Was this date rape? (1 Viewer)

[FUBAR]

Sounds like rape.

Everyone trying to justify it - welcome to the world of prosecution and the challenges this area presents.

 

[PatsWillWin]

In a factual, real-world, what-actually-happened sense, I might consider this rape. I say "might" because it's not even clear whether or not she thinks it was rape, which is kinda a prerequisite.

In a legal, ruin-this-guy's-life-imprison-him sense, there's no way I could vote to convict someone for rape based on what facts we have here. I assume that in order to convict someone of rape, you have to believe (beyond a reasonable doubt, etc.) that he reasonably believed she was not consenting to sex. Given that she admits to enjoying being carried to his bedroom (after previously tell him it wasn't a good idea) and everything up to the point of getting naked, and that she never said no, I don't see how you can convict this guy of rape. Obviously the whole pinning her arms between them thing sounds grey-areaish, but grey-areaish is not enough to convict him of rape, particularly after she'd already said no, but changed her mind before.

I feel bad for your friend if she's suffering mentally/emotionally/etc. from this (although it sounds like she may not be).

 

[PatsWillWin]

Sounds like rape.

Everyone trying to justify it - welcome to the world of prosecution and the challenges this area presents.

Yeah I think there's two different questions being answered:

1) Was this actually rape?

2) Would the facts support a conviction of rape?

Obviously two very different questions/answers.

 

[Otis]

I am pretty willing to accept any pov from rape to the guy is a total ### clown that knew she wasn't into it. I can't however buy into the fact that she was into it. I have spoken to her in person so I have the benefit of that while others do not.

You're also refusing to consider a third possibility which is that he thought she wanted to and didn't understand her Vulcan mind meld way of saying no without saying no.

All of these are possible. You're clearly biased given that you know her.

 

[Otis]

I obviously had an opinion when I started this thread but wanted to just present the story without my feelings on the topic first.

I feel pretty confident nothing about this was a turn on to her once she put her hands on his shoulders and he pinned her. Not sure why her liking him carrying her to the room is a factor. She was also turned on by the kissing on the couch. She still has every right to stop him at any point regardless of what has taken place prior.

What has taken place prior is of course relevant.

Yes, of course she can at any time change her mind. They can enjoy making out and if she doesn't consent to go further and he physically forces it on her, that's rape. She can change course at any time.

But what happens earlier is relevant, at least to the question of whether he had any idea that she apparently changed her mind. They're getting hot and heavy on the couch. She claims that she was turned on by him being forceful and picking her up and carrying her to the bedroom. All of that is relevant to this thing from the guy's perspective. She's really into it, they're getting physical, it's getting hot and heavy, he picks her up to go to his room, and she seems to love it. They get into the bed. At some point everyone's clothes have presumably come off (I don't think I noticed this detail in your story). They're getting physical. She's not fighting it off, or saying no. She put her hands on his chest or shoulders. That's the universal sign for "don't rape me" under these circumstances?!

Sex is a physical act. It sounds as though she was consenting at least to heavy, physical action. She can't do that and then hit a point at which she's unsure in her head and decide "well, I'll say no in my mind, let's see where this goes," and suddenly this poor schlub is pegged a rapist?

I'm a dad of two girls, a brother of two younger sisters, and as firm a believer as anyone in protecting women and being a gentleman. But the threshold you're setting here is a bit ridiculous, unless there are some other facts we're missing. Just my opinion.

 

[Otis]

And you seem to take issue with the "pegging the arms down" thing. Sounds like something that pretty much happens all the the time as part of consensual sex. We're hearing the facts third hand, and the facts are limited, and they're coming from someone who apparently doesn't seem to think this was rape, but we're also talking about years old memories, so it's hard to say what the hands on the chest or pinning the arms down meant. That could mean passionate consensual sex, or it could mean she didn't want to do it and that was her (fail) way of saying no and he just didn't read it that way, or it could be she violently tried to fight him off and he violently fought back and knowingly raped her. That last possibility doesn't seem to come through in the way you describe it, but it's of course possible.

 

[comfortably numb]

Condom or no condom?

Who rapes with a condom?

This is actually a good question.

 

[Arsenal of Doom]

It seems like people are reading a lot into a really limited description of what happened, probably from both sides. People saying it's not rape seem to be reading into this: "He then picks her up and carries her into the bedroom. She admits that she thought it was a turn on that he did that and gets a little caught up in the moment," that she gave some physical form of consent.

I think that's a problematic reading based on the description of everything else written around that. Particularly once they get to the point of actual sex and she is described as totally freezing up. If the guy was using her level of physical engagement as his measure of consent in the moments after he picks her up and carries her into his room, then he should been a little more aware that this was going on: "She also said all she wanted was for him to finish so it would be over. She told me she just went some where else in her mind as well."

 

[Arsenal of Doom]

I also want to reiterate what I said earlier, this exchange "he asks her to go to the bedroom and she says I don't think that's a good idea right now," as written is explicit verbal non-consent. Anything falling short of yes is a no when it comes to consent.

Doesn't mean that consent can't come after that at some point, but I think it's probably a good standard that if you get a verbal no at any point you really should get a verbal yes before going much farther.

 

[comfortably numb]

I also want to reiterate what I said earlier, this exchange "he asks her to go to the bedroom and she says I don't think that's a good idea right now," as written is explicit verbal non-consent. Anything falling short of yes is a no when it comes to consent.

Doesn't mean that consent can't come after that at some point, but I think it's probably a good standard that if you get a verbal no at any point you really should get a verbal yes before going much farther.

I think I've raped my wife a dozen times this year.

