Why does the NFL have QBs that cannot play QB? (1 Viewer)

[Wigglytuff's Gruff]

None of it really tests whether you can cut it in the NFL though does it.

I'd suggest even training camp tells you more than College, or any other 4th/5th rate competition, about whether a guy is actually good enough.

That is part of the issue. The NFL is so much higher a level of competitiveness that it's virtually impossible to replicate in any meaningful way. The best, and only real way to develop to the required level is to sink or swim at that level. There is no near facsimile.

 

[InDitkaWeTrust]

It seems like 6-8 of the XFL/USFL quarterbacks could do a better job than Devito, but that’s just my uneducated perception.

This is what I mean. Again, not trying to call one person out but even when teams went to replacement players 30 years ago they were able to execute an offense. There are a bunch of college players that can execute an offense every week. Not saying it’s pretty but if you have a line that can reasonably block and players that can reasonably get open you should be able to execute a forward pass.


even if you don’t (Tebow) have an arm you can create an offense that plays to what the player CAN do. you figure there are what 200 college qbs (starters and backups) plus guys in other leagues and retired guys who still have some tread and ability. (Rams just brought back wentz).

teams bring in “camp arms” in training camp. Can’t those guys throw passes? Figure we need 105 guys to play the position in a “serviceable” way. Figure 10-15 are “elite”. another 20 are good so you need 70 guys to be “serviceable “.

just seems to me that either coaches are too lazy to build around “outliers” that could win or that there is a very very narrow range of guys who can play. Maybe it’s both. It just boggles my mind that you’d have a guy third string on your team that cannot throw the ball.

Just stop it with the XFL talk. The vast majority of the players in that league are a few months away from desk jobs and bagging groceries. The rules are such that it is a high paced, exciting game.

And the Tebow nonsense is just that. Dude was an exceptional athlete and the OCs that worked with him used some pretty crazy schemes to move the ball. Once DCs understood the schemes, his production was almost completely shut down.

The real reason MOST backups have a difficult time is that offensive schemes are taylored in the offseason for the starter. Once the QB1 goes down, they have to pare down that playbook to suit the backup, which reduces OC creativity in-game and cues for the DEF to know when to tee it up. Creating an offense suited to one person's strengths is hard. Retooling that playbook for another is nigh impossible.

 

[BassNBrew]

None of it really tests whether you can cut it in the NFL though does it.

I'd suggest even training camp tells you more than College, or any other 4th/5th rate competition, about whether a guy is actually good enough.

That is part of the issue. The NFL is so much higher a level of competitiveness that it's virtually impossible to replicate in any meaningful way. The best, and only real way to develop to the required level is to sink or swim at that level. There is no near facsimile.

Not trying to be argumentative. Wouldn't hitting a baseball be a similar skill that involves more than just size, speed, strength? Baseball players develop that skill at a lower level of competition.

I wonder if the lack of games hinders development. High school and college max out at 10-13 games a year. Basketball gets that amount done in 2 months and baseball just a month. Those seasons are also significantly longer which give players more time to hone their craft.

 

[Wigglytuff's Gruff]

None of it really tests whether you can cut it in the NFL though does it.

I'd suggest even training camp tells you more than College, or any other 4th/5th rate competition, about whether a guy is actually good enough.

That is part of the issue. The NFL is so much higher a level of competitiveness that it's virtually impossible to replicate in any meaningful way. The best, and only real way to develop to the required level is to sink or swim at that level. There is no near facsimile.

Not trying to be argumentative. Wouldn't hitting a baseball be a similar skill that involves more than just size, speed, strength? Baseball players develop that skill at a lower level of competition.

I wonder if the lack of games hinders development. High school and college max out at 10-13 games a year. Basketball gets that amount done in 2 months and baseball just a month. Those seasons are also significantly longer which give players more time to hone their craft.

I don't know all that much about baseball dude, but I'm going to assume based on the little I do know, that the minor leagues of baseball is a half decent standard filled with young and developing talent. I'd also argue that baseball is fundamentally a more basic game than Gridiron. It seems like a small, repetitive set of skills mastered to an exceptionally high level. Obviously the guys at the top level are immensely talented still.

Playing QB is arguably the single most difficult role to master in all of sport the world over. There are so many individual elements that a guy has to master, some of them completely intangible. I don't see any world where you can replicate the highest level possible for anyone, or even get close to it. Myles Garrett closing in on you in a collapsing pocket while all your receivers are completely covered only happens in one place.

 

[BassNBrew]

None of it really tests whether you can cut it in the NFL though does it.

