Fantasy Football - Footballguys Forums
Welcome to Our Forums. Once you've registered and logged in, you're primed to talk football, among other topics, with the sharpest and most experienced fantasy players on the internet.
WR Antonio Brown, FA (4 Viewers)
- Thread starter Casting Couch
- Start date
Max Power
Footballguy
I'm out of the loop on this one. He doesn't strike me as the type to let a single player value themselves over the team, but that could have been years of coach speak from the booth. I really don't know.
Capella
Footballguy
lol pleeeeeeenty of people have left Tampa sports teams in search of more money. Doesn’t bother me at all (except for the cheap ownership).
ghostguy123
Footballguy
Wouldn't all the dead cap space this stuff creates actually lead to less money being paid out to players overall?
Hankmoody
Footballguy
But that's not really relevant. Roethlisberger isn't in Oakland, Carr is. And as long as Carr's running it well AB is going to eat.
rockaction
Footballguy
It's relevant because Roethlisberger changed a lot of the plays at the line and improvised a lot, meaning that we don't know how AB did in a true get-it-out-of-your-hands WCO. I watched a lot of that and followed the Ben/Haley/AB saga as I've drafted both AB and Ben and Bell quite a bit over the past four or five years (there's a reason I have two titles in five years plus two finals appearances.)
So, yes, actually very relevant. AB feasted under Haley, but was it a true WCO in its nuts and bolts?
irish eyes
Footballguy
Carr throwing to him instead of Ben...lolololol. I would express what I would like to see happen to him for next season but I would certainly be banned.
irish eyes
Footballguy
Hankmoody
Footballguy
Are you really bragging about your fantasy prowess as though that makes one iota of difference to me? C'mon man.
And you are reinforcing my point - he's never played in a "true get-it-out-of-your-hands WCO". It's entirely possible Ben's propensity to hold the ball actually cost AB targets when it should have been out fast to him. No one knows except perhaps Haley. That might even be what caused the friction between them - Haley wanting it run one way and Ben doing his thing. So no, how Ben ran a different WCO under a different coach isn't really relevant.
rockaction
Footballguy
No, just as proof that I watched them. And yes, what's wrong with a little chest thumping over picks gone right? If you're that much of a stickler, Friday nights with you must be...
well...whatever.
Regardless, you said it wasn't relevant what Roethlisberger did in the WCO and now you're saying it could have hindered Brown.
So...you know. According to M-W:
Relevance - relation to the matter at hand
So yes, very relevant, either way.
There are also doctrinal definitions. Here's an example of relevance as I learned it taking Federal Rules of Evidence in school.
https://www.law.cornell.edu/rules/fre/rule_401
Last edited by a moderator:
Capella
Footballguy
rockaction
Footballguy
I would hope the CBA contains more equitable provisions rather than the sort of circumventing that we see going on. I think it'd be nicer to see higher caps, more player freedom of movement, etc.
I don't like how AB went about it or what it means for the game. It had a lousy look to it.
irish eyes
Footballguy
I'm not pro anyone. The trash bag had 3 years left on his deal. Dont like it retire. And I dont want to hear how how teams can cut players whenever they want. It was agreed upon.
Milkman
Footballguy
It was also agreed upon by AB and Mr. Rooney that the trade would occur. Why do you have a problem with 1 agreement, but not the other?
Capella
Footballguy
Capella
Footballguy
Owners/management ruthlessly cut players every day. Stop feeling bad for them. It’s not a lousy look, AB just turned the tables on them.
Sheesh some of you people must crave being told what to do.
irish eyes
Footballguy
Okay I guess I need to spell it out. Steelers should have never taken that crappy deal. Tell him if we dont get a great deal, you're not going anywhere. If you dont like it, too bad. But they caved and look weak.Why would be retire? He literally just got what he wanted.
irish eyes
Footballguy
Sheesh, some of you really dont understand what a contract and collective bargaining agreement are.
Not “look weak,” they are weak. They’ve done a poor job over the last several years with players & coaches.
Weren’t you pissed and talking all kinds of $#%t on Bell because he did exactly what the CBA allows him to do: refuse to sign the tag & force Pitt to keep the tag amount unused on their cap? I’m pretty sure you said the same kind of things about Bell last year, who was doing exactly what players & owners agreed to, as you are saying about AB now. It appears like you want the CBA followed to the letter, except when a player does that and it doesn’t benefit your favorite team?
