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Saving the PSF - How can we, as a community, make this place better


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I'm a lurker, as evidenced by my comically low post count relative to the duration of my membership, but I just don't understand why so many of you make this so difficult.  I've had one person on igno

I think this subforum would function more smoothly if everybody put everybody else on ignore.

@Joe Bryant I slept on this and thought about how you are approaching this. A couple of thoughts. - You're taking ownership for other people's actions. I think that's being unfair to yourself. Yo

57 minutes ago, McBokonon said:

I know some people have explained they continue to engage with trolls because they want to counter their disinformation for other parties who might see it. Just get over that and use the ignore feature. My ignore list is practically a novella at this point.

I think this is pretty much the only answer. 

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This place is 95% liberal and some are more left than others, so you would think there wouldn't be much squabbling between those folks.  It's basically the 95% attacking the 5% most of the time.  So this tells me the 5% are holding their own in this overwhelming biased liberal echo chamber.

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1 hour ago, Ramblin Wreck said:

You’re responsible for your own behavior.  Has nothing to do with Trump or anyone else. 

Agreed on ultimate responsibility, but you have to admit that we didn’t nearly have as much acrimony before Trump as we do now. The insults, attacks, unexcellent behavior have been much more pronounced during the Trump years. 

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6 minutes ago, JohnnyU said:

This place is 95% liberal and some are more left than others, so you would think there wouldn't be much squabbling between those folks.  It's basically the 95% attacking the 5% most of the time.  So this tells me the 5% are holding their own in this overwhelming biased liberal echo chamber.

95% lol. 

Honestly I don’t even think of it as liberal vs conservative anymore. Most of the time it’s Trump supporters  vs Trump critics. There are more Trump critics than supporters here but it’s not that huge a discrepancy. Say about 60-40. 

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Can only say i will do my best to be better.

Im done with a certain poster.  Im sure many will be happy with that.  No meed to keep trying.  Been doing what I could already to just talk about the posts...but even that doesn't help with some.

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3 minutes ago, timschochet said:

95% lol. 

Honestly I don’t even think of it as liberal vs conservative anymore. Most of the time it’s Trump supporters  vs Trump critics. There are more Trump critics than supporters here but it’s not that huge a discrepancy. Say about 60-40. 

How many conservatives can you name on this board that post regularly?  I venture to guess the number is less than 20 and probably less than 10.

Edited by JohnnyU
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3 minutes ago, timschochet said:

95% lol. 

Honestly I don’t even think of it as liberal vs conservative anymore. Most of the time it’s Trump supporters  vs Trump critics. There are more Trump critics than supporters here but it’s not that huge a discrepancy. Say about 60-40. 

More like 87-13 or so.

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Just now, JohnnyU said:

How many conservatives can you name on this board that post regularly?  I venture to guess the number is less than 20.

They got snuffed out by the Alt-right Tea Party types. Been slowly happening as far back as the end of the Bush admin. 

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2 minutes ago, BigSteelThrill said:

They got snuffed out by the Alt-right Tea Party types. Been slowly happening as far back as the end of the Bush admin. 

No, they got snuffed out by far left liberals.   Probably thought it wasn't worth arguing anymore since they were mostly outnumbered 95-5.  Thus the echo-chamber you have today.

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8 minutes ago, timschochet said:

95% lol. 

Honestly I don’t even think of it as liberal vs conservative anymore. Most of the time it’s Trump supporters  vs Trump critics. There are more Trump critics than supporters here but it’s not that huge a discrepancy. Say about 60-40. 

To make sure I understand you, you think the board would break down to roughly 60% Trump Critics to 40% Trump Supporters?

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2 minutes ago, JohnnyU said:

No, they got snuffed out by far left liberals.   Probably thought it wasn't worth arguing anymore since they were mostly outnumbered 95-5.  Thus the echo-chamber you have today.

It's not 60-40 or 95-5.

It's about 75-25 left-leaning versus right-leaning, roughly speaking, and about 87-13 anti-Trump versus pro-Trump.

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2 hours ago, Joe Bryant said:

I think you're right. 

