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YOU ARE ABOUT TO BE SUSPENDED! (1 Viewer)

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dkp993 said:
If so, am I’m glad you feel that way, then that’s your case for keeping it open (and thus then dealing with the headaches that come with it).  Honestly it’s really only 3 realistic options.  
 

1. take the patience approach MT says above and deal with the detritus

2. rule with an iron boot and make some tough weeding out decisions and deal with the detritus.  

3 shut it down and called it a failed experiment, and deal with the detritus.  
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Word of the day toilet paper in your stocking this year? ;)  

 
John Maddens Lunchbox said:
I think there are many conservatives/republicans who voted for W twice, McCain and Romney on this forum  who do not support Trump and some who did. The ones who do not support Trump have been quite vocal about it as well. 

We have not heard many who have voted for Trump, but held their nose

We have not heard many who have voted for Trump, but did so with pride, but are now disgusted

We have not heard many who have voted for Trump, did so with pride and are more enthusiastic than ever

We have also not heard many who were D or unaffiliated, but now are firmly in Trumps corner.

instead we get a lot who claimed to have never voted for Trump, but never question or challenge any of the admins decisions. 

I would love to see conservative and/or Trump voters that can articulate an argument, instead we get mainly cheerleading or derision of the opposite side. There are a few exceptions. These posters should deserve praise, instead there are some on the left who argue poorly with them.
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Why did you use 'claimed' in that one instance?  Why can't this forum accept that people who said they didn't vote for Trump?   

 
squistion said:
Because IMO they defend almost everything he says or does.
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Again, I'll present myself as an example of a Gary Johnson voter that was ridiculed early on. I live in a Red state. It didn't matter who I voted for, Trump was taking this state. I didn't like either choice. Odds are, I'm not going to like the two choices in the future. I felt a Johnson vote may help give me, or my kids, more choices in the future. 

I've not defended everything he did. I did give him an opportunity to succeed or fail on his own merit. After 3 years, I've now seen enough to determine that he's done some good things, and some bad things. Many of the posters that ridiculed me, never gave him a chance. They made their determination in Jan of 2017. Which is odd because he hadn't done anything yet.  :shrug:

 
KCitons said:
Again, I'll present myself as an example of a Gary Johnson voter that was ridiculed early on. I live in a Red state. It didn't matter who I voted for, Trump was taking this state. I didn't like either choice. Odds are, I'm not going to like the two choices in the future. I felt a Johnson vote may help give me, or my kids, more choices in the future. 

I've not defended everything he did. I did give him an opportunity to succeed or fail on his own merit. After 3 years, I've now seen enough to determine that he's done some good things, and some bad things. Many of the posters that ridiculed me, never gave him a chance. They made their determination in Jan of 2017. Which is odd because he hadn't done anything yet.  :shrug:
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"Russia, if you're listening..."

 
squistion said:
Because IMO they defend almost everything he says or does.
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This is a total falsehood.  First, you can't even provide a list of Trump voters, Gary Johnson voters, or anything else.  If you can, please link it for the rest of us.  Second, you really need to clarify the meaning of defend.

Yet another reason discussions go downhill quickly.  Too many guys seem to know more about other posters than the posters themselves.  

 
Ramblin Wreck said:
This is a total falsehood.  First, you can't even provide a list of Trump voters, Gary Johnson voters, or anything else.  If you can, please link it for the rest of us.  Second, you really need to clarify the meaning of defend.

Yet another reason discussions go downhill quickly.  Too many guys seem to know more about other posters than the posters themselves.  
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Sorry, but that is my perception, which may or may not be accurate.  :shrug:

 
BassNBrew said:
The Gary Johnson voters are tarred and feathered as bad as the Trump voters and blamed for any of Trumps horrible policies or statements.  