I'd suggest even training camp tells you more than College, or any other 4th/5th rate competition, about whether a guy is actually good enough.

That is part of the issue. The NFL is so much higher a level of competitiveness that it's virtually impossible to replicate in any meaningful way. The best, and only real way to develop to the required level is to sink or swim at that level. There is no near facsimile.

Not trying to be argumentative. Wouldn't hitting a baseball be a similar skill that involves more than just size, speed, strength? Baseball players develop that skill at a lower level of competition.

I wonder if the lack of games hinders development. High school and college max out at 10-13 games a year. Basketball gets that amount done in 2 months and baseball just a month. Those seasons are also significantly longer which give players more time to hone their craft.

I don't know all that much about baseball dude, but I'm going to assume based on the little I do know, that the minor leagues of baseball is a half decent standard filled with young and developing talent. I'd also argue that baseball is fundamentally a more basic game than Gridiron. It seems like a small, repetitive set of skills mastered to an exceptionally high level. Obviously the guys at the top level are immensely talented still.

Playing QB is arguably the single most difficult role to master in all of sport the world over. There are so many individual elements that a guy has to master, some of them completely intangible. I don't see any world where you can replicate the highest level possible for anyone, or even get close to it. Myles Garrett closing in on you in a collapsing pocket while all your receivers are completely covered only happens in one place.

Is it not feasible that 80% Myles Garrett collapsing on your 80% Lane Johnson while your 80% Jefferson is covered by 80% Sauce Gardner is enough of a replication to develop?

 

[Hankmoody]

I think it just speaks to the enormous difficulty of the job

That's it. No further discussion.

NFL shot themselves in the foot when they abandoned NFL Europe. They need some kind of minor league to develop QB's and get them experience.

The college game? Canada? The other spring crappy leagues?

i guess in some ways it comes down to coaching. there are multiple types of qbs but not a lot of “innovation “ in coaching at the pro level. Usually it’s innovation at the college ranks that leads nfl changes.

The college game clearly isn't enough, there's too big a disparity in the level of competition plus the level of individual coaching and the fact they only get 3-5 year after high school and then it's no longer available to them. Some of these guys come out with a lot of potential but don't get the snaps or the mentoring they need to keep learning.

The NFL isn't involved with the CFL but sure, use that too. FInd a way to get involved and get QB's developed. They got Jeff Garcia from the CFL. However the NFL fully funded (and occasionally profited from) NFL Europe. It was NFL caliber coaches and NFL taxi-caliber players being developed. Kurt Warner, Jeff Garcia, Jake Delhomme, Jon Kitna, James Harrison, there were some real gems that went through that program. They scrapped it due to proft but man a $30M loss (2007 money, about $50M today) seems like a really good investment to get Kurt Warner into the league.

 

[Wigglytuff's Gruff]

Is it not feasible that 80% Myles Garrett collapsing on your 80% Lane Johnson while your 80% Jefferson is covered by 80% Sauce Gardner is enough of a replication to develop?

I don't think it's feasible that you could create 80% of those players outside an NFL environment dude. That's the point

80% of Myles Garrett is playing in the NFL earning tens of millions of dollars every year already. There isn't another Gridiron competition that is even half the standard of the NFL. Even the best two teams in college are still littered with players who are going to be working normal jobs in the immediate future.

 

[BassNBrew]

Is it not feasible that 80% Myles Garrett collapsing on your 80% Lane Johnson while your 80% Jefferson is covered by 80% Sauce Gardner is enough of a replication to develop?

I don't think it's feasible that you could create 80% of those players outside an NFL environment dude. That's the point

80% of Myles Garrett is playing in the NFL earning tens of millions of dollars every year already. There isn't another Gridiron competition that is even half the standard of the NFL. Even the best two teams in college are still littered with players who are going to be working normal jobs in the immediate future.

Top mile performances in 2023

Male pro - 223 seconds
College - 243 indoor
High school - 240

223 is 80% of 279. Different sports but the top high school miler is less than 8% slower than the best pro.

I think the guys Myles is dominating are 95% of his talent. If they were only 80%, Myles is getting 50 sacks a year.

 

[Wigglytuff's Gruff]

Semantic argument really isn't it. Just gonna talk past each other if we continue with these arbitrary numbers.

Suffice to say that I don't believe there is, or is going to be a competition to can adequately test or assist in developing a QB to play in the NFL. It's simply too good.

 

[creepythinman]

Specifically the NY Giants. How is someone who cannot do anything a QB in this league? Even third string. I feel the Giants would have better luck if Saquon just played in the wildcat all game.

