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January 6th - what will happen?


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16 minutes ago, Doug B said:

The property damage during the summer was extensive in some areas ... in some terms, the degree wasn't that different. In other terms, the crimes were wildly different.

However, my main point was that one set of crimes cannot absolve wholly separate** set of crimes. IMHO, "them too!" is always an illegitimate argument when evaluating separate crimes**.


** I say "separate crimes" to specifically exclude heat-of-the-moment self-defense, etc.

I agree with you. 

I was trying to throw a bone to those who are adamant to compare them. 

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The President told MAGA to do it MAGA said they were going to do it MAGA filmed themselves doing it Afterwards, MAGA bragged about it Clearly, it was ANTIFA’s fault

One is an ugly, decrepit wasteland ruled by an assortment of villains hoping to impose their will on peace-loving people everywhere who otherwise just want to be left alone to tend to their gardens.

So they're finally following the CDC guidelines for the pandemic?

2 minutes ago, zoonation said:

Anyone seriously doubt they were looking to take hostages:   

https://twitter.com/jsrailton/status/1347011413101998080?s=21

 

 

I took a dive into his feed last night . Good stuff, fascinated by the guy with the military helmet and zip tie handcuffs . No mask , easily identifiable 

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2 hours ago, timschochet said:

As with any conspiracy theory you’d better have real evidence, not suspicions. I’m open to facts, always, but this seems unlikely. 
Now I do believe that individual cops were sympathetic to the protestors. And also I totally agree with the notion that they treated these rioters much more gingerly than they would have a group of black rioters- that’s absolutely true IMO. But a top down complicity? Show me the evidence because otherwise I don’t buy it. 

100% agree.  It needs to be investigated.  And if there is zero evidence - cool.  So you and I agree.

What’s crazy is that this is even a discussion.  Unreal.

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11 minutes ago, jobarules said:
14 minutes ago, Doug B said:

OK ... and?

Kinda makes the argument of "black people would've been treated differently if they stormed the Capitol" non-factual since we have evidence from the summer showing the contrary.

Also, last I checked, one rioter was shot and killed by Capitol police.

... I thought you were using the summer riots to argue that the Capitol incursion was a legitimate exercise. If not, then no worries.
 

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7 minutes ago, IvanKaramazov said:
16 minutes ago, jobarules said:

Again, a Minneapolis police precinct was burned down and the police just went home.

Also, a chunk of Portland was simply abandoned and handed over to the mob.

Are these instances meant to be exculpatory for those who stormed the Capitol? If not ... what's the point of bringing the summer riots up over and over and over again?

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6 minutes ago, Sea Duck said:

Minneapolis is not Washington D.C.

This is how the Capitol Police respond when black people protest at the capital.

OK Lebron

One picture doesnt tell the story or convince me of anything.

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2 minutes ago, Doug B said:

... I thought you were using the summer riots to argue that the Capitol incursion was a legitimate exercise. If not, then no worries.
 

WOAH absolutely NOT. Not sure why you thought that. What happened at the Capitol was disgusting and embarrassing. What happened this summer was also disgusting.

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6 minutes ago, parasaurolophus said:

I think the point Ivan is trying to make is that minimizing burning down businesses and taking over city blocks has contributed to what happened. 

That letting large groups of people just get it out of their system and pretty much go unpunished can lead to a terrible outcome. 

That referring to an at least partially armed takeover of a section of a city as a summer of love street festival is not good for long term security. 

Agreed x 3. Then say those things explicitly and with precision. Don't ask not-necessarily-likeminded listener to read between the lines with baseline assumptions that aren't shared.

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1 minute ago, jobarules said:
7 minutes ago, Sea Duck said:

Minneapolis is not Washington D.C.

This is how the Capitol Police respond when black people protest at the capital.

OK Lebron

One picture doesnt tell the story or convince me of anything.

Wow, man. "Lebron", really? Someone doesn't agree with one particular hot take and you start making assumptions about them? What's the point of engaging in an honest discussion with you if you're just going to call people names?