Regarding us speaking up, once you and several others on the left identify that water is wet, why do we need to say water is wet?
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Yep, and more than a few people have their running joke now where they mock Gary Johnson voters by putting it in quotes, or sarcastically calling them Johnson voters, or other methods of basically calling them liars.  Not sure how mocking other posters and basically calling them liars is supposed to lead to productive discussion, but I doubt that is their intended goal. 

 
Ramblin Wreck said:
This is a total falsehood.  First, you can't even provide a list of Trump voters, Gary Johnson voters, or anything else.  If you can, please link it for the rest of us.  Second, you really need to clarify the meaning of defend.

Yet another reason discussions go downhill quickly.  Too many guys seem to know more about other posters than the posters themselves.  
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Very  :goodposting:

 
squistion said:
Sorry, but that is my perception, which may or may not be accurate.  :shrug:
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Let's narrow this down to one poster.... me.   Prove who I voted for.  Link it or do what you have to do to prove it.  I can prove it straight from the horses mouth.  For someone that demands links and accuracy and all that good stuff from other posters, you should have no problem with demanding accuracy from yourself.  Right?

 
Joe Bryant said:
Maurile wrote:

I think it's this but with a tweak. I think it's more: 2. There are a number of reasonable Trump supporters Republicans / Conservatives who wouldn’t mind having grown-up conversations about politics, but this forum makes it impossible because of all the left-wing trolls they get painted as MAGA Rally Guy that can't wait to go torture people at the border. So the reasonable Trump supporters Republicans / Conservatives have given up even trying to have grown-up conversations with us.

I know that's exactly why my Republican / Conservative friends don't post here. 

I get it. I would never try to argue for enforcing border law stuff here as it just wouldn't be worth the ugliness. 

I don't know the answer.  But I know for a fact that's why some Republicans / Conservatives don't post here. And I fully agree with them. 
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From the perspective of a "conservative" pob this board, i have to use quotation marks around the word because doesn't mean what it used to. In the view od trump supporters there is no room for descent so if you arent on board with trump you're now a "liberal"  

A perfect illustration is immigration reform. 

 
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Ghost Rider said:
That has nothing to do with my point. 

Well, Trump does act like an idiotic bully, but it seems like the powers-that-be want us to be better than one-line quips that are likely posted to get reactions from those who disagree with it. 
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What was your point? You lost me.

 
Joe Bryant said:
Easy for you to say. You're not getting the "F that guy" messages.
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I am sorry for the ugliness being visited upon you.  You deserve better.  Some are as yet so undeveloped they know not what they do.  Myself, I would not ask you to endure any more.  You have made extreme efforts.  It has not gone unnoticed nor unappreciated.  Forget having a nice season, have a great life.

 
I hope the sum total of my existence involves having brought more joy than pain, more compassion than vitriol, enlightenment as opposed to darkness, though I know I am a creature of both light and dark.  I hope here I have been more positive than negative.  I hope that others strive for this as well though I lament that this is perhaps not so.  For those who find themselves on  crusade, who in that crusade believe that they have license, as crusaders, to ignore collateral damage, please take a few moments to rethink your righteousness.  It may be that you see it as wrongeousness after self reflection.

 
I feel like I need to impart the same advice that I give to my 4 year old who has become a bit of a tattletale lately - you don't  need to worry about what other people are doing; just make sure you are doing the right thing. 

 
jon_mx said:
Why did you use 'claimed' in that one instance?  Why can't this forum accept that people who said they didn't vote for Trump?   
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Maybe they didn't, but if it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, its seems more likely they voted for a Donald.

 
Joe Bryant said:
Maurile wrote:

I think it's this but with a tweak. I think it's more: 2. There are a number of reasonable Trump supporters Republicans / Conservatives who wouldn’t mind having grown-up conversations about politics, but this forum makes it impossible because of all the left-wing trolls they get painted as MAGA Rally Guy that can't wait to go torture people at the border. So the reasonable Trump supporters Republicans / Conservatives have given up even trying to have grown-up conversations with us.

I know that's exactly why my Republican / Conservative friends don't post here. 

