So do you see a lot of stalling at the end of the game? 30 "kneel downs" to chew up the last 5 minutes?
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Why does America suck at rugby? (1 Viewer)
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El Floppo
Footballguy
appears to be a professional league here in the US now... saw a poster recently for a NY team, and thought I saw something on ESPN as well.
why the US isn't as good?
- no culture/history with the sport. it's basically where soccer was in the early 70s in the US before the NASL. nobody had any knowledge, history or interest because it essentially didn't exist. NASL introduced the entire country to the sport for the first time (en masse), so the generation growing up in the 70s and 80s were the first to actually play the sport recreationally. most parents' first time seeing the sport at all was their kid's first game, and it wasn't something you could watch on tv or read about in the papers until recently (this century). suffice to say- kids didn't go out in the yard for a kick with their parents they way they did with baseball, football, basketball. so for soccer, it's taken until about now- with a generation of kids growing up with a genuine professional league in MLS, the internet and cable tv providing MLS and any league you want at your fingertips, plus discussion. add that to the previously mentioned generation that grew up playing the sport now being in their 40s, 50s and 60s being able to talk and play the sport with their kids- and with the earning capacity to support or own teams and advertising. and the US still languishes behind the top 20 or so countries. (with higher hopes based on the development of professional academies tied to MLS teams... but that's another discussion).
hopefully with this new rugby league, the sport is on the start of that trajectory towards at least sustained advanced mediocrity.
but without active supporters in positions of power/money- there won't be enough interested parties bringing that money to support the sport and develop its growth. and that leads to an active and informed culture that won't happen until there are parents who played raising kids who play, getting to watch live and learn the sport at the highest level here in the US. again- for soccer- we're about 40 years into that experiment, and still not a world power.
re: athletes... the US is big, diverse and prosperous enough to produce world class athletes at whatever sport given the right support (cultural and financial). I don't know enough about the sport to talk too wisely... but it seems like there are a variety of body-types out there in rugby- the big bruisers in the scrums, and the guys who run (hookers?) out of it. that said- unlike the NFL- they all have to run, and with endurance... not short spurts with rests, so the 250lb+ guys aren't going to make it. what I've seen- for basis of comparison it looks like guys ranging from DBs to LBs with the occasional TE.
why the US isn't as good?
- no culture/history with the sport. it's basically where soccer was in the early 70s in the US before the NASL. nobody had any knowledge, history or interest because it essentially didn't exist. NASL introduced the entire country to the sport for the first time (en masse), so the generation growing up in the 70s and 80s were the first to actually play the sport recreationally. most parents' first time seeing the sport at all was their kid's first game, and it wasn't something you could watch on tv or read about in the papers until recently (this century). suffice to say- kids didn't go out in the yard for a kick with their parents they way they did with baseball, football, basketball. so for soccer, it's taken until about now- with a generation of kids growing up with a genuine professional league in MLS, the internet and cable tv providing MLS and any league you want at your fingertips, plus discussion. add that to the previously mentioned generation that grew up playing the sport now being in their 40s, 50s and 60s being able to talk and play the sport with their kids- and with the earning capacity to support or own teams and advertising. and the US still languishes behind the top 20 or so countries. (with higher hopes based on the development of professional academies tied to MLS teams... but that's another discussion).
hopefully with this new rugby league, the sport is on the start of that trajectory towards at least sustained advanced mediocrity.
but without active supporters in positions of power/money- there won't be enough interested parties bringing that money to support the sport and develop its growth. and that leads to an active and informed culture that won't happen until there are parents who played raising kids who play, getting to watch live and learn the sport at the highest level here in the US. again- for soccer- we're about 40 years into that experiment, and still not a world power.
re: athletes... the US is big, diverse and prosperous enough to produce world class athletes at whatever sport given the right support (cultural and financial). I don't know enough about the sport to talk too wisely... but it seems like there are a variety of body-types out there in rugby- the big bruisers in the scrums, and the guys who run (hookers?) out of it. that said- unlike the NFL- they all have to run, and with endurance... not short spurts with rests, so the 250lb+ guys aren't going to make it. what I've seen- for basis of comparison it looks like guys ranging from DBs to LBs with the occasional TE.
