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Why hasn't soccer caught on in America? (2 Viewers)

NewlyRetired said:
as Ned alluded to, it won't be long until Pulisic makes the leap into the world's top 10-15 players if he continues his trajectory and stays healthy IMO.  I figure in 5 years when he turns 23, things should get real interesting.

The fact that he went from US high school player to being a major component on a Champions League team in a little over a year is still mind boggling.
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I feel like next year we should get out of the group and maybe win a game in the knockout with a lot of hype for 2022 when pulisic should be comping into his prime.

we feel like we have been so close a couple times like wondo kicking it into the upper deck from 2 yards out instead of I don't know, literally anything else.

 
bagger said:
I feel like next year we should get out of the group and maybe win a game in the knockout with a lot of hype for 2022 when pulisic should be comping into his prime.

we feel like we have been so close a couple times like wondo kicking it into the upper deck from 2 yards out instead of I don't know, literally anything else.
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:lol:  

 
They finally have a darn good formula put together for marketing MLS. I have tried to get into it, but I just can't, but I do commend their marketing efforts. It has been pretty cool to watch. . I enjoy the world cup every four years and really hope some day the US could be an actual contender. 

I used to want all sorts of rule changes, but now I just want one. I want substitutions to be allowed where players can come back in. We criticize wide receivers all the time for taking plays off. Soccer players by nature of the game have to take it easy quite regularly. Nothing against them. It is just the way it is, nobody can sprint that long continuously.  I think if they could sub, they would push harder and you would see more entertaining play.  

 
I just visited Seattle and, from my brief stay and my impression, I noted a lot more Sounders stuff than Seahawks, both marketing/sold as well as worn by people. And that Seahawks team is pretty good.

 
bagger said:
I feel like next year we should get out of the group and maybe win a game in the knockout with a lot of hype for 2022 when pulisic should be comping into his prime.
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If we wanted to create the perfect storm, it would be 2026 IMO.  

Pulisic will be in his dead prime of 27, the US will almost assuredly be hosting the World Cup and MLS will be 9 years more mature (and if that 9 years sees even a fraction of the growth the last 9 years have shown, it could be quite a league by then.).

Now imagine if all of those things line up and the US has a run to say the semi finals lead by Pulisic, and then an MLS team signs Pulisic.......

Damn, that would be fun to live through :)

 
NewlyRetired said:
If we wanted to create the perfect storm, it would be 2026 IMO.  

Pulisic will be in his dead prime of 27, the US will almost assuredly be hosting the World Cup and MLS will be 9 years more mature (and if that 9 years sees even a fraction of the growth the last 9 years have shown, it could be quite a league by then.).

Now imagine if all of those things line up and the US has a run to say the semi finals lead by Pulisic, and then an MLS team signs Pulisic.......

Damn, that would be fun to live through :)
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I can see the headline now: "USA wins World Cup. Will soccer finally catch on in America?"

 
NewlyRetired said:
many leagues around the world already do this.  FIFA as yet does not for international games.  It is more prevalent at the international level.

 It is rare to see in leagues like MLs or EPL.  Sure it happens but no more often than a basketball player faking a charge or a hockey player going down easy to get a penalty.
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Yeah diving happens in basketball and even hockey too. But there is so much more at stake in soccer if the cheating team gets awarded a spot kick or the innocent player gets a red card. The Spurs never won 1-0 in basketball after a Manu Ginobili flop or got to play 5 vs 4 for the rest of the game.

 
Short Corner said:
Comparing the attendance numbers of two leagues that play in indoor venues to a sport that play outside is disingenuous at best.
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Short Corner said:
Exactly.  The attendance from the lower bowl of an NBA game will generate more revenue than your 47k at the soccer stadium.
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Short Corner said:
It's firmly entrenched as the 8th or 9th most poular sport, I'll give it that.
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We get it... you don't like soccer. 

 
NewlyRetired said:
If we wanted to create the perfect storm, it would be 2026 IMO.  

Pulisic will be in his dead prime of 27, the US will almost assuredly be hosting the World Cup and MLS will be 9 years more mature (and if that 9 years sees even a fraction of the growth the last 9 years have shown, it could be quite a league by then.).

Now imagine if all of those things line up and the US has a run to say the semi finals lead by Pulisic, and then an MLS team signs Pulisic.......

Damn, that would be fun to live through :)
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:goodposting:

I'm an example of the "new breed" of US Soccer fan. I played a bit as a kid, but never watched much until 2006 World Cup. 2010 I was hooked. 2014 I was rabid about it and the last couple years I've grown into following the game outside the World Cup. Recently went to my first USMNT match... had a BLAST. Loved the Gold Cup. Excited for 2018 WC. Now following USMNT players overseas. 

