bicycle_seat_sniffer
Smells like chicken
I agree, First take? really? :rollseyes:
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QB Russell Wilson, PIT (8 Viewers)
- Thread starter ImTheScientist
- Start date
biju
Footballguy
I never thought I would do this for you Scientist, but
I don't think anyone doubts that if Wilson struggles and Flynn plays well Flynn could start. Its a tryout more or less which has been consistent with Carrol's approach
Abraham
Footballguy
I think far too many people are assuming that this is Wilson's chance to win the job, as in if he plays well he will be the starter. It is also possible he could play well and Carroll could say, "we wanted to see him with the starters. He did well and that is going to be something wr build on. Matt gives us a veteran presence and we like what hea done So he will be our starter. "
Hooper31
Footballguy
I think you're wrong. Carroll has been consistent in telling his players that there is a constant battle for playing time. If you practice well and earn it you will play. If Wilson earns it on the field and Carroll doesn't play him I think he will be in serious danger of losing his locker room. That said, we're basing our evaluation of the players from what we've seen on TV. The coaches are seeing far more reps during practice. The other players see it too.
Carter_Can_Fly
Footballguy
Agreed that the media 'can' be tools. I am not sure if the boys on first take are tools or not.The concern with Carroll is what he doing is unconventional. I am not sure if this is smart or if he is completely off his rocker.
Even the Carroll supporters have to accept that this is a fine line that Carroll is walking. If he succeeds he looks like a genius. If not then he has essentially opened himself up to a pile of criticism.
Carroll as of right now at the NFL level has an unispiring 47 and 49 record. As a coach of the Seahawks he is 14 and 18.
Maybe Carroll is the next Belichek who after having sub par years in Cleveland has went on to do wonderful things in New England.
We do know that the Seattle Carroll is going to do things his way, but we just don't have much evidence that his way is or can be successful in the NFL. We do know that the conventional way has proven to be successful. People tend to shy away from difference. Maybe Carroll will help change the theory that you can be successful by being unconventional at the NFL level. Or maybe in a year or two Carroll will be onto his next gig. Time will tell.
That would mean Carroll is changing the approach we have seen to dateie: Golden Tate/Mike Williams
Hooper31
Footballguy
More evidence that speaks to Carroll's style of roster management.
In the off season Seattle signed OG Deuce Lutui to compete for a job at one of the guard positions. Lutui had got his weight down and it seems a perfect fit because starter Moffitt was injured. Seems an easy assumption that Lutui was going to slide into that open position. However, rookie 7th round draft pick JR Sweezy is running with the first team. More suprising is that Sweezy didn't play on the OL in college. He's a converted DT.
In the off season Seattle signed OG Deuce Lutui to compete for a job at one of the guard positions. Lutui had got his weight down and it seems a perfect fit because starter Moffitt was injured. Seems an easy assumption that Lutui was going to slide into that open position. However, rookie 7th round draft pick JR Sweezy is running with the first team. More suprising is that Sweezy didn't play on the OL in college. He's a converted DT.
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Hooper31
Footballguy
What NFL coach isn't being put under the microscope 100% of the time? There's only one barometer for NFL success as a coach. Win, win now, and win in the playoffs.
cr8f
Footballguy
I think the owner is committed to it too even if that means blowing money. How much did they sign Whitehurst for a couple years back? And TJax. Finding a franchise QB is hard.
Besides unless they sell out every week Wilson brings excitement and can make them money.
cr8f
Footballguy
Of course. I still think Flynn starts the season but like Wilson long term.
Abraham
Footballguy
They already sell out every week.
ImTheScientist
Footballguy
Mortimer Ichabod
Footballguy
If you were holding a rookie draft today, where would you rank Russell Wilson?
ImTheScientist
Footballguy
Luck one, Wilson two.
Abraham
Footballguy
Well, okay. LuckGriffinOsweillerTannehill WeedenWilson Cousins
ImTheScientist
Footballguy
lol....wanted to quote this for later reference.
ImTheScientist
Footballguy
cr8f
Footballguy
Real competition is a good point.
Heard him all year in Wisconsin. If not for 2 crazy plays he could have been in the championship game. I can see Flutie pissed because he was born too early. "Why couldn't I play for Carroll?"
Still early, lets see how he plays with the 1's.
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Abraham
Footballguy
Please do. And in 5 years I look forward to examining it with you. Do you have the patience for that?lol....wanted to quote this for later reference.