El Floppo
Footballguy
had two guys from my HS play rugby in college (for supposedly top teams)- both were good atheltes, but like your 2nd cousin, had never played before.
will be interesting to see what happens with this professional league I mentioned. here's a wiki-link... tough league in terms of travel- spread out to all corners of the US. with soccer, there were at least smaller, regional leagues in place prior to MLS
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Buckychudd
Footballguy
No, the action continues when there is a tackle. It's essentially a free ball at that point, the person in possession of the ball has a few seconds to position the ball towards their side but they need to release the ball.
Once a tackle is made there is a ruck over the tackled player as both teams struggle for possession for the ball. The teams have to come over the tackled player from their sides, i.e. they can't just grab the ball from the side. Rucks can get pretty dang violent as you're essentially trying to push the other teams players back over the ball and you can come in very hard....rucks are generally more violent than the tackles themselves.
Edit - Rucking Examples
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=27oZyXBPL4A
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J_5Q31CB10I
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CletiusMaximus
Footballguy
The one caveat here is that 7s is not real rugby. The US does pretty well in 7's, because it is primarily a game of raw speed and athleticism, with much less emphasis on tactics and skills, almost no scrumming or rucking. Just as a start, real rugby is played with 15 players on each team on the field, whereas 7s is played with ... you can probably guess how many.
Your general point is true though - there are few opportunities for young kids to learn the game or begin developing skills at a young age. Just as an anecdote, when I was in high school as a kid, there was no rugby at my school or anywhere in my small semi-rural midwest community (nor was there any soccer.) I learned the game when I lived in N.Zealand for a year as a kid. My son's high school (starting next fall) has a rugby team that travels all over the midwest for games. Almost all decent sized high schools in our area now have rugby, including many girls teams. That's not to say I expect the sport to take off in the US any time soon, which seems highly unlikely to me.
CletiusMaximus
Footballguy
You're essentially spot on here, with a few caveats. The new pro league is not the first attempt at professional rugby in the US, but it does have pretty good television support so there's certainly a chance it sticks around for a while at least. There is also a newly proposed 12 nation super league for international play that will (if passed) replace the existing haphazard status quo of teams making ad hoc tours each summer with no rhyme or reason to them. This new international league will have 12 teams separated into two divisions, and the US is proposed to be in the 2nd or B division. It will have pro/rel.
However, for now, the best US rugby players have to go abroad to make a career out of it.
Televised rugby options in general are awesome right now - way better than 5 or 10 years ago. I can basically watch whatever games I want to watch within reason.
Generally, its true that football skills will not translate well to rugby, but of course many of those top athletes would be good at rugby if they were trained to play it from a young age. All rugby players have to run hard for 40 minute halves with no real break, like soccer, which I think all but eliminates most NFL players in their current condition. That's not a knock, just reality that they train for 5 second bursts of energy, interspersed with 30-40 second resting, not constant running for 40 minutes. All players have to be able to tackle and handle the ball, and most have to be able to kick the ball effectively on the run. Of course any given player can be better at some skills and weak at others, but there's really very little room to put a guy in who can run really fast, but can't tackle, kick or handle the ball, for example. As in soccer, when the US loses in Rugby it is rarely because our guys are not big, strong or fast enough. Its because they're not very good at playing rugby.
Buckychudd
Footballguy
As far as the competitiveness of rugby and other international sports such as soccer, just wait 15 years. I coach youth football and the numbers of kids we have entering the sport today is half what it was just 5-10 years ago. As much as I love football it's reached it's zenith and I expect declining participation for the foreseeable future.
Many of those kids who would have played football are now entering other sports like soccer, rugby, lacrosse, etc. You'll start to see our competitiveness in those sports take off.
