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QB Tua Tagovailoa, MIA (2 Viewers)
- Thread starter Long Ball Larry
- Start date
Liquid Tension
Footballguy
A lot of good and fair comments about Tua and the Dolphins. The above sums things up for me. I am a Dolphin fan (and a Giant fan) and watched every Dolphin game. I agree that since Flores arrived the Dolphins have been different. As an organization, I think they have made mostly good moves. I was even fully in favor making the move to start Tua and then pulling him when we needed a spark. I think it is a great way to learn the NFL. In fact, I would have a rookie play every other (or 3rd) series so that he can absorb what he learned without going back in there without understanding what happened.
As for Tua, coming off Covid and no off season and adding the serious hip injury, he performed very well overall. I will say that I was surprised that his accuracy wasn't as precise as everyone said it would be and his arm strength was on the weaker side without question. But, I agree with the above quote, this year will tell us a heck of a lot more and I anticipate he takes a large step forward as he had a lot working against him. BTW, he is a little small too and that is a little bit of a concern.
Finally, I loved that the Dolphins traded down, but was not in favor of trading up - ended up being Waddle. Overall, both combined was still positive, but, I would have added Sewell. If they could have traded up and gotten Chase, I would have agreed it was a good move. At the end of the day, I don't know it Sewell will be good or Waddle will be good, but I don't have much confidence "they" know either and this is why I want more picks to help make better outcomes.
NE_REVIVAL
Footballguy
I always thought and still think Flores will be the exception to the BB coaching tree and that Miami is building a really nice team. Not sure about Tua but the criticism is a bit over the top imo. Maybe he doesn't tear things up FF wise this yr, but I think he is going to play a lot better than most seem to think and they will be competing with Buf for the div.
"I didn't necessarily know the playbook really, really good ... I wasn't comfortable calling plays. I think the guys that we had last year were phenomenal. I just didn't have the comfortability of checking plays, alerting plays. I just rode with the play even if I knew in a way that it wasn't going to work. I was going to try to make it work."
Not a good look from your QB.
Not a good look from your QB.
Tha Guru
Footballguy
It seems like having an injury that limits you from running and doing agility drills you’d have more time to focus on the playbook and mental side of the game.
Gatorman
Supreme Elite Maximum Tier
I think what gets lost here (and where I think Miami generally stumbles as does Flo as a coach) is that Offenses are harder than defenses to install and get to "click" First Flo brings a New England style coordinator to try and install a New England style offense. Well, it works if your QB is Brady, and if your WRs buy into the concept completely, but even in New England non-brady QBs and supposedly talented WRs get lost in the system. So, overall, not a great idea.
Year 2, we bring in a retired Chan Gailey bc, well, Fitz is our starter and we will be drafting a guy, and Gailey's old RPO system is a little easier to learn. Well, you go from on the field learning to zoom learning, and Fitz is your starter so he gets most of the reps (especially with no preseason) and The bye gets switched bc of COVID so instead of having 10 weeks to carry the clipboard and learn you get 5 and start game 6 or so.
Now, OC #3 is in and they are installing an offense to Tua's strengths. He's had another offseason (for real this time) to get his body right and learn the playbook. He even stayed in Miami to train and meet with the OCs to get this figured out.
I think he shines this year, but if not, then we may have to go QB shopping in the offseason (Meanwhile, lets not learn from the Tannyhill mistake of giving up on a QB too early...)
Really good analysis. Herbert was historically good for a rookie, especially good under pressure. Fitzpatrick was also great under pressure using analytics, something that was clear from just watching games. Tua did enough good things to give us hope.
OldMilwaukee
IBL Representative
Ministry of Pain
Footballguy
Anything is possible but they could have had an impact rookie QB in this year's Draft but they already invested the No 5 pick overall in Tua so i don't believe that it is anyone other than Tua in 2022 and probably 2023. They are all in but in theory the Phins could be really good along the OL, WR, TE, RB is still a little shaky but most QBs in another year could likely walk on to this team and the foundation they are building and some big things will happen.
I'm not sold on Tua, I was hyped after the AZ game vs Kyler Murray and then it was downhill from there it seemed.
