Where is the Male Image/Role Heading? (1 Viewer)

[djmich]

The thing that I've always wondered is why are the people that think men need to be alphas and who talk about the wussification of men always the whiniest little snowflakes that constantly complain about everything not being fair to them as straight white men?

Strong post

 

[massraider]

 Is this now bad?

Not as far as I'm concerned. 

Raise your kids however you see fit. Why does anyone else need to be involved? Why do we, collectively, need to think about general male roles? 

 

[KarmaPolice]

KP im more fundamentally questioning why masculinity=toxic=mass murders and guns

Is that your view of what should be considered masculinity?  It’s seems like a pretty corrupted view and I can see why young boys don’t want to be masculine if that’s how society is now defining them.

It doesn't, and I thought I was clear about that.   

Personally, if I use "toxic" masculinity to me that means the negative consequences of the traits that you are saying are a good thing.  I agree that they are good things to have if they are not taken to an extreme and can be used in certain situations.    Being aggressive and assertive are good things in many situations.   Taken to the extreme, those traits can also lead to something like domestic abuse, hence the "toxic" part.    Hopefully that clarifies.    That is my use and understanding of it, but fully acknowlege that you probably could find others that use it for just about any masculine traits.  

I would guess that where I disagree with the people on your side of the debate is that I don't look at a traits like you listed you want your son to have and just apply that to one sex.   I don't understand why those would be bad traits for my daughter to possess either.   What I feel like many who want more "traditional roles" to be a thing are saying is that aggression in males is good, aggression in females is bad,  and what is going on is too much blurring of those traditional traits and roles.  

 

[djmich]

I would guess that where I disagree with the people on your side of the debate is that I don't look at a traits like you listed you want your son to have and just apply that to one sex.   I don't understand why those would be bad traits for my daughter to possess either.   What I feel like many who want more "traditional roles" to be a thing are saying is that aggression in males is good, aggression in females is bad,  and what is going on is too much blurring of those traditional traits and roles.  

Ha.  So I don’t have sons, only daughters.  And I specifically used terms that I would like to see from my daughters.  Kinda part of what I was testing.

But where did I say or even imply that these would be bad traits for daughters?  My side of the debate?  Did you assume that I thought that because I thought they were good traits for men?

Thats part of what I’m getting at overall.  There’s this vibe today that masculinity is toxic, except when it’s women, but then it’s good masculinity.  And I don’t think that’s a good thing for young boys.  Btw, im not putting this vibe all on you 

@massraider I care because I don’t live in a remote mountain hideaway.  I’m part of society, and my kids will be, and I’d like to see it and the participants be healthy because you can’t avoid it.

 

[KarmaPolice]

Ha.  So I don’t have sons, only daughters.  And I specifically used terms that I would like to see from my daughters.  Kinda part of what I was testing.

But where did I say or even imply that these would be bad traits for daughters?  Did you assume that I thought that because I thought they were good traits for men?

Thats part of what I’m getting at overall.  There’s this vibe today that masculinity is toxic, except when it’s women, but then it’s good masculinity.  And I don’t think that’s a good thing for young boys.  Btw, im not putting this vibe all on you 

@massraider I care because I don’t live in a remote mountain hideaway.  I’m part of society, and my kids will be, and I’d like to see it and the participants be healthy because you can’t avoid it.

And it seems like both of us think similar here, so WTF are we playing word games and playing "gotcha"?    

I am saying I don't view it that way, and I was simply pushing back on your questioning of why all masculinity is toxic because somebody used that word.  I don't think that, you don't think that.  

 

[sho nuff]

  

2 things I can't do:  deal with vomit or hair.    I have tried with my daughter and her hair and just butcher it.  It's to the point now she teases me "I know Daddy, you are bald - what do you know about hair??"  and just gets her mom.  

Hell Im bald too.  Part of it was I was the one who took her to dance and her first recital dress rehearsal…so I had to figure it out.

How it has continued to now…no idea.   Similar to how I made the mistake early in marriage to mention that I liked my shirts folded a certain way.  The reply was the now predictable…well, how about you do it from now on.  And she has rarely folded or hung up any laundry of mine ever again.  I also was smart enough to later fold washcloths sloppily to where she now insists to just do it herself.

 

[sho nuff]

I think it becomes toxic when we assume our thought of a man is how a man should be and look down on others for it.

It happened for a bit when I first quit work.  Somehow I was less of a man because I stayed home and took care of my kids.  As if being a good father was not manly enough.

 

[djmich]

And it seems like both of us think similar here, so WTF are we playing word games and playing "gotcha"?    

I am saying I don't view it that way, and I was simply pushing back on your questioning of why all masculinity is toxic because somebody used that word.  I don't think that, you don't think that.  

Well it’s kinda hard because you replied to my post about using toxic which was in response to fatguy, who used the word toxic lol.

