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Who will be the starting WR (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter gocats
- Start date
gocats
Footballguy
Horn out, Copper and Henderson both available
http://www.nfl.com/gamecenter/live/NFL_20061112_NO@PIT
http://www.nfl.com/gamecenter/live/NFL_20061112_NO@PIT
JohnnyU
Footballguy
What does one game say? Henderson was more productive than Copper last year. I own Copper in 4 of 5 leagues, so I wish he would be the WR #2, but I just don't see it.
TheFanatic
Footballguy
I agree with you here Chuck. Henderson looks like the more polished player. Henderson didn't play in that game at all. What would Copper's numbers have been if Devery were in there?
mozzy84
Footballguy
henderson had over 150 yards the next two weeks after that game and finished the season stronger than Copper. I own both also in different leagues, I thought it was henderson obviously, but maybe its not...
Pimpin Ain't Easy
Footballguy
Copper backed up Horn, and Henderson backed up Colston. Copper did not start when Colston went down. Henderson did. Since they have plenty of time still I could see Henderson learning Horns position and starting, although IF Copper were to start I wouldn't be surprised either. It's just way too early to know right now. Coin flip IMO.
Sidewinder
Footballguy
Actually, Henderson was on the field quite a bit at Pittsburgh, probably 25 snaps, but did not get a single target from Brees.
TheFanatic
Footballguy
And the game before Copper caught a single pass. Add the stats from the two games and Henderson was better. As he was for the whole season....
The Shizzle
Footballguy
Any first-person quotes from Joe Horn yet on his release?
Sidewinder
Footballguy
So ??
You: "Henderson didn't play in that (PITT) game at all. What would Copper's numbers would have been if Devery were in there?"Me: simply pointing out that Henderson did play about a third of the offensive snaps that game.
As far as Henderson being the more polished player, you'd get some debate from Saint fans, me included. Devery certainly has a lot of upside, given his speed advantage over Copper, and the fact that Henderson played in high school and was recruited to LSU as RB, and really is just learning the WR position, especially how to use his hands.
Jiggyonthehut
Footballguy
Look for it to be a FA acquisition. For a team primed for a run at the playoffs, it cannot be in their best interests to draft an immediate replacement, and probably would be better suited with a vet who can bring some experience and consistancy opposite Colston. Darrell Jackson is the first name to come to mind, as he's got great hands and runs great routes--and will likely take pressure off Colston. Speed will likely be limited but with Henderson in 3WR sets, the combo could be lethal. Really what they need is a player that can run those short-to-intermediate routes well and catch whats thrown his way. Colston is likely to command extra coverage and Jackson's skill set make him a perfect compliment.
ETA: He really could thrive in this offense; defenses literally would have to pick their poision.
ETA: He really could thrive in this offense; defenses literally would have to pick their poision.
Hawkeyeskin
Footballguy
chook
Footballguy
Fixed. I'm a huge admirer of D-Jax but his hands can leave a little to be desired on occasions. However you raise an interesting prospect with him being traded to the Saints. A top QB, 2 top RB's & 2 top WR's - although could they afford it?
I'm sure Alex Smith and the cashed-up Niners would love to have Jackson as their new toy, but can't really see the Seahags trading him to a division rival.
Anyhoo, that's just my worthless
pigskin pimp
Footballguy
<off topic>Reggie Bush sure laid a turd for me that day. Probably the one win I needed for the 06 playoffs.TheFanatic said:
pigskin pimp
Footballguy
11 rushes for -5 yards.BTW Henderson > Cooper<off topic>Reggie Bush sure laid a turd for me that day. Probably the one win I needed for the 06 playoffs.TheFanatic said:
Cooper looks really raw from the few games I watched him play.
pigskin pimp
Footballguy
This probably should be a poll, but...
...hypothethically, if Joe Horn signs with the Vikings, and the Viking players go out on their annual boat cruise, does Joe Horn attend the party OR does Joe Horn stay ashore to entertain his teammate's significant others.
...hypothethically, if Joe Horn signs with the Vikings, and the Viking players go out on their annual boat cruise, does Joe Horn attend the party OR does Joe Horn stay ashore to entertain his teammate's significant others.
TheFanatic
Footballguy
Big deal. I was wrong that Devery didn't play. But it's funny how you decide to use the Pitt game and not the game prior where they both played and Henderson clearly outshined Copper. In the Pitt game Henderson had not catches. In the game prior Copper had a single catch. Oh yeah, I can see why Copper would be the much better bet with that one extra catchSidewinder said:So ??TheFanatic said:You: "Henderson didn't play in that (PITT) game at all. What would Copper's numbers would have been if Devery were in there?"