 

[PatsWillWin]

It seems like people are reading a lot into a really limited description of what happened, probably from both sides. People saying it's not rape seem to be reading into this: "He then picks her up and carries her into the bedroom. She admits that she thought it was a turn on that he did that and gets a little caught up in the moment," that she gave some physical form of consent.

I think that's a problematic reading based on the description of everything else written around that. Particularly once they get to the point of actual sex and she is described as totally freezing up. If the guy was using her level of physical engagement as his measure of consent in the moments after he picks her up and carries her into his room, then he should been a little more aware that this was going on: "She also said all she wanted was for him to finish so it would be over. She told me she just went some where else in her mind as well."

This doesn't make sense sense.

The "physical form of consent" is not just being carried upstairs, enjoying it. She also makes out with him and lets him undress her before she decides that maybe she didn't want to do this. Making out and taking clothes off are physical. "Wanting" him to finish so it'd be over and "going other places in her mind" are not physical. The grey area in this situation has nothing to do with his inability to read her mind, if anything, it has to do with the pushing her down and pinning her arms between them.

 

[PatsWillWin]

I also want to reiterate what I said earlier, this exchange "he asks her to go to the bedroom and she says I don't think that's a good idea right now," as written is explicit verbal non-consent. Anything falling short of yes is a no when it comes to consent.

Doesn't mean that consent can't come after that at some point, but I think it's probably a good standard that if you get a verbal no at any point you really should get a verbal yes before going much farther.

So she giggles/laughs/otherwise enjoys being carried upstairs (moments after saying that she doesn't want to do that), is happy to make out with him and let him take all of her clothes off, and he is supposed to stop and request explicit verbal consent to officially over-ride her previous verbal non-consent?

Consent doesn't have to be verbal, legally, or just in the real world. Sure, it'd make things simpler, but her actions after saying no spoke much louder than her words. She gave all the signs you can give that she wanted to get it on, up to (possibly) when she tried to set up or push him, and even then, she, for whatever reason, didn't clearly express that she didn't want to have sex.

 

[FUBAR]

In a factual, real-world, what-actually-happened sense, I might consider this rape. I say "might" because it's not even clear whether or not she thinks it was rape, which is kinda a prerequisite.

In a legal, ruin-this-guy's-life-imprison-him sense, there's no way I could vote to convict someone for rape based on what facts we have here. I assume that in order to convict someone of rape, you have to believe (beyond a reasonable doubt, etc.) that he reasonably believed she was not consenting to sex. Given that she admits to enjoying being carried to his bedroom (after previously tell him it wasn't a good idea) and everything up to the point of getting naked, and that she never said no, I don't see how you can convict this guy of rape. Obviously the whole pinning her arms between them thing sounds grey-areaish, but grey-areaish is not enough to convict him of rape, particularly after she'd already said no, but changed her mind before.

I feel bad for your friend if she's suffering mentally/emotionally/etc. from this (although it sounds like she may not be).

It's not whether he reasonably believed... It's whether a reasonable person would have believed...

I also don't care if she believes "she was raped", i care if what she believes happened constitutes rape. If she was reasonably in fear, it is quite possible to get a conviction here. Obviously we'd investigate further.

 

[Arsenal of Doom]

It seems like people are reading a lot into a really limited description of what happened, probably from both sides. People saying it's not rape seem to be reading into this: "He then picks her up and carries her into the bedroom. She admits that she thought it was a turn on that he did that and gets a little caught up in the moment," that she gave some physical form of consent.

I think that's a problematic reading based on the description of everything else written around that. Particularly once they get to the point of actual sex and she is described as totally freezing up. If the guy was using her level of physical engagement as his measure of consent in the moments after he picks her up and carries her into his room, then he should been a little more aware that this was going on: "She also said all she wanted was for him to finish so it would be over. She told me she just went some where else in her mind as well."

This doesn't make sense sense.

The "physical form of consent" is not just being carried upstairs, enjoying it. She also makes out with him and lets him undress her before she decides that maybe she didn't want to do this. Making out and taking clothes off are physical. "Wanting" him to finish so it'd be over and "going other places in her mind" are not physical. The grey area in this situation has nothing to do with his inability to read her mind, if anything, it has to do with the pushing her down and pinning her arms between them.

I also want to reiterate what I said earlier, this exchange "he asks her to go to the bedroom and she says I don't think that's a good idea right now," as written is explicit verbal non-consent. Anything falling short of yes is a no when it comes to consent.

Doesn't mean that consent can't come after that at some point, but I think it's probably a good standard that if you get a verbal no at any point you really should get a verbal yes before going much farther.

So she giggles/laughs/otherwise enjoys being carried upstairs (moments after saying that she doesn't want to do that), is happy to make out with him and let him take all of her clothes off, and he is supposed to stop and request explicit verbal consent to officially over-ride her previous verbal non-consent?

Consent doesn't have to be verbal, legally, or just in the real world. Sure, it'd make things simpler, but her actions after saying no spoke much louder than her words. She gave all the signs you can give that she wanted to get it on, up to (possibly) when she tried to set up or push him, and even then, she, for whatever reason, didn't clearly express that she didn't want to have sex.

In both the last two examples you give you are reading in facts that weren't given. It doesn't say anywhere that she giggles, laughs, continues to make out with him and is happy to have her clothes taken off, unless you want to extrapolate that from "she gets a little caught up in the moment."

It also true that we don't have a description of what was happening physically when she was going to a different place in her head and just wanting it to be over. The only thing we do know (from the story as told) is that she initially does not agree to have anything happen and is ultimately put in a position where physical force is used to make her have have sex that she felt uncomfortable with.

I don't disagree at all that physical consent is a thing, but in particular if it's going to override verbal non-consent it would need a really high standard. To the point that making any attempt after that to get up or push him away meant no physical consent ever happened.

