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Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez Thread (8 Viewers)

The government can be federal or state tax authorities.  I don't think its even worthwhile to identify what just reasons are and that rabbit-hole is part of the core problem.  There will forever be a debate as to what is just or needed and the way our government works today the people we elect will determine that.  There are many opportunities for moral sub-optimal in that environment.

I think off of this hierarchy I can explain most of how I think on this topic.  The more  you compromise the top items the less optimal.

I believe in the right of the individual to do what they want and keep what they earn.

I believe government needs to exist and it needs to be funded.  Because of my hierarchy and the fact the government exists only by taking from individuals I believe it should be funded to provide a minimal support structure.  Minimal, similar to "just", is up for definition but my first priority is the right of the individual.

I believe people who earn/retain more will need to disproportionately fund the minimal governmental support structure.

Protect the individual is my guiding principle.  Based on this hierarchy my standard will likely skew to a more limited definition of government and larger focus on lower taxes on individuals than most members on this forum.  Thats ok, I completely understand the reasoning others think differently and they are goals to be admired, I just don't think its optimal. 
You’re asking me to make a moral determination of an action without defining the action. That’s not possible. 

If “the government” is a law or impartial body created to determine whether a person’s crimes necessitate forfeiture to the victims, then I’m okay with that being a just reason to confiscate the property of a criminal being executed in some circumstances.  These aren’t questions that can be answered one and only one way for all examples in history. 

 
A federal law restricting the ability of states to determine what to do with their tax revenue seems to strike at the heart of the "united states" doesn't it? 
I don’t know.

Part of me wonders if it would be an unconstitutional overreach of the federal government, but the other part of me thinks it’s protecting local governments from competing against their best interests. 

 
You’re asking me to make a moral determination of an action without defining the action. That’s not possible. 

If “the government” is a law or impartial body created to determine whether a person’s crimes necessitate forfeiture to the victims, then I’m okay with that being a just reason to confiscate the property of a criminal being executed in some circumstances.  These aren’t questions that can be answered one and only one way for all examples in history. 
Well we can't litigate whats just on every imaginable scenario here either, and the extreme of 100% forfeiture is not really helpful for discussion.  That's why I was explaining my thought process and focus on fundamental philosophical differences rather than case by case figure out whats just.  For me, the burden of proof is on the party that wants to take from the individual.  For many it seems the burden is on the individual to demonstrate they should keep it.

I agree with your scenario though.

edit:  deleted a bunch of scenarios I added, doesnt really add much value

 
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I simply said "My reward for succeeding based on merit is passing wealth to my children".  I was then told that I should also want the environment to not be destroyed and for all people to be successful
Since this part of your post appears to be quoting me, I want to point out that it’s inaccurate. I never wrote what you should want. I wrote what I wanted. What you want is up to you. 

Also, minor but significant: I never wrote that I want all people to be successful, although that’s certainly a worthy goal. I wrote that I wanted a prosperous society, which is very different. 

 
Since this part of your post appears to be quoting me, I want to point out that it’s inaccurate. I never wrote what you should want. I wrote what I wanted. What you want is up to you. 

Also, minor but significant: I never wrote that I want all people to be successful, although that’s certainly a worthy goal. I wrote that I wanted a prosperous society, which is very different. 
Hi Tim.  There must have been a purpose you added your comments to my post other than to randomly elaborate on your desires.  That could be accomplished in a separate thread or even a separate posting in this thread.  But you replied to mine with those desires.  Why?

 
Hi Tim.  There must have been a purpose you added your comments to my post other than to randomly elaborate on your desires.  That could be accomplished in a separate thread or even a separate posting in this thread.  But you replied to mine with those desires.  Why?
Because your comment made me think. As I wrote I agreed with it. But it wasn’t enough for me, I wanted to add thoughts of my own. 

Other people here took issue with what you wrote; I wanted to present a third alternative: I agree but for me it’s not the whole story. And I posted it in this thread because it’s pertinent to AOC as well; I find myself somewhere in the middle between her admirers and detractors. 

 
Well we can't litigate whats just on every imaginable scenario here either, and the extreme of 100% forfeiture is not really helpful for discussion.  That's why I was explaining my thought process and focus on fundamental philosophical differences rather than case by case figure out whats just.  For me, the burden of proof is on the party that wants to take from the individual.

I agree with your scenario though.

How about these:

Increasing wealth confiscation to 80% to provide free K-PhD education for all

Increasing wealth confiscation to 80% to provide a smartphone to 100% of the population over 10yrs old

Increasing wealth confiscation to 80% fund a $10,000 minimum life necessity annual allotment for every individual

Increasing wealth confiscation to 80% end hunger in Africa

Don't do the math on these.
It’s hard to determine the morality of actions without determining need, how well the action would address the need, and what the ramifications would be.  