Last edited by a moderator:
irish eyes
Footballguy
Yes I said a bunch of stuff about bell, mostly how he was dummy for pi@@ing away 14 million. Never said anything about him not having the right to do it. Nice try though.
Capella
Footballguy
Capella
Footballguy
Elevencents
Footballguy
What was the deal with Big Ben? They just didn’t get along or what?
ghostguy123
Footballguy
Grigs Allmoon
Footballguy
I don't get it... It's not ruthless. It's part of the business, and well within the rules - the rules both sides negotiated.
I really can't wrap my mind around the sentiments of the vocal minority in this thread that are applauding AB for all of this. He signed a contract, and basically reneged on it. Due to that the Steelers organization took a hard L. I feel bad for that organization and it's fans.
If he thought he was in a bad situation in his current state he should have negotiated a better contract a couple years ago with more outs, options, etc. That's on him and his agent, not the Steelers.
I can't either but maybe for different reasons. I'm all for players getting paid but when people applaud players pulling stunts like this, players running the league, rooting for guaranteed contracts you are basically rooting for the current NBA structure and if you think that's good for the NFL game you either are unable or have not thought this all the way through.
Bronco Billy
Footballguy
Because I’ve seen enough of the NBA and MLB. Players are concerned about what benefits them personally. There’s nothing wrong with that, but it often is contrary to the long term health of the organization and the league. It’s the league that provides the opportunity for the player, not the other way around.
bostonfred
Footballguy
That's a really anti labor view
The league wouldn't exist without players, either. You're right that the league would go on without any one individual player, but that's exactly why the players collectively bargain.
The failure of the league to properly address the concerns of its players is exactly why they have to do things like hold out or demand trades. The owners could snap their fingers and make those things go away but they don't, specifically because the current rules are bad for top players and that's good for the owners.
Protecting those rules favors management, because instead of negotiating for more cap money or more money from jersey sales, they negotiate for things that benefit one player over another like changes to the franchise tag.
Every time time the players fight for something besides revenue they give some kind of concession to the owners, and the owners have a much longer view than the players because the players have such short careers.
And here we are, talking about the nfl in the off season on a site dedicated to the league debating the nuances of a single player acquisition. The league has almost zero interest in fixing the problems you're complaining about. Controversy is great for them.
If you're upset that this is how players have to act to get more money - but owners can get their money back by cutting a player and their non guaranteed contract - point the blame at the owners. I believe the kids used to say, don't hate the player, hate the game, but i don't know if they say that anymore because i'm past my prime.
Milkman
Footballguy
To a certain extent yes. Not going to argue if the Steelers are worse than other teams. The point is the players are kind of backed into a corner.....they are going try to get what they think is theirs anyway they can. I don't fault them and think they should.
Last edited by a moderator:
Hankmoody
Footballguy
This is almost entirely backward. The top players get this because they are in the vast minority and the NFLPA's negotiating spends much more of their equity on things that will benefit "most" of the players. It's just like the drug policy - they aren't going to advocate for the half-dozen guys that get busted at the expense of the majority.
No one is "to blame". It's a $12 BILLION dollar a year business and the are all just trying to maximize their own slice of it. It's no different than what you or I do when we decide to go look for another job or what a Wendy's fry-dipper does when they go apply at BK for o-ring rolling gig and what the management teams of all involved business respond with. NFL guys just have more zero's in their equations.
Bronco Billy
Footballguy
No it’s not. It’s an anti top 0.1% pampered jackwad who happily takes a massive signing bonus and inks a long term contract and then looks around after a year or two and decides that the contract he gladly and willfully signed just wasn’t good enough for right now and acts so detrimentally that the team has no choice but to rid themselves of him. And while this jackwad gets handsomely rewarded for his incredibly selfish bad behavior, the team, his teammates, and the fans get shafted.
If you’re so pro labor then why aren’t you supporting the rest of his former team who took it right in the nuts just like the franchise and its fans did while he was acting so poorly and then skipping away merrily with his fat new contract - which will negatively affect some of his new teammates from cashing in on a better deal when their wait their turn and play out their contract? You’re not pro labor. You’re pro top 0.1% jackwad. That must be a comfortable spot to be.
Milkman
Footballguy
The top 0.1% is still underpaid along with the rest of the NFL. The best way to fix this is for the players to negotiate for a higher percentage of revenue. This would benefit the player making the vet minimum as much as the top earners.
