. That sucks, but it's a normal part of war, and it is not genocide.

I love how we're just treating death as incidental. It's ok, depending on which side of the fence you're on. The Israeli deaths, not incidental. The Palestinians, incidental.

 

[unckeyherb]

So answer me this, in the most non-political way possible, why doesn't Egypt open up?

Seems to be apretty subjective point in time to start keeping score of who has slaughtered more innocents in this conflict.

Navin,

Its a fair point, and one that many Jews and Israelis agree with you on, but it is hard to advocate for them when they are slaughtering your own people. It's always a neat little thing to make Israel the agressor in this conflict, but the absolute truth kind of flies in the face of that. Israeli's basically want security. If the PA or Hamas wanted the same thing this conflict would be over. Sure, it would take a while for either side to fully trust the other, but look at Israel and Egypt and you can see what peace can look like.

What do you consider the absolute truth? Are we taking into consideration Deir Yassin? Plan Dalet? King David Hotel? The argument that the Israelis are happy with coexisting seems a little far fetched

I don't think it is debatable that the Israelis were willing to coexist. They have had the ability to wipe the Palestinians off the map and haven't done so.

I use the past tense because perhaps that has now changed.

I think they are content with the incremental ethnic cleansing. Committing genocide brings on a whole other set of problems

Wouldn't a prerequisite to genocide be that the Palestinian population be decreasing? Because its not. At all. Kind of a poor attempt at genocide.

 

[parasaurolophus]

I think there has to be some separation between supporting the Palestinian people and supporting Hamas. Hamas doesn't represent all Palestinians just as Jewish hardliners like Netanyahu don't represent all Israelis. My point is Im not that surprised that a group like BLM would come out and express support for another group of people who have been marginalized like the Palestinians.

I think there needs to be less separation between supporting Palestine and supporting Hamas.

Look at that guy in New York that was leading the fiery protest. He was saying some absolutely terrible things. I didn't see any people getting up and walking away.

Look at the footage from the Sydney Opera house.

Palestinians have zero problems advocating for the destruction of Israel. Palestinian sympathizers frequently reveal their true selves as well.

All of these protests are in response to Hamas killing Israelis. That alone tells everybody what they need to know.

Imagine sitting at home and seeing the news of what happened and then deciding that hey, man I really need to get out there and support....PALESTINE?!?!

That is what motivated them to get out the door. Not last week. Not last month. In response to a massacre. Of Israelis and Jews.

Sorry but when people scream at you who they are, just listen to them.

 

[Gatorman]

MSNBC reporter is confirming that Hamas has beheaded some hostage children under the age of two.

JFC

ETA- We cannot expect the Israelis to behave rationally in such a situation. How would we react?

I haven't commented on this simply because I would probably break a few rules and I've made my position on this well known.

But I just read this a well. It appears from multiple credible sources at the moment. I hope it's not true. But if it is I cannot fault Isreal for any retaliatory measure. At this point, peace is the complete obliteration of the enemy. Nothing else warrants discussion.

I feel like Israel is looking to raze Gaza. As horrible as these terrorists are, I am not comfortable watching genocide unfold. If the US sits back and allows that to happen, we're no better than Hamas.

I believe you may be right, and I agree that Israel is not likely to be "level headed" this time. Attacking Israel during a Jewish Holiday and the carnage that was wrought is not going to be handled gently. Best way I can explain it: Imagine if 9/11 happened on Memorial day instead of a random tuesday in september.

 

[Dickies]

I think there has to be some separation between supporting the Palestinian people and supporting Hamas. Hamas doesn't represent all Palestinians just as Jewish hardliners like Netanyahu don't represent all Israelis. My point is Im not that surprised that a group like BLM would come out and express support for another group of people who have been marginalized like the Palestinians.

OK, but when we have groups here that are organizing terror, we deal with them from the inside out, you don't have to send in military or police to my neighborhood, the citizens would make it impossible for a miltant group to operate or work undercover. These groups train somewhere, folks see them and know who they are, they didn't all just appear and team up together.

What would happen if the US made things difficult for IRAN?
and I mean really difficult...

This is not the best time for America to look weak in their partnerships with their allies across the world.
-I read where some feel Putin is responsible, that guy his hands full at the moment, I doubt he signaled for an Israeli conflict right now, but that's just a citizen's opinion, means nothing.

Kind of like what Americans do when gang members and drug dealers take root in their communities. They root them out with the help of police and their neighborhood is cleaned up rather quickly.

This is sarcasm, right?

 

[Manster]

whatever... this is why there is no political forum. can't even go two pages.

I'm out

In my world, religion <> politics. I’m fine with any group of beliefs dying that are supportive of Hamas - it just so happens that most of these are religious beliefs. It’s totally naive to think otherwise.

Your statement, at a minimum, was extremely judgemental. You are essentially calling anyone who has religious beliefs an idiot. It's an extremely narrow minded view that only focuses on the evils that men do, in the name of religion.

 

[Snotbubbles]

I think there has to be some separation between supporting the Palestinian people and supporting Hamas. Hamas doesn't represent all Palestinians just as Jewish hardliners like Netanyahu don't represent all Israelis. My point is Im not that surprised that a group like BLM would come out and express support for another group of people who have been marginalized like the Palestinians.