My personal belief is that there should be a minimum amount before taxes kick in. An then the amount after that that is taken in taxes should depend on the needs of the society and the ramifications to the people whom it’s being taken from. 

 
Because your comment made me think. As I wrote I agreed with it. But it wasn’t enough for me, I wanted to add thoughts of my own. 

Other people here took issue with what you wrote; I wanted to present a third alternative: I agree but for me it’s not the whole story. And I posted it in this thread because it’s pertinent to AOC as well; I find myself somewhere in the middle between her admirers and detractors. 
OK.  Yes, others took issue and without any context yours seemed to as well.  The third alternative is great, in practice it requires sacrificing principles (like wealth belonging to an individual), different folks have different priorities/principles.

 
It’s hard to determine the morality of actions without determining need, how well the action would address the need, and what the ramifications would be.  

My personal belief is that there should be a minimum amount before taxes kick in. An then the amount after that that is taken in taxes should depend on the needs of the society and the ramifications to the people whom it’s being taken from. 
Agree in principle, again would say my dial for rights of the individual vs societal needs is likely more towards the individual than most.

How about this.  Pretty safe to say the ramification to Jeff Bezos of taking $1b from him is probably close to nil in terms of impact on him or subsequent generations.  Society could do a lot with that, save many lives.  Take it?

 
Agree in principle, again would say my dial for rights of the individual vs societal needs is likely more towards the individual than most.

How about this.  Pretty safe to say the ramification to Jeff Bezos of taking $1b from him is probably close to nil in terms of impact on him or subsequent generations.  Society could do a lot with that, save many lives.  Take it?
I think if Jeff Bezos died tomorrow his estate should pay a great deal more than $1bn in taxes.  I could be wrong about his liquid worth. 

 
I think if Jeff Bezos died tomorrow his estate should pay a great deal more than $1bn in taxes.  I could be wrong about his liquid worth. 
Dead or alive.  $1B next year in addition to what he pays today or $1B in addition from his estate based on todays tax code.

The money is used to repaint all of the traffic signs in the US which statistically is proven to reduce fatalities by 5 people.

 
Dead or alive.  $1B next year in addition to what he pays today or $1B in addition from his estate based on todays tax code.

The money is used to repaint all of the traffic signs in the US which statistically is proven to reduce fatalities by 5 people.
I’m sorry, I’m losing your example. Now it’s just taking money from Jeff Bezos alone while still living to pay for traffic signs? I think I’ve made my position fairly clear. This seems to just be randomly peppering me with fairly ridiculous questions. 

 
I’m sorry, I’m losing your example. Now it’s just taking money from Jeff Bezos alone while still living to pay for traffic signs? I think I’ve made my position fairly clear. This seems to just be randomly peppering me with fairly ridiculous questions. 
Man, you asked for examples!  Have a good evening.

 
I understand @djmichpoint of view as I shared it most of my life.  My biggest failing was understanding the corporate welfare so many of these ultra rich people get.  He's viewing it from his POV as did I. 

 
Just curious: did you call her "donkey mouth" because you're a racist, or did you call her "donkey mouth" because you're a sexist, or did you call her "donkey mouth" because you've got compromising pictures of FBG staff? Or all of the above?
...or was it because she could eat corn on the cob through a picket fence?

 
I understand @djmichpoint of view as I shared it most of my life.  My biggest failing was understanding the corporate welfare so many of these ultra rich people get.  He's viewing it from his POV as did I. 
I don’t think my view requires support of corporate or rich people welfare.  I support the opposite.  I don’t like that Buffet pays a lower % than his secretary, if that’s an example of what you mean.

 
It was never very likely that someone screamed “this is MAGA country” in Chicago. 
I believed it. I usually always believe people in these situations. It really angers me that this guy would do this; makes it so much more difficult for others. Like the Duke Lacrosse rape case it will be offered again and again as “proof” that actual bigotry isn’t as bad as most of us know it to be. I hope his career is ruined. 

I imagine AOC is embarrassed for jumping to his defense. 

 
I believed it. I usually always believe people in these situations. It really angers me that this guy would do this; makes it so much more difficult for others. Like the Duke Lacrosse rape case it will be offered again and again as “proof” that actual bigotry isn’t as bad as most of us know it to be. I hope his career is ruined. 

I imagine AOC is embarrassed for jumping to his defense. 
It should never be embarrassing to believe people who claim to have been victimized, while also verifying.

 
Embarrassing isnt the right word imo.

Really blows it for the next guy who actually does get jumped for being different. Or whatever reason he allegedly got jumped for....

 
I believed it. I usually always believe people in these situations. It really angers me that this guy would do this; makes it so much more difficult for others. Like the Duke Lacrosse rape case it will be offered again and again as “proof” that actual bigotry isn’t as bad as most of us know it to be. I hope his career is ruined. 