What have you seen scouting wise from Osweiller to rank him there?And what have you disliked about Wilson to rank him there?
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LargeMouthBass
Footballguy
Sounds like you have a mad man crush on Wilson...
Abraham
Footballguy
I don't dislike Wilson. I actually think he may have a good future. My primary concern with him is that I'm not sure the Seahawks job will ever be a fantasy gold mine and fr all his scrambling and excitement, there are some throws I still haven't seen him make. I like that osweiler has very little pressure but gets to work with John elway. He has the physical tools and siZe, just needs help with decision making. Hopefully being in the room with elway and manning studying film will have a good affect. I actually would not be surprised for all of the players I listed to be starters in three or four years. I think this was a deep group of qbs.
mad sweeney
Footballguy
That's a bit of a stretch. In that scenario, it's not like the starter would be a schlub who hasn't earned a start. If Flynn tanks against second stringers while Wilson shines and Flynn is still named starter and plays poorly in the regular season but stays in, then maybe he might start to lose the locker room. But like you said, and I've said repeatedly, the decision on who to start is not based on how they play in limited action in 2 or 3 preseason games. I have faith in Carroll not only picking the right player to start, but getting the team behind the decision 100%. He is all about competition for the slots and I think it's worked fantastically. Not many disgruntled players in Seattle. Even vets that are cut come back at lower salaries and settle in for not being the annointed starter anymore. The only exception I can think of is naming Jackson the starter early last year but come on, it was against Clipboard Jesus, we all knew who was starting. Pete may have made a mess of this situation, or it may work out. His positives far outweigh his negatives thus far. I'm not going to think I know more than the coaches based on a limited view of the players. I think Wilson WILL be a star QB for the Hawks, but it may not start this year. I'm like you, I don't care who it is, I just want the Seahawks QB to be good and make a huge step this season back towards prominence. Petey and John have more than earned the benefit of the doubt in their decisions so until such time as it's clear that not only were they wrong but that they stubbornly stick to something just so it doen't look like they were wrong, then I'm not going to get crazy about their decisions. All I have to do is remember that we could still be under Mora...
mad sweeney
Footballguy
I'm not going to disagree with the list other than the Osweiler pick. Guy wasn't inspirational in the college games I saw. I guess I'd question Weeden as well because of being on a #### team that's about to go through a complete top to bottom upheaval.
Hey Nostradamus!
Footballguy
Where they rank in a rookie draft obviously depends on scoring system, but my dynasty tiers for rookie QBs would be:LuckGriffinTannehill Wilson WeedenOsweilerFolesCousins
biju
Footballguy
Based on what I've seen of Foles and Osweiler and heard of Cousins I think I may put Oswelier in his own tier down at the bottom.
Hey Nostradamus!
Footballguy
I don't disagree. I'm not really interested in any of them, or Weeden for that matter.
Abraham
Footballguy
Osweiler isn't ready to play Tonorrow. He probably won't be ready by next year. But I really like guys with physical tools and no personal red flags that are given a chance to marinate in a good system. Schaub and orton come to mind in that regard. I can't stand John elway but there is something to be said for him picking osweiler and wanting to groom him.
mcintyre1
Footballguy
Right now, here's how I personally value the rookie QBs:
RG3
Wilson
Luck
------Big Gap-----------
Foles
Tannehill
Weeden
Osweiler/Cousins
Fair warning, I haven't watched Cousins play in the preseason because I've always moved on to another game stream once RG3 was out.
RG3 - For the same reasons I love Wilson, I love RG3. Accurate, has arm strength, good leaderships skills... list goes on. I also can't discount the sheer amount of assets traded for him.
Wilson - I've been super high on this guy ever since I saw him crush the #### out of my beloved Cornhuskers. He's got all the tools to succeed, he just needed a receptive coach to let him showcase them. I would not be surprised if, in the end, Wilson was the best quarterback from this class.
Luck - I have to acknowledge that the guy is a skilled QB, but there's just something about him that I don't like. He can make the throws, he's intelligent, he's hard working... I just don't know what it is that I don't like. I'm skeptical that he'll have early success, and I'm skeptical that the coaching staff/support system in Indy is good enough to turn him into Peyton 2.0. He also just doesn't have that "face of the franchise" feel to him, like the previous two. Of course, that's not a requirement to be a successful NFL QB and keep in mind, I still have him in the tier of "I think these guys have an excellent shot for future fantasy relevance."