I see a LOT of soccer jerseys/shirts these days... especially on kids, but on some adults. Yesterday I commented to my GF that I had seen 4 kids in USMNT jerseys (3 different groups) and one adult in a Man U jersey... in a span of 4-5 hours... in Bum####, Mississippi. Adults are converting but a lot of kids are growing up with the game now.... as they get older, the tide will shift even more aggressively. 

IMO Soccer will pass hockey soon (average interest, nationwide), and will set it's sights on baseball shortly thereafter. I wish we had an MLS team here... I would likely get seasons tickets. I rarely go to our NBA games... the sport bores me. 

 
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[icon] said:
:goodposting:

I'm an example of the "new breed" of US Soccer fan. I played a bit as a kid, but never watched much until 2006 World Cup. 2010 I was hooked. 2014 I was rabid about it and the last couple years I've grown into following the game outside the World Cup. Recently went to my first USMNT match... had a BLAST. Loved the Gold Cup. Excited for 2018 WC. Now following USMNT players overseas. 

I see a LOT of soccer jerseys/shirts these days... especially on kids, but on some adults. Yesterday I commented to my GF that I had seen 4 kids in USMNT jerseys (3 different groups) and one adult in a Man U jersey... in a span of 4-5 hours... in Bum####, Mississippi. Adults are converting but a lot of kids are growing up with the game now.... as they get older, the tide will shift even more aggressively. 

IMO Soccer will pass hockey soon (average interest, nationwide), and will set it's sights on baseball shortly thereafter. I wish we had an MLS team here... I would likely get seasons tickets. I rarely go to our NBA games... the sport bores me. 
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Is your definition of shortly like 20 years? 

 
2016 Total attendance for sports in the US/Canada: 305,602,681

Baseball: (MLB, minors & NCAA): 120,512,829 (39.4%)

Football (NFL, CFL, AFL & NCAA): 69,787,297 (22.8%)

Basketball (NBA & NCAA): 54,354,412 (17.8%)

Hockey (NHL, minors, junior & NCAA): 47,982,297 (15.7%)

Soccer (MLS, USL, NASL, NWSL, MISL & NCAA): 11,890,112 (3.9%)

Lacrosse (NLL & MLL): 1,075,374 (0.4%)

Note: NCAA attendance are missing for Lacrosse (can't find any data) and NCAA Baseball and Soccer numbers only reflect the top 50 schools in attendance (only data I could find). 

ETA: added USL attendance to soccer, and edited "US" to "US/Canada".

 
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parasaurolophus said:
I used to want all sorts of rule changes, but now I just want one. I want substitutions to be allowed where players can come back in. We criticize wide receivers all the time for taking plays off. Soccer players by nature of the game have to take it easy quite regularly. Nothing against them. It is just the way it is, nobody can sprint that long continuously.  I think if they could sub, they would push harder and you would see more entertaining play.  
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I would love to see hockey like substitutions on the fly 

 
[icon] said:
probably more like 5-6. 2018 Russia / 2022 Quatar will both likely draw significant growth. As stated before a 2026 Cup in America with a lot of our youth peaking could be massive. 
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What would be the metrics you are talking about? I just don't see any way it can touch baseball for a lot of years. I don't actually see it at all, but I can at least find the argument non-insane and discussion worthy. 

 
wazoo11 said:
:shrug:  I think spending an hour and 45 minutes is enough for consuming something. I can't no longer sit through a 4 hour baseball game.
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What Floppo said....  :confused:

In my town 32k showed up on weekday night for a match. FCC is a tier 2 team. 

I'm coaching youth football the number of kids is decreasing. Every year they're is a recruiting effort to field enough to fill out football teams at the grade school levels. Where do you think those kids are going? They're going to soccer & lacrosse. 

The question about why soccer isn't taking hold is about a decade late & has already been answered. 

It's here & it isn't going anywhere but up. 

 
parasaurolophus said:
What would be the metrics you are talking about? I just don't see any way it can touch baseball for a lot of years. I don't actually see it at all, but I can at least find the argument non-insane and discussion worthy. 
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Let's use the Harris Poll (one of the longest running and most well respected) where adults are asked "If you had to choose, which ONE of these sports would you say is your favorite?"

Baseball 1985: 23%
Baseball 2004: 15%
Baseball 2014: 16%

Soccer dipped to 1% in the early 90s, but has been rising steadily, hitting 6% during the last World Cup cycle. It has already caught Hockey. in popularity. 

Baseball seems to have stagnated at 15%, so let's assume it won't decline much further (not sure that's the case as it's fan base is aging). Soccer is on the rise and there are bumps in the fan base each World Cup Cycle. To be fair I said Soccer would "Set its sights on baseball", though I genuinely believe it's reasonable to assume those numbers will be much much closer by 2026, especially if the US gets the Cup, and our young talent continues to develop as it seems like it will. 