Behavior like Brown's or Bell's isn't going to stop until they are treated better. They know their being unfairly exploited. Hopefully other teams have taken notice how saving a few bucks completely blew up in the greedy Steelers face.
Behavior like Brown's or Bell's isn't going to stop until they are treated better. They know their being unfairly exploited. Hopefully other teams have taken notice how saving a few bucks completely blew up in the greedy Steelers face.
habsfan
Footballguy
In traditional football terms, AB is an anti-hero. I think deep down some people want (or even expect) him to be Larry Fitzgerald. Clearly he's not. He doesn't appear to attach any value to the non-statistical side of his football legacy. I doubt this is the catalyst that sends the league spiralling into chaos but it does make me wonder - what if every star started conducting their business like this?
Godsbrother
Footballguy
We will likely never know but I think issues with Ben and Tomlin were largely orchestrated by AB and Rosenhaus as a means to get out of his contract with the Steelers which had no more guaranteed money. They knew the Steelers weren't going to renegotiate a contract with 3 years left and no one would be giving him $30 million guaranteed when that contract expired.
The only way to get one more big payoff was to either be released or be traded and that is exactly what happened. I understand it is a business and I don't fault him for getting as much money as you can but it was a really crappy way to do it.
Last edited by a moderator:
Bojang0301
Omar4Heisman
https://twitter.com/paulzeise/status/1104803881215766529?s=21
“The Steelers made Pouncey the highest paid center, AB the highest paid receiver, paid Shazer for last season, offered to make Bell by far the highest paid RB are about to pay Ben a boatload but yeah, let’s keep the narrative that they don’t treat their players fairly going. GTFOH”
Article of SEVERAL occasions where Ben took blame despite that narrative from punk #####es across the internet: https://steelersdepot.com/2019/02/all-the-times-ben-roethlisberger-took-the-blame/
“The Steelers made Pouncey the highest paid center, AB the highest paid receiver, paid Shazer for last season, offered to make Bell by far the highest paid RB are about to pay Ben a boatload but yeah, let’s keep the narrative that they don’t treat their players fairly going. GTFOH”
Article of SEVERAL occasions where Ben took blame despite that narrative from punk #####es across the internet: https://steelersdepot.com/2019/02/all-the-times-ben-roethlisberger-took-the-blame/
steelers1080
Footballguy
Where would you draft AB right now in a redraft league? Half-ppr, I probably would take him at the end of round 2, early round 3, but I wouldn't feel good about it. I think his floor is low WR2 this year.
Bronco Billy
Footballguy
That’s laughable. The players already get a disproportionate percentage of gross revenues when compared to a standard business model for employee compensation. The reason people like you feel this way is because the NFL as a whole generates such a huge amount of revenues - which btw benefits the players with their compensation tied to the percentage.
Damn. I wish someone would exploit me to the tune of $15M per year.
.
Last edited by a moderator:
Bojang0301
Omar4Heisman
Oh well apparently Ben only went to his house 3 times so they’re not friends. Enjoy hanging out with Derek Carr who has had stories rumored through the grapevine of his OL bailing on him vice a guy like Pouncey saying he’ll play until Ben doesn’t. Ben isn’t immune to criticism for this past year. I made a comment I thought it was BS when he threw Washington under the bus and he needs to not do that BS this season but the guy has won two rings... he’s hardly “the problem” and if someone says he is they’re an idiot. Call him a piece of #### human, call his personality derelict... whatever, but to suggest it’s his play? C’mon... he had his best statistical season last year even if his deep ball efficiency is weakening.
Bojang0301
Omar4Heisman
It’s just like pointing to the NBA and MLB. I think there is a point to be made about guaranteed contracts but the money is never going to be what those leagues have. It’s 14 man and 25 man rosters vs 53 man rosters (60 if you want to count practice squad).
brewer
Footballguy
In what I think was my favorite part of the ESPN interview at his mansion..... Brown opines that he and Ben aren't friends because they have only been to each other's homes a few times. About 10 minutes later he mentions that Coach Tomlin invited him to his house to watch a game, but essentially, Brown is a busy man and doesn't have time for that.
bostonfred
Footballguy
This is exactly how the owners want you to see it. You're referring to the players as the .1%, not the owners.