I imagine AOC is embarrassed for jumping to his defense. 
And he was so believable on GMA!

 
I believed it. I usually always believe people in these situations. It really angers me that this guy would do this; makes it so much more difficult for others. Like the Duke Lacrosse rape case it will be offered again and again as “proof” that actual bigotry isn’t as bad as most of us know it to be. I hope his career is ruined. 

I imagine AOC is embarrassed for jumping to his defense. 
This one was not looking good from the beginning. I'm surprised it took this long for the police to get to get to this point.

The media should be ashamed as well (but won't be), and we'll continue down this path of jumping to conclusions without any facts.

Really bad story. This guy must have some serious issues. I hope there are meaningful consequences.

 
I believed it. I usually always believe people in these situations. It really angers me that this guy would do this; makes it so much more difficult for others. Like the Duke Lacrosse rape case it will be offered again and again as “proof” that actual bigotry isn’t as bad as most of us know it to be. I hope his career is ruined. 

I imagine AOC is embarrassed for jumping to his defense. 
Do you expect AOC, Pelosi, Harris, other Democratic leaders who called this a public lynching without any evidence to actually address this? We'll just pivot back to being outraged about the wall, and this will be yesterday's new before long.

 
Do you expect AOC, Pelosi, Harris, other Democratic leaders who called this a public lynching without any evidence to actually address this? We'll just pivot back to being outraged about the wall, and this will be yesterday's new before long.
I don’t know if they will address this. Whoever spoke out about it should address it. 

 
I don’t know if they will address this. Whoever spoke out about it should address it. 
If they do address it, I'd like to know why they made the statements they made (without evidence) before this was investigated. Did they learn any lessons that they can apply in the future?

 
Sure...going to demand that of everyone else who has ever been wrong about something?  
Nobody is perfect, everyone makes mistakes, and she'll continue making reactionary statements, but she should expect backlash for comments like this in regards to the incident that didn't occur. Not about being right or wrong, just don't say stupid things like this before knowing the facts. I realize you're going to respond by attacking Trump, etc. and that's fine, but his behavior doesn't excuse her's.

There is no such thing as “racially charged.”

This attack was not “possibly” homophobic. It was a racist and homophobic attack.

If you don’t like what is happening to our country, then work to change it. It is no one’s job to water down or sugar-coat the rise of hate crimes.

 
If they do address it, I'd like to know why they made the statements they made (without evidence) before this was investigated. Did they learn any lessons that they can apply in the future?
Nothing is going to change after this latest example of the mainstream media and Dems jumping to conclusions.   Nothing will change from the next time that it happens either.  This is the state of our country.  

 
I don’t know.

Part of me wonders if it would be an unconstitutional overreach of the federal government, but the other part of me thinks it’s protecting local governments from competing against their best interests. 
The real issue at hand is that the city is basically colluding with one business to help screw other businesses. 

 
Did you admit you were wrong Friday?  Nope you doubled down and trolled again. Like you have a long history of doing.  You can pull this crap on others around here but I’m calling you out. 
Why would I have admitted I was wrong on Friday? I didn’t think I was. As I wrote, I watched Smollett on TV and found him compelling. I offered an honest opinion. 

I really don’t care if you call me a troll or not but I find it a little bizarre. I acknowledged that I was wrong about this. I gave credit to Widbill for being right. You refused to do the same with the Kaepernick story, you got angry about being called out for it, amd now you resort to calling me a troll. Its a little sad and pathetic, IMO. 

 
Thanks Tim.  No more watching Good Morning America ok?
My personal trainer always has it on at his gym when I’m on the treadmill. Otherwise I wouldn’t; it’s not my kind of show. I don’t care who wins The Bachelor, and Michael Strahan seems like a nice guy but I’m not really interested in what he’s cooking for the holidays. 

 
Why would I have admitted I was wrong on Friday? I didn’t think I was. As I wrote, I watched Smollett on TV and found him compelling. I offered an honest opinion. 

I really don’t care if you call me a troll or not but I find it a little bizarre. I acknowledged that I was wrong about this. I gave credit to Widbill for being right. You refused to do the same with the Kaepernick story, you got angry about being called out for it, amd now you resort to calling me a troll. Its a little sad and pathetic, IMO. 
There’s nothing to apologize for kaep.  Your just angry he sold out for the money and started trolling me. .  

 
I didn’t troll you. Again I offered an honest opinion. You seem to have some difficulty distinguishing between the two. 
Then when asked to back it up with Facts retreated and was proven to be a troll.  And then doubled down in this thread.  Just own your behavior.   There’s a reason Joe put you on notice last year. 

 
Is this where we post about Kapernick now?

Tim and Wreck, I give props to the bigger one of you who can just let it go.

 

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