Certainly going out on a limb here, though I'm not sure it's as far out as some think. 

 
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Politician Spock said:
2016 Total attendance for sports in the US: 304,106,188

Soccer (MLS, NASL, NWSL, MISL & NCAA): 10,393,619 (3.4%)
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If those are the only soccer numbers they list from those leagues in the ( ) they are missing all the international games which are the biggest draws.  Just last week, there was one night where 275,000 attended games but would not show up on this list according to the list. and that was only one night.

For example, in 2016, if the Copa America was not included, that was 1.4 million fans who attended who might be missing

And it does not look like they even have all the leagues (again assuming the info in the ( ) is accurate), the USL is missing.

Do you know one way or another if this list does include all international games?

 
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[icon] said:
Let's use the Harris Poll where adults are asked "If you had to choose, which ONE of these sports would you say is your favorite?"

Baseball 1985: 23%
Baseball 2004: 15%
Baseball 2014: 16%

Soccer dipped to 1% in the early 90s, but has been rising steadily, hitting 6% during the last World Cup cycle. It has already caught Hockey. in popularity. 

Baseball seems to have stagnated at 15%, so let's assuming it won't decline much further (not sure that's the case as it's fan base is aging). Soccer is on the rise and experiences bumps each World Cup Cycle. To be fair I said Soccer would "Set its sights on baseball", though I genuinely believe it's reasonable to assume those numbers will be much much closer by 2026, especially if the US gets the Cup, and our young talent continues to develop as it seems like it will. 

Certainly going out on a limb here, though I'm not sure it's as far out as some think. 
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I concede that using that metric, soccer could catch baseball. I think there are a ton of people in this country that like baseball, but still put it as their 3rd favorite sport. As the foreign population increases and US soccer gets better you can definitely have that sector grow that are die hards.

If you had people rank their top 5, soccer wont be able to touch it for minimum 20 years, if ever. 

 
Politician Spock said:
2016 Total attendance for sports in the US: 304,106,188

Football (NFL, CFL, AFL & NCAA): 69,787,297 (22.9%)%)). 
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one question about this.  What is CFL?  The title is sports in US so I would think it is not the Canadian Football League but I don't recognize the acronym otherwise.  

 
NewlyRetired said:
If those are the only soccer numbers they list from those leagues in the ( ) they are missing all the international games which are the biggest draws.  Just last week, there was one night where 275,000 attended games but would not show up on this list according to the list. and that was only one night.

For example, in 2016, if the Copa America was not included, that was 1.4 million fans who attended who might be missing

And it does not look like they even have all the leagues (again assuming the info in the ( ) is accurate), the USL is missing.

Do you know one way or another if this list does include all international games?
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The data was pulled from here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_attendance_figures_at_domestic_professional_sports_leagues and from NCAA.org.

 
NewlyRetired said:
one question about this.  What is CFL?  The title is sports in US so I would think it is not the Canadian Football League but I don't recognize the acronym otherwise.  
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Canadian Football League.

Since most US leagues, including MLS, have teams in Canada, I did not exclude Canadian attendance of a sport, as I would have to manually remove attendance of each Canadian team from each sport, which was more than a daunting task. Much easier to just include Canadian teams as part of the data, which made it unfair to exclude exclusively Canadian leagues from the sports total stats. If however you wish to remove it, I believe CFL was around 2,000,000. Doesn't really change the stats for football that much. 

 
Politician Spock said:
Canadian Football League.

Since most US leagues, including MLS, have teams in Canada, I did not exclude Canadian attendance of a sport, as I would have to manually remove attendance of each Canadian team from each sport, which was more than a daunting task. Much easier to just include Canadian teams as part of the data, which made it unfair to exclude exclusively Canadian leagues from the sports total stats. If however you wish to remove it, I believe CFL was around 2,000,000. Doesn't really change the stats for football that much. 
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sounds good.

so you probably want to edit the title you put on that post to reflect that it is not "Sports in the US" but "Sports Leagues in the US and Canada" to be more accurate.  As mentioned soccer draws a lot more fans than that list indicates as soccer is the sports that has the most international matches.

If you want a more complete list for soccer leagues, you should add in the USL.  In 2016 they drew 1.496 million fans. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2016_USL_season 

 
NewlyRetired said:
sounds good.

so you probably want to edit the title you put on that post to reflect that it is not "Sports in the US" but "Sports Leagues in the US and Canada" to be more accurate.  As mentioned soccer draws a lot more fans than that list indicates as soccer is the sports that has the most international matches.