 

[TxBuckeye]

I obviously had an opinion when I started this thread but wanted to just present the story without my feelings on the topic first.

I'm pretty confused why you posted it then and asked opinions when you obviously already had your mind made up. Why didn't you just post the thread like "Hey, this chick was raped, agree with me!" Because it's fairly apparent that's what you really wanted.

 

[AAABatteries]

I'd like a lawyer to tell us if "I'm not sure that's a good idea right now" constitutes verbal non-consent. I can think of several scenarios where I wouldn't think it was without knowing context, inflection, etc but that's with no knowledge of the law.

 

[PatsWillWin]

It seems like people are reading a lot into a really limited description of what happened, probably from both sides. People saying it's not rape seem to be reading into this: "He then picks her up and carries her into the bedroom. She admits that she thought it was a turn on that he did that and gets a little caught up in the moment," that she gave some physical form of consent.

I think that's a problematic reading based on the description of everything else written around that. Particularly once they get to the point of actual sex and she is described as totally freezing up. If the guy was using her level of physical engagement as his measure of consent in the moments after he picks her up and carries her into his room, then he should been a little more aware that this was going on: "She also said all she wanted was for him to finish so it would be over. She told me she just went some where else in her mind as well."

This doesn't make sense sense.

The "physical form of consent" is not just being carried upstairs, enjoying it. She also makes out with him and lets him undress her before she decides that maybe she didn't want to do this. Making out and taking clothes off are physical. "Wanting" him to finish so it'd be over and "going other places in her mind" are not physical. The grey area in this situation has nothing to do with his inability to read her mind, if anything, it has to do with the pushing her down and pinning her arms between them.

I also want to reiterate what I said earlier, this exchange "he asks her to go to the bedroom and she says I don't think that's a good idea right now," as written is explicit verbal non-consent. Anything falling short of yes is a no when it comes to consent.

Doesn't mean that consent can't come after that at some point, but I think it's probably a good standard that if you get a verbal no at any point you really should get a verbal yes before going much farther.

So she giggles/laughs/otherwise enjoys being carried upstairs (moments after saying that she doesn't want to do that), is happy to make out with him and let him take all of her clothes off, and he is supposed to stop and request explicit verbal consent to officially over-ride her previous verbal non-consent?

Consent doesn't have to be verbal, legally, or just in the real world. Sure, it'd make things simpler, but her actions after saying no spoke much louder than her words. She gave all the signs you can give that she wanted to get it on, up to (possibly) when she tried to set up or push him, and even then, she, for whatever reason, didn't clearly express that she didn't want to have sex.

In both the last two examples you give you are reading in facts that weren't given. It doesn't say anywhere that she giggles, laughs, continues to make out with him and is happy to have her clothes taken off, unless you want to extrapolate that from "she gets a little caught up in the moment."

It also true that we don't have a description of what was happening physically when she was going to a different place in her head and just wanting it to be over. The only thing we do know (from the story as told) is that she initially does not agree to have anything happen and is ultimately put in a position where physical force is used to make her have have sex that she felt uncomfortable with.

I don't disagree at all that physical consent is a thing, but in particular if it's going to override verbal non-consent it would need a really high standard. To the point that making any attempt after that to get up or push him away meant no physical consent ever happened.

I think allowing yourself to be carried upstairs, making out with a person, and letting him undress you are a pretty high standard and render the earlier "I don't think that's a good idea" utterly irrelevant.

We don't even have to assume it was utterly irrelevant - we know it was. We know, from her, that she said no, then was happy with getting carried upstairs and undressed, and it wasn't until she was naked that the possible "no, I don't want to do this" feeling came in.

She said no. Then she acted yes. Then she felt no. Holding him to the initial "no" when she herself changed her mind is asinine.

I don't feel 100% comfortable saying it wasn't "rape" in a non-legal sense, but again, where it gets hazy for me is the pushing/pinning, and has absolutely nothing to do with when she said no before changing her mind to yes.

 

[fatness]

I obviously had an opinion when I started this thread but wanted to just present the story without my feelings on the topic first.

I'm pretty confused why you posted it then and asked opinions when you obviously already had your mind made up. Why didn't you just post the thread like "Hey, this chick was raped, agree with me!" Because it's fairly apparent that's what you really wanted.

He just became friends with her recently. She told him the story. He doesn't know if what's related is true or not. I think he's just sticking up for a friend he made recently, "defending her honor" or whatever you might call it.

 

[PatsWillWin]

I'd like a lawyer to tell us if "I'm not sure that's a good idea right now" constitutes verbal non-consent. I can think of several scenarios where I wouldn't think it was without knowing context, inflection, etc but that's with no knowledge of the law.

I'd be surprised if "non-consent" was even a thing. Before you have sex with someone, you have to have consent. It doesn't specifically have to be verbal, it just has to be what a reasonable person would consider consent, blah blah blah

 

[FUBAR]

I'd like a lawyer to tell us if "I'm not sure that's a good idea right now" constitutes verbal non-consent. I can think of several scenarios where I wouldn't think it was without knowing context, inflection, etc but that's with no knowledge of the law.

I'd be surprised if "non-consent" was even a thing. Before you have sex with someone, you have to have consent. It doesn't specifically have to be verbal, it just has to be what a reasonable person would consider consent, blah blah blah

Right. Her response indicates she did not consent, but it's not definitive by itself.

 

[PatsWillWin]

I'd like a lawyer to tell us if "I'm not sure that's a good idea right now" constitutes verbal non-consent. I can think of several scenarios where I wouldn't think it was without knowing context, inflection, etc but that's with no knowledge of the law.