They gotcha is to illustrate my original point and question to fatguy, which is that society today seems be making masculinity and toxic masculinity synonymous.  And that it seems now that often masculine traits are used in an encouraging way for girls, but with boys the immediate reaction is that it’s toxic and can lead to mass murders.

Sorry that touched a nerve.

 

[The Commish]

Sure other men, our sons…I assume we want them to be be happy and prosper?

Id like to see my son be aggressive, assertive, to not be afraid, to fight to protect his family, to want to win…at school, at work.  Is this now bad?

I think the answers to these questions rely on what it means to "win" and how they are taught to "win"  

 

[djmich]

I think the answers to these questions rely on what it means to "win" and how they are taught to "win"  

Win at sports.  Win in school.  Win at work.

Win by working hard, studying, pushing yourself.  Be assertive.  Be strong.

This seems sort of basic to me?

 

[djmich]

I think it becomes toxic when we assume our thought of a man is how a man should be and look down on others for it.

It happened for a bit when I first quit work.  Somehow I was less of a man because I stayed home and took care of my kids.  As if being a good father was not manly enough.

I agree that is bad thinking.

I think we really shouldn’t call masculinity toxic in any context to be honest.  There are good people and bad people, bad behaviors and good behaviors.  Men have a history of doing some bad things, I don’t think it’s good to stereotype a gender as toxic and that’s what I see happening.  
 

Just the same I wouldn’t go around saying we need to be concerned about toxic blackness.  Even if I believe there are things the black community can do better at.

 

[GoBirds]

Win at sports.  Win in school.  Win at work.

Win by working hard, studying, pushing yourself.  Be assertive.  Be strong.

This seems sort of basic to me?

I’m with you friend. I don’t think there’s anything wrong with this and it’s how I would encourage my boys to push themselves. At the same time I’m supportive of any of our friends that find their balance in the roles not as traditionally masculine if that’s the fit that works for them. Those that attempt to shame us for our views would be the ones I have issue with.  

 

[KarmaPolice]

Well it’s kinda hard because you replied to my post about using toxic which was in response to fatguy, who used the word toxic lol.

They gotcha is to illustrate my original point and question to fatguy, which is that society today seems be making masculinity and toxic masculinity synonymous.  And that it seems now that often masculine traits are used in an encouraging way for girls, but with boys the immediate reaction is that it’s toxic and can lead to mass murders.

Sorry that touched a nerve.

The nerve touched is for some reason, despite what I usually consider decent back and forth with you, there has been a string of either stuff like this or your positioning my posts as though I am going to the extreme like your post saying I was tying in something to white supremecy and bigotry.   It's not just this exchange, more a build up of annoyance on my part.  

 

[djmich]

The nerve touched is for some reason, despite what I usually consider decent back and forth with you, there has been a string of either stuff like this or your positioning my posts as though I am going to the extreme like your post saying I was tying in something to white supremecy and bigotry.   It's not just this exchange, more a build up of annoyance on my part.  

Gotcha.  Maybe I am being passive aggressive (is that a masculine or feminine trait?)

So to be fair, here, I responded to fatguy.  You came in and responded to me.  And in that response you thought it was very important that the first thing you countered my post with was a “what about mass murderers and stuff” paragraph.  Basically what about toxic masculinity.

I think I often poke at the positioning of your posts because you very often try to walk a “I’m just a moderate” line but your first response is usually in defense of the liberal part of an issue. As it was in this case.  So I can respond to that or not.  I’ll lay off.

 

[KarmaPolice]

I think it becomes toxic when we assume our thought of a man is how a man should be and look down on others for it.

It happened for a bit when I first quit work.  Somehow I was less of a man because I stayed home and took care of my kids.  As if being a good father was not manly enough.

I was thinking about this today and a couple things came to mind from my experiences. 

One was similar to you - some of the attitudes you get as a stay at home dad.   More specifically, and I feel this ties in a bit in the attitudes that we saw in the DQ thread, some of the looks and comments I got when I was around little kids.   At the park, reading to the 4K class, etc..    There seems to very much be an undercurrent of "why does that guy want to be around little kids so much?"    Truth is, I really liked it, was good at it, and for whatever reason kids seem to gravitate to me.   It comes naturally.   But I stopped doing it because of some of those sentiments.  Not worth it being branded some creep because you think it's important to read to and play with kids.     It's an odd dichotomy that really frustrated me - we want more positive male role models, but I guess that only applies when they are a certain age or above.   I know around here I rarely see male teachers much before the age of 3rd-4th grade besides the occasional gym teacher.  

The other was my wife and I were talking about the attitudes and traits of the coaches that my son has come in contact with.  Stereotypical yellers, very little positive feedback, purposely trying to get him mad so he plays "more aggressively" or "bigger".    Almost across the board, all the same, and he basically hated them all and largely stopped playing other sports besides basketball because of it - it might motivate some, but he wasn't the only one that didn't work for.   He just loves basketball enough to deal with it, but it might be pushed to the test this year as the ####ty coach he had for a Freshman is rumored to be the JV coach now because of a couple other coaches in the pipeline retiring.  