Ministry of Pain
Footballguy
OldMilwaukee
IBL Representative
Dr. Octopus
Footballguy
Ministry of Pain
Footballguy
LB-Jerome Baker became a guy Miami drafted and will now extend his contract.
3 Yr/$39M with $28M of it guaranteed so looks like he will be part of a LB crew with Phillips for the next many seasons. That extension does not start until 2022 so he will still earn a base salary of about $2.5M so it doesn't impact the Cap this season and many think next year it could go significantly higher than right now.
Seems like a good thing for both sides, Baker took a big leap last season.
3 Yr/$39M with $28M of it guaranteed so looks like he will be part of a LB crew with Phillips for the next many seasons. That extension does not start until 2022 so he will still earn a base salary of about $2.5M so it doesn't impact the Cap this season and many think next year it could go significantly higher than right now.
Seems like a good thing for both sides, Baker took a big leap last season.
nittanylion
Footballguy
If you have Tua, and you have a large enough Roster to carry him, would you be at all interested to carry Jacoby Brissett? Between a stable of RB that is likely greater than the sum of it's parts (big fan of the Malcolm Brown addition), Gesicki and the WR corps, that's a nice set of complimentary skill-position Players, which, working together, should produce a well-rounded offense that woudn't force the QB to carry the Team on their shoulders. While Brissett isn't a world-beater, he's at least an upper-tier backup who's shown flashes...I'm putting together a trade package for the Tua Owner who's also rostering Wentz and Love. I'll offer Brissett as one of a few minor pot-sweeteners, as I don't have any use for him.
While we've heard a lot about Tua's ups and downs this offseason, I'm struggling to find info on how Brissett has looked.
While we've heard a lot about Tua's ups and downs this offseason, I'm struggling to find info on how Brissett has looked.
If I had Tua and had roster space there is no reason to not want Brissett. Does it really sweeten anything as far as a trade goes? Probably not.
Helaire-ious
Footballguy
If you need to roster Jacoby, you must be in trouble at QB to begin with so better go make a trade for a starter.nittanylion said:
smbkrypt24
Footballguy
I am a diehard Colts fan and can tell you he can look good in spurts. When he was the starter all year he mightily struggled and his weaknesses were very obvious. He has some good rushing ability that really helps in fantasy, but lacks in passing ability.nittanylion said:
Stinkin Ref
IBL Representative
I kind of disagree here....there is plenty to learn from what we saw last year....it's not really fair to just blindly give him a hall pass for what we saw last year......he was healthy enough for his team to put their "franchise" #5 rookie pick out there to the wolves....so he was healthy enough and the injury must not have been that much of a concern....I think we sometimes give too much credit to this "he was still coming back from an injury" thing....I don't give him near that much of a hall pass....
IMO I think the issue is his arm strength and more importantly his lack of confidence in his arm strength which leads him to check down.....that to me is the biggest concern.....I think even Tua knows his limitations and I think it will cap his ability to be a true franchise guy.....and I'm sorry but the team basically sent the same message when he was repeatedly getting pulled in crunch time and when throws had to be made...
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Or he was an effing rookie with zero preseason, zero training camp and zero OTAs. If you thought that he had to come out and light the world on fire after spending the previous six months rehabbing from injury, then the problem is your expectations.
BobbyLayne
Footballguy
Last year (I know, feels like a decade ago) we knew Stefon Diggs was a 7th round WR3 bc massive downgrade in QB. Both All Pro
Two years ago Lamar Jackson was barely draftable bc he couldn’t hit the broad side of a barn. MVP
Five years ago Goff went 0-7 and looked completely inept; how was this guy the Overall #1 pick? B2B Pro Bowls
As a community, we MISS big time on second year quarterback development all the time.
ETA - Allen was a 3rd year breakout, my mistake
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The Dolphins are really setting up Tua for success - the additions of Waddle and Fuller are significant. The line isn't great but he has a ton of weapons to work with. I do think his range of outcomes is perhaps the widest of any QB this year. I can see a scenario where he's a top 10 QB but I can also see one where he loses the job. I don't think the first scenario is hard to imagine - he harnesses Waddle, Parker, Fuller et al and they throw a lot. In the latter scenario, if he's playing poorly and turning the ball over but the team is still in contention, I can see them going to Brissett. Brissett is one of the better backups in the NFL (career TD/INT ratio of 31/13) and can effectively game manage. He won't win games for you on his own but he generally won't lose them, either. Don't get me wrong, I think Flores would be very unhappy if things panned out this way but if they are, let's say, 5-5 and Tua is playing as poorly as he did last year, I do wonder if they'd pull him, heading into Jets, Panthers, Giants, BYE and Jets.