I'd be surprised if "non-consent" was even a thing. Before you have sex with someone, you have to have consent. It doesn't specifically have to be verbal, it just has to be what a reasonable person would consider consent, blah blah blah

Right. Her response indicates she did not consent, but it's not definitive by itself.

Which response indicates that she did not consent?

 

[Arsenal of Doom]

I think allowing yourself to be carried upstairs, making out with a person, and letting him undress you are a pretty high standard and render the earlier "I don't think that's a good idea" utterly irrelevant.

We don't even have to assume it was utterly irrelevant - we know it was. We know, from her, that she said no, then was happy with getting carried upstairs and undressed, and it wasn't until she was naked that the possible "no, I don't want to do this" feeling came in.

She said no. Then she acted yes. Then she felt no. Holding him to the initial "no" when she herself changed her mind is asinine.

I don't feel 100% comfortable saying it wasn't "rape" in a non-legal sense, but again, where it gets hazy for me is the pushing/pinning, and has absolutely nothing to do with when she said no before changing her mind to yes.

We're still hung up on reading into the information provided. Being turned on by being carried into a bedroom, and consenting to that happening are two different things. As I mentioned earlier, it's not uncommon for victims of sexual assault to be physically aroused. I read the story as her conveying that's how she felt to the OP, not necessarily implying that she felt that was consensual activity let alone anything that happened after that.

 

[FUBAR]

I'd like a lawyer to tell us if "I'm not sure that's a good idea right now" constitutes verbal non-consent. I can think of several scenarios where I wouldn't think it was without knowing context, inflection, etc but that's with no knowledge of the law.

I'd be surprised if "non-consent" was even a thing. Before you have sex with someone, you have to have consent. It doesn't specifically have to be verbal, it just has to be what a reasonable person would consider consent, blah blah blah

Right. Her response indicates she did not consent, but it's not definitive by itself.

Which response indicates that she did not consent?

Pretty much everything

 

[PatsWillWin]

I think allowing yourself to be carried upstairs, making out with a person, and letting him undress you are a pretty high standard and render the earlier "I don't think that's a good idea" utterly irrelevant.

We don't even have to assume it was utterly irrelevant - we know it was. We know, from her, that she said no, then was happy with getting carried upstairs and undressed, and it wasn't until she was naked that the possible "no, I don't want to do this" feeling came in.

She said no. Then she acted yes. Then she felt no. Holding him to the initial "no" when she herself changed her mind is asinine.

I don't feel 100% comfortable saying it wasn't "rape" in a non-legal sense, but again, where it gets hazy for me is the pushing/pinning, and has absolutely nothing to do with when she said no before changing her mind to yes.

We're still hung up on reading into the information provided. Being turned on by being carried into a bedroom, and consenting to that happening are two different things. As I mentioned earlier, it's not uncommon for victims of sexual assault to be physically aroused. I read the story as her conveying that's how she felt to the OP, not necessarily implying that she felt that was consensual activity let alone anything that happened after that.

We need to clarify something here.

We can look at it from her perspective or from his perspective. Since most are talking in legal terms with respect to whether or not this was "rape," I'm looking at it from his perspective because being guilty of (the crime of) rape requires that he had sex with her without her giving him consent. The definition of what "her giving him consent" would require is clearly wrapped up in the whole "what a reasonable person would believe." There is no strict definition. There is no requirement that a "previous verbal non-consent be overruled by an ensuing verbal reversal of said consent." Everything between those quotes is made up jibberish. Sure, it might be prudent, or the smart thing, to make extra sure that she's comfortable with every single development. It's probably what I would do. But we're not talking about whether this guy was prudent, or nice, or a creep. We're talking about whether he's a rapist.

She comes over. They make out. He proposes they go to the bedroom. She says that's not a good idea. He then picks her up. Sure, I was editorializing before saying she was "giggling," we don't know that. But we know what was in her mind (she enjoyed it) and she didn't say anything to the OP suggesting that she resisted or gave any kind of signal that this was not a welcome development (which makes sense, since we know she liked it). She gets carried into the bedroom, lets him undress her. She's into it.

So you're the guy. You're telling me that up to this point, you wouldn't consider that consent? Or, more appropriately, that a reasonable person would not consider that consent? You think a reasonable person would think "Oh ####, she might be paralyzed with fear!" He very likely doesn't consider himself a rapist or a sexual predator. Why would he reasonably think her behavior is out of fear?

Of course, from that moment on, things get into a grey area for me. The pushing her down/pinning her arms don't sound great. But I think it's a very hazy area as she never said anything, and it might have been reasonable for him to think that whatever the movement/pushing was was just part of the sex, particularly in the absence of her telling him to stop. I don't know, but I do know that there's not enough there that I'd vote to convict (based on the information that we have).

Internally, from her perspective, could she have decided that she didn't want to have sex? Obviously, yes. And if he ended up having sex with her, then I guess in some (non-legal) way you could say she was "raped" since she had sex without consenting to it. But you can't just decide inside your brain, after making out with a guy, letting him carry you into his bedroom and take off your clothes, that you don't want to go through with it, and never bother to inform the guy of your change of heart. If you no longer want to have sex with someone you just let take your clothes off, you probably shouldn't keep it a secret. She says after he pushed her, that she was scared, which I get, but still strikes me as odd just to never say anything.

Anyway, I'm probably done going back and forth about this. Either way it's not a great situation, and I feel bad for her if she feels violated, etc.

 

[PatsWillWin]

I'd like a lawyer to tell us if "I'm not sure that's a good idea right now" constitutes verbal non-consent. I can think of several scenarios where I wouldn't think it was without knowing context, inflection, etc but that's with no knowledge of the law.