 

[KarmaPolice]

Gotcha.  Maybe I am being passive aggressive (is that a masculine or feminine trait?)

So to be fair, here, I responded to fatguy.  You came in and responded to me.  And in that response you thought it was very important that the first thing you countered my post with was a “what about mass murderers and stuff” paragraph.  Basically what about toxic masculinity.

I think I often poke at the positioning of your posts because you very often try to walk a “I’m just a moderate” line but your first response is usually in defense of the liberal part of an issue. As it was in this case.  So I can respond to that or not.  I’ll lay off.

Yeah, i've tired of this bull#### too, and have explained my position.  Take it or leave it, it's cool we all don't have to interact with each other.  

The reason for that is that on social issues I am mostly liberal.   But I agreed way more with the other side in the Drag Queen thread for example.  Most of the things we all talk about are social issues, but I vote for both equally in local stuff, and besides dumb ### Biden, vote 3rd party for POTUS.  

 

[The Commish]

Win at sports.  Win in school.  Win at work.

Win by working hard, studying, pushing yourself.  Be assertive.  Be strong.

This seems sort of basic to me?

For me, there's a big difference between "winning" and "being successful".  "Winning at school/work" doesn't compute because in my mind, "winning" means there are losers.  So for school, I don't see how "winning" applies at all and at work 99.99999% of jobs require us to work as a team...not good to have "losers" in those situations either.  None of this seems to apply to "winning" if I am being honest (except for pushing yourself) and that's why I asked my initial question.  Practicing, honing your craft, pushing yourself etc are all things I associate with winning.  You seem to be talking about traits of a successful person, which again, in my view is different from "winning".  Thanks for the clarification   

 

[IvanKaramazov]

Good for who? Other men? Men in general?

Why would anyone care if OTHER men are the alpha in their relationships, or if some other guy is timid?

It isn't about being an "alpha" in your personal relationship.  My experience on this forum is that people who use terms like "alpha" and "beta" unironically are nearly all man-children.  I don't care what those people think about how I form relationships.

It's more about men just being comfortable being men.  It's hard not to notice that this is becoming a rarer trait these days.  Again, you see it in this forum.  You don't have to go scouring the internet for it.

 

[djmich]

For me, there's a big difference between "winning" and "being successful".  "Winning at school/work" doesn't compute because in my mind, "winning" means there are losers.  So for school, I don't see how "winning" applies at all and at work 99.99999% of jobs require us to work as a team...not good to have "losers" in those situations either.  None of this seems to apply to "winning" if I am being honest (except for pushing yourself) and that's why I asked my initial question.  Practicing, honing your craft, pushing yourself etc are all things I associate with winning.  You seem to be talking about traits of a successful person, which again, in my view is different from "winning".  Thanks for the clarification   

That’s interesting, I think we are saying the same thing.  Would observe that sticking with the theme of the thread “winning” is probably the masculine form of “being successful”.

Imo you can hone all those things, push yourself…work to be successful.  But I’d say everyone will need to win at some point.  Get into a great school (you are competing with other candidates).  Get that job as team lead (you were a team member but competing against teammates for a lead role).  Of course sports.

I think any way you phrase it the behaviors can be good, me personally I focus with my children on being the best they can be, but am clear that others are trying just as hard and the world is competitive.

 

[KarmaPolice]

It isn't about being an "alpha" in your personal relationship.  My experience on this forum is that people who use terms like "alpha" and "beta" unironically are nearly all man-children.  I don't care what those people think about how I form relationships.

It's more about men just being comfortable being men.  It's hard not to notice that this is becoming a rarer trait these days.  Again, you see it in this forum.  You don't have to go scouring the internet for it.

There's uncomfortableness on both sides, and I would guess regionally there is a difference which one is more uncomfortable.   I live in rural WI, and am mostly interacting with farmers, hunters, blue collar guys, military guys, etc..   AKA nothing like me.    I would guess the opposite is true if a group of those guys moved to California.   

So men like Sho and I have expressed the feeling of being "told" that we aren't manly enough, and I would guess many others feel like they are being told they are too manly and 'toxic'.  As a whole we spend way too much energy labeling and categorizing and too little on just embracing who each other are.  It's unhealthy all around.  

 

[The Commish]

That’s interesting, I think we are saying the same thing.  Would observe that sticking with the theme of the thread “winning” is probably the masculine form of “being successful”.

Imo you can hone all those things, push yourself…work to be successful.  But I’d say everyone will need to win at some point.  Get into a great school (you are competing with other candidates).  Get that job as team lead (you were a team member but competing against teammates for a lead role).  Of course sports.