I'm just not sure it's possible. I've been asking people to do this for a while now and it's had zero effect as far as I can tell. 

In the sub forum only block the names?? Right now they is so much hate between some people here maybe it might help. I have seen it with a number of guys.   JON for example gets blown up instantly every post even though at times he makes valid points from his point of view. It is totally personal with him from previous stuff. 

Edited by Da Guru
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13 minutes ago, timschochet said:

Agreed on ultimate responsibility, but you have to admit that we didn’t nearly have as much acrimony before Trump as we do now. The insults, attacks, unexcellent behavior have been much more pronounced during the Trump years. 

When did the PSF start?

It was because of Trump. Chicken or egg?

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Just now, JohnnyU said:

No, they got snuffed out by far left liberals.   Probably thought it wasn't worth arguing anymore since they were mostly outnumbered 95-5.

They've been on these very forums stating it was the Alt-right that's driven them away.  That started at the end of the Bush era.

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8 minutes ago, Maurile Tremblay said:

It's not 60-40 or 95-5.

It's about 75-25 left-leaning versus right-leaning, roughly speaking, and about 87-13 anti-Trump versus pro-Trump.

I agree MT, but there are only a small number people who post in the PSF  and they are all the same people everyday with no new blood or thoughts at all. And out of that number 4-5 dominate every thread with sheer volume.

Edited by Da Guru
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2 hours ago, timschochet said:

I also think that if you shut this place down it would be a huge victory for the trolls. I think they would love it, and would love to shut down as many sites for decent political discussion as they can.

Two things.

1. If we shut it down, it won't have anything to do with what you folks call the trolls. 

2. I'm miles past caring about what any "side" wants to claim. 

If we shut it down, it'll be for a completely logical reason and the reason most decisions are made: The cost dramatically outweighs the benefit. 

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2 hours ago, Maurile Tremblay said:

I think this subforum would function more smoothly if everybody put everybody else on ignore.

Two features that would make things much better around here:

- Give the admins the ability to force users to have each other on ignore

- Make it where you can opt to not view posts that are replies to people you have on ignore 

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1 minute ago, AAABatteries said:

Two features that would make things much better around here:

- Give the admins the ability to force users to have each other on ignore

- Make it where you can opt to not view posts that are replies to people you have on ignore 

I don't want to speak for Joe, but why? That sounds like additional cost, be it time or money to implement. 

What about the feature where people just act like adults and ignore other posters? That's free and puts the onus on the posters and not the admins or owner?

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7 minutes ago, Joe Bryant said:

Two things.

1. If we shut it down, it won't have anything to do with what you folks call the trolls. 

2. I'm miles past caring about what any "side" wants to claim. 

If we shut it down, it'll be for a completely logical reason and the reason most decisions are made: The cost dramatically outweighs the benefit. 

My only comment or hope would be that you wait until after the election - that night will be epic in here.  Additionally, and I could be wrong, but if Trump loses it solves most of your problems with the PSF.  If he wins, I don’t know what to tell you.

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1 minute ago, KCitons said:

I don't want to speak for Joe, but why? That sounds like additional cost, be it time or money to implement. 

What about the feature where people just act like adults and ignore other posters? That's free and puts the onus on the posters and not the admins or owner?

This.  And yes I know I've been guilty before of not acting like one so not living in a glass house here.  It would also do a lot of good if some people took a day or three off occasionally.  It's gotta be healthier and for the handful of posters that literally dominate every thread it would give others a chance to get a word in without the same few repeating themselves over and over and over and over.

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2 minutes ago, KCitons said:

I don't want to speak for Joe, but why? That sounds like additional cost, be it time or money to implement. 

What about the feature where people just act like adults and ignore other posters? That's free and puts the onus on the posters and not the admins or owner?

Those are two pretty simplistic things to code - whether or not Invision would want to is another story.

I have no problem with asking folks to act like adults and if in point one they are both people I want to ignore I’ll do that.  The second point is a much bigger problem for me.  I don’t enjoy wasting my time scrolling pasts replies to people I have on ignore - let me ignore those too.