I'd be surprised if "non-consent" was even a thing. Before you have sex with someone, you have to have consent. It doesn't specifically have to be verbal, it just has to be what a reasonable person would consider consent, blah blah blah

Right. Her response indicates she did not consent, but it's not definitive by itself.

Which response indicates that she did not consent?

Pretty much everything

The making out? Taking her clothes off? Not giving any clear indication she wasn't consenting? Everything, really?

 

[⚡DEADHEAD⚡]

In a factual, real-world, what-actually-happened sense, I might consider this rape. I say "might" because it's not even clear whether or not she thinks it was rape, which is kinda a prerequisite.

Absolutely wrong. There are a number of issues ranging from sexual harassment to kidnapping where the victim may either initially or over time think that s/he has not been subjected to something unlawful when in fact, something unlawful happened.

 

[Papa Georgio]

I obviously had an opinion when I started this thread but wanted to just present the story without my feelings on the topic first.

I'm pretty confused why you posted it then and asked opinions when you obviously already had your mind made up. Why didn't you just post the thread like "Hey, this chick was raped, agree with me!" Because it's fairly apparent that's what you really wanted.

I'm not 18. Yes I have an opinion but wanted to see what others thought. I was looking for exactly what is taking place a discussion on the event. I don't feel like I have explained the facts well.

I believe she does in fact feel like it was rape but does not want to admit that. I think any time a person uses the words fear, forced etc it's a good indication something isn't right.

I do focus on the part where to me it's very clear she implies to stop. He shoved her forcefully to bed, he over powers her attempt to hold him off and begins to have sex w her while her arms are restrained by his body weight. As this was being told to me the girl was sobbing and shaking. She felt nauseous too. She said "he just took it". She's 5'0 and 105lbs. I can't imagine a single person who wouldn't understand what he was doing. Go to the next meeting where the guy grabs her and won't let go until she brings to fight to get lose. These 2 events is where I form my opinion. On my phone again but will try to clear up other comments later.

 

[Arsenal of Doom]

I think allowing yourself to be carried upstairs, making out with a person, and letting him undress you are a pretty high standard and render the earlier "I don't think that's a good idea" utterly irrelevant.

We don't even have to assume it was utterly irrelevant - we know it was. We know, from her, that she said no, then was happy with getting carried upstairs and undressed, and it wasn't until she was naked that the possible "no, I don't want to do this" feeling came in.

She said no. Then she acted yes. Then she felt no. Holding him to the initial "no" when she herself changed her mind is asinine.

I don't feel 100% comfortable saying it wasn't "rape" in a non-legal sense, but again, where it gets hazy for me is the pushing/pinning, and has absolutely nothing to do with when she said no before changing her mind to yes.

We're still hung up on reading into the information provided. Being turned on by being carried into a bedroom, and consenting to that happening are two different things. As I mentioned earlier, it's not uncommon for victims of sexual assault to be physically aroused. I read the story as her conveying that's how she felt to the OP, not necessarily implying that she felt that was consensual activity let alone anything that happened after that.

We need to clarify something here.

We can look at it from her perspective or from his perspective. Since most are talking in legal terms with respect to whether or not this was "rape," I'm looking at it from his perspective because being guilty of (the crime of) rape requires that he had sex with her without her giving him consent. The definition of what "her giving him consent" would require is clearly wrapped up in the whole "what a reasonable person would believe." There is no strict definition. There is no requirement that a "previous verbal non-consent be overruled by an ensuing verbal reversal of said consent." Everything between those quotes is made up jibberish. Sure, it might be prudent, or the smart thing, to make extra sure that she's comfortable with every single development. It's probably what I would do. But we're not talking about whether this guy was prudent, or nice, or a creep. We're talking about whether he's a rapist.

She comes over. They make out. He proposes they go to the bedroom. She says that's not a good idea. He then picks her up. Sure, I was editorializing before saying she was "giggling," we don't know that. But we know what was in her mind (she enjoyed it) and she didn't say anything to the OP suggesting that she resisted or gave any kind of signal that this was not a welcome development (which makes sense, since we know she liked it). She gets carried into the bedroom, lets him undress her. She's into it.

So you're the guy. You're telling me that up to this point, you wouldn't consider that consent? Or, more appropriately, that a reasonable person would not consider that consent? You think a reasonable person would think "Oh ####, she might be paralyzed with fear!" He very likely doesn't consider himself a rapist or a sexual predator. Why would he reasonably think her behavior is out of fear?

Of course, from that moment on, things get into a grey area for me. The pushing her down/pinning her arms don't sound great. But I think it's a very hazy area as she never said anything, and it might have been reasonable for him to think that whatever the movement/pushing was was just part of the sex, particularly in the absence of her telling him to stop. I don't know, but I do know that there's not enough there that I'd vote to convict (based on the information that we have).

Internally, from her perspective, could she have decided that she didn't want to have sex? Obviously, yes. And if he ended up having sex with her, then I guess in some (non-legal) way you could say she was "raped" since she had sex without consenting to it. But you can't just decide inside your brain, after making out with a guy, letting him carry you into his bedroom and take off your clothes, that you don't want to go through with it, and never bother to inform the guy of your change of heart. If you no longer want to have sex with someone you just let take your clothes off, you probably shouldn't keep it a secret. She says after he pushed her, that she was scared, which I get, but still strikes me as odd just to never say anything.

Anyway, I'm probably done going back and forth about this. Either way it's not a great situation, and I feel bad for her if she feels violated, etc.

First off, thank you for the well thought out post and discussion. I hope I'm not coming off as being self-righteous or judgmental here, which isn't my intent at all. Regardless of the OPs intention, I think it's a good thing that we have a thread where men are candidly exchanging points of view on consent.