I think any way you phrase it the behaviors can be good, me personally I focus with my children on being the best they can be, but am clear that others are trying just as hard and the world is competitive.

They are very similar IMO, but aren't the same thing.  For example, I'd never teach my kids success the same way I coach their team sports because those are two very different situations that have very different rules.  Yes, it's true that some of the concepts cross paths, but in the end, they are very different situations.  I guess there might be some extra concepts that cross paths if talking about individual sports, but most of us don't end up in those situations.

I'll use your example of competing with teammates for the team leader role.  In sports, one leaves it all on the field and they are competing as a unit against a team that is completely outside their team.  It is very much "us vs them".  There are things one can do in that instance that are likely not wise to do when you are walking the fine line between competition and being a good teammate as you're trying to get that team lead role.  You have to learn how to walk that line to get where you want to go without hurting the team dynamic.  It's a nuance that's lost in simply labeling things "winning" or "losing".  But it's very important to understand if one wants to be successful.  

I think where "toxicity" comes in, at least for me, is in the approach and "how" a person goes about achieving their goals.  There are good and bad ways to go about achieving your goals.  For example, if your approach to winning/success involves degrading your competition, you're likely toxic.  We teach all the kids on our baseball teams that not only do they need to be gracious losers, they also need to be gracious winners.  There are "sore winners" just like there are "sore losers" and we don't want that.  In my view, this is where toxicity comes in.  I don't think a lot of people consider that, but I see it all the time in the people who say things like "Man, that dude just lost the superbowl and he's out there shaking hands and laughing it up with the other team.  He must not care about his team or winning at all".  That's not it at all.  Of course he's gutted personally, but he's not going to be defined by a single moment and he's not going to allow someone else's success in that moment somehow define him as a loser.  He's going to use it to work harder to be ready when the next opportunity presents itself.

 

[sho nuff]

There's uncomfortableness on both sides, and I would guess regionally there is a difference which one is more uncomfortable.   I live in rural WI, and am mostly interacting with farmers, hunters, blue collar guys, military guys, etc..   AKA nothing like me.    I would guess the opposite is true if a group of those guys moved to California.   

So men like Sho and I have expressed the feeling of being "told" that we aren't manly enough, and I would guess many others feel like they are being told they are too manly and 'toxic'.  As a whole we spend way too much energy labeling and categorizing and too little on just embracing who each other are.  It's unhealthy all around.  

And it was over one thing...I took care of my kids and home during the day.  Somehow...that was not acting like a man enough.  Never mind Im still fixing crap around the house, doing the yard work, working out...going fishing with friends.  Coaching my kids sports teams, grilling, drinking beer.  you know, traditionally "manly" stuff.

 

[bigbottom]

I think it becomes toxic when we assume our thought of a man is how a man should be and look down on others for it.

It happened for a bit when I first quit work.  Somehow I was less of a man because I stayed home and took care of my kids.  As if being a good father was not manly enough.

I agree with your sentiment here. But I think it’s also important how we talk about stay at home parents. Re your point about staying home and being a “good father,” a man isn’t necessarily “less good” of a father because he works and has a career. And a woman isn’t “less good” of a mother because she works and has a career. While you may not hear anyone mention the former, there is very much an unfair stigma in certain circles regarding the latter. I know that wasn’t what you were meaning, but it’s not always how it lands with others (particularly with working women).

 

[KarmaPolice]

And it was over one thing...I took care of my kids and home during the day.  Somehow...that was not acting like a man enough.  Never mind Im still fixing crap around the house, doing the yard work, working out...going fishing with friends.  Coaching my kids sports teams, grilling, drinking beer.  you know, traditionally "manly" stuff.

Yep, you for sure still have more "manly" punches on your Man Card than I do.    

 

[The Commish]

I will say that COVID has helped my case for what is "manly"

I work from home.  I have for 20+ years.  I get the kids up in the morning, get them ready for school, take them to school, pick them up from school etc.  People have been so very confused at that situation for a long time.  I'm a general sports guy, but don't do a lot of the "manly" things like hunting etc.  Since moving to Florida, I've upped my fishing game, but my God can that be boring!!!  I take care of everything external to the house and am generally handy so play "fix it guy" on things inside.  I have a wife who's more concerned with HOW things get done rather than that they got done, so I leave MOST of the stuff inside the house (laundry and the like) to her.  It's just not worth the hassle.  She loves to be "in charge" but can't make a decision to save her life.  I generally take lead on the life skills side of things when it comes to our kids.  

However, for whatever reason, people look at the fact that I work from home and they see "something" off with it.  From my view these rubes have been missing out for years, but I've never been able to convince them....until COVID   .  Now many of them "get it".  Still have some that question me and my approach, but more and more understand.  