I get it. I would never try to argue for enforcing border law stuff here as it just wouldn't be worth the ugliness. 

I don't know the answer.  But I know for a fact that's why some Republicans / Conservatives don't post here. And I fully agree with them. 
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@Joe Bryant As someone who is very pro-immigrant, including pro-undocumented immigrant (I haven’t exactly hid my feelings on this) let me tell you how some of these discussions have gone in the past, from my viewpoint: 

There will be a few conservatives who post who strongly disagree with my POV but do so reasonably and intelligently exactly the way you described. I always try to have a discussion with them and when I do, it is usually both respectful and informative. But what typically happens is that these reasonable conservative types are swamped by those who imitate our President and offer what I regard as irrational and bigoted viewpoints on this issue. I have tried to ignore these latter types because discussion does no good with them and if I call them out for what they are, the more reasonable types feel like I am calling them out as well, even though that was never my purpose. Unfortunately the Trump types have in recent years come to dominate conservative opinion on this particular issue and the more reasonable conservatives are more and more silent. 

And so this is where we disagree again. You claim that reasonable conservatives are afraid to post on this issue because they don’t want to be called bigots. I’m quite sure many have told you this and that they themselves believe it. But I believe the real source of the problem here are the Trump types who do express bigotry and ignorance on this issue on a regular basis and swamp all reasonable discussion from either side. 

 
squistion said:
Because IMO they defend almost everything he says or does.
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Here is a list of things I am critical of Trump on and certainly do not defend.

1.  His tax cut was unnecessary and targeted the wealthy too much.

2.  He spends too much and the budget is out of control

3.  His immigration policy is way too restrictive.

4.  His rhetoric is bigoted

5.  Much of his wealth is based upon bribing politcians to gain favorable zoning

6.  His school was a RIP off

7.  His foreign policy is a disaster.  He runs his mouth and has zero tact.

8.  His trade negotiations are wreckless

9.  He is a habitual liar

10.  His ego is too big and he does not listen to anyone.

11.  I think he is corrupt and one of the worst presidents ever.

So your characterization is demonstrably one big lie, and based on that clear lie you just make huge assumptions and accuse other posters lying.  How is that even remotely OK?  That is the kind of stuff that drives people away..  

 
squistion said:
Sorry, but that is my perception, which may or may not be accurate.  :shrug:
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That is not an excuse.  People have lots of perceptions of you, but stating them would not be considered excellent.  The worst thing people do is make debate discussions personal.  You can't just accuse people of lying or project evil motives because you disagree with them.  That is usually the result of the poster who does not want to concede a point and/or is just too lazy to articulate a respectful and intelligent response.  

 
This is really complicated stuff, and I think the country is going through it as a whole, as are major journalism sites. There have been some excellent posts in here. Anyone who is interested in this moment of history - involving 1. a possible realignment and 2. two different Watergates - could observe this place and see and understand what is going on pretty well. I think it really says it all in terms of what is going on in this country.

 
So here's an example of a well-established member passing along a widely-debunked, out-of-context video clip in an effort to make a particular presidential candidate look bad.  (The Twitter thread that the poster links to serves as a really good illustration of what bad faith argumentation looks like when you really take it to an extreme).  On one hand, I want to follow MT's advice and just completely ignore it because there's no point in engaging with this sort of thing.  On the other hand, it is inevitable that stuff like this is going to result in this forum being semi-unreadable for the next 11 or so months.  

I agree that it's not feasible for the moderation team to be fact checkers and adjudicate a bunch of posts on a one-by-one basis, and I also agree that it's sometimes hard to tell when somebody is trolling as opposed to being honestly out to lunch on a particular topic.  But sometimes this sort of thing is pretty easy.  

 
timschochet said:
How does this link contradict his statement? It seems to verify it. 
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Seems like others have missed my point as well. It’s not what you say, but how you say it, and squis’ one-line retort about Russia comes off more about being snarky than trying refute something, and my opinion is that those types of replies are probably not intended to be excellent towards others, which is why I made the quip about how posts like that probably do not help the cause when it comes to Joe deciding what to do. It’s not about being right or wrong, although that’s clearly important to many people; it’s about being excellent towards one another, and posts like that are a good example of how far this subforum has fallen. 