Many of those kids who would have played football are now entering other sports like soccer, rugby, lacrosse, etc. You'll start to see our competitiveness in those sports take off.
Ted Lange as your Bartender
Footballguy
Does Europe have the best leagues? How does the Australian league stack up for example? Is there any cross-continental club competitions? And I know that that there's differences between Rugby League and Rugby Union (what those are exactly...
)
CletiusMaximus
Footballguy
There's quite bit here Ted, and I'm not the best guy to give good answers to all these.Does Europe have the best leagues? How does the Australian league stack up for example? Is there any cross-continental club competitions? And I know that that there's differences between Rugby League and Rugby Union (what those are exactly...
I'm not able to compare leagues with any certainty. I'm sure I've never seen an Australian rugby union league game. I'd expect their league is pretty good, but I know they really like their own game ("Aussie Rules Football") much better. I watch games from England, which is a big league with big clubs that feature stars from all over the world. I also watch the Heineken Cup games, which are just European clubs. The English and Irish clubs are currently the best in that competition. I'm kind of assuming those are the best clubs because they draw the top stars from all over the world, and they are televised here (and I believe around the world.) I don't know if there are any cross-continental games at the club level. There probably are, but I don't follow it closely enough at that level to know. I would say, if there are such games, they are more in the nature of exhibitions.
The basic difference between Rugby League (which I don't like, but is very popular) and Rugby Union (the most popular, most common, considered "real rugby") is in the scrumming and rucking - the part of the game that, to someone who doesn't know rugby, looks like piles of guys pushing and kicking each other. League does much less of that, its much more open game. Scrums and Rucks are a very important part of Rugby Union, not nearly as important in League.
I have been watching more and more rugby and it is fascinating and brutal but I have no idea what I am watching or what is happening. I know they have to get a "touchdown" to score but I have no idea what prompts a scrum or a throw in or how the ball gets turned over. I know there are random kick and chases but don't know what that really does for you.
It is fascinating and I am afraid to learn the rules as it may make it less fascinating than me just making up why they are doing things and trying to figure it out by just watching..haha
It is fascinating and I am afraid to learn the rules as it may make it less fascinating than me just making up why they are doing things and trying to figure it out by just watching..haha
NewlyRetired
Footballguy
how big are the rugby fields? I was wondering if the American rugby league could rent some of the MLS stadiums which would be cheaper and better than renting the gigantic football stadiums..
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Ted Lange as your Bartender
Footballguy
El Floppo
Footballguy
as a major soccer guy, this is what we've been saying about soccer... for 40 years... and we're still not there yet.Buckychudd said:
it's going to take generations to take a sport like rugby and make it grow to any world-competitive place for the US, IMO. the internet and cable sports will definitely help attract an audience quicker (soccer didn't have that in MLS's first years/decade+), but it's going to take a couple of generations to grow up with it, watch it together, understand it, play/talk about it and then get critical mass of human and dollar numbers to push it into something that kids see as a viable "profession". soccer is just getting there (because of the MLS academies). but hopefully its faster for rugby...
I think of friends who went to europe to play pro football (nfl-style) and baseball back in the 80s/90s. people that knew the sports liked them, but there just wasn't an understanding of them culturally across the board (or even in more than a small way)- and there wasn't much money in them. my friends basically got to live over there, play, and then work local jobs to help cover expenses (set up by the teams). soccer was a little different- guys went and did the same at lower divisions, but then some worked their way up to the big leagues and full-time professional status. I image rugby players are kinda like that. hell- even MLS soccer players have really only just started to probably not have to work in the off-season... league minimums used to be sooooo low.
SFBayDuck
Footballguy
Yeah, that's pretty much where I am, but it's come in watching my nephew several times through high school. He's now a freshman at Cal, obviously one of the top programs in the country with 5 championships and a 2nd place finish in the last 9 years. But I still haven't figured out the details of the game or what's going on most of the time.Gally said:
He was an all-league football player on both offense (fullback) and defense (linebacker), but picked up rugby in middle school and focused more and more on that as he got older. I think he would have had a few opportunities to play football at the college level, but he developed in to one of the top players in all of California in rugby and made it clear in his recruitment that he'd be pursuing that in college. I happened to be in Salt Lake City for work when he was there for a national tournament before his junior year, and every damned coach we walked by that day new who he was.