I'm looking at this as essentially a hypothetical and how'd advise my currently 8 year old son to act when we get to the point of taking about these things. Both out of wanting him to respect his eventual partners and not wanting him to end up in a situation where he would be at risk legally.

From my perspective, and this aligns with everything I've ever come across legally defining it, consent is an affirmation that a specific activity is okay. Every act of sexual contact requires consent, or a line is crossed where both parties are at risk. As I said earlier, obviously consent is usually not verbalized. However, the initial comment "I don't think that's a good idea right now" created a stated absence of consent. What I'd tell my son in that situation is that it's okay to continue making out, and there's even a good chance you could end up having sex, but make sure at that point there's no confusion it's what she wants.

I don't think immediately picking her up at that point was a great idea, but if it didn't go any farther in the bedroom or if she from that point on is 100% engaged in the activity I think the situation would likely be fine and none of this gets discussed years later be random guys on the internet. However, even if you believe she consented to going upstairs and having her clothes taken off, it's still not consent to having sex. Trying to get up off the bed, and trying to push him away and being restrained demonstrate another absence of consent. To me it's totally reasonable at that point she wouldn't verbalize anything out of fear, which is what she apparently conveyed to the OP.

Again thinking about what I'd tell my son, is that sex involving physical force and restraint can be great fun but it involves another big hurdle of consent. Particularly if you are having sex with someone for the first time, make sure you understand what your partner wants and feels safe. Don't rely on how you think she feels, or even how you interpret her response. Even if you just say, "is this okay?" or "do you like this?" at some point. Validate consent exists, don't assume. It can easily be done in a way that doesn't break the mood.

Anyway, like i said, I appreciate the candid discussion.

 

[comfortably numb]

Condom or no condom?

Who rapes with a condom?

This is actually a good question.

Do you no the answer to this question OP?

 

[Papa Georgio]

Condom or no condom?

Who rapes with a condom?

This is actually a good question.

Do you no the answer to this question OP?

It is my understanding that it was while he was undressing and during the time he was putting a condom on that she thought about what was about to happen and wanted to stop.

 

[Papa Georgio]

I think allowing yourself to be carried upstairs, making out with a person, and letting him undress you are a pretty high standard and render the earlier "I don't think that's a good idea" utterly irrelevant.

We don't even have to assume it was utterly irrelevant - we know it was. We know, from her, that she said no, then was happy with getting carried upstairs and undressed, and it wasn't until she was naked that the possible "no, I don't want to do this" feeling came in.

She said no. Then she acted yes. Then she felt no. Holding him to the initial "no" when she herself changed her mind is asinine.

I don't feel 100% comfortable saying it wasn't "rape" in a non-legal sense, but again, where it gets hazy for me is the pushing/pinning, and has absolutely nothing to do with when she said no before changing her mind to yes.

We're still hung up on reading into the information provided. Being turned on by being carried into a bedroom, and consenting to that happening are two different things. As I mentioned earlier, it's not uncommon for victims of sexual assault to be physically aroused. I read the story as her conveying that's how she felt to the OP, not necessarily implying that she felt that was consensual activity let alone anything that happened after that.

We need to clarify something here.

We can look at it from her perspective or from his perspective. Since most are talking in legal terms with respect to whether or not this was "rape," I'm looking at it from his perspective because being guilty of (the crime of) rape requires that he had sex with her without her giving him consent. The definition of what "her giving him consent" would require is clearly wrapped up in the whole "what a reasonable person would believe." There is no strict definition. There is no requirement that a "previous verbal non-consent be overruled by an ensuing verbal reversal of said consent." Everything between those quotes is made up jibberish. Sure, it might be prudent, or the smart thing, to make extra sure that she's comfortable with every single development. It's probably what I would do. But we're not talking about whether this guy was prudent, or nice, or a creep. We're talking about whether he's a rapist.

She comes over. They make out. He proposes they go to the bedroom. She says that's not a good idea. He then picks her up. Sure, I was editorializing before saying she was "giggling," we don't know that. But we know what was in her mind (she enjoyed it) and she didn't say anything to the OP suggesting that she resisted or gave any kind of signal that this was not a welcome development (which makes sense, since we know she liked it). She gets carried into the bedroom, lets him undress her. She's into it.

So you're the guy. You're telling me that up to this point, you wouldn't consider that consent? Or, more appropriately, that a reasonable person would not consider that consent? You think a reasonable person would think "Oh ####, she might be paralyzed with fear!" He very likely doesn't consider himself a rapist or a sexual predator. Why would he reasonably think her behavior is out of fear?

Of course, from that moment on, things get into a grey area for me. The pushing her down/pinning her arms don't sound great. But I think it's a very hazy area as she never said anything, and it might have been reasonable for him to think that whatever the movement/pushing was was just part of the sex, particularly in the absence of her telling him to stop. I don't know, but I do know that there's not enough there that I'd vote to convict (based on the information that we have).

Internally, from her perspective, could she have decided that she didn't want to have sex? Obviously, yes. And if he ended up having sex with her, then I guess in some (non-legal) way you could say she was "raped" since she had sex without consenting to it. But you can't just decide inside your brain, after making out with a guy, letting him carry you into his bedroom and take off your clothes, that you don't want to go through with it, and never bother to inform the guy of your change of heart. If you no longer want to have sex with someone you just let take your clothes off, you probably shouldn't keep it a secret. She says after he pushed her, that she was scared, which I get, but still strikes me as odd just to never say anything.

Anyway, I'm probably done going back and forth about this. Either way it's not a great situation, and I feel bad for her if she feels violated, etc.