 

[KarmaPolice]

They are very similar IMO, but aren't the same thing.  For example, I'd never teach my kids success the same way I coach their team sports because those are two very different situations that have very different rules.  Yes, it's true that some of the concepts cross paths, but in the end, they are very different situations.  I guess there might be some extra concepts that cross paths if talking about individual sports, but most of us don't end up in those situations.

I'll use your example of competing with teammates for the team leader role.  In sports, one leaves it all on the field and they are competing as a unit against a team that is completely outside their team.  It is very much "us vs them".  There are things one can do in that instance that are likely not wise to do when you are walking the fine line between competition and being a good teammate as you're trying to get that team lead role.  You have to learn how to walk that line to get where you want to go without hurting the team dynamic.  It's a nuance that's lost in simply labeling things "winning" or "losing".  But it's very important to understand if one wants to be successful.  

I think where "toxicity" comes in, at least for me, is in the approach and "how" a person goes about achieving their goals.  There are good and bad ways to go about achieving your goals.  For example, if your approach to winning/success involves degrading your competition, you're likely toxic.  We teach all the kids on our baseball teams that not only do they need to be gracious losers, they also need to be gracious winners.  There are "sore winners" just like there are "sore losers" and we don't want that.  In my view, this is where toxicity comes in.  I don't think a lot of people consider that, but I see it all the time in the people who say things like "Man, that dude just lost the superbowl and he's out there shaking hands and laughing it up with the other team.  He must not care about his team or winning at all".  That's not it at all.  Of course he's gutted personally, but he's not going to be defined by a single moment and he's not going to allow someone else's success in that moment somehow define him as a loser.  He's going to use it to work harder to be ready when the next opportunity presents itself.

Great post, and it saying better what I was trying to get across.  IMO any trait or role can be taken to the extreme and become toxic, but the traits aren't inherently or always toxic.  I think stereotypical women traits can be toxic too - somebody can be overly emotional, overly caring, whatever - to the point where it becomes toxic and negative.  

 

[Nugget]

Win at sports.  Win in school.  Win at work.

Win by working hard, studying, pushing yourself.  Be assertive.  Be strong.

This seems sort of basic to me?

I don’t see success as a zero sum game, which winning implies.  I also don’t see success as a masculine or feminine trait. 
 

Do you rail against participation trophies and then complain about workforce participation rates?

 

[djmich]

Do you rail against participation trophies and then complain about workforce participation rates?

. You should get your toxic masculinity under control, friend.

 

[Manster]

The thing that I've always wondered is why are the people that think men need to be alphas and who talk about the wussification of men always the whiniest little snowflakes that constantly complain about everything not being fair to them as straight white men?

I bet they all have small penises, and drive huge trucks with balls hangin off the hitch too!

Just like every tree huggin lib has a suby with stickers all over it.

Seriously though, I think a large portion of our population isn't down with how our society sees young males of our species......it's not just alpha meatheads.

 

[cockroach]

Seriously though, I think a large portion of our population isn't down with how our society sees young males of our species......it's not just alpha meatheads.

For what generations do you think that wasn't the case?  

 

[ekbeats]

Not even reading past the OP - which was great by the way - thank you.  I’ve found that any topic relating to white males in here just doesn’t end well.  Not sure why, but it’s almost like some Liberals have a knee-jerk, resentful reaction to it.  You’ll get responses like this:

Yeah, I am sure you are.

And it must terrible suffering all the oppression and discrimination that most white, male and straight folks go through. 

One thing I’ve learned in here over the years - some Liberals just hate white males, and it comes through in threads like this.  No interest in seeing that crap anymore.

 

[sho nuff]

Not even reading past the OP - which was great by the way - thank you.  I’ve found that any topic relating to white males in here just doesn’t end well.  Not sure why, but it’s almost like some Liberals have a knee-jerk, resentful reaction to it.  You’ll get responses like this:

One thing I’ve learned in here over the years - some Liberals just hate white males, and it comes through in threads like this.  No interest in seeing that crap anymore.

Ive seen no hate of white males in this thread or really on this board.

Not thinking that straight white  males have had it too bad isn’t the same thing as hating.

 

[The Commish]

Not even reading past the OP - which was great by the way - thank you.  I’ve found that any topic relating to white males in here just doesn’t end well.  Not sure why, but it’s almost like some Liberals have a knee-jerk, resentful reaction to it.  You’ll get responses like this:

Yeah, I am sure you are.

And it must terrible suffering all the oppression and discrimination that most white, male and straight folks go through. 

One thing I’ve learned in here over the years - some Liberals just hate white males, and it comes through in threads like this.  No interest in seeing that crap anymore.

I'd like to take both sides of this coin (the nonsense that you quoted here plus the nonsense that being white is some sort of obstacle holding white guys back because the.....) and ship all of them off to an island of their own and let them whine about each other until their eardrums bleed.