Anyway, looking forward to learning more about the game and watching him over the next few years. Pretty cool that there is a professional league in the works, might give him some good opportunities after school if he wants to keep playing.
El Floppo
Footballguy
was rugby a HS sport for him? or just club?
one of the HS guys I mentioned up thread went to Cal to play- was a fantastic baseball player in HS.
NewlyRetired
Footballguy
Buttonhook
Footballguy
I agree with Flop, just like soccer, it will take the USA a few generations of commitment until we can compete on the world stage of rugby.
I lived in NZ about 25 years ago and totally fell in love with rugby. I used to argue about putting Barry Sanders, Deion, and Urlacher out there and how we could destroy the All-Blacks. That argument didn't go over well with the Kiwis, but it was always a fun conversation, and a great way to get them really riled up after a few beers. They take their rugby down their VERY seriously, nothing like American fans of any sport, only thing comparable from a fandom standpoint that I can think of would be European or South American futbol fans.
When comparing it to the NFL, I agree with other posters points about the endurance it takes to play rugby, as I kind of compare it to a mix of wresting and soccer. But the biggest difference I saw was how friggin' tough rugby players are. They might not have the physical skills of superior American athletes, but they would easily make up for it by out-grinding us with their physical and mental toughness. Much like you can't really appreciate the size and speed of the NFL until you go to training camp or can get close in an NFL game, you really don't get a sense of how tough a rugby game is until you watch a pro game up close and realize how little time they take off from going full speed, and that one of the biggest objectives in the game is to wear your opponent out, physically, but also mentally.
What blows me away is how these guys that have been playing rugby their whole lives don't have more issues with CTE. Maybe they do and it's not as publicized as the NFL. I know they tend to tackle differently and avoid leading with their head, but damn those guys in the scrum don't hold back from banging their bare heads together all the time.
I lived in NZ about 25 years ago and totally fell in love with rugby. I used to argue about putting Barry Sanders, Deion, and Urlacher out there and how we could destroy the All-Blacks. That argument didn't go over well with the Kiwis, but it was always a fun conversation, and a great way to get them really riled up after a few beers. They take their rugby down their VERY seriously, nothing like American fans of any sport, only thing comparable from a fandom standpoint that I can think of would be European or South American futbol fans.
When comparing it to the NFL, I agree with other posters points about the endurance it takes to play rugby, as I kind of compare it to a mix of wresting and soccer. But the biggest difference I saw was how friggin' tough rugby players are. They might not have the physical skills of superior American athletes, but they would easily make up for it by out-grinding us with their physical and mental toughness. Much like you can't really appreciate the size and speed of the NFL until you go to training camp or can get close in an NFL game, you really don't get a sense of how tough a rugby game is until you watch a pro game up close and realize how little time they take off from going full speed, and that one of the biggest objectives in the game is to wear your opponent out, physically, but also mentally.
What blows me away is how these guys that have been playing rugby their whole lives don't have more issues with CTE. Maybe they do and it's not as publicized as the NFL. I know they tend to tackle differently and avoid leading with their head, but damn those guys in the scrum don't hold back from banging their bare heads together all the time.
SaintsInDome2006
Footballguy
Isn't World Cup 15 vs 15? - Any thoughts on 7s vs 15 vs 15? Why does 7 man rugby exist and why is it played in college or anywhere if the idea is to get us competitive on the world stage??