Foles - I rank him this highly mostly because of situation. I think he has the talent to run Andy Reid's offense pretty well (heck, if Kolb looked good there, Foles certainly can), and I'm down enough on Vick that I like his chances at starting a game within the next year.
Tannehill - I think he still has work to do as a pocket passer, and I'm not convinced he has a good enough surrounding cast (coaching/organization included) to make the required jump to fantasy success.
Weeden - Too much uncertainty around that organization for my tastes. Top that off with the razor thin margin for error that a 28 year old draft pick has, and I'll be staying away. Too many better QB options in your typical 12 team league to bank on this guy's development.
Osweiler - Latest victim of "Tall QB syndrome." I cringe nearly every time I see this guy throw the ball. He's in that awkward place where a dude at nearly 6'8" has to throw almost sidearm to keep the ball the right height for his receivers. At least, that's the best way I can describe what I think is wrong with how he throws. He doesn't look comfortable doing it and the passes have a weird trajectory to them. I say all of this as an Osweiler owner.
Cousins - Incomplete.
RG3
Wilson
Luck
------Big Gap-----------
Foles
Tannehill
Weeden
Osweiler/Cousins
Fair warning, I haven't watched Cousins play in the preseason because I've always moved on to another game stream once RG3 was out.
RG3 - For the same reasons I love Wilson, I love RG3. Accurate, has arm strength, good leaderships skills... list goes on. I also can't discount the sheer amount of assets traded for him.
Wilson - I've been super high on this guy ever since I saw him crush the #### out of my beloved Cornhuskers. He's got all the tools to succeed, he just needed a receptive coach to let him showcase them. I would not be surprised if, in the end, Wilson was the best quarterback from this class.
Luck - I have to acknowledge that the guy is a skilled QB, but there's just something about him that I don't like. He can make the throws, he's intelligent, he's hard working... I just don't know what it is that I don't like. I'm skeptical that he'll have early success, and I'm skeptical that the coaching staff/support system in Indy is good enough to turn him into Peyton 2.0. He also just doesn't have that "face of the franchise" feel to him, like the previous two. Of course, that's not a requirement to be a successful NFL QB and keep in mind, I still have him in the tier of "I think these guys have an excellent shot for future fantasy relevance."
Foles - I rank him this highly mostly because of situation. I think he has the talent to run Andy Reid's offense pretty well (heck, if Kolb looked good there, Foles certainly can), and I'm down enough on Vick that I like his chances at starting a game within the next year.
Tannehill - I think he still has work to do as a pocket passer, and I'm not convinced he has a good enough surrounding cast (coaching/organization included) to make the required jump to fantasy success.
Weeden - Too much uncertainty around that organization for my tastes. Top that off with the razor thin margin for error that a 28 year old draft pick has, and I'll be staying away. Too many better QB options in your typical 12 team league to bank on this guy's development.
Osweiler - Latest victim of "Tall QB syndrome." I cringe nearly every time I see this guy throw the ball. He's in that awkward place where a dude at nearly 6'8" has to throw almost sidearm to keep the ball the right height for his receivers. At least, that's the best way I can describe what I think is wrong with how he throws. He doesn't look comfortable doing it and the passes have a weird trajectory to them. I say all of this as an Osweiler owner.
Cousins - Incomplete.
Carter_Can_Fly
Footballguy
Does Carroll have a strong hold on the coaching job going forward?
What do the Seahawks fans think of Carroll as a coach?
I keep hearing many of the fans here say they love what Carroll is doing by offering up competition and giving everyone a fair shot. This is all well and good, but so far his results have yielded mixed results.
Can you imagine if Carroll was coaching in one of the bigger markets and was coming off back to back sub .500 seasons. If Carroll has another losing record where will Seattle be after this year as a team? Franchise? Is Carroll then on the hot seat?
What do the Seahawks fans think of Carroll as a coach?
I keep hearing many of the fans here say they love what Carroll is doing by offering up competition and giving everyone a fair shot. This is all well and good, but so far his results have yielded mixed results.
Can you imagine if Carroll was coaching in one of the bigger markets and was coming off back to back sub .500 seasons. If Carroll has another losing record where will Seattle be after this year as a team? Franchise? Is Carroll then on the hot seat?
werdnoynek
Footballguy
if wilson ends up winning the QB job, i think the players would love carroll even more. it will ring thru that when he says the best player (through competition) wins, he means it. if the players get behind him it will only make the team better imo. if he gets the best out of his players, he could be there for a very long time...
