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RB Alvin Kamara, NO (3 Viewers)
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Gopher State
Footballguy
Get Well soon Special K!
treat88
Footballguy
Can't debate what you have or haven't seen, but if the player was not considered defenseless and they flagged it, it was a bad flag.
OU#1
Footballguy
Stealthycat
Footballguy
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JHz4PiDtw5I
another using helmet as a weapon - Defense dropped their helmet and drove straight into the helmet of Kamara
another using helmet as a weapon - Defense dropped their helmet and drove straight into the helmet of Kamara
Rhythmdoctor
Footballguy
Dr. Octopus
Footballguy
Hankmoody
Footballguy
Not actually correct.
ARTICLE 8. INITIATING CONTACT WITH THE CROWN OF THE HELMET. It is a foul if a runner or tackler initiates forcible
contact by delivering a blow with the top/crown of his helmet against an opponent when both players are clearly outside the
tackle box (an area extending from tackle to tackle and from three yards beyond the line of scrimmage to the offensive team’s
end line).
It's never been called to my knowledge, but it's in the rules and supposed to be called. Note that it says "runner or tackler" so if the RB lowers his head and plows a guy it's "supposed" to be a penalty.
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Futz
Footballguy
treat88
Footballguy
That's fair and hence the "essentially" part of my statement.
But as you noted the "never been called" factors into what I initially stated.
There are egregious instances where non-defenseless players can be illegally hit with the helmet . In reality, that never happens or at least is never flagged.
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In terms of dynasty, where do people see Kamara in the RB rankings? I can't help but think he is due for a bit of a regression next year as that TD rate seems unsustainable. If I could get my hands on something like Mixon + high/mid 1st rounder or Cook + high/mid 1st rounder I would probably do that. I don't think Kamara will flop going forward but his value is so sky high right now.
Dr. Octopus
Footballguy
I rank him 5th. He looks unstoppable to me. The TD rate may not be sustainable but if he is "Marshall Faulk", as Peyton says he is, maybe it will be.
I'm also not necessarily a "sell high" guy when a rookie looks good - sometimes that works out, sometimes it doesn't. I'm not a Mixon fan, but would consider Cook and a 1st (but I'm not sure you'll get that now that the season is over and the Cook owner doesn't get the benefit of playing Kamara now.
themeistersinger
Footballguy
Looking at the replay, it was helmet-to-helmet, but it was the side of the defender's helmet, not the crown. Hence no flag.
Helmets bumping into helmets happen all the time in football. I can't see any way to regulate that out of existence, short of switching to flag football.
Concept Coop
Footballguy
The tackler initiated contact with the crown of his helmet. As I read the rule, it should have been flagged.
Concept Coop
Footballguy
steelers1080
Footballguy
Even if he regresses from his current pace, he'd still easily be top 8. The main worry right now has to be if Brees leaves or retires. If the QB skill goes down and they can stack the box more, then his efficiency could drop.
bigupsetter
Footballguy
The real take away from him not being on the field. how the NO offense moves with Kamara involved
Stompin' Tom Connors
Footballguy
Whooowee, a tough one -- Jones didn't exactly hit with the crown of his helmet, but he did lower his head coming into Kamara and hit him with what looks to me his upper forehead.
The main force of the hit all came from this head contact -- Jones' head was the first thing to hit Kamara, it looked like the hit was intended to be delivered primarily with his head (Jones didn't exactly follow the hit with his body, his arm kinda glanced over the top of Kamara and Jones's momentum nearly carried him past Kamara).
So I think this is a legal hit, however it didn't really live by the spirit of what all football players are taught in terms of tackling technique -- head up, deliver the tackle with the use of the entire body, tracking the near the hip, maintaining leverage, or hitting the thighs of the ballcarrier with the leverage shoulder, wrapping up and driving, etc).
Here, Jones' helmet isn't a piece of safety equipment but used as a tackling accessory. While Jones's hit can be called legal, it's still problematic IMHO from a safety perspective given the intent to use his main, if not sole, means of bringing Kamara down. Delivered to the side of Kamara's own head, not surprising this would cause a concussion whatsoever.
The main force of the hit all came from this head contact -- Jones' head was the first thing to hit Kamara, it looked like the hit was intended to be delivered primarily with his head (Jones didn't exactly follow the hit with his body, his arm kinda glanced over the top of Kamara and Jones's momentum nearly carried him past Kamara).
So I think this is a legal hit, however it didn't really live by the spirit of what all football players are taught in terms of tackling technique -- head up, deliver the tackle with the use of the entire body, tracking the near the hip, maintaining leverage, or hitting the thighs of the ballcarrier with the leverage shoulder, wrapping up and driving, etc).
Here, Jones' helmet isn't a piece of safety equipment but used as a tackling accessory. While Jones's hit can be called legal, it's still problematic IMHO from a safety perspective given the intent to use his main, if not sole, means of bringing Kamara down. Delivered to the side of Kamara's own head, not surprising this would cause a concussion whatsoever.
Skeletore Eh
Footballguy
if that's a penalty they may just want to stop playing the games...
Hankmoody
Footballguy
I mean it's in all caps right there for you.
INITIATING CONTACT WITH THE CROWN OF THE HELMET
tackler initiates forcible contact by delivering a blow with the top/crown of his helmet against an opponent
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treat88
Footballguy
Which, as you mentioned, is never called except against a defenseless player.
Again, defenseless is the key distinction to understanding when it will and won't be called.
It would have to be a truly egregious use of the helmet to call the crown rule. Doesn't happen in the course of any routine football play.