 

[ekbeats]

Not even reading past the OP - which was great by the way - thank you.  I’ve found that any topic relating to white males in here just doesn’t end well.  Not sure why, but it’s almost like some Liberals have a knee-jerk, resentful reaction to it.  You’ll get responses like this:

One thing I’ve learned in here over the years - some Liberals just hate white males, and it comes through in threads like this.  No interest in seeing that crap anymore.

I'd like to take both sides of this coin (the nonsense that you quoted here plus the nonsense that being white is some sort of obstacle holding white guys back because the.....) and ship all of them off to an island of their own and let them whine about each other until their eardrums bleed.

 

[massraider]

Anecdotal evidence, just my experience. I was thinking about this, because personally, in my relationships as a single guy, I'm seeing a different trend. 

I get the vibe from women, the ones I've dated, as well as platonic friends, that strong personality/traditional masculine traits, are more desired than I can remember. 

One specific story: I had a romantic friend from London meet me in New Orleans for a short trip. I took control, booked flights and hotel, and made a bunch of dinner reservations, etc. When we were there I made it clear if this restaurant or that place wasn't her favorite, we could always change plans. It occurred to me she had little say in what we did. She was happy with everything, the interesting part was that she was bragging to her friend on the phone that she didn't have to do anything, I handled everything. 

I was surprised it was that big a deal, and asked her about it. She made it clear that she and her friends have discussed at great length how tired they were of wishy washy men, can't make a decision, can't take control, etc. New York City, the same thing, women complain about video-game playing layabouts. I'm not seeing a desire among the liberal east coast women I deal with to date a bunch of weak-chinned vegans.

There might be less men's men these days, but that just makes them more valuable. 

 

[The Commish]

Not even reading past the OP - which was great by the way - thank you.  I’ve found that any topic relating to white males in here just doesn’t end well.  Not sure why, but it’s almost like some Liberals have a knee-jerk, resentful reaction to it.  You’ll get responses like this:

One thing I’ve learned in here over the years - some Liberals just hate white males, and it comes through in threads like this.  No interest in seeing that crap anymore.

I'd like to take both sides of this coin (the nonsense that you quoted here plus the nonsense that being white is some sort of obstacle holding white guys back because the.....) and ship all of them off to an island of their own and let them whine about each other until their eardrums bleed.

Edited 9 hours ago by ekbeats

Definitely not "knee jerk"....it happens ALL the time here and that's being pointed out by non-Liberals as well.  It's a trait in some.  I don't get it, just like I don't get the guys like squis on the other side of that coin.  I wish they'd all go away.  

 

[Manster]

Definitely not "knee jerk"....it happens ALL the time here and that's being pointed out by non-Liberals as well.  It's a trait in some.  I don't get it, just like I don't get the guys like squis on the other side of that coin.  I wish they'd all go away.  

For me it's just the identity politics in general.  We are being qualified more than ever.  I'm tired of hearing about white privilege, and white supremacy.  Kids are bringing it to school.  My daughter gets called "basic white girl".  She is told you can't be racist against white people......on the flip side, racism is thrown around toward some kids when it doesn't exist.....the list goes on.  Kids learn this stuff from their parents.  These kids are figuring out who they are right now.  What the hell are we teaching this generation?

 

[The Commish]

For me it's just the identity politics in general.  We are being qualified more than ever.  I'm tired of hearing about white privilege, and white supremacy.  Kids are bringing it to school.  My daughter gets called "basic white girl".  She is told you can't be racist against white people......on the flip side, racism is thrown around toward some kids when it doesn't exist.....the list goes on.  Kids learn this stuff from their parents.  These kids are figuring out who they are right now.  What the hell are we teaching this generation?

We teach what we were taught unless we decide to consciously break the cycle.  Fortunately, for me, I don't have to do that.  My experience in my immediate family is pretty close to yours.  I am in the minority around here in that respect.  What I teach my kids is not generally popular around here and definitely not what a lot of kids hear from their parents.  

 

[Manster]

Anecdotal evidence, just my experience. I was thinking about this, because personally, in my relationships as a single guy, I'm seeing a different trend. 

I get the vibe from women, the ones I've dated, as well as platonic friends, that strong personality/traditional masculine traits, are more desired than I can remember. 

One specific story: I had a romantic friend from London meet me in New Orleans for a short trip. I took control, booked flights and hotel, and made a bunch of dinner reservations, etc. When we were there I made it clear if this restaurant or that place wasn't her favorite, we could always change plans. It occurred to me she had little say in what we did. She was happy with everything, the interesting part was that she was bragging to her friend on the phone that she didn't have to do anything, I handled everything. 

I was surprised it was that big a deal, and asked her about it. She made it clear that she and her friends have discussed at great length how tired they were of wishy washy men, can't make a decision, can't take control, etc. New York City, the same thing, women complain about video-game playing layabouts. I'm not seeing a desire among the liberal east coast women I deal with to date a bunch of weak-chinned vegans.

There might be less men's men these days, but that just makes them more valuable. 