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I joined this site years ago just for FF news and advice.  If they eliminated the PSF and just had the FFA and Shark Pool and the other forums without politics  and religion it would be fine with me and it would not hurt business and probably a much happier, friendlier place. Seems like that is what Joe is looking for anyway.

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My two ideas:

1. Volunteer mods.  I think there are several posters here who care about the forum and would be fair.  This would allow issues to be addressed quicker nipping more problems in the bud.  It would also relieve some of the burden on current mods.

2. Longer bans.  It seems like it’s a lot of the same posters getting in i-fights over and over.  

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5 minutes ago, AAABatteries said:

My only comment or hope would be that you wait until after the election - that night will be epic in here.  Additionally, and I could be wrong, but if Trump loses it solves most of your problems with the PSF.  If he wins, I don’t know what to tell you.

I'm trying to get through this week. The election isn't remotely on the radar.

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22 minutes ago, JohnnyU said:

No, they got snuffed out by far left liberals.   Probably thought it wasn't worth arguing anymore since they were mostly outnumbered 95-5.  Thus the echo-chamber you have today.

No, most of us are still here.

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1 minute ago, AAABatteries said:

Those are two pretty simplistic things to code - whether or not Invision would want to is another story.

I have no problem with asking folks to act like adults and if in point one they are both people I want to ignore I’ll do that.  The second point is a much bigger problem for me.  I don’t enjoy wasting my time scrolling pasts replies to people I have on ignore - let me ignore those too.

I'm sure my IQ is double digits below a lot of people here (maybe triple digits :lmao:). But, I don't think it takes much effort to scroll past multiple posts. We have people here that are doctors, lawyers, have masters degrees, etc. But, it's too difficult to scroll past a few posts? My opinion is that people don't have the self control to move on, or they don't have the emotional intelligence to not let something someone on a random message board posts bother them. Why do we let other people have such a negative effect on our day to day lives? I never understood that part of online discussions.

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4 minutes ago, timschochet said:

 

30 minutes ago, Joe Bryant said:

To make sure I understand you, you think the board would break down to roughly 60% Trump Critics to 40% Trump Supporters?

Maybe 60 is too low. 70-75%? 

 

MT did a poll. https://docs.google.com/forms/d/e/1FAIpQLSeZUjgsmQ28uz0HeDvqNEJDj8bGSbdZauGQ6EejXVOwh9slVw/viewanalytics

87-13 seems t be the number.

Edited by BassNBrew
Wanted my reply to be extra nice.
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Would suck to see this place go.  I've haven't hung out in this forum very long, but I've learned a lot from many of you.  I also feel a lot more comfortable asking questions or sharing opinions here than I do elsewhere.  

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3 hours ago, timschochet said:

Except that for me (and I suspect for most of us who post here on a consistent basis) the good far far outweighs the bad. Or else we wouldn't stick around.

Tim..how did you find this place originally?  For Fantasy Football or politics?

The PSF does not help the FBGs brand or business..in fact sounds like JB is thinking it may be hurting the brand and business.  Nobody found this place to talk politics.  We found it because we wanted to know what was going on in the FF world.   The FFA started to talk about food, family and vacations or whatever. Then politics seeped it and started to ruin the FFA so it was quarantined.  I guess now that is not enough. 

If they get back to the original plan so be it.  We have to realize the small numbers that are on the PSF will not have any impact on the business bottom line at all. 

I get it...

Edited by Da Guru
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3 hours ago, Koya said:

 

Any suggestions on how we can create a better community here? How we can self police and take some pressure off the mods?  

 

Learn how to take a punch. 

Learn how to walk away from a conversation going nowhere. 

Stop trying to win the whose more offended trophy of the day. 

If there are a few posters that always set you off,  ignore them.  At this point,  really,  your failure to use the ignore feature is a you problem. 

Come to grips with the fact that "winning an argument" here means...... hang on..... here it is.... literally nothing.  If you came here to win an argument you're a putz.  Don't be a putz. ( yes there is irony there. )

Bring back the yoga pants thread. 

Give me fiat power. 

 

Any of those will work. 