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Articles like this are what cause the divide in this country. The media is a HUGE part of the blame.

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/blm-protests-us-capitol-siege-photos-difference-police-response/

They are showing all the contrary pictures from the summer and the Capitol. They are not showing any pics of the summer destruction. Nor are they showing any pics of the dozens of people arrested and tear gassed (or shot) as the Captiol. Disgraceful. You can spin the story anyway you like. The media spins it their way.

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1 minute ago, Sea Duck said:

Wow, man. "Lebron", really? Someone doesn't agree with one particular hot take and you start making assumptions about them? What's the point of engaging in an honest discussion with you if you're just going to call people names?

Calling you LeBron is calling someone names? 

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5 minutes ago, Doug B said:

Are these instances meant to be exculpatory for those who stormed the Capitol? If not ... what's the point of bringing the summer riots up over and over and over again?

Because people like to downplay or look the other way at political violence committed by their tribe.  And then they wonder how the other tribe got to be so evil.

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6 minutes ago, Doug B said:

Are these instances meant to be exculpatory for those who stormed the Capitol? If not ... what's the point of bringing the summer riots up over and over and over again?

Tons of people in the media and sports world are.

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2 minutes ago, tri-man 47 said:

Thaaat looks like the Trump contingent ready to go out and address the crowd at the rally ...prior to the riot.

Yeah that's what seems to be on those monitors. 

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14 minutes ago, Sea Duck said:

Minneapolis is not Washington D.C.

This is how the Capitol Police respond when black people protest at the capital.

con·text

/ˈkäntekst/

Learn to pronounce

noun

the circumstances that form the setting for an event, statement, or idea, and in terms of which it can be fully understood and assessed

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Two interesting aspects to this article on CNN.  First is the article itself and the related 'sweeping and vacuuming' video link.  The article is very touching about the nature of the black workers, nobly and calmly cleaning up so Congress could get back to work.

Second is in the thread below the video link ...the exchange between AOC and Ted Cruz.  She has called him out for fundraising after the riot started; he called her a liar; she responds with a link to his fundraising appeal that went out two hours after the chaos started.  :popcorn: 

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Has anyone put together a minute by minute account of what transpired at the Capitol?  I'd be interested to know how close the folks outside the chamber door came to the VP.  Was he long gone?  I imagine that's the case, because I've got to think if those protesters got anywhere close to the VP, they would have been taken out.

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2 minutes ago, bigbottom said:

Has anyone put together a minute by minute account of what transpired at the Capitol?  I'd be interested to know how close the folks outside the chamber door came to the VP.  Was he long gone?  I imagine that's the case, because I've got to think if those protesters got anywhere close to the VP, they would have been taken out.

Not just the VP, but the entire Presidential line of succession down to the Sec. of State.

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4 minutes ago, tri-man 47 said:

Two interesting aspects to this article on CNN.  First is the article itself and the related 'sweeping and vacuuming' video link.  The article is very touching about the nature of the black workers, nobly and calmly cleaning up so Congress could get back to work.

Second is in the thread below the video link ...the exchange between AOC and Ted Cruz.  She has called him out for fundraising after the riot started; he called her a liar; she responds with a link to his fundraising appeal that went out two hours after the chaos started.  :popcorn: 

More race-hustling by CNN.  Red-meat for the choir, I guess.  Standard operating procedure.

I'm sure they don't have any bleeding-heart stories about white workers cleaning up after the Antifa/BLM riots, do they?

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1 minute ago, Amused to Death said:

Not just the VP, but the entire Presidential line of succession down to the Sec. of State.

Yeah, these folks making it to Nancy Pelosi's office is scary stuff.  I'm glad she didn't retreat there to hide.

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4 minutes ago, IvanKaramazov said:

Because people like to downplay or look the other way at political violence committed by their tribe.  And then they wonder how the other tribe got to be so evil.

I share your (apparent) issue with the general iteration of socio-political animus. At the same time, the actors in the Capitol incursion have to be held accountable for their behavior -- can they invoke "the summer riots!" and credibly ask a judge for leniency?