CletiusMaximus
Footballguy
I posted my thoughts on 7s above. Its not "real rugby" - but is very popular in the US. I lived in N. Zealand for a year (where rugby is #1) and never heard of 7s. Its a high-scoring, stripped down version of the game that is wide-open and honestly bears little resemblance to real rugby in my opinion. The best 7s teams will be made up of fast athletes, not big guys who play in the scrum for the 15s. When I played here in the US, we would play a few 7s tournaments every summer just to stay fit and stay together, but we never practiced it. Its like a soccer player doing some futsal in the winter. I seriously doubt that any of the players on the US 7s team also play for the national rugby team (the "Eagles.")
I believe there is a 7s world cup, and there are definitely lots of 7s competitions. I've honestly got no interest in watching the game on television or otherwise, but acknowledge it is very popular and have no problem with folks who enjoy the 7s.
SFBayDuck
Footballguy
It was club, his high school in Pleasanton didn't have a team. I think that's still pretty much the case here in the Bay Area, for the most part.
SaintsInDome2006
Footballguy
Ted Lange as your Bartender
Footballguy
From wiki:
Playing area
Sevens is played on a standard rugby union playing field. The field measures up to 100 metres (330 ft) long and 70 metres (230 ft) wide.[7][8] On each goal line are H-shaped goal posts. The goal posts are on the goal line. This is unlike American football in which the posts are behind the back of the goal line.
Judge Smails
Footballguy
My Irish friend said this exactly. We're really good at 7's. Fast game, nowhere close to being as physical. Even the Irish Federation is trying to grow the game in the US. Big problem is development options. No college scholarships for rugby. UCLA and Notre Dame are the two that would like to lead the way. To me rugby is where we saw lacrosse 10+ years ago. It'll take time. But it's getting more TV play with 6 Nations etc so it's a start.CletiusMaximus said:
These guys in Ireland, NZ etc are beasts. Thighs bigger than my waist, and I ain't tiny.
Buttonhook
Footballguy
Do you really think rugby will grow that much in the US? Is it really that much safer than football? Didn't seem like it when I watched it a lot. Guys got hurt all the time, but unlike ####ifyed-spoiled NFL players they seem to have a completely different level of pain tolerance.
I was wondering the same thing. One of my thoughts on the NFL and concussions was that if you got rid of helmets the instances would go down because then people wouldn't lead with their head. My example was rugby as an example but I never really had the impetus to go and research if concussions were really less in rugby. I think it would be an interesting comparison for the medical/sports/CTE research community to do.
Buckychudd
Footballguy
Yes I'm admittedly being overly optimistic.
However, the one thing that Ruby and Soccer have now that they didn't have 40 years ago is a decline in football participation. Right now youth football is in a huge decline and I don't expect that to stop anytime soon. Those kids are pouring into alternative sports like Rugby, Soccer, Lacrosse, etc. We didn't have this kind of transition in the 80s, 90s, or even 00s.
El Floppo
Footballguy
Interesting about football. My dad played college ball with Johnny U (or near him, at least), but because of injury concerns didn't want my brother or me playing.
Fwiw, I remember reading a stat back in the 80s that more kids were playing organized soccer in the US than football and baseball combined. That's the generation who's kids are decent pros now. Also... Although I know what you mean as a sport outside the big four (I'd even say three)- doesn't really paint soccer as "alternative".
I grew up in CA, and I've heard lacrosse is getting huge there now in HS. It didn't exist there when I was growing up.
El Floppo
Footballguy
AAABatteries
Footballguy
I think the answer to this question about any sport is:
1. Most of us, and more importantly our best athletes, don't grow up playing it
2. It's not import to us/not part of our national fabric like say baseball is
3. There's not money in it - at least here in the States
We are a huge nation with world class athletes all over the country - if kids magically started playing rugby the same way they play football or basketball then within a generation or two we would be a top team - not necessarily the best but Cletius' top 7 would be a top 8
1. Most of us, and more importantly our best athletes, don't grow up playing it
2. It's not import to us/not part of our national fabric like say baseball is
3. There's not money in it - at least here in the States
We are a huge nation with world class athletes all over the country - if kids magically started playing rugby the same way they play football or basketball then within a generation or two we would be a top team - not necessarily the best but Cletius' top 7 would be a top 8
NewlyRetired
Footballguy
after 40+ years soccer finally has a strong foothold here in the US.