Football Jones
Footballguy
Yeah, that's why I was really surprised there was no flag on the play. That's exactly the kind of hit that should be called to protect against concussions (& have seen called quite a bit).Hankmoody said:
Maybe it didn't look too bad, but that's a vicious blow right to the side of the head with the top of the helmet.
treat88
Footballguy
Not being argumentative, but I would love to see an example of the crown rule called against a non-defenseless player. Does anyone possibly have a link to such a play?
Football Jones
Footballguy
I don't have a link, but I've seen similar hits called & it immediately surprised me it wasn't called given the shot he took.
Regardless, main thing is it should've been called. Whether the defender meant to or not, those kinds of hits need to be penalized because they cause concussions.
Keep your head up so you see what you're targeting. It's simply technique.
It’s rarely, if ever called unless it’s against a QB, or a player that has been deemed defenseless. It just isn’t called.
treat88
Footballguy
Exactly. If a player is not defenseless that type of play has not been flagged since the inception of the rule in 2013.
Helmet to helmet is only called against a defenseless player. Period.
Folks can point to Article 8 and say it should be called, but we obviously don't understand when the league wants that rule applied.
At the end of the day, recognizing that this type of hit has never been penalized and is therefore legal for all intents and purposes was my entire point in posting.
No matter the shoulds and ought to bes, helmet to helmet contact is functionally legal in any situation that doesn't involve a defenseless player.
So many of the discussions on here devolve into complaints about hits involving helmet to helmet issues, I thought it was worth pointing out that if the player isn't defenseless the discussion is over. As the rules are called,it's legal once that is established.
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Football Jones
Footballguy
My point is I don't care if he's defenseless or expecting the hit, that's GOT to be called. It doesn't matter what the circumstances are. It's irrelevant.
Get your dann head up & stop hitting people wirh the crown of your helmet, for one, so you don't break you're own neck, & secondly, to save the other guy a concussion.
The defender essentially used his helmet as a weapon. Sometimes it's virtually impossible for the defender to miss the ball carrier's helmet if he ducks his head at the last second in a head-on situation, but that wasn't the case. Maybe it's not called that often, but that exact type of hit should be called every time.
Sometimes it's hard to see in traffic which might've been the case here, not sure. Still, it was a missed call which is the reason I initially posted. The excuse it's not often called is invalid.
Not trying to be argumentative, but I think we can agree that type of hit is a problem. The solution is simple if defenders will use proper technique & keep their head up.
Get your dann head up & stop hitting people wirh the crown of your helmet, for one, so you don't break you're own neck, & secondly, to save the other guy a concussion.
The defender essentially used his helmet as a weapon. Sometimes it's virtually impossible for the defender to miss the ball carrier's helmet if he ducks his head at the last second in a head-on situation, but that wasn't the case. Maybe it's not called that often, but that exact type of hit should be called every time.
Sometimes it's hard to see in traffic which might've been the case here, not sure. Still, it was a missed call which is the reason I initially posted. The excuse it's not often called is invalid.
Not trying to be argumentative, but I think we can agree that type of hit is a problem. The solution is simple if defenders will use proper technique & keep their head up.
Elevencents
Footballguy
Concept Coop
Footballguy
Sebowski
Footballguy
ahartig
Footballguy
Concept Coop
Footballguy
If I'm reading the policy corretly, it sounds like he's been cleared, or he wouldn't be practicing.
"c. Prior to return to practice or play, not only must the team physician clear the player, but the Independent Neurological Consultant with expertise in concussion must also evaluate and clear the player for return to practice and play.
d. A player may be considered for return to practice and play only after the player has returned to baseline status with rest and exertion, has repeat neuropsychological testing which is interpreted by the team neuropsychology consultant as back to baseline levels of functioning, and has completed the Return to Participation Protocol referenced above and is cleared by the Team Physician and the Independent Neurological Consultant."
"c. Prior to return to practice or play, not only must the team physician clear the player, but the Independent Neurological Consultant with expertise in concussion must also evaluate and clear the player for return to practice and play.
d. A player may be considered for return to practice and play only after the player has returned to baseline status with rest and exertion, has repeat neuropsychological testing which is interpreted by the team neuropsychology consultant as back to baseline levels of functioning, and has completed the Return to Participation Protocol referenced above and is cleared by the Team Physician and the Independent Neurological Consultant."
I read it as he was present on the field, not definitively practicing so maybe he has yet to be cleared. I hope I'm wrong.
Concept Coop
Footballguy
pantherclub
Footballguy
oh boy. I got lucky last week without him I dont think it will happen 2 weeks in a row with out some points from him
SameSongNDance
Footballguy
I don't think we're out of the woods yet.
ZWK
Footballguy
This is what Danny Trevathan was suspended for earlier this year, right? Davante Adams was a runner, not a defenseless receiver - he had taken several steps after catching the ball, broken one tackle, and was trying to fight through the safety's tackle - when Trevathan came flying in with the crown of his helmet and hit Adams in the head. Trevathan got a 15 yard penalty and a suspension for it.
ahartig
Footballguy
Saints’ RB Alvin Kamara, who left Thursday night’s game vs Atlanta with a concussion, told reporters today: “Im good to go. I’m gonna play.”
https://twitter.com/AdamSchefter/status/941059091836829696?ref_src=twsrc^google|twcamp^serp|twgr^tweet
https://twitter.com/AdamSchefter/status/941059091836829696?ref_src=twsrc^google|twcamp^serp|twgr^tweet
Wrigley
Footballguy
pantherclub
Footballguy
Concept Coop
Footballguy
"Good to go" could mean out of the protocol. - nervous owner
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