IOW -- your stance works better for a top-of-the-mountain view of the ills of American society as they exists in 2021. Zooming down to the level of the individuals storming the Capitol, though, makes it clear a healthy number of people need to be brought to justice.

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1 minute ago, BladeRunner said:

More race-hustling by CNN.  Red-meat for the choir, I guess.  Standard operating procedure.

I'm sure they don't have any bleeding-heart stories about white workers cleaning up after the Antifa/BLM riots, do they?

No, they don't.  But then again, we as a nation are not dealing with two centuries of systemic racism against whites, are we?

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9 minutes ago, HellToupee said:
25 minutes ago, Sea Duck said:

Minneapolis is not Washington D.C.

This is how the Capitol Police respond when black people protest at the capital.

con·text

/ˈkäntekst/

Learn to pronounce

noun

the circumstances that form the setting for an event, statement, or idea, and in terms of which it can be fully understood and assessed

Careful where you swing that -- invoking "context" leaves a big opening for someone to excuse the most damaging of the summer riots ("righteous" context vs. the logical alternative).

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Just now, tri-man 47 said:

No, they don't.  But then again, we as a nation are not dealing with two centuries of systemic racism against whites, are we?

Doesn't matter.  You don't fight racism with even MORE racism.

It's this type of BS false narrative from CNN and others that keeps the race-hustling $$$$$ coming in.

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1 minute ago, Rich Conway said:
20 minutes ago, The General said:

That seems disingenuous.  Best I can tell, in part because of the "Gloria" song playing, that entire sequence is from before Trump even spoke to the crowd.  It is not "Trump and family watching the riot".

Whatever actually happened, the Trump team needs to hire a new ####ign DJ. My god they have the worst music

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Just now, the moops said:

Whatever actually happened, the Trump team needs to hire a new ####ign DJ. My god they have the worst music

Seemed to me that the DJ was trolling Trump with most of the selections.  If I were Trump (and I understood or listened to the lyrics of most of the songs), I'd be furious.

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4 minutes ago, Rich Conway said:

That seems disingenuous.  Best I can tell, in part because of the "Gloria" song playing, that entire sequence is from before Trump even spoke to the crowd.  It is not "Trump and family watching the riot".

Until I hear or see more I'd have to agree. It really does look like them preparing for Trump to go on and "rally" the crowd at the Save America rally he did that morning. 

They were, of course, maskless and talking about "fighting" so it's not like it wasn't still embrassing to watch, but I am not finding at the moment that it's evidence that they were celebrating the rioting. 

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1 minute ago, the moops said:

Whatever actually happened, the Trump team needs to hire a new ####ign DJ. My god they have the worst music

The DJ playing Pink Floyd's "Brain Damage" while reporters are talking to Trump supporters was the height of trolling.

"The lunatics are on the grass"

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2 minutes ago, the moops said:

Whatever actually happened, the Trump team needs to hire a new ####ign DJ. My god they have the worst music

Macho Man was a stellar selection.

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Just now, Rich Conway said:

That seems disingenuous.  Best I can tell, in part because of the "Gloria" song playing, that entire sequence is from before Trump even spoke to the crowd.  It is not "Trump and family watching the riot".

Agreed.  Trump likely retreated to his bunker as soon as the violence started.  The video is valuable in that it supports the Trump crew's desire to incite the crowd to violence.  

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1 minute ago, bigbottom said:

Macho Man was a stellar selection.

Body, body wanna feel my body
Body, baby, such a thrill, my body
Body, wanna touch my body
Body, baby, it's too much, my body
Body, check it out, my body, body
Baby, don't you doubt, my body
Body, talking about my body, body
Baby, checking out my body

Listen here

Every man wants to be a macho man
To have the kind of body always in demand
Joggin' in the mornings, go man go
Workouts in the health spa, muscles grow
You can best believe me
He's a macho man
Glad he took you down with anyone you can
Hey, hey, hey, hey, hey

Macho, macho man (macho man)
I gotta be a macho man
Macho, macho man
I gotta be a macho

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4 minutes ago, tri-man 47 said:
7 minutes ago, BladeRunner said:

More race-hustling by CNN.  Red-meat for the choir, I guess.  Standard operating procedure.