First off, thank you for the well thought out post and discussion. I hope I'm not coming off as being self-righteous or judgmental here, which isn't my intent at all. Regardless of the OPs intention, I think it's a good thing that we have a thread where men are candidly exchanging points of view on consent.

I'm looking at this as essentially a hypothetical and how'd advise my currently 8 year old son to act when we get to the point of taking about these things. Both out of wanting him to respect his eventual partners and not wanting him to end up in a situation where he would be at risk legally.

From my perspective, and this aligns with everything I've ever come across legally defining it, consent is an affirmation that a specific activity is okay. Every act of sexual contact requires consent, or a line is crossed where both parties are at risk. As I said earlier, obviously consent is usually not verbalized. However, the initial comment "I don't think that's a good idea right now" created a stated absence of consent. What I'd tell my son in that situation is that it's okay to continue making out, and there's even a good chance you could end up having sex, but make sure at that point there's no confusion it's what she wants.

I don't think immediately picking her up at that point was a great idea, but if it didn't go any farther in the bedroom or if she from that point on is 100% engaged in the activity I think the situation would likely be fine and none of this gets discussed years later be random guys on the internet. However, even if you believe she consented to going upstairs and having her clothes taken off, it's still not consent to having sex. Trying to get up off the bed, and trying to push him away and being restrained demonstrate another absence of consent. To me it's totally reasonable at that point she wouldn't verbalize anything out of fear, which is what she apparently conveyed to the OP.

Again thinking about what I'd tell my son, is that sex involving physical force and restraint can be great fun but it involves another big hurdle of consent. Particularly if you are having sex with someone for the first time, make sure you understand what your partner wants and feels safe. Don't rely on how you think she feels, or even how you interpret her response. Even if you just say, "is this okay?" or "do you like this?" at some point. Validate consent exists, don't assume. It can easily be done in a way that doesn't break the mood.

Anyway, like i said, I appreciate the candid discussion.

This sums up very much how I personally feel in a much better way than how I've been able to express it.

 

[MC Gas Money]

Condom or no condom?

Who rapes with a condom?

This is actually a good question.

His, mine or both?

 

[FUBAR]

I'd like a lawyer to tell us if "I'm not sure that's a good idea right now" constitutes verbal non-consent. I can think of several scenarios where I wouldn't think it was without knowing context, inflection, etc but that's with no knowledge of the law.

I'd be surprised if "non-consent" was even a thing. Before you have sex with someone, you have to have consent. It doesn't specifically have to be verbal, it just has to be what a reasonable person would consider consent, blah blah blah

Right. Her response indicates she did not consent, but it's not definitive by itself.

Which response indicates that she did not consent?

Pretty much everything

The making out? Taking her clothes off? Not giving any clear indication she wasn't consenting? Everything, really?

I'd laugh if this weren't serious and sad. If you truly have this view, you need to think seriously before you find yourself accused of rape.

He took her clothes off, she told him it wasn't a good idea - reasonable people would take this as no, or at best try to convince her otherwise without using force. She appears to have given no indication of consent.

The op obviously is giving just one side of the story and wasn't there (presumably) but this is enough to get us to probable cause to title him with the offense.

 

[Bucky86]

I'm not sure where the disconnect is. A man had to physically restrain a girl he's never had relations with before, during an act that she did not initiate, after she already told him verbally going to the bedroom was not a good idea.

 

[Bucky86]

Also, regardless whether she let him carry her to the bedroom, I do not consider this consent either. What if he asked her if he can have sex and she said no. What if 15 minutes later he asked her if they can make out and she says yes. Is this now consent to have intercourse?

 

[Otis]

I'd like a lawyer to tell us if "I'm not sure that's a good idea right now" constitutes verbal non-consent. I can think of several scenarios where I wouldn't think it was without knowing context, inflection, etc but that's with no knowledge of the law.

I'd be surprised if "non-consent" was even a thing. Before you have sex with someone, you have to have consent. It doesn't specifically have to be verbal, it just has to be what a reasonable person would consider consent, blah blah blah

Right. Her response indicates she did not consent, but it's not definitive by itself.

Which response indicates that she did not consent?

Pretty much everything

Like the part where she goes to his house, gets naked, gets admittedly turned on when he picks her up and puts her in his bed?

 

[johnnycakes]

Also, regardless whether she let him carry her to the bedroom, I do not consider this consent either. What if he asked her if he can have sex and she said no. What if 15 minutes later he asked her if they can make out and she says yes. Is this now consent to have intercourse?

Do you use this to make sure you can document consent?

 

[Otis]

How did that lunatic rapist ever get the impression she thought sex would be a good idea??

 

[mcflyguy22]

Def date rape. The guy prob could've gotten some on the second date,

 

[Bucky86]

Also, regardless whether she let him carry her to the bedroom, I do not consider this consent either. What if he asked her if he can have sex and she said no. What if 15 minutes later he asked her if they can make out and she says yes. Is this now consent to have intercourse?

Do you use this to make sure you can document consent?

Yup that's exactly what I do

 

[FUBAR]

I'd like a lawyer to tell us if "I'm not sure that's a good idea right now" constitutes verbal non-consent. I can think of several scenarios where I wouldn't think it was without knowing context, inflection, etc but that's with no knowledge of the law.

I'd be surprised if "non-consent" was even a thing. Before you have sex with someone, you have to have consent. It doesn't specifically have to be verbal, it just has to be what a reasonable person would consider consent, blah blah blah

Right. Her response indicates she did not consent, but it's not definitive by itself.

Which response indicates that she did not consent?

Pretty much everything

Like the part where she goes to his house, gets naked, gets admittedly turned on when he picks her up and puts her in his bed?

So going to someone's house means you want to be carried to bed, undressed and held down while being ####ed?