OK, but when we have groups here that are organizing terror, we deal with them from the inside out, you don't have to send in military or police to my neighborhood, the citizens would make it impossible for a miltant group to operate or work undercover. These groups train somewhere, folks see them and know who they are, they didn't all just appear and team up together.

What would happen if the US made things difficult for IRAN?
and I mean really difficult...

This is not the best time for America to look weak in their partnerships with their allies across the world.
-I read where some feel Putin is responsible, that guy his hands full at the moment, I doubt he signaled for an Israeli conflict right now, but that's just a citizen's opinion, means nothing.

Kind of like what Americans do when gang members and drug dealers take root in their communities. They root them out with the help of police and their neighborhood is cleaned up rather quickly.

This is sarcasm, right?

Yes.

 

[Snotbubbles]

MSNBC reporter is confirming that Hamas has beheaded some hostage children under the age of two.

JFC

ETA- We cannot expect the Israelis to behave rationally in such a situation. How would we react?

I haven't commented on this simply because I would probably break a few rules and I've made my position on this well known.

But I just read this a well. It appears from multiple credible sources at the moment. I hope it's not true. But if it is I cannot fault Isreal for any retaliatory measure. At this point, peace is the complete obliteration of the enemy. Nothing else warrants discussion.

I feel like Israel is looking to raze Gaza. As horrible as these terrorists are, I am not comfortable watching genocide unfold. If the US sits back and allows that to happen, we're no better than Hamas.

I believe you may be right, and I agree that Israel is not likely to be "level headed" this time. Attacking Israel during a Jewish Holiday and the carnage that was wrought is not going to be handled gently. Best way I can explain it: Imagine if 9/11 happened on Memorial day instead of a random tuesday in september.

Doesn't change my stance one bit.

 

[Todem]

MSNBC reporter is confirming that Hamas has beheaded some hostage children under the age of two.

JFC

ETA- We cannot expect the Israelis to behave rationally in such a situation. How would we react?

I haven't commented on this simply because I would probably break a few rules and I've made my position on this well known.

But I just read this a well. It appears from multiple credible sources at the moment. I hope it's not true. But if it is I cannot fault Isreal for any retaliatory measure. At this point, peace is the complete obliteration of the enemy. Nothing else warrants discussion.

Right, it’s hard to fault Israel for anything they do.
But the fact remains that the future of Israel depend on them being cautious and thinking about long term ramifications.

Agreed. I don’t expect them to be what Hamas is......and Hamas is depending on it. But there will be a lot of destruction to Gaza.....and it’s unfortunate for the innocent.

It’s just a terrible no win situation.

 

[Dickies]

Uggh. I just clicked on the BLM link with image. I now see what you are saying. That's horrific.

Yea, I'm generally supportive of BLM and try to stay neutral on the Palestine/Israel conflict, but WTF is wrong with these people?

 

[parasaurolophus]

believe you may be right, and I agree that Israel is not likely to be "level headed" this time. Attacking Israel during a Jewish Holiday and the carnage that was wrought is not going to be handled gently. Best way I can explain it: Imagine if 9/11 happened on Memorial day instead of a random tuesday in september.

And then afterwards went door to door in a subdivision and rounded up babies and beheaded them.

 

[unckeyherb]

MSNBC reporter is confirming that Hamas has beheaded some hostage children under the age of two.

JFC

ETA- We cannot expect the Israelis to behave rationally in such a situation. How would we react?

I haven't commented on this simply because I would probably break a few rules and I've made my position on this well known.

But I just read this a well. It appears from multiple credible sources at the moment. I hope it's not true. But if it is I cannot fault Isreal for any retaliatory measure. At this point, peace is the complete obliteration of the enemy. Nothing else warrants discussion.

I feel like Israel is looking to raze Gaza. As horrible as these terrorists are, I am not comfortable watching genocide unfold. If the US sits back and allows that to happen, we're no better than Hamas.

Razing Gaza isn't genocide any more than razing Berlin was genocide. They're trying to root out a violent faction from a very densely-populated area. There will be a lots of destruction and civilian deaths, but those are incidental.

This is why Israel (and Egypt) were okay treating Gaza as an open-air prison. Its either that, or clear everybody out. Up until a few days ago, "open air prison" was the best course of action, but Hamas has now taken that off the table. So now they're going to bulldoze Gaza (most likely) and we'll have a refugee crisis to sort out. That sucks, but it's a normal part of war, and it is not genocide.

Agree, unfortunately, but perhaps the rest of the Arab world can open their doors to people that look like them, sound like them, are culturally consistent with them.

 

[Orange&Blue]

Palestinians had a chance at a 2 party state. they declined in 1948 . they had a chance at oslo accords, but rejected that when hamas took over which rejects a 2 party state

The Jewish settlers had a chance at a one party state, in multiple locations, where no one would ever screw with them. And they rejected it.

What’s the Truth about … the Uganda Plan? - Jewish Action

Misconception: The early Zionists were offered, and nearly accepted, Uganda as the Jewish homeland. This demonstrates that Zionist Leader Theodor

jewishaction.com

really? nobody would bither them? because there have never been any wars in africa due to British/french/etc drawing arbitrary lines of countries.