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3 hours ago, Joe Bryant said:

I think you're right. 

I'm just not sure it's possible. I've been asking people to do this for a while now and it's had zero effect as far as I can tell. 

I disagree.  I know that I think twice before calling people out here.  It causes me to post less, but it's probably for the better to focus on the issues instead of being a jackass.

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3 hours ago, Ramblin Wreck said:

Another big issue is so many people insist on winning an argument that they will never win. 

I realized recently this was a huge problem in the PSF. It's like a bullying brother who insists you cry "Uncle!" It's compulsory, it's not warranted, it leads to badgering, it displays an inflexibility of demeanor, etc.

We're still having debates about polls. Three years later. And I think it's because both sides know it annoys the other. It's not productive anymore, never mind fun to read.

Edited by rockaction
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1 minute ago, rockaction said:

I realized recently this was a huge problem in the PSF. It's like a bullying brother who insists you cry "Uncle!" It's not compulsory, it's not warranted, it leads to badgering, it displays an inflexibility of demeanor, etc.

We're still having debates about polls. Three years later. And I think it's because both sides know it annoys the other. It's not productive anymore, never mind fun to read.

Why are you hitting yourself?

Why are you hitting yourself?

Why are you hitting yourself?

( Rough pseudo- transcript of many back and forths here,  give or take an emoji. )

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In general, I'm not sure exactly how I would feel about the PSF going away. I think I'd miss it, though I contribute much less to political discussion than I once did in the main FFA. It's so hostile now, though, that I'm not sure it's beneficial to the boards overall. I mean, if you read this stuff as a casual subscriber to the product, you might be fully appalled at the tone and tenor of the disagreements. I have tons to say, but I'm not even sure the effort to put it into words is worth it. 

I also vote we give Yankee fiat power. That'll solve it.

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24 minutes ago, Da Guru said:

The PSF does not help the FBGs brand or business..in fact sounds like JB is thinking it may be hurting the brand and business.  Nobody found this place to talk politics.  We found it because we wanted to know what was going on in the FF world.   The FFA started to talk about food, family and vacations or whatever. Then politics seeped it and started to ruin the FFA so it was quarantined.  I guess now that is not enough. 

If they get back to the original plan so be it.  We have to realize the small numbers that are on the PSF will not have any impact on the business bottom line at all. 

I get it ..

 

Footballguys exists by selling subscriptions to our Premium NFL content.

The Shark Pool forum does help with the selling premium subscriptions. The Free For All helps some as I know a few people purchase a premium subscription as a way to support the forums. 

We've talked about trying to make some money from the forums with ads but I didn't have the stomach to put up with the howling I know ads would cause. 

For actual measurable attributable revenue, it's zero money in for the forums.

On the money out side, the forums are expensive to host.

Bottom line is they operate at a significant net loss. 

I have them as I love community. It's how I live my real life and it's how I try to live my online life. I've made a lot of meaningful connections here, mostly through the FFA. I know a great number of other people have as well.

The Shark Pool and the FFA aren't in question here.

What's in question is this Political forum. 

Aside from the revenue cost, by far the bigger cost is the mental energy. We try extremely hard and put a lot of effort into trying to make this a good place for civil discussion. Parts of our Footballguys business suffer because of the energy put into the forums. 

There is some good discussion in the PSF. I won't say it doesn't exist. But it's minimal. And the cost is extremely high. To put this much energy into something and most of the feedback be that I'm running this in a way to provide cover to intentional propaganda and try to subjugate the truth is too much.

Mostly, I'm sick of providing a place where the primary "product" seems to be snark, condescension, vitriol and bullying anyone who disagrees.

I"m not going to make a quick decision today but this feels like it's about done. I'm incredibly disappointed. But I'm not mad. This isn't personal. It's a business decision. 

And again, I'm just talking about the PSF. We'd still keep the Shark Pool and FFA going but have an inflexible position of not allowing anything remotely political. 

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also will point out these are unique and dangerous times we're living through, and part of the reason they are unique and dangerous is the rise of internet-fueled polarization and misinformation.

the PSF reflects this new reality but it's also a place where many posters learned about this new reality and became better informed citizens because of it

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5 minutes ago, Joe Bryant said:

 

Footballguys exists by selling subscriptions to our Premium NFL content.