Not talking about Mac Jones, or Zach Wilson, guys with middling talent that can't seem to put it together. Heck, People hated on Tebow but at least the offense moved down the field.

Guys like Purdy, Sklar Thompson in Miami and the like have proven guys at the end of the draft can at least throw the ball down field with some accuracy. Is this simply malpractice by the Giants coaching staff (I know Jones and Tyrod where plan A and B, but plan C has to be able to throw the ball, no?)

If DeVito's last name is Johnson and if he didn't play in Syracuse, he probably isn't in the NFL today.

 

[Bri]

It seems like 6-8 of the XFL/USFL quarterbacks could do a better job than Devito, but that’s just my uneducated perception.

This is what I mean. Again, not trying to call one person out but even when teams went to replacement players 30 years ago they were able to execute an offense. There are a bunch of college players that can execute an offense every week. Not saying it’s pretty but if you have a line that can reasonably block and players that can reasonably get open you should be able to execute a forward pass.


even if you don’t (Tebow) have an arm you can create an offense that plays to what the player CAN do. you figure there are what 200 college qbs (starters and backups) plus guys in other leagues and retired guys who still have some tread and ability. (Rams just brought back wentz).

teams bring in “camp arms” in training camp. Can’t those guys throw passes? Figure we need 105 guys to play the position in a “serviceable” way. Figure 10-15 are “elite”. another 20 are good so you need 70 guys to be “serviceable “.

just seems to me that either coaches are too lazy to build around “outliers” that could win or that there is a very very narrow range of guys who can play. Maybe it’s both. It just boggles my mind that you’d have a guy third string on your team that cannot throw the ball.

Just stop it with the XFL talk. The vast majority of the players in that league are a few months away from desk jobs and bagging groceries. The rules are such that it is a high paced, exciting game.

And the Tebow nonsense is just that. Dude was an exceptional athlete and the OCs that worked with him used some pretty crazy schemes to move the ball. Once DCs understood the schemes, his production was almost completely shut down.

The real reason MOST backups have a difficult time is that offensive schemes are taylored in the offseason for the starter. Once the QB1 goes down, they have to pare down that playbook to suit the backup, which reduces OC creativity in-game and cues for the DEF to know when to tee it up. Creating an offense suited to one person's strengths is hard. Retooling that playbook for another is nigh impossible.

Getting a bit off topic. The Q is about NFL QBs that can't play QB. Still I'll play w XFL USFL.

Alex McGough was the best QB Butch Davis ever coached per him. He was very good one preseason in Seattle. (Guessing memory here) it was him or a veteran QB whenever Wilson was dinged up. In December they needed a roster spot and waived McGough. He'd beat out Nick Foles and a fifth round pick in Jags camp. Then a surprise day two cut. Texans signed him to the largest PS contract ever and they literally rewrote the rule after. He never played. Where was his development and opportunity? He made the Packers as a late signee as a third stringer.

Taylor Heinicke has started many games. He was a backup to Jordan Taamu. Taamu works out w NFL WRs.

Chad Kelly had a mouth to him when he was cut and after one preseason didn't get a chance again. He did especially well in the CFL last year.

A few years back, the Broncos and Jags had a CFL QB in for a workout and went into a bidding war. Then suddenly each side removed their offers. A couple weeks later one of them lowballed him and he was frustrated and stayed in the CFL.

TE Sal Canella has been dominant in the USFL. As a rookie in GB, he was consistently promised playing time that never came. Lafleur didn't want him to play in XFL and he agreed but didn't get playing time so he quit to play in the USFL. Now teams don't want him.

Louis Aguilar kicked 8 FGs in a game (besides season stats) and didn't get signed by an NFL team yet we watch poor kickers.

A few years back, a starting CB allowed no catches for the season. No NFL invites. Next year like two catches. He then went and made the Chargers. He barely got opportunity in summer, again zero catches allowed in preseason, and then finally got in late season in a game or two.

Have you seen Kevontae Turpin? Idk what's what on finer details but if speedy shifty guys like that can be covered well, then I want to see that CB in the NFL preseason. Is it moves? Speed? If they're keeping up w him then who in the NFL is that much faster? Ya know it's as if XFL guys run a 5 second 40 and NFL guys run a 4 second 40 or somesuch while I'm here thinking wow that corner can move. Also, I don't like what I see from a lot of depth CBs, do you?