Me: simply pointing out that Henderson did play about a third of the offensive snaps that game.
As far as Henderson being the more polished player, you'd get some debate from Saint fans, me included. Devery certainly has a lot of upside, given his speed advantage over Copper, and the fact that Henderson played in high school and was recruited to LSU as RB, and really is just learning the WR position, especially how to use his hands.
Of course you fail to mention that between the two games where Copper did well and Henderson did well, Henderson had more yards and a second TD. Your example and continued pimping of the Pitt game screams of Copper owner. We have two games in which Horn did not play. Copper did well in one and Henderson did nothing. Henderson did well in one and Copper did nothing. Comparing the two game that each did well, Henderson out performed. In the end, and this is what is most important, Henderson finished with twice as man yards and had a 23 YPC 
compared to Copper's 16 and two more TD's. If you think Copper is the more polished WR, that's fine. That's why you are on a FFB site and not in the front office. Because I guarantee you, the coaching staff of the Saints is going to see that 23.3 yards per catch and make sure that guy is on the field as much as possible.And if Henderson backs up Colston how did he get 7 starts and Colston got 12? I don't think that is as clear cut as people think. Horn only started 9 games and his "backup" Copper started a grand total 4 games.
So, what else ya got there tough guy?
mozzy84
Footballguy
copper fumbled the ball in the last minutes of the pitt game blowing any chances they had to win also. So he really didnt have that GREAT of a game anyways.Big deal. I was wrong that Devery didn't play. But it's funny how you decide to use the Pitt game and not the game prior where they both played and Henderson clearly outshined Copper. In the Pitt game Henderson had not catches. In the game prior Copper had a single catch. Oh yeah, I can see why Copper would be the much better bet with that one extra catchSidewinder said:So ??TheFanatic said:
Me: simply pointing out that Henderson did play about a third of the offensive snaps that game.
As far as Henderson being the more polished player, you'd get some debate from Saint fans, me included. Devery certainly has a lot of upside, given his speed advantage over Copper, and the fact that Henderson played in high school and was recruited to LSU as RB, and really is just learning the WR position, especially how to use his hands.
And if Henderson backs up Colston how did he get 7 starts and Colston got 12? I don't think that is as clear cut as people think. Horn only started 9 games and his "backup" Copper started a grand total 4 games.
So, what else ya got there tough guy?
identikit
Footballguy
I don't think the Copper/Henderson question will be sorted out til at least training camp. I was watching Colston and Henderson all last summer to see who'd start opposite Horn; right up to the first reg season game, various depth charts had them flip-flopped right to the opening kickoff.
Not to mention that Horn could quite possibly be back...or another FA WR could arrive....
I will say this though: Payton (and Brees for that matter) seemed to go to Copper more and more as the season progressed (not necessarily starts, but # of plays), in spite of his fumbles.
FWIW
Id
Not to mention that Horn could quite possibly be back...or another FA WR could arrive....
I will say this though: Payton (and Brees for that matter) seemed to go to Copper more and more as the season progressed (not necessarily starts, but # of plays), in spite of his fumbles.
FWIW
Id
I'm from New Orleans, so I'm going to set the record straight, here. Devery Henderson is only viewed by Sean Payton and this coaching staff as a stretch the field, big play WR 3.
Colston plays the dynamic, do-everything #1 role. Horn played the 10-15 yard intermediate, sure hands, 1st down making, posession-type WR #2 role. When Horn was hurt, Terrance Copper filled in in this role, last year, exclusively.
Henderson will never be a WR#2 for this team. Now, he may be the NO Fantasy WR 2, because the Saints are able to create so many big plays, and so many of them go to Devery. But do not confuse this with him being the Saints #2 WR in the real world.
Now, who will be the Saints #2 WR? It's going to be someone like a Patrick Crayton type. They want a reliable hard worker, who is smart with good hands for that role. Copper killed them with drops last year when Colston and Horn were hurt.
In the draft, the Saints are going to shy away from first round WR headcases. The success rate since 2000 on 1st round WR picks is around 33%. Look for the Saints to target WR Craig Davis from LSU in the 2nd or 3 rd round. This guy is 6'1'' 200 and ran a 4.45 40 at the combine. So he's explosive and athletic, but has sure hands and excelled in the role that the Saints are looking for from their WR 2 at LSU (Dwayne Bowe was the #1).