 
Ghost Rider said:
Seems like others have missed my point as well. It’s not what you say, but how you say it, and squis’ one-line retort about Russia comes off more about being snarky than trying refute something, and my opinion is that those types of replies are probably not intended to be excellent towards others, which is why I made the quip about how posts like that probably do not help the cause when it comes to Joe deciding what to do. It’s not about being right or wrong, although that’s clearly important to many people; it’s about being excellent towards one another, and posts like that are a good example of how far this subforum has fallen. 
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Fallen?  I think there are less posts like that.  But clearly they have not disappeared.  

 
Ghost Rider said:
Seems like others have missed my point as well. It’s not what you say, but how you say it, and squis’ one-line retort about Russia comes off more about being snarky than trying refute something, and my opinion is that those types of replies are probably not intended to be excellent towards others, which is why I made the quip about how posts like that probably do not help the cause when it comes to Joe deciding what to do. It’s not about being right or wrong, although that’s clearly important to many people; it’s about being excellent towards one another, and posts like that are a good example of how far this subforum has fallen. 
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@squistion also failed to take the entirety of my post into account with his response. This happens quite a bit around here. We all do it. We pick one word, one sentence, or even a mispelling of a word to concentrate on. 

Even though I didn't vote for Trump, I was giving him a chance. Others were not. Squistion's comment of "Russia are you listening" is confirmation that I was correct. 

 
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timschochet said:
@Maurile Tremblay, in your long post, most of which was excellent, you wrote: 

because of all the left wing trolls. 

What I’m about to write may not be considered to be very helpful by some. Nonetheless, I absolutely believe it to be true: there are only a handful of left wing trolls in this politics forum. They can be loud and prevalent at times but they are a tiny minority. The vast majority of those who troll here are pro-Trump or right wing. 
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Try not to view it as if the left wing trolls are exclusively trolls all the time.

You dont see it because you agree with the sentiment. 

A perfect example of left wing trolling that you have participated in and likely dont even notice when other people do it is to drop in on a thread about topic xyz and ask why a poster isnt posting in Trump thread version abc. Now this has been greatly minimized with the focus on moderation, but I am sure you never saw this as trolling. How many times do you think you did this in the Kaepernick thread?

Another version of this is dropping into a specific topic and posting a trump whataboutism. 

There is no legitimate purpose for dropping into a specific topic and making completely off topic comments like that. None. It is trolling. 

And i am not saying it never happens the other direction or that I have never done so myself.

 
IvanKaramazov said:
So here's an example of a well-established member passing along a widely-debunked, out-of-context video clip in an effort to make a particular presidential candidate look bad.  (The Twitter thread that the poster links to serves as a really good illustration of what bad faith argumentation looks like when you really take it to an extreme).  On one hand, I want to follow MT's advice and just completely ignore it because there's no point in engaging with this sort of thing.  On the other hand, it is inevitable that stuff like this is going to result in this forum being semi-unreadable for the next 11 or so months.  

I agree that it's not feasible for the moderation team to be fact checkers and adjudicate a bunch of posts on a one-by-one basis, and I also agree that it's sometimes hard to tell when somebody is trolling as opposed to being honestly out to lunch on a particular topic.  But sometimes this sort of thing is pretty easy.  
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Yeah, the ignore function helps but results in a lot of things not getting debunked like they should.  