The spring leagues have brought 8? 14? and then this year was the most with many in camp but maybe 30-40 made NFL teams. That's not many at all and it progressed fine. 100-200 players and now they're high point is like one percent team. That's realistic and not shine.

I watch a lot of players take a play off. I want more hungry guys that will hustle like their job depends on it because it should. Also, I firmly believe there is less skill and more determination involved in ST. None of these attributes are talent per se.

I pretend like the rest, that I can evaluate depth WRs but what do I know. I see several in spring leagues running routes sharp with great cuts and learning blocking from Hines Ward. In the NFL I see a rounded cut and lazy route and ....there's some depth WRs that I'd definitely prefer from the XFL.

I think there ought to be more.
I think Titans Bears etc losing teams should be rotating guys thru their rosters and seeing if they can improve right now because their product stinks and next year they'll need more roster overhaul than is possible in one year. Any random fan can point out some players that stink so try someone else, and then another and another.
What bothers me more than anything about the NFL is when a player stinks and he continues to play. That's not sports that's not coaching that's not pride in their product etc etc.

 

[Biabreakable]

What Bri says is true that teams give the players a longer leash than they likely should, although there is a lot of turnover in the league.

I do think there are players who may be marginally better than players getting opportunities who never get that chance. I do think that happens in time if they keep outperforming in practice, but that takes awhile, if it ever happens.

What may be overlooked here is that these decisions are not made purely on relative skill and ability. These are human beings and the relationships they have with team members and coaches is a factor in these decisions as well.

How do the coaches get their jobs? Through their relationships with other coaches and the players. That same thing happens in their personnel decisions also, just as it does in any workplace.

Coaches want to show loyalty to their players not just for the specific players themselves but for the example it sets with all of the players on the team.

To give an example of this Cordarralle Patterson and Adam Thielen joined the Vikings in the same season as rookies. Both made the team but even in otas Thielen outplayed Patterson.

Patterson was a 1st round pick Thielen was a try out walk on player. Patterson had to fail to meet expectations for a long time before the Vikings finally gave the opportunity to Thielen.

 

[Gatorman]

I think there ought to be more.
I think Titans Bears etc losing teams should be rotating guys thru their rosters and seeing if they can improve right now because their product stinks and next year they'll need more roster overhaul than is possible in one year. Any random fan can point out some players that stink so try someone else, and then another and another.
What bothers me more than anything about the NFL is when a player stinks and he continues to play. That's not sports that's not coaching that's not pride in their product etc etc.

Guys always come out of the woodwork and all it takes is opportunity. Now, you can call guys like Brady, Dak, Cousins, Purdy, Kurt Warner, Tony Romo, a few guys who played for san fran out of the CFL back in the day, Russel Wilson are all OUTLIERS. but the fact remains there are likely more NFL style QBs "out there" than you think, and they don't simply need a first or second day grade to be . Even guys like Tua and Tannyhill who had first round pedigrees needed the correct system to flourish. Brees was dinged bc of his height and fell to the bottom of the first because of it. He was "replaced" by Rivers even though he had a decent career in SD.

So coaches either have to go looking for backups that fit the starters "system" or need to be nible enough to create a new "system" around their personell/QB (or in a third case, know how much of the playbook is for the elite guy and how much would work for the second and third string)

Matt Cassell was a serviceable QB in the NFL and was the second string to Carson Palmer at SC; never started a college game, but Bill B knew his recruiting stats and got him for nothing and developed and traded him away. I think coaches/evaluators are just not looking hard enough.

I think there is a definite blind spot here, and I think guys in the league and specifically Daboll have whiffed on this particular situation. The Dobbs hot potato through 3 teams kind of shows that as well.

Again, I find it odd. DeVito seems so outclassed out there that there has to be someone out there delivering UPS boxes that could do better. To be fair, Bryce Young has looked a bit like that too, so sometimes it is all the other moving parts on a team.

Not sure if anything can be done about it as I think it is more an issue of "practice reps" in training camp being less than before.

 

[Donnybrook]

I agree that coaches and evaluators are not looking hard enough but I also think that are not truly objective.

QBs get graded in high school and that grade follows them through out college career. Mater Dei High school produced Matt Lienart, Colt Brennan, Matt Barkley, and Brice Young etc. Gms say to themselfs that these players have been in the spotlight for a half a dozen years and they should be able to handle it in the NFL. I understand that somewhat but they still weigh the blue chip recruits too heavily.

I think that only recently that scouts are looking beyond the college QB royalty that had easiest path to the NFL. That siad, I wonder how Michael Pratt would look on a team with USC's talent and how Caleb Williams would look playing for Tulane.