Colston plays the dynamic, do-everything #1 role. Horn played the 10-15 yard intermediate, sure hands, 1st down making, posession-type WR #2 role. When Horn was hurt, Terrance Copper filled in in this role, last year, exclusively.
Henderson will never be a WR#2 for this team. Now, he may be the NO Fantasy WR 2, because the Saints are able to create so many big plays, and so many of them go to Devery. But do not confuse this with him being the Saints #2 WR in the real world.
Now, who will be the Saints #2 WR? It's going to be someone like a Patrick Crayton type. They want a reliable hard worker, who is smart with good hands for that role. Copper killed them with drops last year when Colston and Horn were hurt.
In the draft, the Saints are going to shy away from first round WR headcases. The success rate since 2000 on 1st round WR picks is around 33%. Look for the Saints to target WR Craig Davis from LSU in the 2nd or 3 rd round. This guy is 6'1'' 200 and ran a 4.45 40 at the combine. So he's explosive and athletic, but has sure hands and excelled in the role that the Saints are looking for from their WR 2 at LSU (Dwayne Bowe was the #1).
identikit
Footballguy
Crayton would make sense, since I believe he's a FA and Payton's connection with Dallas.Id
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ThePittbully
Footballguy
If the saints don't take a WR in first couple rounds it will almost definitely be Henderson at number 2, but most likely copper will just as many snaps. Saints like to go three and four wide
Couch Potato
Footballguy
Darrell Jackson is not a free agent.
saintfool
Dead sexy
i see them making a play for a vet, just one that doesn't cost as much as horn. stokely, for example, has good hands, experienced and will be less expensive. he can be productive. i don't see them making an early play for WR in the draft because the need is at the defensive end.
Sidewinder
Footballguy
"Big deal" and "tough guy" ?? Are you such an jackazz in person or just behind a keyboard ?Again, I simply pointed out that Henderson did in fact play against Pittsburgh, why is that so difficult to comprehend ? Maybe you should go back and read the entire post before calling someone out, at no point was I "pimping" either player.And you keep clinging to the pointless "who started" more games numbers, the raw stats, and the random game or highlights you see. I'm quite confident in my knowledge of the team....Big deal. I was wrong that Devery didn't play. But it's funny how you decide to use the Pitt game and not the game prior where they both played and Henderson clearly outshined Copper. In the Pitt game Henderson had not catches. In the game prior Copper had a single catch. Oh yeah, I can see why Copper would be the much better bet with that one extra catchOf course you fail to mention that between the two games where Copper did well and Henderson did well, Henderson had more yards and a second TD. Your example and continued pimping of the Pitt game screams of Copper owner. We have two games in which Horn did not play. Copper did well in one and Henderson did nothing. Henderson did well in one and Copper did nothing. Comparing the two game that each did well, Henderson out performed. In the end, and this is what is most important, Henderson finished with twice as man yards and had a 23 YPC
psychobillies
Footballguy
How about Drew Bennett? Brees loves tall targets. Colston and Bennett + maybe Daniel Graham would be tough to deal with in the red zone.
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TheFanatic
Footballguy
Forgive me for using stats, starts and substantive information instead of what some layman sees from his season tickets and the local news. Last I checked you are a fan, not a professional scout....My arguments are based on something that can be debated not the wild ramblings of some N.O. homer and Copper owner
This Year: No idea, but inside track to Henderson
Next Year/Long Term: Someone not currently on the roster
Next Year/Long Term: Someone not currently on the roster
Sidewinder
Footballguy
Feel free to point out any "wild ramblings". With each additional post, you make yourself look more foolish. Good day.
TheFanatic
Footballguy
Sidewinder said:
Keep talking about how much knowledge you have yet you provide no statistical backing at all besides an arbitrary game that backs your position but by no means carries any statistical weight. In fact the only real support you have for your opinion is your first hand "knowledge" of the team. Thanks for sharing that. Now let's get back to something that is quantifiable. Do I need to explain what quantifiable means? You know what they say, Opinions are like A-holes. Everybody's got one. The funniest part is that you say my posts make me look foolish yet at least I bring something to the table other than my opinion which is all you have. But since Henderson smokes Copper in every statistical category, what else are you supposed to argue, right? Either come back with a debatable argument or stop posting because the guy who looks foolish here is the guy that is discussing this like a 4th grader on the play ground. I'm waiting for the, "I know you are but what am I," come back. You can either say, "I agree to disagree," or come up with something better than what you see on the field from your Barca Lounger. Unless you can show me a paycheck stub where some pro team is paying you to evaluate talent I will give your opinion all the credence it deserves which is pretty much nothing without anything to back it up.And before you bring up the fact that you mentioned the Pitt game as satistical evidence to your point, remember that me pointing out the game prior pretty much nullified your argument that when Horn doesn't play Copper is the man across from Colsten.Can't wait for the snappy comeback you come up with now. I'm sure it will have nothing to do with the topic or anything other than what you see with your own eyes. Please refute the TD's, the YPC, the yards, the starts, and on and on. Then we will have something. Till then you are a 4th grade with an opinion and no one is going to change that....bravo....