The truth is that both sides have negotiated for a long time, and the current rules represent the interests of both parties. Players want money, owners want the most talented players to play, and they've agreed on basic contract terms that vary from player to player and rules for how money is distributed.
One of those rules is how each side can end a contract they no longer like, and how their counterparts protect themselves.
Owners can end it by cutting the player at any time, and players can protect themselves by getting guaranteed money.
Players can't end their contracts. They can only hold out or demand trades.
That's not a level playing field. And owner friendly options like the franchise tag give the owners lots of options to handle contracts. But when players go to collective bargaining they have to choose which points to bargain for, and generally that will favor the owners because the players generally choose money over more favorable rules.
Given the rules, that means a player and team will sometimes agree on a contract knowing that a holdout is likely.
For example, if a team and player agree on a deal for 2 years, 20 million, the team might offer 5 years, 23 million with 10 million guaranteed the first year and 3 years at 1 million instead. The player is happy to get guaranteed money and always prefers to get money up front instead of waiting, and the team gets to spread the cap hit out over 5 years instead of 2.
In that example, both sides know the deal will be bad in year 3, because this isn't a minimum value player. So while the player might agree to the deal, both sides would be well aware a holdout was coming in year 3.
They could go to the opposite end of the spectrum and make year 3 a 100 million dollar salary. But both sides would know that the team intended to cut the player.
So they usually agree on something in the middle. 2 years, 20 million, with 8 million in year 3, 7 in year 4 and 5 in year 5. That makes a lot of sense for a veteran getting close to the age of decline - by the time he reaches year 3 he might have a hard time getting 1 year for 8 million or 3 years for 20, so he won't hold out unless he over performs, and the team won't cut him unless he under performs. Both sides understand going in that the player might hold out or the team might cur him.
That's exactly what happened with brown. The team front loaded his contract with two big years, including a signing bonus and salary that got converted to guaranteed money for cap purposes. But by year 3, brown was over performing the amount that was left in his contract. Both teams knew going in that that's a formula for a player to hold out. And the steelers invested early picks in wide receivers in both years leading up to it. This wasn't a surprise.
The first difference here is that the steelers (like most teams) generally don't like to renegotiate these deals. They feel like it hurts their leverage in future deals, because every player feels like they've over performed. That's reasonable, but players don't like it.
So they should have expected an ugly holdout, and their opportunity to avoid it was earlier in the year when they debated contact details.
The second difference is that brown clearly felt like there were other problems in Pittsburgh. I don't know what they were. He mentioned ben, he might have had a bad taste in how mouth after the bell stuff, maybe he felt like the team had committed to renegotiating but drafted early round receivers the next two years to hurt his leverage. Maybe it's other stuff. I don't know or care really. That stuff changed the way he handled the expected holdout/trade demand, but it's not the reason for it.
So when i take a pro labor stance here, it's because I don't have any problem with players choosing their only remedy to get a pay raise. The owners could change the rules in an instant if they wanted the players to have a different way to remedy a contract they've outperformed, but they don't want to.
And that's partially because guys like you support them and act like the players are the bad guys.
bostonfred
Footballguy
The players are the product. The owners need on field talent, and the one time they tried to prove otherwise by using replacement players was a debacle.
Do the players get a bigger percentage of revenues than other entertainers? Do you think they should get paid in line with factory workers, or taylor swift? Because you're basically arguing that the record labels and Ticketmaster deserve more money.
Bronco Billy
Footballguy
What? The games (and broadcasts) and merchandise are the products. The players are contract employees. Where do you get this stuff from? No wonder this discussion goes where it does.
bostonfred
Footballguy
I'd rather believe you don't believe this but feel free to explain how the owners would make billions with the nfl without putting the best players on the field. I'd imagine some people would tune in to watch Arthur Blank clothesline Kroenke, but that's not a sustainable business model.
Milkman
Footballguy
Yeah the other business models you're comparing to the NFL are close to paying in cheeseburgers instead of dollars. That's like comparing the way Saddam treated his people and saying saying see Kim Jong-un isn't that bad. Almost everybody working for corporate America deserves a raise.
Last edited by a moderator:
Capella
Footballguy
If you were one of the 3 best in the world at what you do then maybe you would be worth that. But you’re not. So you shouldn’t compare yourself to somebody who is.
Also
at comparing the nfl to any kind of standard business business model for employee comp. 