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What has RFIII done thus far to rank him higher than Luck, who was about as impressive as can be in the first game, and then showed remarkable resiliency in the second game? As for Wilson being ranked above Luck as well, this is laughable. Can I be in one of your leagues?
werdnoynek
Footballguy
at least he told us why he feels the way he does... saying something is laughable doesn't really help anyone does it?
Abraham
Footballguy
You are making the BIG assumption that the players think:/would think that Wilson were the clear winner of the competition.
General Malaise
Footballguy
Hooper31
Footballguy
That's tough to answer. In the NFL everyone is on a short leash. Yesterday's star is always one day away from being tomorrow's goat.
Sign me up as a fan. I like what he's done with the roster. I like his focus going forward.
I'm of the opinion that the roster was in shambles when Holmgren was sent packing and Mora took over. Quite frankly, I think there were only a very small handful of players that any other NFL team would have wanted on their roster. I think most Seattle fans were enthusiastic to see them win as much as they have over the past two seasons. If you would have told me they would win 14 regular season games and a playoff game two years ago I wouldn't have believed it.Love the competition at all positions. Even more so, love the fact that the new administration won't cling to player in decline. Allowed Mike Williams to make a big contribution, and also sent him packing when he wasn't going to contribute any longer.Is he on the hot seat? I think ALL coaches in the NFL are always on the hot seat. That said, I think the majority of Seattle fans feel good about the direction of the team. I think most feel way better about the direction of the team now compared to the Mora/Ruskell days of three years ago.
ImTheScientist
Footballguy
Only a blind old man wouldn't be able to see he was winning the competition thus far....
mad sweeney
Footballguy
His two years: 14 wins including the legendary BeastQuake gamePrevious two yeas: 9 winsMore important than wins is improvement in the rebuilding process and it cannot be argued that not only every position, but the depth at each position is improved from when he got the team. Fans love him, he's brought excitement and personality to the job and it shows with the players. His job is very secure. If he's heading the wrong wy in 2 years, then he may start feeling the heat, but he'll be given every opportunity until then.
ImTheScientist
Footballguy
mad sweeney
Footballguy
We're judging Wilson to be the best choice at QB based on a few preseason games. The coaches and players know far more than we do. I think no matter who wins the starter job, the point that the best player plays is already been made. We can't assume that that's what the players want.
mcintyre1
Footballguy
I'm assuming you mean RGIII. That's easy, I don't base my rankings on two preseason games. I liked RG3 more before they stepped foot in the NFL, and that stance hasn't changed. And I'd be perfectly happy to lighten your wallet, but my leagues don't have any openings.
I'm intrigued by Wilson's skills but the thing that's interesting to me about this situation is that it seems to be following an unusual trajectory for QB battles. Normally when there is momentum for a young, more "exciting" QB to take over the starting role, it is because there is a groundswell of fan support for the new guy and, more importantly, the incumbent is actually playing poorly.
As far as I can tell, the majority of Seahawks fans think Flynn should at least open the season as the starter. But putting that aside, it doesn't seem like Flynn has really done much wrong - it's not like he has been brutal like Kevin Kolb or Kyle Orton last year before Tebow took over. Wilson may have outplayed Flynn so far but only slightly. They would both probably perform at a similar level if given the chance to start in the regular season (by that I mean the Seahawks would likely win about the same number of games regardless).
This is looking more and more like a genuine competition situation that Wilson is actually "winning" through good play, rather than by default because of the other guy's poor performance.
As far as I can tell, the majority of Seahawks fans think Flynn should at least open the season as the starter. But putting that aside, it doesn't seem like Flynn has really done much wrong - it's not like he has been brutal like Kevin Kolb or Kyle Orton last year before Tebow took over. Wilson may have outplayed Flynn so far but only slightly. They would both probably perform at a similar level if given the chance to start in the regular season (by that I mean the Seahawks would likely win about the same number of games regardless).
This is looking more and more like a genuine competition situation that Wilson is actually "winning" through good play, rather than by default because of the other guy's poor performance.
Abraham
Footballguy
You've watched them practice this offseason?
Hooper31
Footballguy
Feeling like I should explain why I think most Seattle fans are very excited about the prospect of Wilson.