tipsy mcstagger
Footballguy
That was a really good posting.thadonkey said:
Jiggyonthehut
Footballguy
Yes but he's on the trading block. Makes a whole ton of sense for them to trade. The Saint also just tagged Charles Grant and could eek some worth out of him now instead of letting him walk in a year. Grant for Jackson + a late rounder makes some good sense and would probably work out in both teams' interests. The Hawks just have a logjam of talented recievers on the roster.Couch Potato said:
Sidewinder
Footballguy
Where in this thread did I state that ? Please show me.
I've voiced no opinion on one player being better than the other anywhere in this thread, other than saying it's debatable on which one is more "polished". The fact is, Henderson is still learning the position. He fights balls into his body, does not run short routes very well, and really only excels in catching the deep go routes right now. His hands aren't that great (8 drops in 54 targets to zero drops in 42 targets for Copper). It's very clear to anyone who watched them a lot this year that Henderson has raw talent, but still has a long way to go before being a reliable WR. Copper's faults are more related to his physical skills -- the guy just isn't very fast, and will never stretch the field like Henderson can. He's a reliable special teamer, and can fill in when needed at WR2 or WR3, but will never be a guy who defenses really worry about. They each have a place in Payton's offense, and I don't see either player getting more playing time than the other unless one unexpectedly emerges.But all that is essentially besides the point -- I really have no preference of one player over the other. I don't own either player in any league, nor care who starts/plays more for the Saints. But for some reason you think I'm "pimping" Copper over Henderson. The only reason I can come up with is that you apparently have taken great offense to my pointing out Henderson did play at Pittsburgh, which rendered useless your insinuation that Copper's stats in that game would have suffered had Henderson "played". But you continue to insult (apparently your definition of debate) and call me out for not providing stats to back up my "position". No where in this thread have I said "Copper is the man", or he's better than Henderson. No where have I said Copper should/will start next year opposite Colston. No where. End of story.
TheFanatic
Footballguy
My mistake. It was gocats that was doing the Arbitrary Copper Pimping. You picked up after that with the fact that Henderson did play in the Pitt game and I thought you two were one in the same. This is what happens when you turn off Avatars when surfing at work as to not get in trouble for some of the more risque ones. People tend to be taken for those they are not....Sorry....
psychobillies
Footballguy
Grant is worth much more than that. A stud DE in his prime that can play the run and apply pressure is much more valuable than an injury prone WR that has questionable hands. It's not like the Saints need a #1 receiver either.
428143
Footballguy
They used a second round pick on Henderson in '04. Devery is averaging 20 yards per catch in his two year career. He also started to play like a seasoned vet in the second half of '06. I'd be shocked if Devery wasn't the man in NO next season. Henderson and Bernard Berrian of the Bears are two guys who put up very similar numbers last, and I expect big things from both of them in '07.
http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/players/6809
http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/players/6809
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Mister CIA
Footballguy
Projects at work permitting, I look forward to attending many Saints practices at training camp this August. To anyone else going, drop me a PM.
Watching Colston at just a couple of practices last summer was enough for me to take a flier on him, even before Stallworth was traded (iirc). I hope to have similar dumb luck this upcoming season and get the jump on everyone else, again.
Watching Colston at just a couple of practices last summer was enough for me to take a flier on him, even before Stallworth was traded (iirc). I hope to have similar dumb luck this upcoming season and get the jump on everyone else, again.
I've been watching this thread the last 2 days and must add this. Last training camp there was talk of Henderson not even making the team. He drops balls, runs poor routes and his work ethic has been questioned.
I dont see Copper as the be all end all either. Look for a vet receiver to be signed by the Saints!
I dont see Copper as the be all end all either. Look for a vet receiver to be signed by the Saints!