I'm sure they don't have any bleeding-heart stories about white workers cleaning up after the Antifa/BLM riots, do they?

No, they don't.  But then again, we as a nation are not dealing with two centuries of systemic racism against whites, are we?

Same issue as the Capitol invaders: In the instance that a summer rioter is convicted of arson, that rioter doesn't get to credibly invoke "two centuries of systemic racism!" and have that considered in his sentencing hearing. Righteous cause notwithstanding ... the arsonist must do the time.

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4 minutes ago, the moops said:

Whatever actually happened, the Trump team needs to hire a new ####ign DJ. My god they have the worst music

I think the DJ was trolling them

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4 minutes ago, BladeRunner said:

Doesn't matter.  You don't fight racism with even MORE racism.

It's this type of BS false narrative from CNN and others that keeps the race-hustling $$$$$ coming in.

If we were on a dinner date, this is where I'd be like "waiter ...check, please?"

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6 minutes ago, Mookie said:

Agreed.  Trump likely retreated to his bunker as soon as the violence started.  The video is valuable in that it supports the Trump crew's desire to incite the crowd to violence.  

Rumors I heard is that after it turned violent he was taken to Camp David. 

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3 minutes ago, tri-man 47 said:

If we were on a dinner date, this is where I'd be like "waiter ...check, please?"

This is why we can't have honest discussions - because you don't want them.  I understand that the truth hurts but that doesn't mean we shouldn't talk about it.

Why is this so hard for everyone?

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1 minute ago, jobarules said:

CNN has the word "riot" littered all over their page right now and rightfully so!

However, during the summer, they called them protests and never once used the term riot.

This take is so wrong that it undermines whatever point you were making previously.

Seattle

Portland

Minneapolis

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Just to address the "DJ trolling" comments, by my count, the DJ played all of the following at one point or another prior to Trump's address of the crowd.

* Titanic theme song - Self-explanatory
* Beat It - Self-explanatory
* Billie Jean - "But the kid is not my son..."
* Fortunate Son - Self-explanatory
* Macho Man
* Tiny Dancer
* Gloria - "Was it something that he said, Are the voices in your head..."
* Don't Stop Believing
* Brain Damage - "The lunatics are on the grass"

That is an incomplete list, it is only the ones I heard.

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1 minute ago, Rich Conway said:

Just to address the "DJ trolling" comments, by my count, the DJ played all of the following at one point or another prior to Trump's address of the crowd.

* Titanic theme song - Self-explanatory
* Beat It - Self-explanatory
* Billie Jean - "But the kid is not my son..."
* Fortunate Son - Self-explanatory
* Macho Man
* Tiny Dancer
* Gloria - "Was it something that he said, Are the voices in your head..."
* Don't Stop Believing
* Brain Damage - "The lunatics are on the grass"

That is an incomplete list, it is only the ones I heard.

Elton John’s Funeral for a Friend 

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When some of these rioters go on trial, I'm wondering if we hear some of these lines:  "I was only doing what the President directed me to do.  He told me on the stage to take back our country, to Stop the Steal.  How can I be guilty of doing what the President of the United States of America directed me to do?"

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2 minutes ago, BladeRunner said:

This is why we can't have honest discussions - because you don't want them.  I understand that the truth hurts but that doesn't mean we shouldn't talk about it.

Why is this so hard for everyone?

@BladeRunner, we didn't have an honest discussion.  I shared some information, and you twice came at it hard from 180 degrees the other direction.  As you say here, "the truth hurts," meaning you feel you've got the truth and anyone else (like me) is wrong.  So we're not going to make any headway ...there's not going to be a reasonable give and take of ideas.  Anything further in our little exchange would be a waste of our (and the thread's) time.

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