Obviously, the most likely outcome by far is somewhere in between - he progresses, isn't amazing but is solid, and he keeps the job all year. He's someone I'm interested in because of the new weapons and the upside but I do think there's bigger downside than most other QB's, as well.
Obviously, the most likely outcome by far is somewhere in between - he progresses, isn't amazing but is solid, and he keeps the job all year. He's someone I'm interested in because of the new weapons and the upside but I do think there's bigger downside than most other QB's, as well.
Stinkin Ref
IBL Representative
I'm just giving you an opinion....and actually my expectations were very low because I don't think he is going to be very good to begin with...but it has nothing to do with my expectations....you can throw out as many excuses for him as you want....if we are going to give him credit for the good things he did, he also gets credit for the bad things...they pulled him when things got tough for him and were reportedly willing to give up on him when Watson became available...I hope he proves the naysayers wrong....I'm admittedly pessimistic....
Stinkin Ref
IBL Representative
bolded....maybe in some of the moves they made I guess, but prior to that, the opposite was true, especially because:
1. some (around here at least) think he was still injured and they rushed him back too early, especially with no preaseaon, ota's, training camp....kind of actually setting him up for failure??
2. they pulled him when times got tough and you need your QB to be special and make throws
3. they seemed to be willing to give up on him for Watson
rough start and not great messages from your team initially....IMO
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Tua has looked good on deep balls thus far. But there's lots of debate about his arm strength under pressure when he can't get his feet set. I've seen this stat before, that is mentioned in the twitter discussion:
>>1 (underthrow) was off his back foot w/online getting destroyed. 34th in deep ball completed yet 2nd in catchable deep balls thrown.<<
https://mobile.twitter.com/schadjoe/status/1421482548186779650
The 41-yard pass to Devonta Smith to win the championship was a 45 air yard strike. I'd be happy with a few of those in 2021 to Fuller, Waddle or Wilson.
>>1 (underthrow) was off his back foot w/online getting destroyed. 34th in deep ball completed yet 2nd in catchable deep balls thrown.<<
https://mobile.twitter.com/schadjoe/status/1421482548186779650
The 41-yard pass to Devonta Smith to win the championship was a 45 air yard strike. I'd be happy with a few of those in 2021 to Fuller, Waddle or Wilson.
BobbyLayne
Footballguy
I’m not sure I saw Tua even once during his rookie year except highlights, so I watched Miami at Arizona earlier this month (before GamePass did their “update” and took away the All 22 and Player Search function.) I was very impressed. Great game btw (34-31 Fins.)
Anyway, I’ve been looking at different deep ball studies from last year and he was actually middle of the pack. If the WRs get/stay healthy, we should see progression. Miami fans seem pretty down on him rn but I think the kid could take a big step forward this year. He’s got a lot of weapons, and their D is excellent.
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Tua is probably my favorite QB2 this year. I don't think he's getting anywhere near as much credit as he should be getting. He didn't have the yards, but his rate stats were every bit as good as Joe Burrow's last year, and his weapons weren't as good as Burrow's in my opinion.
I've got Tua as a top-15 QB, and he'll likely run more as he is further removed from his hip injury. There is certainly top-10 upside here.
DocHolliday
Footballguy
Interesting take. I feel as though Miami wants Tua to be a game manager and the team hopes to win with their D. I don’t see a top 15 QB.travdogg said:
Hot Sauce Guy
Footballguy
in my opinion, one doesn’t add Fuller (deep threat) and draft a speedy deep threat WR to make one’s QB a game manager.
If they did, they’re throwing $ & picks down the drain.
I believe the fish want Tua to throw the ball downfield early & often. My only question is whether he can do it at the pro level. He’s got the tools.
I don't think the defense is anywhere near good enough to do that, especially if they deal Howard. Tua reminds me a little bit of Prescott, where I think they were being careful about how much they put on his plate, but now the weapons were massively upgraded, and the team will need to ask more of him.