If you want a more complete list for soccer leagues, you should add in the USL.  In 2016 they drew 1.496 million fans. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2016_USL_season 
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I agree that the USL attendance should be added. Not sure why whoever maintains the wiki page I used left them out. 

As for your other request... no. The reason being is attendance figures for Olympics and other such international competitions would have to be added to the other sports too. Soccer isn't special. 

 
Politician Spock said:
I agree that the USL attendance should be added. Not sure why whoever maintains the wiki page I used left them out. 

As for your other request... no. The reason being is attendance figures for Olympics and other such international competitions would have to be added to the other sports too. Soccer isn't special. 
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ok.  I wasn't aware that in 2016 in the US that there were significant attendances in the US for Olympic events in baseball and other sports.  

It is your list do as you want.  I was more pointing out for others reading that the soccer data is massively incomplete.  I wasn't asking you to add the data as that would be a ton of work, I was just suggesting the title change to reflect that is leagues you are tracking not the sport as a whole, which you seem to agree with.....

 
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NewlyRetired said:
ok.  I wasn't aware that in 2016 in the US that there were significant attendances in the US for Olympic events in baseball and other sports.  

It is your list do as you want.  I was more pointing out for others reading that the soccer data is massively incomplete.
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The Little League World Series (an international competition) had 467,964 in attendance in 2015, which is data not included in the stats. Again, soccer isn't special. 

 
Politician Spock said:
The Little League World Series (an international competition) had 467,964 in attendance in 2015, which is data not included in the stats. Again, soccer isn't special. 
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sure, but as I said, these numbers are in the noise compared to soccer.   No need to discuss this anymore, the point has been made enough :) . 

 
Politician Spock said:
I included NCAA (amateur) attendance in my data as well. 
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I saw that and was really just yanking your chain a bit.  I don't think including numbers for watching 12 year old players makes any sense in the discussion.  Although you didn't include the World Baseball Classic, which had more attendees than LLWS anyways, so your point remains the same.

 
Attendance is a poor metric. No one will ever match baseball because there are 162 games per team per year. Football and Basketball are unquestionably #1 and #2 right now, yet both are soundly behind baseball in attendance.

TV ratings might be a better indicator of popularity. Find any top 50 or top 100 list for the most watched games in a given year, and the first 20-25 entries are almost exclusively NFL/CFB games. Then the NBA playoff games start to make the list, then a smattering of big soccer games. 

You won't typically find a baseball or hockey game in the top 50

 
NewlyRetired said:
sure, but as I said, these numbers are in the noise compared to soccer.   No need to discuss this anymore, the point has been made enough :) . 
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I agree with the bolded. And it's because soccer in the US/Canada is minor leagues in regards to soccer worldwide. When non-US/Canada teams come to play here, then US fans get to see real major league soccer, so they flock to those games. 

If soccer is ever really going to take off in the US, the European Leagues need to place expansion teams in the US. The MLS teams with much higher attendance numbers than the rest are good candidate cities for their expansion. Until then, the international competitions are going to be big draws because US fans rarely get to see the best soccer teams in the world. 

 
encaitar said:
I saw that and was really just yanking your chain a bit.  I don't think including numbers for watching 12 year old players makes any sense in the discussion.  Although you didn't include the World Baseball Classic, which had more attendees than LLWS anyways, so your point remains the same.
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Yep. I just used the most readily available data I could find. If someone wants to invest time researching all of those non-league events for every sport, and add them to my list, be my guest. But don't ask me to do it. 

 
Politician Spock said:
I agree with the bolded. And it's because soccer in the US/Canada is minor leagues in regards to soccer worldwide. When non-US/Canada teams come to play here, then US fans get to see real major league soccer, so they flock to those games. 

If soccer is ever really going to take off in the US, the European Leagues need to place expansion teams in the US. The MLS teams with much higher attendance numbers than the rest are good candidate cities for their expansion. Until then, the international competitions are going to be big draws because US fans rarely get to see the best soccer teams in the world. 
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That's not how those leagues work.

 
Politician Spock said:
I agree with the bolded. And it's because soccer in the US/Canada is minor leagues in regards to soccer worldwide. When non-US/Canada teams come to play here, then US fans get to see real major league soccer, so they flock to those games. 

If soccer is ever really going to take off in the US, the European Leagues need to place expansion teams in the US. The MLS teams with much higher attendance numbers than the rest are good candidate cities for their expansion. Until then, the international competitions are going to be big draws because US fans rarely get to see the best soccer teams in the world. 
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some of what you say is true (outside of expansion, that makes no sense based on how soccer is run in Europe).  But it is worth noting that the highest drawing team consistently in the US is far far from a worlds best team.

 
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