So in the next 40 years, who will be the next to break through?
Lacrosse, Rugby, something I never heard of yet?
So in the next 40 years, who will be the next to break through?
Lacrosse, Rugby, something I never heard of yet?
Buttonhook
Footballguy
I've shared this before, but whenever I watched a football game with my grandfather and someone would get knocked out after a player led with his head he would point at the TV and rant:
"This would never happen if they used leather helmets like we used to!"
CletiusMaximus
Footballguy
Several years ago, when Troy Aikman first publicly stated that he did not want his boys playing football, his suggestion was also a return to leather helmets. Having played both football and rugby for many years, I certainly agree the helmets and shoulder pads used in football (and hip/knee pads, arm pads, other "protection"), are at least as much offensive weapons as they are protective devices. NFL style big hits are extremely rare in rugby because its hard to throw your head at a runner's knees or elbows if you're not wearing a helmet. There's one other factor though that also plays into this - in football, it is often very important to stop a runner cold in his tracks. It is often a game of inches, and a good tackle will drive the runner back rather than allow him to fall forward. In rugby, except on the goal line, its usually fine if the runner drags the tackler forward a few yards, as long as the progress is stopped while other teammates arrive and a ruck or maul is formed. This is to say that hard hitting is not as important to rugby as it is in football. All that said, the only concussion I got that I'm aware of was playing rugby. I also broke my nose once and fractured an ankle. Waking up the morning after a rugby game was always an extremely painful moment, although part of that was the inevitable massive hangover I always had from the post-game party. I don't believe I had any memorable injuries playing 4 years of football in high school.
AAABatteries
Footballguy
Buckychudd
Footballguy
Ok not to muck up this thread but the A squad of my son’s rugby team beat the number 2 ranked team in the nation at nationals today! Super stoked.
Granted my son is a freshman and doesn’t sniff the A squad but pretty exciting nonetheless.
Granted my son is a freshman and doesn’t sniff the A squad but pretty exciting nonetheless.
Rustoleum
Footballguy
I think most of our better athletes would like to keep their ears attached to their heads, more or less.
Caught Saracens vs Leinster on TV last week and besides the cauliflower ears on the active players, whenever they cut to the management box, every last one of those dudes looked like Dobby the House Elf.
Caught Saracens vs Leinster on TV last week and besides the cauliflower ears on the active players, whenever they cut to the management box, every last one of those dudes looked like Dobby the House Elf.
culdeus
Footballguy
Ilov80s
Footballguy
Looking more and more like this is true. Obama didn’t do #### to help us get better at Rugby.
Ilov80s
Footballguy
Nope.
Just an over abundance of big fast athletes unlike anywhere else.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y47J8xXC-uE
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Ilov80s
Footballguy
Buckychudd
Footballguy
Buckychudd
Footballguy
USA Men's 7s finished ranked #2 in the world. I know it's not real rugby but still....
Link - https://www.usarugby.org/match/48061-usa-eagles-v-south-africa/
Link - https://www.usarugby.org/match/48061-usa-eagles-v-south-africa/
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Beef Ravioli
Footballguy
Came across this video on Facebook, made me remember this thread. Old school rugby players were nuts! Is it still like this?
https://youtu.be/qLXwz2Ha75w
https://youtu.be/qLXwz2Ha75w
CletiusMaximus
Footballguy
I didn't watch the whole thing, but the first few clips look like they are from a Sunday old-guys league. In my experience, shoving, punching, cleating, etc. is pretty common in these games, but these same guys will then be having beers together and laughing about it after the game. Its rare to see any sort of serious fighting. In professional or high-level amateur/college games, fights like this are non-existent, or at worst extremely rare.
p.s. This youtube clip shows Rugby League games, which is a game similar but imo far inferior to Rugby Union (what I call "real rugby").
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