The Shark Pool forum does help with the selling premium subscriptions. The Free For All helps some as I know a few people purchase a premium subscription as a way to support the forums. 

We've talked about trying to make some money from the forums with ads but I didn't have the stomach to put up with the howling I know ads would cause. 

For actual measurable attributable revenue, it's zero money in for the forums.

On the money out side, the forums are expensive to host.

Bottom line is they operate at a significant net loss. 

I have them as I love community. It's how I live my real life and it's how I try to live my online life. I've made a lot of meaningful connections here, mostly through the FFA. I know a great number of other people have as well.

The Shark Pool and the FFA aren't in question here.

What's in question is this Political forum. 

Aside from the revenue cost, by far the bigger cost is the mental energy. We try extremely hard and put a lot of effort into trying to make this a good place for civil discussion. Parts of our Footballguys business suffer because of the energy put into the forums. 

There is some good discussion in the PSF. I won't say it doesn't exist. But it's minimal. And the cost is extremely high. To put this much energy into something and most of the feedback be that I'm running this in a way to provide cover to intentional propaganda and try to subjugate the truth is too much.

Mostly, I'm sick of providing a place where the primary "product" seems to be snark, condescension, vitriol and bullying anyone who disagrees.

I"m not going to make a quick decision today but this feels like it's about done. I'm incredibly disappointed. But I'm not mad. This isn't personal. It's a business decision. 

And again, I'm just talking about the PSF. We'd still keep the Shark Pool and FFA going but have an inflexible position of not allowing anything remotely political. 

Not sure if you would share the revenue need to keep the PSF open? But, I wonder how many would pay for a subscription in order to keep the forum going.

Also, I think someone suggested volunteer moderators to help lessen the burden on the rest of your staff. They could be FFA or PSA moderators only, not SP. This would allow your staff to remain hands on from a fantasy standpoint in that forum.

Just my :2cents:

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6 minutes ago, snitwitch said:

i thought the whole purpose of the PSF was basically quarantine - keep the contagion isolated here where it can't spread (sorta like the baseball subforum) 

seems like its fulfilling its purpose in that regard, so why change? 

It does serve that purpose for the FFA guy who doesn't want the ugliness as it removes it from the FFA and puts it here.

But it doesn't solve my problem. Here is still under my responsibility. 

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Just now, KCitons said:

Not sure if you would share the revenue need to keep the PSF open? But, I wonder how many would pay for a subscription in order to keep the forum going.

Also, I think someone suggested volunteer moderators to help lessen the burden on the rest of your staff. They could be FFA or PSA moderators only, not SP. This would allow your staff to remain hands on from a fantasy standpoint in that forum.

Just my :2cents:

Thanks. But it's not an issue of money. 

I just included that as I had a conversation today with a friend who was surprised we didn't make a ton of money on the forums. 

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1 minute ago, Joe Bryant said:

Thanks. But it's not an issue of money. 

I just included that as I had a conversation today with a friend who was surprised we didn't make a ton of money on the forums. 

Sorry, I'm confused. (it's the low IQ) 

You stated that the forums operate at a net loss. And I understand that the SP drives subscriptions. If it's not money, then it's time? Is adding volunteer moderators a poor option? You could still oversee how things are being conducted, but there are plenty of people here that are level headed. You could have a checks and balance system to make sure things stay in line with your vision. 

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1 minute ago, KCitons said:

Sorry, I'm confused. (it's the low IQ) 

You stated that the forums operate at a net loss. And I understand that the SP drives subscriptions. If it's not money, then it's time? Is adding volunteer moderators a poor option? You could still oversee how things are being conducted, but there are plenty of people here that are level headed. You could have a checks and balance system to make sure things stay in line with your vision. 

The way I read it, and Joe can certainly speak for himself, is this forum costs him overhead in both significant time and money to operate without generating any revenue. Then to have to commit more moderator time to it given the tone even makes it more a negative cost. 

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