 
Ditkaless Wonders said:
I am sorry for the ugliness being visited upon you.  You deserve better.  Some are as yet so undeveloped they know not what they do.  Myself, I would not ask you to endure any more.  You have made extreme efforts.  It has not gone unnoticed nor unappreciated.  Forget having a nice season, have a great life.
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You're kind GB. I realize reading what I wrote that sounds dramatic and whiny on my part. Mostly because it is dramatic and whiny on my part. It's ok. It may mean making some changes but I'm good with prioritizing the life part first. Took me a little while but I woke up to that about 10 years or so ago. Thanks again for always being kind to me. 

 
IvanKaramazov said:
So here's an example of a well-established member passing along a widely-debunked, out-of-context video clip in an effort to make a particular presidential candidate look bad.  (The Twitter thread that the poster links to serves as a really good illustration of what bad faith argumentation looks like when you really take it to an extreme).  On one hand, I want to follow MT's advice and just completely ignore it because there's no point in engaging with this sort of thing.  On the other hand, it is inevitable that stuff like this is going to result in this forum being semi-unreadable for the next 11 or so months.  

I agree that it's not feasible for the moderation team to be fact checkers and adjudicate a bunch of posts on a one-by-one basis, and I also agree that it's sometimes hard to tell when somebody is trolling as opposed to being honestly out to lunch on a particular topic.  But sometimes this sort of thing is pretty easy.  
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I noticed he was in the thread after I responded afterwards, and could see he was posting something but obviously he opted not to. 

 
parasaurolophus said:
Try not to view it as if the left wing trolls are exclusively trolls all the time.

You dont see it because you agree with the sentiment. 

A perfect example of left wing trolling that you have participated in and likely dont even notice when other people do it is to drop in on a thread about topic xyz and ask why a poster isnt posting in Trump thread version abc. Now this has been greatly minimized with the focus on moderation, but I am sure you never saw this as trolling. How many times do you think you did this in the Kaepernick thread?

Another version of this is dropping into a specific topic and posting a trump whataboutism. 

There is no legitimate purpose for dropping into a specific topic and making completely off topic comments like that. None. It is trolling. 

And i am not saying it never happens the other direction or that I have never done so myself.
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All right, You raise very fair points here. I have been guilty of what you described in the past. And I don’t think of myself as a troll. So I have to rethink the way I look at this whole conversation now. 

 
Joe Bryant said:
I don't think shutting it down would necessarily mean it failed. Some things just run their course. Others just don't bring enough positive to outweigh the negative. Chapters end. 
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Chapters end, new ones begin.  Water will always find  the level.  Reading though all these posts you might be doing some people a favor as things have not changed.

 
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IvanKaramazov said:
So here's an example of a well-established member passing along a widely-debunked, out-of-context video clip in an effort to make a particular presidential candidate look bad.  (The Twitter thread that the poster links to serves as a really good illustration of what bad faith argumentation looks like when you really take it to an extreme).  On one hand, I want to follow MT's advice and just completely ignore it because there's no point in engaging with this sort of thing.  On the other hand, it is inevitable that stuff like this is going to result in this forum being semi-unreadable for the next 11 or so months.  

I agree that it's not feasible for the moderation team to be fact checkers and adjudicate a bunch of posts on a one-by-one basis, and I also agree that it's sometimes hard to tell when somebody is trolling as opposed Tonight  being honestly out to lunch on a particular topic.  But sometimes this sort of thing is pretty easy.  
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@ren hoek is pretty unique around here. More than any other poster he represents his own constituency. While I rarely agree with him, and almost always question his sources I admire his willingness to stick to his guns in the face of almost universal opposition to his point of view. And he never insults or attacks anyone; his posts are always 100% content (insane content IMO but content nonetheless.) i say let him be. 

 
timschochet said:
@ren hoek is pretty unique around here. More than any other poster he represents his own constituency. While I rarely agree with him, and almost always question his sources I admire his willingness to stick to his guns in the face of almost universal opposition to his point of view. And he never insults or attacks anyone; his posts are always 100% content (insane content IMO but content nonetheless.) i say let him be. 
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You could have left out the “insane” comment.

 
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