After the 2005 Superbowl Seattle watched the Seahawks quickly fall into a steep decline. Hasselbeck, Alexander, and Jones were all premier players that couldn't stay healthy. Management failed to add young players that could captivate the fan base. I can't think of one player that was added to the roster from 2006 to 2009 that flashed anything worthy of fan excitement on the field. None. Since Carroll has showed up there are too many players to count that have re-energized the fan base. These players have come through free agency and the draft.
WR BMW was a great story.
OT Okung looks like a fixture for years to come if he can remain healty.
FS Earl Thomas has the potential to be the best at his position in the NFL.
SS Bam Bam Kam was added in the same draft as Okung and Thomas.
CBs Sherman and Browner came from nowhere to play like stars. Well, Sherman looks like a superstar IMO. Browner is a penalty waiting to happen.
RB Lynch was traded for and brought us the Beastquake. Perhaps the single greatest run in NFL history.
LB Wright was instilled as a starter as a rookie as the team cast aside presumed defensive savior Curry.
WR Baldwin (rookie free agent) led the team in catches and yards.
DT Bryant was switched to DE creating a very formidable run defense.
DE Clemons was brought in via trade and has back to back double digit sack seasons.
The roster has undergone major changes. Suddenly there are players all over the place that the fans are excited about. The defense is very young and already looking like a formidable group. What they need is a playmaker on offense. Is Wilson that playmaker? My guess is that most fans don't think Flynn is that playmaker, but Wilson might be. Time will tell.
Lastly, Seattle is a fair-weather sports market. They will love a winner. I've been monitoring Seattle sports closely since the late 70s. Dang, I feel old now. They won't just love a winner, they will go nuts for a winner, and the number of winners here in Seattle have been sparse. Seattle fans went nuts over the mid 1980s Seahawks. They loved Largent, Warner, Easley, and Krieg. After that run I waited 20 years for a Seahawk playoff win. That was a long time. The current roster has that same feeling. Good young defense. Solid run game. They just need an offensive playmaker. My gut tells me Flynn is not that guy. I'm thinking most Seattle fans see it to. Someone else mentioned it earlier in the thread. Flynn just looks like a guy. Wilson looks special. Whatever happens I hope I don't have to wait 18 more years for another playoff win.
After the 2005 Superbowl Seattle watched the Seahawks quickly fall into a steep decline. Hasselbeck, Alexander, and Jones were all premier players that couldn't stay healthy. Management failed to add young players that could captivate the fan base. I can't think of one player that was added to the roster from 2006 to 2009 that flashed anything worthy of fan excitement on the field. None. Since Carroll has showed up there are too many players to count that have re-energized the fan base. These players have come through free agency and the draft.
WR BMW was a great story.
OT Okung looks like a fixture for years to come if he can remain healty.
FS Earl Thomas has the potential to be the best at his position in the NFL.
SS Bam Bam Kam was added in the same draft as Okung and Thomas.
CBs Sherman and Browner came from nowhere to play like stars. Well, Sherman looks like a superstar IMO. Browner is a penalty waiting to happen.
RB Lynch was traded for and brought us the Beastquake. Perhaps the single greatest run in NFL history.
LB Wright was instilled as a starter as a rookie as the team cast aside presumed defensive savior Curry.
WR Baldwin (rookie free agent) led the team in catches and yards.
DT Bryant was switched to DE creating a very formidable run defense.
DE Clemons was brought in via trade and has back to back double digit sack seasons.
The roster has undergone major changes. Suddenly there are players all over the place that the fans are excited about. The defense is very young and already looking like a formidable group. What they need is a playmaker on offense. Is Wilson that playmaker? My guess is that most fans don't think Flynn is that playmaker, but Wilson might be. Time will tell.
Lastly, Seattle is a fair-weather sports market. They will love a winner. I've been monitoring Seattle sports closely since the late 70s. Dang, I feel old now. They won't just love a winner, they will go nuts for a winner, and the number of winners here in Seattle have been sparse. Seattle fans went nuts over the mid 1980s Seahawks. They loved Largent, Warner, Easley, and Krieg. After that run I waited 20 years for a Seahawk playoff win. That was a long time. The current roster has that same feeling. Good young defense. Solid run game. They just need an offensive playmaker. My gut tells me Flynn is not that guy. I'm thinking most Seattle fans see it to. Someone else mentioned it earlier in the thread. Flynn just looks like a guy. Wilson looks special. Whatever happens I hope I don't have to wait 18 more years for another playoff win.
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