 

[baconstripdivots]

Devito wasn't meant to play this year - development project pressed into service too soon at a league minimum cap hit

-QG

I couldn't agree more. Brutal situation for a player who showed enough ability in camp to make the practice squad roster, where coaching could work on making him a potential NFL active roster QB.

It goes without saying that if a player is good enough to make a practice squad or active NFL roster at any offensive or defensive position, results are expected. As many have stated previously, the QB talent drops off quickly.

As a Giants fan, it's ridiculous for anyone to bash this kid's play. The offensive line has been so horrible this year that they've allowed Jones and Taylor to get pounded on time and time again. Unfortunately Tommy DeVito is just the next deer in headlights for defensive lines who must be frothing at the mouth.

Hopefully they game plan around the miserable situation they're in. I'm pulling for the kid who is in probably the worst case scenario imaginable.

 

[jm192]

I get why the NBA, NFL, and MLB have 30 or 32 teams, but, across all of them it seems there isn't enough talent to go around. Contracting to 24 would make for better games overall, but it'll never happen.

They're raking in stupid money every year. They don't have an incentive to improve on the bad games. People go to bad games. People turn the bad games on their tv and see the advertisements. I knew Bears/Panthers for last week's TNF was going to be a disaster, but I turned it on anyways. Bad football often better than no football.

 

[TwinTurbo]

I get why the NBA, NFL, and MLB have 30 or 32 teams, but, across all of them it seems there isn't enough talent to go around. Contracting to 24 would make for better games overall, but it'll never happen.

It's pretty wild only 15 guys in the world can do this job competently.

I disagree with this line of thought. Contracting from 32 to 24 would just mean you have 12 bad teams and 12 good teams rather than 16 and 16.

I suspect there are a lot more decent QBs that never catch a break. Purdy probably isn't a thing if Jimmy G and Lance both didn't get hurt last year. Geno was a joke and one of the guys we said couldn't play until he could. Goff was another guy we had on the scrap heap. If Bledsoe hadn't gotten hurt and Bill B didn't have a top defense for several years would Brady be the GOAT or just a guy who bounced around rosters for a few years?

Bill would have been the one bouncing around to different teams if Brady never was a starter.

 

[KellysHeroes]

too many teams, too much expansion... so the real answer is greed

 

[BassNBrew]

too many teams, too much expansion... so the real answer is greed

The NFL has been expanding slower than a majority of businesses o that can't be the answer.

 

[Joe Bryant]

I think it just speaks to the enormous difficulty of the job

That's it. No further discussion.

NFL shot themselves in the foot when they abandoned NFL Europe. They need some kind of minor league to develop QB's and get them experience.

I do remember being surprised when they stopped the NFL Europe. Seems like a natural thing for them.

 

[N Zone]

NY Giants QB Devito - 2 TD passes in the first half, so the 3rd stringer can play in the NFL at least as a backup coming in when needed to compete.

edit: final stats today vs Washington: Tommy DeVito 18 for 26 for 246 yards, 3 touchdowns, 138 passer rating, and the Giants win

 

[Bri]

I think it just speaks to the enormous difficulty of the job

That's it. No further discussion.

NFL shot themselves in the foot when they abandoned NFL Europe. They need some kind of minor league to develop QB's and get them experience.

I do remember being surprised when they stopped the NFL Europe. Seems like a natural thing for them.

They moved most of the teams to Germany. I think London remained.

I love the concept of WWII veterans marrying some German women and decades pass and.... they play a pretty good game of football there.

Deestroying did his 1 on 1 drills there during some of these games. There was a 6-7 WR that was wow.
Also an English HS whooped an American one.

All that culture is fun to me

 

[Bri]

DTR didn't throw a pass further than five yards.

What was the team game plan meeting like last week? What's it like to be PJ Walker and not play hearing all that went on during the meeting?

Levis had 47 yards in Qs 2 and 3 last week and 38 yards in a half this week. But he has a big arm.

 

[renesauz]

Not buying the OP premise. QB play is generally better then ....well, ever. I don't think teams invest enough time and effort into developing their BACKUPS though. Too many rely on a retread/failed starter, or just roster a couple guys who had success in college but don't spend nearly enough practice time actually working/developing them.
A lot of coaches INSIST on THEIR schemes too, regardless of the talents of their players. That's always confused me, and it certainly makes things a lot more difficult when their under-practiced, under-developed QB2 or 3 has to play.

IE; starters better then ever, backups not developed/coached properly