Sifting thru all the gender confusion, at the end of the day, most women want a man who is a confident leader.  The male of our species is physically stronger.  We are sposed to be the protector.....follow the science.

 

[Manster]

We teach what we were taught unless we decide to consciously break the cycle.  Fortunately, for me, I don't have to do that.  My experience in my immediate family is pretty close to yours.  I am in the minority around here in that respect.  What I teach my kids is not generally popular around here and definitely not what a lot of kids hear from their parents.  

I'm not sure how much you and I would see things eye to eye.  Maybe more than I would expect......  Either way, I appreciate this response.  I believe the biggest issue we face as a society is lack of parents setting the standard for their children to follow.  Or they set the standard very low and allow their kids to just go out into the wilderness not well equipped.

 

[Jayrod]

Anecdotal evidence, just my experience. I was thinking about this, because personally, in my relationships as a single guy, I'm seeing a different trend. 

I get the vibe from women, the ones I've dated, as well as platonic friends, that strong personality/traditional masculine traits, are more desired than I can remember. 

One specific story: I had a romantic friend from London meet me in New Orleans for a short trip. I took control, booked flights and hotel, and made a bunch of dinner reservations, etc. When we were there I made it clear if this restaurant or that place wasn't her favorite, we could always change plans. It occurred to me she had little say in what we did. She was happy with everything, the interesting part was that she was bragging to her friend on the phone that she didn't have to do anything, I handled everything. 

I was surprised it was that big a deal, and asked her about it. She made it clear that she and her friends have discussed at great length how tired they were of wishy washy men, can't make a decision, can't take control, etc. New York City, the same thing, women complain about video-game playing layabouts. I'm not seeing a desire among the liberal east coast women I deal with to date a bunch of weak-chinned vegans.

There might be less men's men these days, but that just makes them more valuable. 

Similar to pro-life supporters, traditional family roles aren't just something men want.  A LOT of women (maybe a lower %, but still a very significant number) believe just as much in these things as their straight, conservative male counterparts.

Not to get too deep in the weeds, but the traditional family structure is so entrenched in societies around the world because for the most part it works and that is because we are programmed to work like this (true whether you believe was creation, evolution or a combo).  On a generalized basis, men are stronger, more durable and better at hunting, gathering, fighting and working in the fields.  As a result, where all other things are equal, the men became the primary factor in survival of the family, clan or tribe.  In many parts of the world, a female could not survive without a male but the male could survive on his own.  This was honed over tens of millennia of human development.  Only in the very near future has the physical advantages of the man become more or less obsolete, but there is certainly a lot of strong DNA clinging in both men and women to this role.

On a related note, I believe the lack of the need to physically fight, scratch and claw for existence is a driving factor in the struggles of men.  Life is too easy, so we simulate the hunter/gatherer events with sports and video games, but that still leaves us empty.  Especially when the needs/urges of that lifestyle are shunned, shamed and made to look like undesirable traits in today's western society.

 

[Stoneworker]

If you're going to be emasculated, at least look pretty doing it...

There’s an emerging disruptor in the beauty industry as companies target a different type of consumer to expand the half a trillion dollar market — men.

Across the globe, men’s adoption of beauty use is already starting to take off. 

Nearly 40% of adults aged 18-22 have shown interest in gender-neutral beauty products, according to NPD’s iGen Beauty Consumer report.

Men are a multibillion dollar growth opportunity for the beauty industry

 

[moleculo]

Maybe y'all have different social circles than I do, but I don't see this emasculation thing at all - not from people I know IRL,  people I see around town, etc.  Of course, I am a rural/suburban guy  - not a big city guy so YMMV. 

Most guys I know are into trucks (or jeeps), beer, and sports.  We work hard for their families and support our kids. We hunt, fish, camp, hike, mountain bike, etc.  We build things for work and play.  I can't think of anyone who would give 2 ####s about male beauty supply.

I know - this emasculated men thing - maybe it's real but it just doesn't square with what I see every day.

Maybe it's a generational thing - most guys I know are in the 40-55 demographic (like, I assume, most of us here), it's possible things are different with the <30 crowd.

 

[MAC_32]

I'm not sure how much you and I would see things eye to eye.  Maybe more than I would expect......  Either way, I appreciate this response.  I believe the biggest issue we face as a society is lack of parents setting the standard for their children to follow.  Or they set the standard very low and allow their kids to just go out into the wilderness not well equipped.

I wonder how prevalent the dynamic you described exists...  

Maybe y'all have different social circles than I do, but I don't see this emasculation thing at all - not from people I know IRL,  people I see around town, etc.  Of course, I am a rural/suburban guy  - not a big city guy so YMMV. 

Most guys I know are into trucks (or jeeps), beer, and sports.  We work hard for their families and support our kids. We hunt, fish, camp, hike, mountain bike, etc.  We build things for work and play.  I can't think of anyone who would give 2 ####s about male beauty supply.