OP wrote that he undressed her.

 

[FUBAR]

I'm not sure where the disconnect is. A man had to physically restrain a girl he's never had relations with before, during an act that she did not initiate, after she already told him verbally going to the bedroom was not a good idea.

Seems some people need a "do not enter" sign

 

[comfortably numb]

Def date rape. The guy prob could've gotten some on the second date,

This is funnier then it should be

 

[Arsenal of Doom]

Something else I wanted to comment on from earlier in the conversation, there's nothing wrong with rape fantasy or rough sex. That doesn't mean, even if you specifically know a girl likes those things, that it is okay to do them without clear consent. In fact, it's often the case that women with those fantasies require the most feeling of safety and trust in their partners.

In this case I don't see how that would even enter into a (bad) justification since these are people who hadn't had sex before and it seems unlikely they would have shared that level of information ahead of time.

 

[johnnycakes]

I'm not sure where the disconnect is. A man had to physically restrain a girl he's never had relations with before, during an act that she did not initiate, after she already told him verbally going to the bedroom was not a good idea.

Seems some people need a "do not enter" sign

this. Or complete the form here, print out, and have her sign it before going hot and heavy.

 

[IvanKaramazov]

We need to clarify something here.

We can look at it from her perspective or from his perspective. Since most are talking in legal terms with respect to whether or not this was "rape," I'm looking at it from his perspective because being guilty of (the crime of) rape requires that he had sex with her without her giving him consent. The definition of what "her giving him consent" would require is clearly wrapped up in the whole "what a reasonable person would believe." There is no strict definition. There is no requirement that a "previous verbal non-consent be overruled by an ensuing verbal reversal of said consent." Everything between those quotes is made up jibberish. Sure, it might be prudent, or the smart thing, to make extra sure that she's comfortable with every single development. It's probably what I would do. But we're not talking about whether this guy was prudent, or nice, or a creep. We're talking about whether he's a rapist.

She comes over. They make out. He proposes they go to the bedroom. She says that's not a good idea. He then picks her up. Sure, I was editorializing before saying she was "giggling," we don't know that. But we know what was in her mind (she enjoyed it) and she didn't say anything to the OP suggesting that she resisted or gave any kind of signal that this was not a welcome development (which makes sense, since we know she liked it). She gets carried into the bedroom, lets him undress her. She's into it.

So you're the guy. You're telling me that up to this point, you wouldn't consider that consent? Or, more appropriately, that a reasonable person would not consider that consent? You think a reasonable person would think "Oh ####, she might be paralyzed with fear!" He very likely doesn't consider himself a rapist or a sexual predator. Why would he reasonably think her behavior is out of fear?

Of course, from that moment on, things get into a grey area for me. The pushing her down/pinning her arms don't sound great.

I'm with you 100% up to this point. But the pinning-her-arms down part is something that I don't see as a grey area or subject to any serious misinterpretation. It seems much more likely to me that this was date rape than any kind of honest misunderstanding.

 

[Bucky86]

I'm not sure where the disconnect is. A man had to physically restrain a girl he's never had relations with before, during an act that she did not initiate, after she already told him verbally going to the bedroom was not a good idea.

Seems some people need a "do not enter" sign

this. Or complete the form here, print out, and have her sign it before going hot and heavy.

This wasn't funny the first time. And it wasn't funny the second time.

 

[NCCommish]

I'd like a lawyer to tell us if "I'm not sure that's a good idea right now" constitutes verbal non-consent. I can think of several scenarios where I wouldn't think it was without knowing context, inflection, etc but that's with no knowledge of the law.

I'd be surprised if "non-consent" was even a thing. Before you have sex with someone, you have to have consent. It doesn't specifically have to be verbal, it just has to be what a reasonable person would consider consent, blah blah blah

Right. Her response indicates she did not consent, but it's not definitive by itself.

Which response indicates that she did not consent?

Pretty much everything

The making out? Taking her clothes off? Not giving any clear indication she wasn't consenting? Everything, really?

I'd laugh if this weren't serious and sad. If you truly have this view, you need to think seriously before you find yourself accused of rape.

He took her clothes off, she told him it wasn't a good idea - reasonable people would take this as no, or at best try to convince her otherwise without using force. She appears to have given no indication of consent.

The op obviously is giving just one side of the story and wasn't there (presumably) but this is enough to get us to probable cause to title him with the offense.

No she said it wasn't a good idea and then she let him carry her to bed, get her naked while "she got into it" and then never again said a word to the negative. By her own account. And since we heard nothing about injury from the sex I assume there was some foreplay as well. Which again seems to have been part of her getting into it. Until she wasn't. Which she never communicated by her own account. I'm sorry this is just too gray to call rape. Maybe there are more details we could get and that would change something but given this? I couldn't convict with this. I think the guy is a doosh from this. I might want to kick his ### if she was my sister or friend. But convict? Can't do it.

 

[johnnycakes]

I'm not sure where the disconnect is. A man had to physically restrain a girl he's never had relations with before, during an act that she did not initiate, after she already told him verbally going to the bedroom was not a good idea.

Seems some people need a "do not enter" sign

this. Or complete the form here, print out, and have her sign it before going hot and heavy.

This wasn't funny the first time. And it wasn't funny the second time.

Sucks to be you.

 

[Bucky86]

I'm not sure where the disconnect is. A man had to physically restrain a girl he's never had relations with before, during an act that she did not initiate, after she already told him verbally going to the bedroom was not a good idea.

Seems some people need a "do not enter" sign

this. Or complete the form here, print out, and have her sign it before going hot and heavy.

This wasn't funny the first time. And it wasn't funny the second time.

Sucks to be you.

The Asians must be an easier audience.