I know - this emasculated men thing - maybe it's real but it just doesn't square with what I see every day.

Maybe it's a generational thing - most guys I know are in the 40-55 demographic (like, I assume, most of us here), it's possible things are different with the <30 crowd.

...because this generally fits my experience. We are a suburban middle class family that generally associates ourselves with other middle (and middle-upper) class families. Replace trucks and hunting with beaches and golf, but go 5-10 miles east of here and the dynamic flips and regardless it's somewhere under that umbrella. Where my wife and I see more of the dynamic Manster described is at our schools. We generally serve lower income students from a higher % of single parent households and that's where we see a lack of standards being set that then leads to more of this bad behavior.

 

[moleculo]

I wonder how prevalent the dynamic you described exists...  

...because this generally fits my experience. We are a suburban middle class family that generally associates ourselves with other middle (and middle-upper) class families. Replace trucks and hunting with beaches and golf, but go 5-10 miles east of here and the dynamic flips and regardless it's somewhere under that umbrella. Where my wife and I see more of the dynamic Manster described is at our schools. We generally serve lower income students from a higher % of single parent households and that's where we see a lack of standards being set that then leads to more of this bad behavior.

I don't see that dynamic with the HS guys I know either.  Of course, the guys I know are the ones that hang around with my daughters and/or involved in very disciplined sports (football & wrestling).  I probably don't see the whole picture. 

But then again, I'm not convinced this isn't older generations complaining about the younger...exactly like our patents generation complained about us, and theirs about them, and so on.

 

[MAC_32]

I don't see that dynamic with the HS guys I know either.  Of course, the guys I know are the ones that hang around with my daughters and/or involved in very disciplined sports (football & wrestling).  I probably don't see the whole picture. 

But then again, I'm not convinced this isn't older generations complaining about the younger...exactly like our patents generation complained about us, and theirs about them, and so on.

I agree it's probably more the latter than anything, but there is more enabling of the inmates running the asylum that's increasingly difficult to combat. My social experiences seem akin to yours, but our work exposures help us realize what's happening outside of them. I think we work for schools that have relatively strong leadership to fight these problems before and when they happen, but that structure has eroded elsewhere.

 

[BladeRunner]

If you're going to be emasculated, at least look pretty doing it...

There’s an emerging disruptor in the beauty industry as companies target a different type of consumer to expand the half a trillion dollar market — men.

Across the globe, men’s adoption of beauty use is already starting to take off. 

Nearly 40% of adults aged 18-22 have shown interest in gender-neutral beauty products, according to NPD’s iGen Beauty Consumer report.

Men are a multibillion dollar growth opportunity for the beauty industry

Gross.  

So The New ManTM is really about being like a woman as much as possible?  No thanks.  First world problems.  It's almost as if people don't have enough to do so they think of this nonsense.   If the world ever descends into chaos Western Civilization is in trouble.

 

[KarmaPolice]

Gross.  

So The New ManTM is really about being like a woman as much as possible?  No thanks.  First world problems.  It's almost as if people don't have enough to do so they think of this nonsense.   If the world ever descends into chaos Western Civilization is in trouble.

Come on, this isn't a new thing.    How long have dudes been convinced to pluck and shave their bodies, etc..? 20+ years ago, I already started seeing my male friends put in more time to get ready than my female friends.  

I mean, hell - didn't we go through this in the 80s or before with all the harispray and spandex and makeup?   Tons of dudes purposely looking like women.  

 

[Manster]

Maybe y'all have different social circles than I do, but I don't see this emasculation thing at all - not from people I know IRL,  people I see around town, etc.  Of course, I am a rural/suburban guy  - not a big city guy so YMMV. 

Most guys I know are into trucks (or jeeps), beer, and sports.  We work hard for their families and support our kids. We hunt, fish, camp, hike, mountain bike, etc.  We build things for work and play.  I can't think of anyone who would give 2 ####s about male beauty supply.

I know - this emasculated men thing - maybe it's real but it just doesn't square with what I see every day.

Maybe it's a generational thing - most guys I know are in the 40-55 demographic (like, I assume, most of us here), it's possible things are different with the <30 crowd.

I run in the same sort of social circles.  

What I see is our public school district leadership aggressively promoting all the SJW issues.....I'm not super concerned for my children, other than influence from other kids who buy in to all of it.

 

[Manster]

Come on, this isn't a new thing.    How long have dudes been convinced to pluck and shave their bodies, etc..? 20+ years ago, I already started seeing my male friends put in more time to get ready than my female friends.  

Its funny to think about.....I can't relate to dudes who shave their bodies....the GQ, metro crowd.....thats alien to me.

I run with a beer drinkin, pickup drivin, hunting, sports, camping crowd.......there is no getting ready.....we all wait for our wives to get ready......you know, the way it should be